PASGT modernization

Let's say it's an alternate 1990s and the Department of Defense gets a way bigger chunk of its budget cut in the post-Cold War period. So much so that Interceptor Body Armor winds up getting completely axed. The program is dead and it's never coming back. Alternatives like Ranger Body Armor and TG Faust likewise can't be mass produced and will only be issued to a limited number of units on a case-by-case basis.

BUT...

There's just enough money left over for a modernization program of existing stocks of PASGT vests. Any number of modifications can be potentially made, but they must continue using the PASGT vest as their base.

How do you upgrade PASGT for use in the 21st Century?

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Titanium diboride applique in the 8-10mm thickness range, sized around 50-100mm per tile.

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Change the cover to something resembling the Crye Cage. That way the liner still meets at the sternum, but you have a plate bag over top of the seam. Then issue Sapis that would have otherwise been used in the Isapo overvests.

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Looks like LC-2 is back on the menu.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Does anyone in the US Army still FLC webbing at all or was that completely abandoned?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They have largely been replaced by the TAPS system but certain units still use them (Reserves, POGs etc)

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I have one of these. Light infantry suspension system by sotech. I like it

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >500 bucks for an LBE
        Are people this dense? You can pick up old LBE for practically nothing and turn them into the same thing for a fraction of the cost

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It was only 200

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I met a couple of Scout Snipers at Fleet Week who were still rocking legit LC-2s

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Drill Sgt Hagman at 1-64 Ft. Benning rocked a stock LC2 alice pack and occasionally LBE webbing when I went through.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >

          cool

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >So much so that Interceptor Body Armor winds up getting completely axed.
    >There's just enough money left over for a modernization program of existing stocks of PASGT vests.
    Holy shit that would fricking suck for infantry dudes. The difference in comfort/flexibility between the PASGT and IBA is night and day.

    Anyway, I'd start by having a pouch for a plate sewn on the back, which would be easy enough. Maybe you could cut up the front side of the vest and integrate a plate compartment in the right flap, basically turning the vest into a less comfortable and heavier IBA. Make it attach via buckles rather than velcro too.
    Also have adjustable straps replace the elastic ones holding the sides of the vest to the rear. They'd be more durable and easy enough to use.
    You could sew MOLLE loops on to the vest but I don't really see a point since the Army oftentimes just wore ALICE over IBAs instead of using MOLLE pouches IRL, so you can imagine it would be even more pointless in an alternate timeline where Interceptor gets canned.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Also ISAPO existed IRL, but the scenario called for modification of the PASGT and I feel like layering the plate carrier over the vest would be too cumbersome and heavy to be worth implementing.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >ISAPO

        I didn't know these were a thing. I wouldn't have even bothered making this thread if I had lol.

        I was just curious if there had ever been attempt to convert a PASGT vest to be compatible with a plate carrier.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >I was just curious if there had ever been attempt to convert a PASGT vest to be compatible with a plate carrier.

          Nah, it's just way too bulky any way you slice it. You'd need something like the PACA vest (picrel). PACAs were issued to Rangers and SEALs back in the day as optional soft armor to layer underneather plate carriers.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Here's a Ranger wearing a PACA under his RLCS kit with plates. You have to look closely but you can see both layers. That's how tight the soft armor has to fit if you want a plate carrier over it.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Here's a better view of some SEALS with plate carriers over soft armor. The two dudes on the left wearing very minimalist plate carriers over soft vests clearly, dude center right as well but a bit harder to see. Dude on the right wearing a single carrier with plate and soft armor together instead of layers (IIRC a CIRAS maritime)

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >ISAPO

        What that

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Basically a minimal profile plate carrier you wear over the PASGT vest. By minimal profile, I mean that it has literally nothing other than two pockets for plates and straps connecting them. After all, it's just supposed to be a stopgap addon to the PASGT so you should be wearing LBE separately anyway.
          I have seen people wearing ISAPO on its own however.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >The difference in comfort/flexibility between the PASGT and IBA is night and day.

      Wait, you're saying IBAs are MORE comfortable than PASGT? I always assumed the tradeoff of plate carriers vs flak vests was sacrificing comfort for protection.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        That dude has never worn PASGT gear.
        The PASGT helmet was dogshit, but the PASGT vest was as comfy as a jacket. It felt like nothing to wear. I don't know what it was like with plates, but the vest itself was cool.
        The IBA, in contrast, makes you want to kys, especially if you're out in the heat.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        That dude has never worn PASGT gear.
        The PASGT helmet was dogshit, but the PASGT vest was as comfy as a jacket. It felt like nothing to wear. I don't know what it was like with plates, but the vest itself was cool.
        The IBA, in contrast, makes you want to kys, especially if you're out in the heat.

        I have and I've extensively used both of them.
        For me, between a size M PASGT vest and Interceptor, the shoulder straps of the Interceptor were much more comfortable even with fully-loaded ALICE stacked on top. The IBA is also lighter without plates and is certainly lighter with plates than the PASGT/ISAPO combo.
        The PASGT vest also didn't fit tightly against my upper torso and obstructed the movement of my arms, making shouldering a rifle and other actions less comfortable. The straps holding the front and rear sections together are also non-adjustable so you don't really get any semblance of weight distribution and it rests entirely on your shoulders.
        As for ventilation and heat dissipation, the PASGT might have been a little better but I never really minded wearing the IBA for hours at a time in summer because literally everything else was better.
        The PASGT helmet suspension is dogshit though and I know that, hence why I've only ever worn it with the Oregon Aero upgrade kit.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >The IBA is also lighter without plates

          Interesting, I wonder how they pulled that off...

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          i like quads

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    PASGT isn't really plate compatible and IBA is basically what you would get if you modified it to take plates. In the mid 90's the Army procured a number of PBPV (personal ballistic protection vest) from Point Blank. It's a pretty good system and superior to the IBA in many ways. I think instead of modernizing the PASGT, the army would keep it for most units. And procure more PBPVs for issuance to deployed units. The expectation in the 90's was that the future would be more minor peace keeping and counter terror operations. So you wouldn't need to buy enough to equip the entire army. Just enough to equip whatever force was being deployed. And everyone else could keep their PASGTs.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >The expectation in the 90's was that the future would be more minor peace keeping and counter terror operations
      Why does it seem like every "the future is..." projection ends up being dead wrong?
      > maybe get the consensus of general staff
      > and do the opposite

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Isn't that... literally exactly what happened? Mostly minor peace keeping in the GWOT and counter terror operations in most shitholes?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          They thought it would be more like Kosovo levels of peacekeeping. Not the scale of GWOT. That's why troops were so poorly equipped during the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. The peace dividend meant there weren't stocks of desert uniforms and kit to issue out to everyone. And many troops did roll into Iraq with PASGTs still. Armor like RBA and PBPV were only ever procured in the thousands. There were nowhere near enough to go around to equip everyone and IBA had only just been adopted and deliveries were just starting.

          >The expectation in the 90's was that the future would be more minor peace keeping and counter terror operations
          Why does it seem like every "the future is..." projection ends up being dead wrong?
          > maybe get the consensus of general staff
          > and do the opposite

          Big Army couldn't have predicted GWOT. And even if they had, Congress was not writing checks for mass modernization and procurements at the time.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Big Army couldn't have predicted GWOT.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >Schizo moron

              It fricking sucks dude Im a Stryker driver why do I have to wear this shit when Im in an armored vehicle. Typical cav scout shit when they say "Oh man you might have to dismount and fight if your vehicle gets hit"

              If it gets hit bad enough where we cant move it, Im already frickin dead.

              IDK dude, if you get hit by an IED or a drone I think you'd want the vest on. It wont help against a tank shell sure. But there's a lot out there that can get through the side of a Stryker that might not kill you if you have your armor on.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I just wanted an excuse to post that lol

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                make it lighter cheaper and stronger. better camo too

                naww jit trippin!

