gee I wonder why shermans had to operate in groups and with an anti-tank company in tow in case they found a real tank. almost like they fucking sucked at doing their job!
>gee I wonder why shermans had to operate in groups
the smallest tactical formation was a platoon of 5 tanks
no one is sending out just 1 sherman at a time to deal with threats
though it was common to split it into two sections of 3:2 such as for infantry support, they still kept within radio shot of their platoon commander
>and with an anti-tank company in tow in case they found a real tank
anti-tank companies were preferred for defeating enemy tanks
but tank companies could and did fight enemy tanks
Less because they had to and more so because they could afford to. Germans could only get a few tanks to an engagement and only fire a few artillery shells while complaining that the Americans could send barrages at single machine gun nests.
>gee I wonder why infantrymen had to operate in groups with machine gun and mortar teams attached. almost like they fucking sucked at doing their job!
Fucking room temperature IQ take
If you can do so why would you not? You are acting like the Germans didn’t do exactly this earlier in the war. Rommel built his name in Africa on his use of anti tank guns and concentrated armoured offensives. Don’t be salty because your favourite meme country fell off hard after 43
Sherman defenders get their "facts" from a yt shill so fuck off
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Sherman defenders get their "facts" from a yt shill so fuck off
you mean the chieftain? an actual TC and a Lt Colonel in an armored division?
or actual historians that predate belton coopers books like HP hunnicutt or stephen zaloga who have been appraising the M4 sherman very well since the 1970s
or for a fresh perspective, dmitri loza, a soviet tanker who used a lend-lease M4 sherman and had a lot of good things to say about
and who served in heavy fighting in hungary and the ukraine against panthers and tigers
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Sherman defenders get their "facts" from a yt shill so fuck off
you mean the chieftain? an actual TC and a Lt Colonel in an armored division?
or actual historians that predate belton coopers books like HP hunnicutt or stephen zaloga who have been appraising the M4 sherman very well since the 1970s
or for a fresh perspective, dmitri loza, a soviet tanker who used a lend-lease M4 sherman and had a lot of good things to say about
and who served in heavy fighting in hungary and the ukraine against panthers and tigers
>this guy said it so it's correct, though.
Appeal to authority is not a valid reasoning, though.
And insofar, wehrboos have made more valid and rational argument than Shermanophiles, though.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Appeal to authority is not a valid reasoning, though.
appeal to authority is a specific type of fallacy that refers to authorities not qualified to weight in on the matter
ie. albert einsteins opinion on god,
an authority who actually has something to say on the matter, like an actual tanker or a military historian, is a perfectly valid source
which is why you are allowed to quote authorities in debate
ie. albert einsteins opinion on general relativity
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Are you a 15 year old who just heard about argumentation fouls? Appeal to authority would be if you claimed M4 was the best because Taylor Swift said so
>ten M4s for a Tiger II >150 tiger IIs at the ardennes, of which all were lost during the fighting >800 allied tanks lost to all causes in the same battle
only way for the tiger II to get 10 kills for each loss is if all the panthers and panzer IVs managed to generate -700 kills
>five M4s for a Tiger I >meanhwile another five Tiger Is break down permanently >ten M4s for a Tiger II
Bitch, one fucking M8 Greyhound is enough to kill a Tiger II.
gee I wonder why shermans had to operate in groups and with an anti-tank company in tow in case they found a real tank. almost like they fucking sucked at doing their job!
>gee I wonder why shermans had to operate in groups
That'd be because that's how competent tank tactics work in an army that's got its shit together.
I'm sorry to ruin your meme but there is 0 hard evidence this actually happened and it's physically impossible for the 37mm to actually penetrate the Tiger 2 at any distance.
>muh physicaly impossible
LMAO. German tanks got wrecked by "physically impossible" shots left, right and center in the late war because their on-paper stats weren't worth shit in reality.
Invented by confirmation bias. It was US doctrine that called for a platoon of tanks to perform any task. Germans simply could not achieve this late war due to their defensive doctrines, limited fuel availability and less armour overall to field.
I just found a pick of a knocked out KT. What killed it doesn't matter all that much because discussion of one tank versus another are stupid. Warfare is about directing effective fires on target. The Allies had many weapons on hand that could kill a KT.
pound for pound tigers smack the m4s around. Burgers have this weird cope where they refuse to acknowledge their primary contribution in the war was invulnerable factory spam behind the safety of giant oceans. So they like to pretend their machinery was the best at everything with them fighting the biggest hardest battles against overwhelming odds. When aside from being objectively false it really did not matter. As WW2 was still more of a industrial quantity spam war. Quality like germans liked to rely on started really blowing up in power level only at the advent of widespread electronics as is demonstrated right now in ukraine
It's not "weird cope". It's knowing that the Sherman was good enough to deal with 99% of anything the germans could field, and for the other 1% they just needed more time and coordination.
The Allies simply didn't saw a reason to field heavier tanks. Most Tigers and Panthers which didn't broke down were destroyed by Shermans.
The Pershing could have been ready by 1943 but they had no rush to field it simply because tank duels were a rarity just they're today.
If anything the real cope is pretending that more Tigers could have made any difference, when the US would have countered them just as easily.