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                ?feature=shared&t=2214

                March 2001. homie.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                And? Why is it some big revelation to you that hollywood writers were able to come up with the same obvious thing terrorists did. Did they also predict the 20 years of forever war in the middle east? No? Ok, then shut the frick up.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah actually they kinda did

                ?feature=shared&t=990

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              What if these pieces of media inspired the 9/11 attack?
              We know for sure that Osama was watching western shows and even playing FF VII

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Nah man, it was the Columbine shooters

                https://nypost.com/1999/04/27/teen-murderers-just-plane-nuts-their-twisted-plot-included-crashing-jet-into-new-york/

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                They didn't inspiration from popular media. Bin Laden had already hit the towers once before with a car bomb in the basement parking garage. And plane hijackings were Islamic terrorist's bread and butter at that point. It was an obvious development to just fly a plane in. Rick Rescorla, Legendary commie killer and head of security of the towers at the time even predicted they would do just that.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                https://i.imgur.com/Rekonva.jpeg

                >Big Army couldn't have predicted GWOT.

                >beavis and butthead inspired Osama to do 9/11

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Imagine if the eifel tower got exploded one day, we'd have so much media predicting it lol

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Sesame Street inspired 9/11

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                yes

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Isn't Die Hard set in LA though?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It's a schizo post Anon.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Just thought it was worth pointing out.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >And many troops did roll into Iraq with PASGTs still
            I did. Natty guard 99-06. Did the whole fun in the sun in 03 with essentially the same shit my dad had when he went into Kuwait in 1991.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Looks a lot like an RBA

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Pretty similar in layout but the plates are a different shape. The front plate is pretty similar to SAPI but the rear plate is very long and covers the spine. The RBA front plate has only the right side cut out for a shooter and the rear plate is a square.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          More info and pictures here: https://gwotmuseum.org/2019/10/26/pbpv-personal-ballistic-protective-vest/

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I always thought it was weird how RBAs only protected the upper back and left the bottom of the spine completely exposed.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            RBA was an early design but they already knew everything they needed to know about how to design a proper armor carrier in Vietnam. Natick ran the variable body armor program and the data from that is still some of the best rigorous scientific data on body armor design available to the public. Its main failing was cost cutting. The Rangers wanted rifle plates but they couldn't afford the high speed TG Faust and PTA carriers Delta were using at the time. Gen 1 RBA didn't even have a rear plate and soldiers died in Mogadishu directly because of that. Gen 2 and 3 added a rear plate but they were still a funky shape. PBPV is better in every way and more in line with what industry was producing in the 90's. Both are rendered obsolete by SPEAR BALCS. IBA was only adopted the way it was because it was cheap enough they could afford to mass issue it. Its a pretty bad design really. It's only redeeming feature is you can wear it opened up like the old flak vests which is nice in any environment above room temp

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              https://i.imgur.com/bAfz1OF.jpeg

              Let's say it's an alternate 1990s and the Department of Defense gets a way bigger chunk of its budget cut in the post-Cold War period. So much so that Interceptor Body Armor winds up getting completely axed. The program is dead and it's never coming back. Alternatives like Ranger Body Armor and TG Faust likewise can't be mass produced and will only be issued to a limited number of units on a case-by-case basis.

              BUT...

              There's just enough money left over for a modernization program of existing stocks of PASGT vests. Any number of modifications can be potentially made, but they must continue using the PASGT vest as their base.

              How do you upgrade PASGT for use in the 21st Century?

              I have a question, who makes front opening vests these days? I would like to know because I live in a tropical place.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                In the US, only cop vests; specifically the ones intended to mimic the shirt worn underneath. Internationally the bongs use a flak jacket in some roles, or at least did until very recently; called the ECBA. They're easy to get in milsurp stores, but idk if the armor liner is obtainable over here and that's the part that matters.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I think the israelis also still issue a bunch of front opening flak vests. Everyone did at some point and you can usually find them in surplus stores or on ebay pretty easily.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Hmmm now that I think about it, how does the armor plates on the IBA work since its front opening?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                It overlaps like a double breasted jacket.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                So, like, it wraps around the front? Interesting design.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                The two flaps overlap slightly. One has the plate pocket and the other has a securing flap sewn on that goes over the front and secures with the velcro and snaps.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >only cop vests; specifically the ones intended to mimic the shirt worn underneath
                I've never seen that style of carrier not be side opening, the front row of buttons is just sewn on to look like a shirt
                t. wears a cop style vest for work

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                High com does but like

                In the US, only cop vests; specifically the ones intended to mimic the shirt worn underneath. Internationally the bongs use a flak jacket in some roles, or at least did until very recently; called the ECBA. They're easy to get in milsurp stores, but idk if the armor liner is obtainable over here and that's the part that matters.

                said, its cop oriented.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Find out what your local cops wear

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Level IIA donut-derived adipose composite

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                This might be what you're looking for

                https://bodyarmoroutlet.com/products/baot-apatf-patrol-front-opening-carrier

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                https://www.highcomarmor.com/product/trooper-ftv/

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They also make a cop IBA thing
                https://www.highcomarmor.com/product/trooper-opc/

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >BAO Tactical
                Also these look a lot like the old SWAT vests that had velcro which is interesting. I remember there were versions of those with MOLLE but I could nevet find them again.

                The old SWAT vests were made by the same people who made IBAs hence the similiarity.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >Gen 1 RBA didn't even have a rear plate and soldiers died in Mogadishu directly because of that

              It was just one, Casey Joyce. Shot through the back, had the round bounce off his front plate, and probably eviscerated his heart

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Oh man so the Blackhawk Down movie did him dirty by making it seem like he was issued a backplate and removed it? Thats some bullshit I just learned.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah pretty much. The Gen 2 didn't exist yet and came directly because of that battle.

                https://i.imgur.com/umrNUUO.jpeg

                >I was just curious if there had ever been attempt to convert a PASGT vest to be compatible with a plate carrier.

                Nah, it's just way too bulky any way you slice it. You'd need something like the PACA vest (picrel). PACAs were issued to Rangers and SEALs back in the day as optional soft armor to layer underneather plate carriers.

                https://i.imgur.com/hkxmZ11.jpeg

                Here's a Ranger wearing a PACA under his RLCS kit with plates. You have to look closely but you can see both layers. That's how tight the soft armor has to fit if you want a plate carrier over it.

                https://i.imgur.com/TncE5Xx.jpeg

                Here's a better view of some SEALS with plate carriers over soft armor. The two dudes on the left wearing very minimalist plate carriers over soft vests clearly, dude center right as well but a bit harder to see. Dude on the right wearing a single carrier with plate and soft armor together instead of layers (IIRC a CIRAS maritime)

                Funny how completely unprepared we were for GWOT. Something as simple as a soft armor carrier with SAPI plate pockets shouldn't be hard to order in whatever volume you want. But we had guys doing all these improvised solutions.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                So that layering of armor was actually an intended feature rather that an improvised loadout. The idea was that you could scale up or down to the local thread level.
                I believe (it's been a long time since I did a deep dive) that it was the soft armor actually intended to be worn alone without the plates, if protection was scaled down. This seems backwards to our modern minds where usually soft armor is left off and people roll with just plates in plate carriers. Remember though that this is coming from PASGTs being the standard and military thinking more about soft armor being a baseline, and plates being a "+1" for higher threat levels.

                Of course the reality showed that people prefer plate carriers and ditching soft armor if given the choice. I wouldn't say the scaling system was terrible, in the end it did provide appropriate protection and options, though the initial RLCS kit was made as a "chest rig that can kinda hold plates" rather than a real plate carrier. SAPI plates would be kind of exposed at the corners, and you can see the siddeplates in the above pic. MBAVs and other stuff being issued or bought quickly fixed that.
                Overall the RLCS and the similar stuff the SEALs had was miles better than the IBA. The IBA's soft armor was was too thick and "pillowy" Aftermarket Eagle CIRAS soft armor was much thinner while offering the same protection, making easier to shoulder a rifle. I also know the IBA front opening and lack of a cumberbund meant a lot of guys ended up with back problems from the weird weight distribution. The opening velcro and flap was also a bad place to stick pouches, so you had to either wear a chest rig, or rig up some kind of strap to keep a worn out IBA closed.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The inside of the front of the Ranger RRV for anybody who hasn't seen it. The plate just sits in the mesh and gets strapped in. The MOLLE bib on front goes up and covers it from the front, but the plate is exposed on the sides, corners, and the back is just naked.
                There's a back panel for the RRV not in the above pic that can be rigged up for a back plate.
                So the idea was total scalability. Want just a chest rig for recon stuff? Remove the plates. Want just soft armor for PASGT tier frag protection? Wear the PACA and the RRV without plates. Want full protection? Put the plates in.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's a tiny plate pocket. Reminds me of the tiny "trauma plates" some cop body armor has instead of a proper sapi cut.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It holds a SAPI. The SAPI sticks out above the mesh and is bare in the back except for the strap, the front face is covered just by the MOLLE bib.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >There's a back panel for the RRV not in the above pic that can be rigged up for a back plate.
                The back panel for the RRV is just the rear platebag from an MBAV.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Seems to me all of the attempts to make a "scalable" system fail. Its kind of similar to the other attempts in the military to make something really modular. The idea is nice but the reality is people are going to set things up for their use case and leave it that way. A scalable armor system ends up being heavier and less comfortable than a normal armor carrier.
                >stuff the SEALs had was miles better than the IBA.
                IBA was shit. It was the end result of the Army recognizing the need for rifle rated body armor but trying to do it during the peace dividend when they had no many. There are so many compromises. As I said here

                https://i.imgur.com/xUSaESR.jpeg

                PASGT isn't really plate compatible and IBA is basically what you would get if you modified it to take plates. In the mid 90's the Army procured a number of PBPV (personal ballistic protection vest) from Point Blank. It's a pretty good system and superior to the IBA in many ways. I think instead of modernizing the PASGT, the army would keep it for most units. And procure more PBPVs for issuance to deployed units. The expectation in the 90's was that the future would be more minor peace keeping and counter terror operations. So you wouldn't need to buy enough to equip the entire army. Just enough to equip whatever force was being deployed. And everyone else could keep their PASGTs.

                PBPV was a much better system. They would have done well to have adopted it instead.
                >Eagle CIRAS
                Yeah I'm a big fan of BALCS as a standard. Its a good compromise between coverage and comfort/movement. And you can always tack on the dick flap, arms and throat etc if you really want to. And here's the thing. If you really care about scalability, there's nothing stopping you from pulling the soft armor inserts out. Its not quite a light weight as a low profile carrier, but a BALCS carrier is less bulky than any scalable system assembled.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Yeah I'm a big fan of BALCS as a standard
                I should clarify that it's not just the BALCS cut, but the actual soft armor provided by Eagle for them is better than the USGI BALCS you'd find in something like early generation IOTVs. An IOTV was, essentially, a CIRAS but it wore way worse because the USGI soft armor was so much worse. It is thicker and bulker. The Eagle Industry soft armor is like the same thickness as the USGI soft plate backers (while being rated for the same, if that gives a visual.

                > If you really care about scalability, there's nothing stopping you from pulling the soft armor inserts out. Its not quite a light weight as a low profile carrier, but a BALCS carrier is less bulky than any scalable system assembled.
                I think we've reached the point where the smart money is to have two vests issued person- a plate carrier and a full armor vest. If you aren't 100% which one to run, run them both slick with a clip on rig for gear. Easy to swap back and forth, and easy to totally ditch gear for guys working in turrets and stuff.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >the actual soft armor provided by Eagle for them is better than the USGI BALCS
                That's probably a cost cutting measure. You can always get thinner and lighter for the same protection if you are willing to spend the money. Most NIJ listed armor makers have their lineups segmented that way. For both hard and soft. The big army solution is never going to be the best one. Its going to be whatever they can get congress to fund 500k units of.

                >have two vests issued person- a plate carrier and a full armor vest.
                I'd argue its better to do it the other way. Have a soft frag vest and a full armor carrier as standard. plate carriers are pretty niche in warfare. Back echelon troops like artillery, truck drivers etc are still at risk of frag from indirect fires. A large coverage frag vest would serve them better than a PC. Issue the armor carrier to front line combat arms. If the cool guys want to run PCs then they can.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Full armor has been the standard with plate carriers as the exception for most of the existence of both, but plate carriers were super super common in places like Afghanistan and the military has become more comfortable institutionally with having normal troops use them. I'd argue that just issuing a plate carrier along with the soft armor carrier makes sense. A plate carrier on it's own is going to cost so little compared to all the other gear, may as well just issue it. Not a second set of plates, just the carrier. This is essentially how stuff worked during high deployment periods anyway. You'd get issued a plate carrier (or sometimes multiple plate carriers) from a unit and pull your plates out of your soft armor vest if you knew you were going to use the carrier instead.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Soft armor is on the way out in the long term. We already have ballistic shirts, eventually its just going to be full frag-resistant uniforms and plates over top.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I think we'll continue to see it as a backing material for plates, but getting thinner and thinner. My bet is on M5 fiber and UHMWPP being the next thing for soft armor after UHMWPE.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Those ballistic shirts still use the same aramids, just packaged in a different way. I doub't you'll see a completely kevlar combat shirt. That wouldn't breathe at all and would trap sweat to you. Its better to have a shirt with good breathability and wicking properties and wear armor over top. Another thing to consider is, like the operators at the start of gwot found, wearing layered garment and kit sucks. Its more space efficient and weight efficient to build you armor into one carrier than it is to layer them. Modern soft inserts are much thinner, lighter and more flexible than they were 20 years ago. Making a carrier with the coverage and protection levels of a flak jacket but much lighter and easier to wear is easy. The same goes for plates. The original SAPI was Level III, you can do that with thin UHMWPE now.

                https://i.imgur.com/oTf9EPO.jpeg

                Yeah they did. The way the scene is in the film, his death looks like the result of unadulterated arrogance.

                Honestly the could have omitted that detail entirely or rewritten the actors' line as Grimes expressing concern that his vest doesn't have a backplate and Joyce making a joke about how their lives are cheaper than vests.

                >Joyce making a joke about how their lives are cheaper than vests.
                Would have been more in character for him to say, "don't get shot in the back Rangers lead the way" That was the copium PR justification IRL.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                And to add, those shirts protect where they do because its better than the big shitty arm protectors that nobody ever wears. You wouldn't have the same benefit making the whole shirt that way.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Would have been more in character for him to say, "don't get shot in the back Rangers lead the way" That was the copium PR justification IRL.

                Compromise, he says it in a joking manner.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Shoulder, crotch and neck armor is a must if you're going to war in a place with actual artillery and not just IEDs and mortars.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Most military issue body armor is still soft armor with room for plates...

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You are misunderstanding. In the RLCS, the soft armor and the hard armor were in completely different rigs. It wasn't a soft armor rig you could add/remove a plate from. It was a plate carrier worn on top of a soft armor only vest.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                All military plate carriers and armor carriers have soft armor. Only SF run around with no soft armor. Even the MBAV had a soft armor insert, hence why crye still sells MBAV cut AVSs

                Also BALCS soft armor ie RAV/CIRAS insert sucks balls for shouldering a rifle. It was higher quality than the IBA so thinner while achieving the same protection but it had obnoxious wings that almost always overlapped on the sides. Every plate carrier designed for balcs was cutting edge at the time but now hopelessly bad

                The RRV was never worn with "just" a front plate. If you tried it on you'd know why. The MBSS plate carrier rear bag was designed to match up to an RRV for that purpose, and was used.

                https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/eagle-industries-mlcs-rrv-mbss-plate-1869024150

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Only SF run around with no soft armor.
                Many men skipped it in GWOT. My main drill sergeant in basic training had cracked ribs from taking 4 AK shots to his plate without a backer.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >The RRV was never worn with "just" a front plate
                Yes it was, almost exclusively; when plates were used at all. You'll never find a pic of an RRV actually being used with the rear plate bag, it was something that could be done in principle but nobody did. Because if you're going to wear the rear plate, you might as well just use the front of the plate carrier as well and ditch the RRV.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >All military plate carriers and armor carriers have soft armor.