>It's knowing that the Sherman was good enough to deal with 99% of anything the germans could field, and for the other 1% they just needed more time and coordination.
There's that quote from a German tank officer saying that one German tank was worth 3 American ones...but the Americans always brought 4.
>where they refuse to acknowledge their primary contribution in the war was invulnerable factory spam behind the safety of giant oceans
You forgot the other major contribution: Due to being behind the safety of giant oceans, they had to make tanks that were ludicrously reliable and maintainable, since it all had to be done at the front. You can't quickly ship a Sherman back to the factory for repairs. I'm not sure Germany could ever have won the war, but the solution certainly wasn't "make even more complicated tanks that break even more easily because muh armor"
t. German
>keeping their people alive was what mattered most
and that's why they gave them the six man coffin and the tommy cooker? they did not give a shit about their crews man
>muh tommy cooker
Always fun to read this fanfiction over what was statistically the single most survivable tank in the war once crews actually obeyed correct ammo storage procedures.
>six man coffin and the tommy cooker >Literally parroting cope written by some moron trying to defend german tank decisions.
Fuck off to the cave you crawled from, you pseudo-Pierre Sprey of tanks.
germans have this weird cope where they lost the fucking war and slavboos have this weird cope where they pretend they were more than meat to fill out lend lease >Quality like germans liked to rely on started really blowing up in power level only at the advent of widespread electronics
Even in your own post you admit the Tiger II was a big dumb iron box with thick armor and few other redeeming features
Porsche and Henschel were employing slave labourers in their design teams? Man, things must have been truly desperate. I never knew they designed it poorly on purpose.
Designs should reflect REALITY. If your labor sucks, build parts they can't fuck up while having critical systems assembled and QCed by loyalists.
There is no excuse for failure, in the German case failure to embrace modern mass production and not squander very limited funds on wanking. Its worshippers tend to excuse every fuckup (except lack of strategic bombers which they just ignore).
The real driver of Wherboos is the same as the SA before they were rightly disposed of, homosexuality. If Russia had Hugo Boss drip and NatSoc iconography then more autspergic social lepers would adore them.
Even if your army has the most effective gun in the world, if you don't have the logistics nor manufacturing to ensure you have enough and can keep them in working order, it's a shit gun.
>but no way the M4 can take out a Tiger II.
worse
most tiger IIs were destroyed by infantry with bazookas
the M4s simply learned to reverse and draw out the king tigers advance until they broke down, putting their advantage in reliability into play
king tigers ended up performing poorly in the ardennes where allied artillery could separate them from their infantry and they were either abandoned or knocked out by bazookas
>5:5 trade ratio against Nork T-34-85 in Korea despite all the "cool" features like stabilizer, """"reliability"""", allied air superiority, better optics, etc.
Lol
America is nothing without air power.
I'm sorry to ruin your meme but there is 0 hard evidence this actually happened and it's physically impossible for the 37mm to actually penetrate the Tiger 2 at any distance.
Having the best tank doesn't matter if you can't make enough to meet demand while not being able to ship them anywhere. The M4 was quick and easy to produce, easy to ship, and did its job better than other medium tanks.
No shit it struggles when fighting a heavy tank. Its a medium tank. But that doesn't matter when the vast majority of Shermans never even encountered a Tiger II. For the tiny minority of times they did, the allies could use artillery, aircraft, AT rockets, tank destroyers, or their own heavy tanks to kill them.
From a strategic perspective, the Sherman really was the best tank of WW2.
Pretty much. No matter how good your tank's (claimed) capabilities are, that doesn't help you if you can't make a significant enough number
When you figure out a way for the Greyhound to get a good angle to fire at the spots where the engine compartment's top armor is down to <10mm, without requiring the Tiger to tip over on its side, let me know.
Picrel specifically prevents that exact thing from happening but you get an A for effort.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>paper thin metal sheeting stops anti tank rounds
You aren't even trying, are you?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>80mm thick curved armored plate >paper thin metal sheeting
Pick one.
The 37mm penetration values peak slightly under 80mm at the muzzle with a direct 90° impact btw.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
And held on by a few bolts that will sheer off with glancing hit. Again, you aren't even trying, are you?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yes I'm sure your dinky ass 37mm projectile will shear (not sheer) off six hardened bolts, so that you can put the next one in the same exact spot and have it go through the exhaust into the engine, Mr. "it was real in my mind."
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I mean if it’s late war, then German quality control is absolute shit. Could it be possible that the Tiger II would’ve been able to take the shot on paper, but in reality because it had some defect like brittle steel or whatever it was knocked out?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The only evidence German steel is bad came from the Bolsheviks
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Thick armor (+5cm) is hard to heat treat in a hurry like germans. Even making it softer like germans, it still can be brittle both in prototypes/post war production and real life tanks knocked out (brittle failure) with american's 75mm.
It's hard to make non brittle (in winter) and hard enough steel without nickel and germans rushed the heat treatment, the steel itself was good iirc.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Brittleness is a major concern when getting hit by large (>70mm) projectiles and HE.