                The RRV did not have soft armor as originally designed to be worn in conjunction with the PACA.

                >Only SF run around with no soft armor.
                Lots of normal dudes, depending on time, job, and theater ran around with plate carriers that didn't have additional soft armor coverage, so are you saying no backers cut to the exact plate size, or no additional soft armor coverage as like BALCS. Plate backers cut to the exact same size as a SAPI were introduced, but those weren't part of the original RLCS issue, because to repeat myself again- the way it was set up never originally conceived of plates being worn in the RRV without the PACA also being worn.

                >The RRV was never worn with "just" a front plate. If you tried it on you'd know why. The MBSS plate carrier rear bag was designed to match up to an RRV for that purpose, and was used.

                I never said it was only worn with just a front plate.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                "run around with" is present tense.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah they did. The way the scene is in the film, his death looks like the result of unadulterated arrogance.

                Honestly the could have omitted that detail entirely or rewritten the actors' line as Grimes expressing concern that his vest doesn't have a backplate and Joyce making a joke about how their lives are cheaper than vests.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah pretty much. The Gen 2 didn't exist yet and came directly because of that battle.
                [...]
                [...]
                [...]
                Funny how completely unprepared we were for GWOT. Something as simple as a soft armor carrier with SAPI plate pockets shouldn't be hard to order in whatever volume you want. But we had guys doing all these improvised solutions.

                I don't think it was Joyce who removes the plate in the scene, is it?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Half the characters are made up either out of respect or because they are composites of several RL soldiers to keep the story more streamlined. He doesn't have a name tape on his DCUs so who knows.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Man, RBAs are weirdly aesthetic despite being objectively inferior to IBAs

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >The Rangers wanted rifle plates but they couldn't afford the high speed TG Faust and PTA carriers Delta were using at the time

              Delta loaned a lot of their TG Faust vests to the Rangers in-country

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's pretty neat.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                A few even found their way into the hands of conventional US troops in-country as well, as did RBAs.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >TG Faust armor carrier
                >commercial scoped r700
                I bet that soldier felt cool as shit with all that non standard kit lol
                A lot of this limited kit wound up in weird places years later. The 173rd jumped into Iraq with RBAs for example. And regular infantry units were issued it in Kosovo

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >commercial scoped r700

                I'm pretty sure that's just a regular M24

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Maybe it is. I'm not used to seeing them in plain black like that.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                IIRC M24s actually originally only came in black and olive finishes, and the tan had to be manually applied with paint when GWOT rolled around

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah they are black. I just almost always see them either painted or with scrim so seeing a normal black one made my brain assume it was off the shelf.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Painfully aesthetic image

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                God damn that moustache on the left is immaculate.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                /k/ino

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I'd figure its because painting your rifle is the cool thing to do, and especially back in the height of GWOT everyone wanted to do it, and guys with 700s were more likely to have the freedom from command to actually paint their shit.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              RBA is pretty similar to British ECBA armor which is a great surplus vest if used with rigging, there's something really practical about the low profile flak vests with a small front and back rifle plates.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                How does ECBA do with ALICE rigging

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                ?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Fine, I use mine with the Bong rigging that has the pre stitched pouches or the Dutch molle equivalent but ALICE will have no issues.

                I've seen those pop up a few times but they are almost always missing the kevlar and plates. Seems the bongs are the fun police.

                Kevlar fillers for them are normally still inside unless a seller is bulk selling just the outer garment.
                Plates are harder to find but not impossible as a few Brit items still use them so they tend to issue them with newer armies.

                Also Britain donated huge amounts of MK6A helmets (the not shit MK6) MK7 and ECBA armor to Ukraine so sadly a lot of it might not be on the surplus market.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                I've seen those pop up a few times but they are almost always missing the kevlar and plates. Seems the bongs are the fun police.

                Got it in desert DPM with the soft filler and plates then swapped the armor into an unissued MTP cover.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                Give it a love tap as a sign of appreciation

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I've seen those pop up a few times but they are almost always missing the kevlar and plates. Seems the bongs are the fun police.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      interesting

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Flak jackets with alice vs plate carriers with molle
      You described the whole difference between the two and still failed to realize op was asking what could be improved and what did get improved. Nobody would sit around making flak jackets, they're inserts for ballistic vests, along with better plates. With integrated modular strapping system. It is a ballistic vest it's scalable to size for a flack or soft armor panel like kevlar, and also a replaceable ceramic plate. Whether you put your molle directly on it or have another system to do it it's already been done. There is no other different way to do it better, unless you want a modern flack vest with a ceramic insert and then you still just have an over built plate carrier and you want molle accessories that is just an inch by an inch wide strapping system with buttons. It's ridiculous saying what would anyone do like they'd build an over sized soft armor vest that is less capable of replacing components and plates that stop bigger threats. The interceptor was the advancement of that and they thought front opening like what flak vests would let medics work on people easier. Now you have strap releases hidden in the shoulder for a smaller vest to cut material costs. Interceptor was your cut off for flak vests being improved. You're wearing some out of date shit that a 9x19 projectile can penetrate if you're just wearing soft armor only which flak vests are, they evolved into plate carriers.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Flak vests didn't evolve into plate carriers. They evolved into armor carriers. Plate carriers are niche equipment. Molle is just an attachment standard. You can put it on anything. It was already adopted before the IBA and was used in conjunction with the PASGT in the 90's. You don't see a lot of that because not much molle gear was procured before GWOT for the same reason rifle rated armor wasn't. Also, you should really read the rest of the discussion before you reply to a comment early on and bypass the 2 weeks of discussion we've had since.

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Its off topic but I want to take this opportunity to say that I fricking hate the IOTV

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Based

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        It fricking sucks dude Im a Stryker driver why do I have to wear this shit when Im in an armored vehicle. Typical cav scout shit when they say "Oh man you might have to dismount and fight if your vehicle gets hit"

        If it gets hit bad enough where we cant move it, Im already frickin dead.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Do you enjoy your job?
          just curious

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I adore it. Being a driver means I can escape a lot of the typical "standing around doing nothing" Thats involved with garrison military life. I can basically say to my SGT "I gotta go do driver shit" And I have 2-3 hours of being unsupervised and fixing shit

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Based
              You gonna reup?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Frick no I'm gonna go home and get forklift certified and do a bunch of LSD

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Certified - Have fun with skill bridge bro.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I've seen an IOTV save a driver's life. I know it sucks anon, but if you're overseas, wear it. Your life is worth more than being comfortable in your box.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            My main concern is getting snagged trying to get out of a burning vehicle. I already have to wait for the dismounts to scram before I can exit. I would rather get gibbed by a mine than burn up because my vest got hooked on something.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Finaggle with your kit to minimize shit that can get snagged. Tape down the drag handle if your IOTV has it.

              Take exit drills seriously, if you guys do them (You should, or your leadership is moronic),

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                We dont do them, Its a Cav unit dude. We dont do anything to do with mounted movement. I study rollover and fire drills on my own.

                My Cav unit is basically tiny, wannabe infantry, its infuriating.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You could certainly do your own.

                How much of Stryker does a driver get to work on if they're mechanically skilled? Are all relevant pubs with the vehicle or easy to access? Can you order parts like AF maintainers can for aircraft?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Hmmm sounds like the heavy cav unit I was in back at Benning in the mid to late 2000s. All infantry BS

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          My main concern is getting snagged trying to get out of a burning vehicle. I already have to wait for the dismounts to scram before I can exit. I would rather get gibbed by a mine than burn up because my vest got hooked on something.

          What do you think of the MSV? You guys (theoretically) should be getting them and since the system includes low-profile no frills configurations I figured you might like that

          https://i.imgur.com/Rekonva.jpeg

          >Big Army couldn't have predicted GWOT.

          TBF most of these were made after the 1993 attempted attack on the towers. Notice how the Beavis & Butthead one has them flying around the towers and throwing bombs instead of crashing. Also, they were some of the biggest buildings in the world and arguably the most visible part of NYC's skyline. That would make them an obvious choice target for any fiction writer

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The Beavis and Butthead is fake, it was actually made in 2009.
            That being said, yeah, 1993 bombing is probably the biggest proof that terrorists, Al-Quaeda in particular, were gunning for the Twin Towers for long time. They were a big symbol of modern America, had a lot of people in them and were pretty vulnerable. Americans themselves realized this at least subconsciously, which is why all the real "9-11 predictions" were made.
            The actual beliveable part of the conspiracy to me is that the alphabet agencies knew it will happen or at least heavily suspected the attack but decided not to act either out of incompetence or self interest to blow up their funding in the post-Cold War world.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          You need to walk around in it the least and shrapnel is a considerable threat

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Aren't PASGT vests better at stopping shrapnel than plate carriers?

            I remember reading something about soft body armor being superior in that regard, I might be misremembering it though.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Anon is talking about an armor carrier with soft armor protection

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Yes and that's why most militaries don't issue plate carriers. They issue armor carriers that have both. The Army's IBA, IOTV and MSV are all armor carriers with plates and soft armor. Plate carriers are mostly used by SOF doing direct action raids when artillery isn't a threat.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Yes, but because they offer all-around torso protection, not because soft armor is necessarily better

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Anon is talking about an armor carrier with soft armor protection

              Yes and that's why most militaries don't issue plate carriers. They issue armor carriers that have both. The Army's IBA, IOTV and MSV are all armor carriers with plates and soft armor. Plate carriers are mostly used by SOF doing direct action raids when artillery isn't a threat.

              Yes, but because they offer all-around torso protection, not because soft armor is necessarily better

              Hard armor alone offers better shrapnel protection than soft armor alone, in covered areas. Both hard and soft armor combined offer better protection than either alone. The only reason why soft armor is considered "superior" is just better coverage area, because plates are typically manufactured as big moronic monolithic hunks rather than segmented and articulated like dragon skin.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >simping for dragon skin in 2024
                oh no

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                dragon skin itself had a shit-tier moronic design where the adhesive failed in hot conditions and the plates did not overlap enough for 360 degree coverage

                the idea behind dragon skin, however, was genius and way better than all these monolithic-style plates

                >tl;dr good idea, shitty engineering

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Then why has nobody stolen the idea?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                idk, man. why don't we see more neck, groin, face, stomach, and limb armor? people fall for the "only the vitals" meme.

                too many armor designers are "in the box" kinda thinkers

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >why don't we see more neck, groin, face, stomach, and limb armor?
                It's made and issued in major militaries. It is an option that exists and there are many examples of soldiers using it. The reason it is sometimes not used is because the actual people on the ground are trading weight/bulk for comfort and mobility.
                qed

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >too many armor designers are "in the box" kinda thinkers
                Also doesn't help when government requirements for projects hamstring designers into a taking a conservative approach.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >idk, man. why don't we see more neck, groin, face, stomach, and limb armor? people fall for the "only the vitals" meme.
                Because that sucks ass and anyone who wore all the battle rattle back in GWOT could attest to it. Crotch, arms, chest, neck. Kiss your fricking mobility goodbye and that will kill you faster than anything.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They're useful if you're in a position long enough or inside a vehicle for a long time.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I’ve never been in any military vehicle the post
                You could be in you’re fricking skivvies and it would be uncomfortable

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                So what, and body armor is issued more often to mounted troops than highly mobile foot troops. American troops in Vietnam in mechanized and armored units were the main users of the issued flak jackets for a reason.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Vietnam was 60 years ago Anon. Everyone wears body armor now.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Everyone wears body armor now.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Not exactly. The US military still trains with no body armor for jungle warfare since heat is an issue with them still.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Training isn't combat Anon. In a warzone you'll suck it up and wear the body armor just like they did in the desert.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Highly doubt if we got into Vietnam 2 that we’d be rocking full kit.
                >in before muh GWOT
                yeah yeah I was there too. But that wasn’t jungle patrol through miles of inhospitable terrain in 100% humidity. You FOB hopped and generally were easily within QRF, air support, or any logistical support. If you think jungle fighting would be anywhere near Iraq or Afghanistan then you’re silly.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I highly doubt we would find ourselves in exactly the same conflict as Vietnam again. Fighting in the jungle doesn't mean the conflict will be the same. Plenty of tropical nations issue body armor.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Right but Vietnam was the climate/intensity I was talking about. 66-70 specifically. We haven’t really been in a similar conflict since. I’m not sure when you were in the sandbox but I was there 05-07 and 09-10. Former being Iraq and latter Afghanistan. Both of them (in my opinion) you really worked around urban centers or actual established FOBs. Although the first year in Iraq we were still using makeshift fobs with no name. Regardless, we were still hitting the rack in an established building. We weren’t getting soaked, sleeping in shifts in the mud etc. I mean shoot dude we had latrines and hot chow half the time. I dunno, my grandfather opened up a bit about his time in Vietnam after I came back from Afghanistan and it seemed incomparable. However it also may be the fact that everyone when we were in were volunteers. Different mentality, different training, etc. we weren’t drafting regular citizens and having to gear them. Sure we got equipment issued but how much shit did you really get for deployment that you didn’t already have? That’s just my 2 cents

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Issue doesn't mean wearing them 24/7. The Brazilians and Colombians don't wear them in the jungle either.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Is that an ITL MARS on the Huezillian's M4?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yes.

                I mean it's basically just the ACH but they kept the brim, given that the ACH is a PASGT with no brim in form.
                And I prefer that, I like the brim. It has all the same advantages of a more modern helmet, it's Level IIIa and has some more modern amenities like the straps and velcro. Even now they're not too expensive on Fort Bragg's surplus site, though they've increased a bit since I bought mine. I'd still recommend it if you need a lid or just want PASGT soul without having to actually use a 40+ year old helmet that only protects against 9mm.

                The ACH/MICH helmet is a bit more than just a PASGT without the brim. MSA made ones that are a PASGT without a brim for the French Army and they're a bit different and larger.

                The brim removal is to make mounting night vision and thermal goggles easier.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Bro I rucked for weeks on end in Afghanistan up and down and up and down mountains just to be given First Strikes, water cans, and MOREs in speedballs. It was absolutely shitty.

                Big Army will look at the fact that we did that completely fine and continue applying the same rules.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Funny that you mention it, I just happen to have this picture of a Ranger on patrol in Afghanistan and he doesn't appear to be wearing any body amor, just his FLC vest.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                There's pictures of Seal Team 6 in Afghanistan without body armor as well. I also believe the Seals in Operation Red Wings didn't wear armor though I might be wrong.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous
              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >There's pictures of Seal Team 6 in Afghanistan without body armor as well.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                boonie hats too

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I want you to "suck up" heat exhaustion and heat stroke, genius.

                You also understand the jungle is more consistently hot than the desert right?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                huh, funny they seem to be doing just fine. How about you suck it up with that sucking chest wound?

                https://i.imgur.com/6WjVEWh.jpeg

                Issue doesn't mean wearing them 24/7. The Brazilians and Colombians don't wear them in the jungle either.