37mm just isn't doing shit against the Tiger II regardless of where it hits or how poor the QC of later war cats got.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Cool story, bro. 37mm APCR at clsoe distance agianst brittle and overhardened armor means your engine comnaprtment now has spall fragments flying around everywhere.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
May I see it
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
LMAO. Allied tests showed that german tank steel had issues with being overhardened and brittle even on their early-war tanks, and it only got worse as the war progressed.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The only evidence German steel is bad came from the Bolsheviks
>The Greyhound shot through the exhaust pipes into the engine.
I have it on good authority via my crackpipe, that what actually happened was the M8 dropped off two skirmishers with a bunch of bananas, and while the M8 distracted the Tiger crew, the skirmishers stuffed the exhaust pipes full of bananas.
They then oiled the upper deck of the tank so when the crew tried to escape they all fell down in a most clownish manner.
General Patton was said to have witnessed the entire event and called it "Fuckin' Hilarious", and awarded the M8 crew the "Order of the Three Stooges" as a result.
Steel quality dropped off to near soviet levels late war. You can see pictures of panthers that crack right down the middle against guns that should have no realistic chance of doing so.
*Peppers Tiger II with M48 HE and watches the armor plates buckle and crack. Enemy crew abandons vehicle, bleeding from the ears and heads concussed, waving a makeshift white flag.*
American equipment focused on the qualities of ease of transport and maintenance. The US easily had the capacity to build heavy tanks, the fact they did not in a serious way should clue you in on what the findings were: heavy tanks were more trouble than they were worth at that time.
Even with the threat of German heavy tanks and TDs. There were other ways to bypass or defeat the threat.
Having the best tank doesn't matter if you can't make enough to meet demand while not being able to ship them anywhere. The M4 was quick and easy to produce, easy to ship, and did its job better than other medium tanks.
No shit it struggles when fighting a heavy tank. Its a medium tank. But that doesn't matter when the vast majority of Shermans never even encountered a Tiger II. For the tiny minority of times they did, the allies could use artillery, aircraft, AT rockets, tank destroyers, or their own heavy tanks to kill them.
From a strategic perspective, the Sherman really was the best tank of WW2.
>For the tiny minority of times they did, the allies could use artillery, aircraft, AT rockets, tank destroyers, or their own heavy tanks to kill them.
This. After Normandy, the Allies dominated the skies so hard and refined artillery so much, that a soldier on the front line could easily call strikes on any location he wanted. Meanwhile German artillery and air power were afraid of doing anything that might risk them getting discovered and blasted out of existence.
Just to be clear, it wasn't quite that simple, otherwise no American tank would ever have needed to engage a target in the first place. It's not like modern war where American soldiers just go "ok can one of the lingering A-10s please BRRRRTTTTTT these 3 enemy combatants?"
It would have to be bigger tactical targets
>The entire war was a triumph of American development and logistics
There was ONE factory in the US that could turn out a B24 heavy bomber EVERY HOUR. In one year of the war, the US built more tanks than Germany did in the entire war. The US could have had shitty equipment and turned out shitty soldiers, and tge Axis still couldnt have competed with that. And the US gear varied from top-notch to entirely-servicable, and US soldiers were as good as anyone else's.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Here's a comparison of ship/plane production between Japan and the USA that I love
www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
>But that doesn't matter when the vast majority of Shermans never even encountered a Tiger II.
What's kinda funny about people who endlessly scrutinize the Sherman's performance against a tank it rarely ever actually engaged is they almost completely ignore what the Sherman actually fought the most. Predominantly non-motorized infantry divisions who didn't have organic tank units.
The US deciding to spam a medium tank that could be built and shipped enmass didn't just mean they outnumbered Tigers in tank battles. It also meant they had far more tanks free to be assigned to provide armor support for US Infantry divisions fighting their mostly non-motorized German counter parts. A heavier American tank designed to fight Tigers means you have less tanks supporting the infantry.
>The Greyhound shot through the exhaust pipes into the engine.
I have it on good authority via my crackpipe, that what actually happened was the M8 dropped off two skirmishers with a bunch of bananas, and while the M8 distracted the Tiger crew, the skirmishers stuffed the exhaust pipes full of bananas.
They then oiled the upper deck of the tank so when the crew tried to escape they all fell down in a most clownish manner.
General Patton was said to have witnessed the entire event and called it "Fuckin' Hilarious", and awarded the M8 crew the "Order of the Three Stooges" as a result.
It's pretty sad when your tank is so immobile, never has any support, and the exhaust is so badly designed that you literally need to put an armor plate over it lel
D-Day on the beaches was essentially a human wave tactic.
I mean, they genuienly thought they wouldn't be walking into much resistence and had a whole support network behind them, plus planned for armor, etc but still. it was just men running up a beach to an objective
not a blyatskrieg but still a "human wave" tactic
And while the point i am making is that America was much more 'humane' about their human wave tactics, remember: omaha was a fucking disaster but they still kept cramming american joes on the beach wave after wave
>D-Day on the beaches was essentially a human wave tactic.
No the fuck it wasn't. You are an idiot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_gunfire_support#World_War_II
It wasn't like that at all. The entire damn reason the Allies landed at Normandy was because that was where they (correctly) figured the German coastal defenses were the weakest.
Not to mention, the sheer scale of setup they went through. Turning an entire German spy ring into double agents to trick the Germans into thinking the landings would be at Calais. Massive preparatory naval and aerial bombardments and airborne operations to soften and dismantle defenses. D-Day was anything but a "lol human wave" operation.
4 out of the 5 beaches had minimal resistance upon hitting the beaches, and only ran into issues as they pressed further inland. Omaha was the only beach where the Allies faced stiff resistance, combined with a whole host unforeseen setbacks that effectively sabotaged the landings before they even began.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Wehraboos consider outnumbering the enemy to be “human waves” regardless of the tactics involved.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
More like shermanfags cannot comprehend the idea of a 1v1 tank comparison and have to bring in extraneous bullshit to make their shit heap look good at all
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>More like wehraboos cannot comprehend the idea of a 1v1 tank comparisons being retarded and useless in real war involving logistic and strategic factors and have to bring in extraneous bullshit to make their shit heap look good at all
FTFY
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Omaha was the only beach where the Allies faced stiff resistance
Only because the preparatory shelling and the landings were botched. They still seized it before the day ended.
>Learn about Peleliu
US suffered 1200 deaths in the campaign
the japanese 12,000
and while the initial barrage failed due to an inability to confirm neutralized targets, naval gunnery was used extensively throughout the fighting
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
As I said "learn". 1st Marine Division was made combat ineffective thanks to head on assaults against Jap positions. US didn't adapt to Nip defense in depth tactics and still tried to brute force their way in. Their only saving grace was Japanese inability to supply and reinforce their island garrisons. Oh yeah and can add Iwo Jima to the list.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it was literally not a human wave assault, but a coordinated assault between infantry and naval gunnery
It's such a weird type of double-think >Germans made the best tank
Oh so they won the war then? >no they lost to the USA
Okay so American tanks were better >nooooo it doesn't count they just built more
Why didn't Germany build more of theirs? >they couldn't
So they picked the wrong tanks to build if they couldn't produce enough of them
If Germany had built more tanks instead of fewer large tanks they'd just have run out of fuel faster. WW2 was a strategic defeat, not a wunderwaffe competition.
>If Germany had built more tanks instead of fewer large tanks they'd just have run out of fuel faster.
Run out of fuel doing what? Waiting for the Allies to come to them?
tanks are maneuver warfare elements, if you're reduced to digging your supertanks into static Atlantic Wall defensive positions you've already lost, also the entire eastern front you dumb moron
So you build these thousands of tanks just for them to sit there and achieve nothing of note besides being worse and more expensive versions of gun emplacements without power because you can’t charge the battery’s.
So you build these thousands of tanks just for them to sit there and achieve nothing of note besides being worse and more expensive versions of gun emplacements without power because you can’t charge the battery’s.
IIRC the swedes bought a Königstiger from the french and tested various foreign and domestic tank cannons on it, including a M4A3(76)W, and concluded that the 76mm could misson kill a Königstiger
Both German and Russian crews preferred M4s when available through capture or lend lease respectively.
Just because it was mass produced doesn't mean it was shit.
The M4 excelled at reliability and crew survivability, and it could handle like 95% of what was thrown at it, and it could be massed produced. That’s a pretty fucking good tank. Compare that to the Tiger, which there was hardly any of, and which would break down before it reached the front line, and which was too slow to be used for many tasks.
It would have been so epic to see equal matches between the Pershings and Tigers in France. Such a shame we were robbed of kino by ordnance board hacks.
IDK Anon, looks like they didn't have that hard a time killing them.
>five M4s for a Tiger I
>ten M4s for a Tiger II
It's a good trade. Without the Eastern front the war would have gone on for decades at that rate.
>five M4s for a Tiger I
this was a meme born out of Shermans operating in squadrons while Tigers were many times alone with no support.
gee I wonder why shermans had to operate in groups and with an anti-tank company in tow in case they found a real tank. almost like they fucking sucked at doing their job!
>gee I wonder why shermans had to operate in groups
the smallest tactical formation was a platoon of 5 tanks
no one is sending out just 1 sherman at a time to deal with threats
though it was common to split it into two sections of 3:2 such as for infantry support, they still kept within radio shot of their platoon commander
>and with an anti-tank company in tow in case they found a real tank
anti-tank companies were preferred for defeating enemy tanks
but tank companies could and did fight enemy tanks
>Get the other Shermans to kill tanks so the infantry support Shermans can do their job
>Hurr da Sherman musta sucked!
Less because they had to and more so because they could afford to. Germans could only get a few tanks to an engagement and only fire a few artillery shells while complaining that the Americans could send barrages at single machine gun nests.
its insane opinions like these still exist in 2023
>gee I wonder why infantrymen had to operate in groups with machine gun and mortar teams attached. almost like they fucking sucked at doing their job!
Fucking room temperature IQ take
If you can do so why would you not? You are acting like the Germans didn’t do exactly this earlier in the war. Rommel built his name in Africa on his use of anti tank guns and concentrated armoured offensives. Don’t be salty because your favourite meme country fell off hard after 43
Yet, you’re not posting in german right now, curious
le "i only know history through HOI4" 18 year old map painter face
Sherman defenders get their "facts" from a yt shill so fuck off
>Sherman defenders get their "facts" from a yt shill so fuck off
you mean the chieftain? an actual TC and a Lt Colonel in an armored division?
or actual historians that predate belton coopers books like HP hunnicutt or stephen zaloga who have been appraising the M4 sherman very well since the 1970s
or for a fresh perspective, dmitri loza, a soviet tanker who used a lend-lease M4 sherman and had a lot of good things to say about
and who served in heavy fighting in hungary and the ukraine against panthers and tigers
>this guy said it so it's correct, though.