                Yeah no shit. I never claimed they would wear it 24/7. Dumbass over here seems to think you can't wear armor at all in the jungle.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >ERDL

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                hhhhgggggg

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                U.S. troops not wearing any kind of armor in combat is an extreme abnormality. Vietnam was probably the last time line units could be found going into combat without it.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Vietnam was probably the last time line units could be found going into combat without it.

                Lotta photos from Panama of troops in combat not wearing any body armor.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Not really. Only since 1991

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >33 years ago.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                This is a meme. The 11Bs and 0311s kicking doors in Fallujah with IBAs did literally just fine. Did it suck absolute dick? Yeah. Did it save lives? Yeah.
                t. did that

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Same homie, but we dropped everything but the chest. Frick all that extra shit.
                >9 line taped to the buttstock
                >no batteries for NVGs
                >jamming extra mags in your pockets
                Ah good ol OIF

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                idk, man. why don't we see more neck, groin, face, stomach, and limb armor? people fall for the "only the vitals" meme.

                too many armor designers are "in the box" kinda thinkers

                also, big plates are very easy to manufacture as compared with lots of small plates. but the multi-hit capability is off the charts, almost comparable to steel.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Dragonskin has NEVER been certified NIJ IV. Best it got was NIJ III.

                It CLAIMED the SOV-4000 was NIJ V, which is a level that doesn't even exist. The proof is trust me bro from the company.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It's called SAS Hexar or SafeLife FRAS (ripoff of Hexar)

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                SAS also bought the rights to Dragon skin. Dragon skin still isn't NIJ certified. But one Hexar model is.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Dragonskin has never been shown to be feasible. All the drama about the "certified then de-certified then recertified then decertified" that people argue over is for the SOV-2000 which was NIJ III.
                Dragonskin SOV-3000 was never even submitted for NIJ IV certification. Never even submitted.
                For a vest that is positioned to replace NIJ IV plates, Dragonskin never even proved that you could reach NIJ IV using overlapping discs.

                Also, Dragonskin SOV-3000 weighed 47.5 pounds basemodel (no neck or groin flaps). A medium IBA with all the addons (shoulder, neck and groin armor) weighed 33 pounds. Soldiers already wanted to ditch IBA for lighter plate carriers.

                So there was a LOT going on aside from the glue not holding. I don't know if engineering can really overcome that at present as opposed to just making better and better SAPI profile stuff.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Dragonskin has NEVER been certified NIJ IV. Best it got was NIJ III.

                It CLAIMED the SOV-4000 was NIJ V, which is a level that doesn't even exist. The proof is trust me bro from the company.

                dragonskin was made with silicon carbide tiles, which is kind of just a meh material by today's standards for the weight. look at the colossus plates using boron carbide/titanium diboride composite to stop .50s at 8.something pounds, you can get level III/IV performance for a lot less weight with newer ceramics.

                >why don't we see more neck, groin, face, stomach, and limb armor?
                It's made and issued in major militaries. It is an option that exists and there are many examples of soldiers using it. The reason it is sometimes not used is because the actual people on the ground are trading weight/bulk for comfort and mobility.
                qed

                my point is you don't see very much of it, and you see a lot of moronic designs such as *soft* limb armor "protecting" long bones.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I'll believe scaled armor as a SAPI replacement when I see it. Material improvements also improve the SAPI style.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You see it in actual military forces not in the commercial market where everybody wants OPS Core, night vision goggles and multicam to post on instagram.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Silicon carbide is still the best going material provided its a good blend like Adepts stuff, or proper hot-pressed. The "ultra heavy" plate Adept showed is not a production item, and it was 9.5lbs. The Colossus which IS production is still the most capable plate on the market and 6.5lbs.
                The weight floor for IV is unlikely to radically change from its ~5lb state-of-the-art until better backing materials enter the scene. The only ceramic that would demonstrably lower weight would be BeO or Be2B, which are absurdly hazardous.

                Titanium diboride applique in the 8-10mm thickness range, sized around 50-100mm per tile.

                >TiB2
                I havent seen any proper studies on its benefits over SiC. The only chart I can find is a mid-90s DSTL specifically dealing with long-rod WHA projectiles, not exactly applicable to small arms threats.
                There was a paper regarding "critical thickness to shatter FFV round" or something that pegs TiB2 as requiring slightly less thickess to shatter M993, but its hardly a revolutionary difference considering the ONE POINT THREE g/cc density disparity.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I think the best material out there now is actually IDEAL, which is a diamond silicon carbide composite that is not commercialized yet: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272884223031735

                Boron carbide is a bit better performance than silicon carbide in terms of what is used in SAPIs. There are a lot of higher-performance ceramic composites reported in literature that are not commercialized yet.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Lacking the full paper on IDEAL I cant really comment on it. That said, no real reason to disagree, Silicon Carbide with dopants rules the roost.
                Boron Carbide of course wins on steel and lead-core threats purely because its 20% lighter. I am biased against it because it craps out against tungsten (or any high velocity impact), but thats a corner case admittedly.

                >Boron carbide is a bit better performance than silicon carbide in terms of what is used in SAPIs.
                SAPIs I am tracking use reaction bonded Silicon Carbide, with ESAPIs transitioning to reaction bonded boron carbide. The SAPI spec doesnt really require a thick enough ceramic layer to make the difference in mass very large, but its easy to shave weight by swapping ceramic type for ESAPI-tier threats.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Sounds like boron carbide is generally better. tungsten threats aren't all the common. Most military ammunition is lead core and steel core. tungsten implies some pretty spicy stuff like SLAP rounds.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                "better" entirely depends on your usecase, the price for good boron carbide is higher than good silicon carbide. For helicopters or other aircraft, the weight savings can be pretty substantial. For heavy land vehicles boron carbide performs worse than alumina oxide even. If you know your threat environment, you can get very lightweight IV-adjacent plates like the SOCOM TSAs made of B4C right on the cusp of 5lbs.

                what dopants are typically (or even atypically) being used? (besides diamond powder, of course)

                Tons of different ceramics in small percentages. Boron Carbide, Titanium Diboride, usually formed in-situ during sintering. Aluminum oxide too. A lot of the additives are sintering aids, since silicon carbide used to suck shit to sinter well. They can enhance some aspect/s of the SiC as well, like reducing porosity.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >"better" entirely depends on your usecase,
                Well this thread is about body armor not vehicle armor. So it can be assumed the use case is that. Seems to me, more high end rifle armor is made from boron carbide and silicon carbide and aluminum oxide are more common in less expensive plates.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                interesting stuff. are indium or indium-tin oxide popular sintering aids?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Indium is awfully dense and extremely soft, I dont believe its used in any appreciable degree as a sintering aid for armor ceramics. Same for Tin, an additional issue is the lack of carbide formation if added to either boron or silicon. So youd end up with loose agglomerates of Indium or Tin that are actively detrimental to microstructure.
                If you were down bad to add a heavier element to a ceramic, you would find Zirconium or Titanium better suited since they form useful carbides with the addition of a modest excess of carbon (itself a sintering aid).

                >"better" entirely depends on your usecase,
                Well this thread is about body armor not vehicle armor. So it can be assumed the use case is that. Seems to me, more high end rifle armor is made from boron carbide and silicon carbide and aluminum oxide are more common in less expensive plates.