Appeal to authority is not a valid reasoning, though.
And insofar, wehrboos have made more valid and rational argument than Shermanophiles, though.
>Appeal to authority is not a valid reasoning, though.
appeal to authority is a specific type of fallacy that refers to authorities not qualified to weight in on the matter
ie. albert einsteins opinion on god,
an authority who actually has something to say on the matter, like an actual tanker or a military historian, is a perfectly valid source
which is why you are allowed to quote authorities in debate
ie. albert einsteins opinion on general relativity
Are you a 15 year old who just heard about argumentation fouls? Appeal to authority would be if you claimed M4 was the best because Taylor Swift said so
fucking moron
don't talk about history ever again
Because you don't go out alone like a fucking retard!
lol get mad at the meta all you want, scrub, dont change the meta.
>ten M4s for a Tiger II
>150 tiger IIs at the ardennes, of which all were lost during the fighting
>800 allied tanks lost to all causes in the same battle
only way for the tiger II to get 10 kills for each loss is if all the panthers and panzer IVs managed to generate -700 kills
>five M4s for a Tiger I
>meanhwile another five Tiger Is break down permanently
>ten M4s for a Tiger II
Bitch, one fucking M8 Greyhound is enough to kill a Tiger II.
>gee I wonder why shermans had to operate in groups
That'd be because that's how competent tank tactics work in an army that's got its shit together.
>muh physicaly impossible
LMAO. German tanks got wrecked by "physically impossible" shots left, right and center in the late war because their on-paper stats weren't worth shit in reality.
Invented by confirmation bias. It was US doctrine that called for a platoon of tanks to perform any task. Germans simply could not achieve this late war due to their defensive doctrines, limited fuel availability and less armour overall to field.
I thought picrel was an engagement against M36 Jacksons
I just found a pick of a knocked out KT. What killed it doesn't matter all that much because discussion of one tank versus another are stupid. Warfare is about directing effective fires on target. The Allies had many weapons on hand that could kill a KT.
It's unnecessary, the Tiger breaks by its own.
People say India superpower by 2030 but they can't even use a toilet.
pound for pound tigers smack the m4s around. Burgers have this weird cope where they refuse to acknowledge their primary contribution in the war was invulnerable factory spam behind the safety of giant oceans. So they like to pretend their machinery was the best at everything with them fighting the biggest hardest battles against overwhelming odds. When aside from being objectively false it really did not matter. As WW2 was still more of a industrial quantity spam war. Quality like germans liked to rely on started really blowing up in power level only at the advent of widespread electronics as is demonstrated right now in ukraine
Be a shame if someone had WP shot right next to the air intake for crew compartment
It's not "weird cope". It's knowing that the Sherman was good enough to deal with 99% of anything the germans could field, and for the other 1% they just needed more time and coordination.
The Allies simply didn't saw a reason to field heavier tanks. Most Tigers and Panthers which didn't broke down were destroyed by Shermans.
The Pershing could have been ready by 1943 but they had no rush to field it simply because tank duels were a rarity just they're today.
If anything the real cope is pretending that more Tigers could have made any difference, when the US would have countered them just as easily.
>It's knowing that the Sherman was good enough to deal with 99% of anything the germans could field, and for the other 1% they just needed more time and coordination.
There's that quote from a German tank officer saying that one German tank was worth 3 American ones...but the Americans always brought 4.
>you only won cause you were better and we were shit
>Quality like germans liked to rely on
>spur cut final drive lasting around 150km
>where they refuse to acknowledge their primary contribution in the war was invulnerable factory spam behind the safety of giant oceans
You forgot the other major contribution: Due to being behind the safety of giant oceans, they had to make tanks that were ludicrously reliable and maintainable, since it all had to be done at the front. You can't quickly ship a Sherman back to the factory for repairs. I'm not sure Germany could ever have won the war, but the solution certainly wasn't "make even more complicated tanks that break even more easily because muh armor"
t. German
>muh oceans
Americans weren't retarded and realized keeping their people alive was what mattered most
>keeping their people alive was what mattered most
and that's why they gave them the six man coffin and the tommy cooker? they did not give a shit about their crews man
>and that's why they gave them the six man coffin and the tommy cooker
Look up the actual casualty rates of Sherman crews and compare them to their contemporaries in other countries.
You're in for a surprise.
>muh tommy cooker
Always fun to read this fanfiction over what was statistically the single most survivable tank in the war once crews actually obeyed correct ammo storage procedures.
How those non spring loaded hatches looking my g
>six man coffin and the tommy cooker
>Literally parroting cope written by some moron trying to defend german tank decisions.
Fuck off to the cave you crawled from, you pseudo-Pierre Sprey of tanks.
The M4 Sherman was objectively the best tank of the war and was the sole reason the Germans were driven out of Africa. You are a fool.
>Burgers have this weird cope where they refuse to acknowledge-
if this aint projection I don't what is
t. not a burger
7 (You)'s, good work, heres an 8th
germans have this weird cope where they lost the fucking war and slavboos have this weird cope where they pretend they were more than meat to fill out lend lease
>Quality like germans liked to rely on started really blowing up in power level only at the advent of widespread electronics
Even in your own post you admit the Tiger II was a big dumb iron box with thick armor and few other redeeming features
>Quality like germans liked to rely on
Just not in the little, inconsequential things, like their engines, transmission and drivetrain.
That was because the slave labourers sabotaged things in production
"Built by slave labor in underground camps with questionable metallurgy in the dying days of the Reich" seems like a downside Shermans don't have
Porsche and Henschel were employing slave labourers in their design teams? Man, things must have been truly desperate. I never knew they designed it poorly on purpose.
The design was fine it was the actual manufacturing that caused problems because it was being done by unloyal people
Designs should reflect REALITY. If your labor sucks, build parts they can't fuck up while having critical systems assembled and QCed by loyalists.
There is no excuse for failure, in the German case failure to embrace modern mass production and not squander very limited funds on wanking. Its worshippers tend to excuse every fuckup (except lack of strategic bombers which they just ignore).
The real driver of Wherboos is the same as the SA before they were rightly disposed of, homosexuality. If Russia had Hugo Boss drip and NatSoc iconography then more autspergic social lepers would adore them.
They didn’t know slaves were being used
Even if your army has the most effective gun in the world, if you don't have the logistics nor manufacturing to ensure you have enough and can keep them in working order, it's a shit gun.
Skill issue
>(Bait)
1vs1 vacuum comparisons are pointless
>but no way the M4 can take out a Tiger II.
worse
most tiger IIs were destroyed by infantry with bazookas
the M4s simply learned to reverse and draw out the king tigers advance until they broke down, putting their advantage in reliability into play
king tigers ended up performing poorly in the ardennes where allied artillery could separate them from their infantry and they were either abandoned or knocked out by bazookas
The book that broke PrepHole
read something factual instead
>5:5 trade ratio against Nork T-34-85 in Korea despite all the "cool" features like stabilizer, """"reliability"""", allied air superiority, better optics, etc.
Lol
America is nothing without air power.
>5:5 trade ratio against Nork T-34-85 in Korea
source?
US records show 7 M4s knocked out by T-34s but 24 T-34s knocked out by M4s
Do you really think you'll get a source from someone who said "5:5" instead of "1:1"?
Hi salem
Those are tank v. tank kills not air to mud kills you silly wog.
>literally a biography written by a clueless REMF
>a 70 ton tank is better than a 35 ton tank
Say it ain’t so?
>EZ8
>Firefly
>76mm guns
Etc
>puts on 1mm bigger gun
>smokes your wunderwaffe
wehraboos will never recover
>That's a cool tank you have there. It would be a shame if something were to happen to it.
I'm sorry to ruin your meme but there is 0 hard evidence this actually happened and it's physically impossible for the 37mm to actually penetrate the Tiger 2 at any distance.
PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP GET PENNED GET PENNED GET PENNED
He said Tiger 2
Pretty much. No matter how good your tank's (claimed) capabilities are, that doesn't help you if you can't make a significant enough number
Tigers got penned by aircraft cannon fire
>Tigers got penned by aircraft cannon fire
When you figure out a way for the Greyhound to get a good angle to fire at the spots where the engine compartment's top armor is down to <10mm, without requiring the Tiger to tip over on its side, let me know.
The Greyhound shot through the exhaust pipes into the engine.
Picrel specifically prevents that exact thing from happening but you get an A for effort.
>paper thin metal sheeting stops anti tank rounds
You aren't even trying, are you?
>80mm thick curved armored plate
>paper thin metal sheeting
Pick one.
The 37mm penetration values peak slightly under 80mm at the muzzle with a direct 90° impact btw.
And held on by a few bolts that will sheer off with glancing hit. Again, you aren't even trying, are you?
Yes I'm sure your dinky ass 37mm projectile will shear (not sheer) off six hardened bolts, so that you can put the next one in the same exact spot and have it go through the exhaust into the engine, Mr. "it was real in my mind."
I mean if it’s late war, then German quality control is absolute shit. Could it be possible that the Tiger II would’ve been able to take the shot on paper, but in reality because it had some defect like brittle steel or whatever it was knocked out?
The only evidence German steel is bad came from the Bolsheviks
Thick armor (+5cm) is hard to heat treat in a hurry like germans. Even making it softer like germans, it still can be brittle both in prototypes/post war production and real life tanks knocked out (brittle failure) with american's 75mm.
It's hard to make non brittle (in winter) and hard enough steel without nickel and germans rushed the heat treatment, the steel itself was good iirc.
Brittleness is a major concern when getting hit by large (>70mm) projectiles and HE.
37mm just isn't doing shit against the Tiger II regardless of where it hits or how poor the QC of later war cats got.
Cool story, bro. 37mm APCR at clsoe distance agianst brittle and overhardened armor means your engine comnaprtment now has spall fragments flying around everywhere.