                >high end rifle armor is made from boron carbide and silicon carbide and aluminum oxide are more common in less expensive plates.
                Boron Carbide plates do occupy the top price points, owing to their lighter weight. Where Silicon Carbide in pedestrian reaction-bonded form takes the midmarket or even lower plates, in proper hot-pressed or sintered form it occupies roles that Boron carbide cannot. XSAPIs and the commercial XSAPI options would actually be heavier and thicker if they used Boron Carbide, requiring something like 30% more ceramic to perform similarly. Its all about usecase

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >XSAPIs and the commercial XSAPI options would actually be heavier and thicker if they used Boron Carbide, requiring something like 30% more ceramic to perform similarly. Its all about usecase

                What differentiates high end commercial level 4 from XSAPI generally? Other than SAPI is ICW.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >What differentiates high end commercial level 4 from XSAPI generally
                XSAPI is 3x hits of 7.62x51 M993, a tungsten carbide AP round at 3050fps. Level IV is one hit of 30-06 steel core AP at like 2900fps.
                Think of it like squares and rectangles, all XSAPI spec plates can handle the IV threat, but not all (functionally none) IVs can handle the XSAPI threat at the required velocity, unless specifically built to account for M993.
                "High End" IVs are typically boron carbide and are unsuited to handling tungsten-core threats.
                The XSAPI spec plates the Army procured in the 2008-2012 timeframe are ICW, but building a plate to handle M993 does not require ICW. Three commercial standalone XSAPI plates have made it to market at one time or other: Adept's Colossus (6.5lbs, currently available), Stealth Armor Systems Hexar 4 (7.8lbs and discontinued), and LTC's 28601 (6.3lbs, discontinued).

                Pic related, I built a 6.5lb standalone plate to be tested to 3x hits of M993 at 3050fps and 6x hits of M855 at 3100fps, soon as I ship it to the lab.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Oh are you the Anon who has been trying to recreate LIBA?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Unless I got a doppelganger, yes

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                nice plate.

                what materials are that? boron carbide or silicon nitride bearings? what kinda backing material? UHMWPE, basalt and/or aramid?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Silicon Carbide/ Titanium diboride pellets backed by UHMWPE.
                I havent seen enough regarding basalt fiber in ballistic applications. I might try out S2 glass as a backing material for a lower cost plate, since it has similar tensile strength to basalt fiber but with a much better elongation to failure.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                you could also look into UHMWPP/Innegra if you do another version, it is even stronger than UHMWPE.

                >picrel

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No, it's not, though. UHMWPE is stronger than Innegra, by far

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Basalt/UHMWPE composites have been reported in the literature with improved high velocity impact performance over the individual materials: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0263822318345203

                of course, adding magnetically stirred carbide and oxide powders to your resin will also increase performance significantly for fibers.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Swedish "Penguin", is that you?
                - C.S.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No, but he had some neat insights into Swedish armor in general, helped me update a few points on the spookplate chart too. Pretty sure you can summon him by fawning over NFM in /gq/.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                what dopants are typically (or even atypically) being used? (besides diamond powder, of course)

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Interesting design that was ahead of its time, and thus fell victim to the shortfalls in technology at the time

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Maybe just remove the plates?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      TRVKE

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    it's a conspiracy by big wheelchair

    >picrel

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      lmao, that's exactly what I was thinking

      You'd survive a potentially fatal shot through the lungs, heart, or liver, but a paralyzing shot through the waist? You're shit outta luck

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Like like the ADA

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    AA

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    There's an Anon that's working on making a pattern for a PASGT among others.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    IDK about the PAGST stuff but I'm doing something to make the BDUs and pants lighter (weight). Take some ideas from the Aircrew jacket and pants but don't go so extreme everything fades quite so fast and straight to brown and gets a hole in it and the stitches rip out if you look at it wrong like the Aircrew stuff. Less velcro and no more 30 layer thick elbows and knees. Fine mesh vents where they're needed, for the love of god. Make the shirt/jacket something other than button up to keep bugs out and make it out of a less rough material. I love M81 but my love for it is going to kill me some day.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Dude just rock out with your 50/50 BDUs. Drop the lower blouse pockets and slap them up on the sleeves. I did a shit ton of nonsense in there of BDUs and the reinforcement on the uniform does make a difference long term. Just make sure you don’t get your hydration canteen and your piss canteen mixed up.

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Sew on inserts for SAPI plates on the front and rear like RBA vests maybe?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That would likely impede basic functionality since you can' take off the vest so easily

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Add a pouch on the inside and outside of the front to insert potentially two layers of level III ceramic
    Nothing in the back

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Are the pockets on the PASGT vest even remotely useful?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      They can fit one individual STANAG mag, or maybe a small notebook or map

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        The loops sewn on above the pockets are spaced to take ALICE keepers so you can attach any ALICE lbe pouch there too. Probably not enough clearance for a mag pouch, but a good place for the old IFAK and compass pouch.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        That's it?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          It's meant to be worn with LBE Anon.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      They can carry radios.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Also snacks.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          True dat

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      sometimes

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I used to carry my cell phone in mine for easier access

      t. NG

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I stuck ration snacks in mine

  14. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This might be a moronic question but come RBAs weren't originally made with backplates? Seems like a pretty obvious design oversight to me.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Cost. Ceramic rifle plates were much more expensive back then than they are today. The contract for the Gen 1 RBA worked out to cost around $1600 each in 2024 dollars. Adding a rear plate would have made them cost over 2 grand. In comparison the contact for IBA got it down to under $1000 each in today's money.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        How'd they manage to shave so much off the price while increasing protection? Was it just that plates became more common?

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Scale definitely factors in but I'm sure they got cheaper to make in general too. Ceramic rifle plates date back to the late 60's with the variable body armor study. One of those would cost almost $6k today. So there is a pretty constant trend of cost decreasing over time.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Is that the "chicken plate" armor from Vietnam?

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              it's a direct evolution of it afaik

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              No its the Variable body armor for ground troops. picrel is the chicken plate. Both were developed by Natick around the same time but they are different systems and use different plates. Chicken plates were alumina oxide with fiberglass backers. The variable armor plates were boron carbide.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                moron question, what's the little pouch in the front for?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Its a utility pouch. Since the armor is for aircrews they would probably put shit like a map and compass in there.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                thx

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                cool

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Increased production

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Cost mostly

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Wasn't an oversight, they were just cheap

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You just described INIBA. You add a fricking plate.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      cool

  16. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Guys, what if someone took those cooling systems pilots and furries use to stay cool, streamline it down to fit under a vest with the cooling system mounted on the soldiers back.

  17. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >ctrl F
    >search LWH
    >No matches.
    The Marine Corps already modernized the helmet, it's called the LWH. essentially the same construction and advancements of the ACH with the form of the PASGT. ligma

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      OP is talking about the PASGT vest, not the helmet.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        oh frick

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Can I wear an old school PASGT cover on an LWH?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I own one and I'm pretty sure you can't. All the ones I tried were too small, and it's a different attachment system. PASGT had some kinda tie-on thing, LWH is like the ACH and MICH with a velcro thing inside.
        This does mean you can force new covers over the LWH, the brim means they don't fit exactly since they're made for the brimless ones but they will fit with a lot of swearing.
        For some reason it really reminds me of those SS helmets with the early camo covers like this.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Anyone produced covers for the LWH in patterns besides MARPAT?