May I see it
LMAO. Allied tests showed that german tank steel had issues with being overhardened and brittle even on their early-war tanks, and it only got worse as the war progressed.
>The only evidence German steel is bad came from the Bolsheviks
>The Greyhound shot through the exhaust pipes into the engine.
I have it on good authority via my crackpipe, that what actually happened was the M8 dropped off two skirmishers with a bunch of bananas, and while the M8 distracted the Tiger crew, the skirmishers stuffed the exhaust pipes full of bananas.
They then oiled the upper deck of the tank so when the crew tried to escape they all fell down in a most clownish manner.
General Patton was said to have witnessed the entire event and called it "Fuckin' Hilarious", and awarded the M8 crew the "Order of the Three Stooges" as a result.
Steel quality dropped off to near soviet levels late war. You can see pictures of panthers that crack right down the middle against guns that should have no realistic chance of doing so.
Fell in love with these things in Company of Heroes ranked matches. Lil lovely shoot and scoot scouts.
*Peppers Tiger II with M48 HE and watches the armor plates buckle and crack. Enemy crew abandons vehicle, bleeding from the ears and heads concussed, waving a makeshift white flag.*
i dunno but
if i gotta choose for a 1:1 fight
i wont take the green turd that has half the weight than its opponent
That's the thing though, you don't get to choose a 1v1 fight.
are you guys italians?
>If I was fighting in WW2 I'd just parachute into Berlin and 1v1 Hitler!
>parachute into Reichstag courtyard
>capture point
>instantly win war
Why wouldn't this work?
Post the rest of your Delicious Brown this instant.
I like the fasces holding her braids in place
dont forget her friend
Hey, Fraulein. How'd you like to get penetrated by my 76mm?
>76mm
Uh, anon... that's 3 inches
I said what I said.
i cant breathe
If you're in a 1:1 fight, you already fucked up, dumbass. War is a team activity.
American equipment focused on the qualities of ease of transport and maintenance. The US easily had the capacity to build heavy tanks, the fact they did not in a serious way should clue you in on what the findings were: heavy tanks were more trouble than they were worth at that time.
Even with the threat of German heavy tanks and TDs. There were other ways to bypass or defeat the threat.
Having the best tank doesn't matter if you can't make enough to meet demand while not being able to ship them anywhere. The M4 was quick and easy to produce, easy to ship, and did its job better than other medium tanks.
No shit it struggles when fighting a heavy tank. Its a medium tank. But that doesn't matter when the vast majority of Shermans never even encountered a Tiger II. For the tiny minority of times they did, the allies could use artillery, aircraft, AT rockets, tank destroyers, or their own heavy tanks to kill them.
From a strategic perspective, the Sherman really was the best tank of WW2.
>For the tiny minority of times they did, the allies could use artillery, aircraft, AT rockets, tank destroyers, or their own heavy tanks to kill them.
This. After Normandy, the Allies dominated the skies so hard and refined artillery so much, that a soldier on the front line could easily call strikes on any location he wanted. Meanwhile German artillery and air power were afraid of doing anything that might risk them getting discovered and blasted out of existence.
Just to be clear, it wasn't quite that simple, otherwise no American tank would ever have needed to engage a target in the first place. It's not like modern war where American soldiers just go "ok can one of the lingering A-10s please BRRRRTTTTTT these 3 enemy combatants?"
It would have to be bigger tactical targets
Still. It was impressive for the time.
Of course. The entire war was a triumph of American development and logistics
>The entire war was a triumph of American development and logistics
There was ONE factory in the US that could turn out a B24 heavy bomber EVERY HOUR. In one year of the war, the US built more tanks than Germany did in the entire war. The US could have had shitty equipment and turned out shitty soldiers, and tge Axis still couldnt have competed with that. And the US gear varied from top-notch to entirely-servicable, and US soldiers were as good as anyone else's.
Here's a comparison of ship/plane production between Japan and the USA that I love
www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
>But that doesn't matter when the vast majority of Shermans never even encountered a Tiger II.
What's kinda funny about people who endlessly scrutinize the Sherman's performance against a tank it rarely ever actually engaged is they almost completely ignore what the Sherman actually fought the most. Predominantly non-motorized infantry divisions who didn't have organic tank units.
The US deciding to spam a medium tank that could be built and shipped enmass didn't just mean they outnumbered Tigers in tank battles. It also meant they had far more tanks free to be assigned to provide armor support for US Infantry divisions fighting their mostly non-motorized German counter parts. A heavier American tank designed to fight Tigers means you have less tanks supporting the infantry.
Kek!
Shermans always operated in groups. German tanks were still vulnerable from the back and sides.
It's pretty sad when your tank is so immobile, never has any support, and the exhaust is so badly designed that you literally need to put an armor plate over it lel
Americans don’t make good tanks they just make lots of bad tanks and then use human wave tactics to win
Lol, the amount of absolute seethe when people (accurately) characterize all Russian tactics ever as zerg waves of retards is incredible.
Both Russians and Americans used human wave tactics
America did not use human wave tactics put down the krokodil Ivan. Not everyone is as retarded as a Russian.
D-Day on the beaches was essentially a human wave tactic.
I mean, they genuienly thought they wouldn't be walking into much resistence and had a whole support network behind them, plus planned for armor, etc but still. it was just men running up a beach to an objective
not a blyatskrieg but still a "human wave" tactic
And while the point i am making is that America was much more 'humane' about their human wave tactics, remember: omaha was a fucking disaster but they still kept cramming american joes on the beach wave after wave
>D-Day on the beaches was essentially a human wave tactic.
No the fuck it wasn't. You are an idiot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_gunfire_support#World_War_II
It wasn't like that at all. The entire damn reason the Allies landed at Normandy was because that was where they (correctly) figured the German coastal defenses were the weakest.
Not to mention, the sheer scale of setup they went through. Turning an entire German spy ring into double agents to trick the Germans into thinking the landings would be at Calais. Massive preparatory naval and aerial bombardments and airborne operations to soften and dismantle defenses. D-Day was anything but a "lol human wave" operation.
4 out of the 5 beaches had minimal resistance upon hitting the beaches, and only ran into issues as they pressed further inland. Omaha was the only beach where the Allies faced stiff resistance, combined with a whole host unforeseen setbacks that effectively sabotaged the landings before they even began.
Wehraboos consider outnumbering the enemy to be “human waves” regardless of the tactics involved.
More like shermanfags cannot comprehend the idea of a 1v1 tank comparison and have to bring in extraneous bullshit to make their shit heap look good at all
>More like wehraboos cannot comprehend the idea of a 1v1 tank comparisons being retarded and useless in real war involving logistic and strategic factors and have to bring in extraneous bullshit to make their shit heap look good at all
FTFY
>Omaha was the only beach where the Allies faced stiff resistance
Only because the preparatory shelling and the landings were botched. They still seized it before the day ended.
>Infantry
>Armor
>Naval gunfire support
>Combat Engineers
>Literal combined arms tactics.
>It was a human wave attack
What did he mean by this?
Learn about Peleliu and Okinawa, doofus
>Learn about Peleliu
US suffered 1200 deaths in the campaign
the japanese 12,000
and while the initial barrage failed due to an inability to confirm neutralized targets, naval gunnery was used extensively throughout the fighting
As I said "learn". 1st Marine Division was made combat ineffective thanks to head on assaults against Jap positions. US didn't adapt to Nip defense in depth tactics and still tried to brute force their way in. Their only saving grace was Japanese inability to supply and reinforce their island garrisons. Oh yeah and can add Iwo Jima to the list.
it was literally not a human wave assault, but a coordinated assault between infantry and naval gunnery
Being outnumbered doesn't make it a human wave. Just means you picked a fight with the wrong people.
>Nein ze amerikaner didnt outmaneuver us ja we wuz military geniuses an schiesse
It's such a weird type of double-think
>Germans made the best tank
Oh so they won the war then?
>no they lost to the USA
Okay so American tanks were better
>nooooo it doesn't count they just built more
Why didn't Germany build more of theirs?
>they couldn't
So they picked the wrong tanks to build if they couldn't produce enough of them
If Germany had built more tanks instead of fewer large tanks they'd just have run out of fuel faster. WW2 was a strategic defeat, not a wunderwaffe competition.
>If Germany had built more tanks instead of fewer large tanks they'd just have run out of fuel faster.
Run out of fuel doing what? Waiting for the Allies to come to them?
tanks are maneuver warfare elements, if you're reduced to digging your supertanks into static Atlantic Wall defensive positions you've already lost, also the entire eastern front you dumb moron
Sounds like a Germany problem.
So you build these thousands of tanks just for them to sit there and achieve nothing of note besides being worse and more expensive versions of gun emplacements without power because you can’t charge the battery’s.
IIRC the swedes bought a Königstiger from the french and tested various foreign and domestic tank cannons on it, including a M4A3(76)W, and concluded that the 76mm could misson kill a Königstiger
The M4 can be produced in enough numbers to make a difference
whenever I run out of content elsewhere, I can always turn to PrepHole for these worthless but endlessly entertaining arguements
You can stay out from this place for years and when you come back it's the same threads and same arguments. You haven't missed anything
Both German and Russian crews preferred M4s when available through capture or lend lease respectively.
Just because it was mass produced doesn't mean it was shit.
>but no way the M4 can take out a Tiger II.
I feel like you are asking too much from a carbine anon
The M4 excelled at reliability and crew survivability, and it could handle like 95% of what was thrown at it, and it could be massed produced. That’s a pretty fucking good tank. Compare that to the Tiger, which there was hardly any of, and which would break down before it reached the front line, and which was too slow to be used for many tasks.
Nice quads
Also early Shermans weren't supposed to take out tiger II
M4A3E8 arrives to the battlefield
Konigstiger does not arrive to the battlefield, is disqualified
Konigstiger wins on paper 1v1, M4 wins in war
What about a Pershing vs IS-2?
they can kill each other but the american crew can see outside and don't have to deal with two part howitzer ammo
The Panther was generally the best WW2 tank. Most experts agree with that one.
They won't have to if a third of them break down before they even encounter the enemy.
That's some textbook bait right there, how did you retards even fall for this?
It would have been so epic to see equal matches between the Pershings and Tigers in France. Such a shame we were robbed of kino by ordnance board hacks.
At least we got the Cologne Panther vs Pershing battle