          My impression is that basically only the Marines and Navy use it so it doesn't get much in the way of accessories?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Honestly I have no clue, most pics I find of it online are it being used without a cover at all. I've thought about MARPAT though, haven't tried one of those covers on it yet.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Mike's militaria has a run of helmet covers in fun patterns its compatible with PASGT and ACH so it should work on a LWH.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Cool

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You can nig-rig ACH covers to fit over the LWH or upgraded PASGTs. I use a woodland ACH cover on my PASGT, though I had to cut holes in the cover for BLSS kit's chinstrap loops because the spacing of the screw holes and chinstrap connection points is obviously different when you put them on a bigger helmet.
            Drawstring covers will also fit over pretty much anything you put them on, provided that they aren't too big or too small.
            On a related note, the ECH can also use ACH covers no problem despite being a thicker helmet.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Thank Christ they changed the chin straps at least

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I mean it's basically just the ACH but they kept the brim, given that the ACH is a PASGT with no brim in form.
        And I prefer that, I like the brim. It has all the same advantages of a more modern helmet, it's Level IIIa and has some more modern amenities like the straps and velcro. Even now they're not too expensive on Fort Bragg's surplus site, though they've increased a bit since I bought mine. I'd still recommend it if you need a lid or just want PASGT soul without having to actually use a 40+ year old helmet that only protects against 9mm.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          New helmets are being made with the PASGT shape so you don't have to buy a surplus LWH. You can even get them made of UHMWPE.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Just looked around and what I'm seeing looks more expensive than the surplus LWHs for the same protection level (and the outdated PASGT chinstrap for some reason).
            I'll stick to what I've got unless there's a Level IV, modern strapping highly preferable.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Not sure where you're looking but check out Highcom and PGD. Both make PASGTs and they use ACH style retention and pads. New helmets are going to be more expensive than surplus. But hey, they're new.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I've just checked them, but it seems to be an even worse example of what I talked about. Their helmets are Level IIIa and are a lot more expensive than the LWHs are.
                I just want to clarify, the LWH on Fort Bragg's site is less than 200 dollars and it has all the same offerings as these. It's not the fact that they cost between 500 and 900 dollars, but the fact that the exact same thing can be had for a lot less elsewhere.
                In any case, it's not really an item that's even on my list anymore, I'm just trying to help other anons who for some reason haven't been preparing for the last 8+ years. What I really do need is new soft inserts for my IBA or some similar full-coverage soft armor that will accept plates. So far it seems my best option for shrapnel at the moment would be to wear my plate carrier over my Vietnam-era flak jacket, which I'm not too sure is still viable.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It's not quite that simple Anon. NIJ doesn't had a modern test for helmets so Level IIIa isn't a certification, more like loose guidance. Not all of those helmets are the same. Reputable brands publish the performance characteristics so you can compare. I think it's usually better to just buy a surplus LWH but if someone wants something new with modern performance an a warranty, they are there.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Is there a situation where you're alive to invoke the warranty on a helmet primarily designed to protect against small objects traveling at roughly the speed of sound? I'd assume that if it doesn't do its job you won't have much time to realize that.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                There's more reasons than getting shot in the head that might cause you to want to make a warranty claim on your kit. If you wear your kit it will wear. The suspension system will fray, the finish will get scuffed. You will drop it and knock into things. Shit gets damaged. PASGT doesn't work well with active ear pro so its probably not the helmet you want to use the most. If I were buying for larp id get surplus. If I was buying a helmet to protect my head I'd want a new one it for any reason because I know the provenance and condition.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >PASGT doesn't work well with active ear pro so its probably not the helmet you want to use the most.
                ?
                Mine seems to work fine, no different than it's brimless brothers in that regard.

                Yes.

                [...]
                The ACH/MICH helmet is a bit more than just a PASGT without the brim. MSA made ones that are a PASGT without a brim for the French Army and they're a bit different and larger.

                The brim removal is to make mounting night vision and thermal goggles easier.

                In that case, the LWH might also be more of an ACH/MICH with a brim, it also seems to run larger than the PASGT.
                >The brim removal is to make mounting night vision and thermal goggles easier.
                Alright I'll give you that one. I considered getting one of those from my local surplus store as a backup in case I want optics on it (I don't really want to drill holes in my beloved helmet), but sadly it seems they closed down sometime after February. Hope they're ok, the owner was a cool guy and was always nice to me.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >PASGT doesn't work well with active ear pro

                What model of Earpro are you wearing?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I have a few pair but my primary are some peltor sports they fit under an ACH. A little snug but they work.

                >PASGT doesn't work well with active ear pro so its probably not the helmet you want to use the most.
                ?
                Mine seems to work fine, no different than it's brimless brothers in that regard.
                [...]
                In that case, the LWH might also be more of an ACH/MICH with a brim, it also seems to run larger than the PASGT.
                >The brim removal is to make mounting night vision and thermal goggles easier.
                Alright I'll give you that one. I considered getting one of those from my local surplus store as a backup in case I want optics on it (I don't really want to drill holes in my beloved helmet), but sadly it seems they closed down sometime after February. Hope they're ok, the owner was a cool guy and was always nice to me.

                You can cram slimmer ones in but the helmet wasn't meant for it so its usually a squeeze. The common walkers and impact sports usually don't fit.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                It is a little tough to fit mine in I'll admit, but it's not because of the helmet itself. The strapping doesn't really lend itself to fitting around them. Ironically, a PASGT style chin strap would actually work better with earpros, but I do prefer the snug and secure fit that the more modern ACH-style straps provide.
                I do have some of those combat-style earplugs, but I'm not sure how well those protect against stuff over pistols by themselves. At my range they normally require double protection, earpros over plugs.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                The army peltor earplugs are actually garbage. I think there was a lawsuit about them. I usually double up with foams and active ears.

                https://i.imgur.com/k6Ht52D.jpeg

                [...]
                Got it in desert DPM with the soft filler and plates then swapped the armor into an unissued MTP cover.

                What are the plates rated for. They seem pretty small. How do they compare to SAPI in dimensions? Can you cram a SAPI in the pocket?

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              There is a level 4 helmet, called the Striker Arditi but it's spensy

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                lol, it's not "Level 4." It's not even "Level 3," because it won't stop M80 Ball within the deformation limit. It won't stop M855, either. It's basically a $3000 ECH, and totally moronic.

  18. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why does the helmet cover look so weird?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's an early experimental cover before they nailed down the right shape for it. Prior to that they experimented with factory applied camo straight on the shell but they decided replacing simple cloth covers was cheaper and easier than having to repaint the whole helmet after it got scratched up.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Prior to that they experimented with factory applied camo straight on the shell but they decided replacing simple cloth covers was cheaper and easier than having to repaint the whole helmet after it got scratched up.

        Also extends the life of the helmet since the cloth protects it from the elements.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        dork

  19. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There is literally an armor upgrade to the pasgt called "Interim Small Arms Protective Overvest (ISAPO)"

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Cool name

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Interim

      I take it this means they were already working on a plate carrier design then?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        yeah the interceptor

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Holy shit Anon learn to read. We talked about ISAPO, RBA and all the rest weeks ago.

  20. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    moronic question, what vest is this?

    At first I thought it was an RBA, but now I'm thinking an ISAPO because its shape seems off.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Hard to tell from the angle and lighting. ISAPO is basically a minimalistic plate carrier in woodland. I don't think he's wearing ISAPO because its meant to be worn over PASGT and its clear he isn't wearing one of those.

  21. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    This fricking thread has been in the catalog for 25 days! Is that a new record?
    Good discussion, though. I think that the military's current MSV system ought to be modernized, too.

    • 1 week ago
      Anonymous

      Nah, we’ve had a couple that got past the 30 day mark

    • 1 week ago
      Anonymous

      Last month there was a entirely shitpost thread about memes that stayed on the catalog for a full 30 days.

  22. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    I don't know why thsi thread is still up a month later. We did get IBA already in 1999.

    • 1 week ago
      Anonymous

      Was the dick plate any good?

      • 1 week ago
        Anonymous

        It's not a plate. Just a soft panel. And you do appreciate it at least when an IED goes off next to you.

        • 1 week ago
          Anonymous

          But can it stop

          • 1 week ago
            Anonymous

            >Anti-tank football to the groin

            Grim

            • 1 week ago
              Anonymous

              Surely there’s a video of that from Ukraine

  23. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    Pasgt era had so much sovl.

    • 1 week ago
      Anonymous

      Dafuq is Joe Biden wearing under his vest?

      • 1 week ago
        Anonymous

        >he doesn't know about the 90s high fashion that was Starter Jackets
        Fricking Zoomers

  24. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    Hundreds of pouches for palm sized ceramic tiles. Think Dragon Skin but without the glue that failed in hot conditions.

    • 1 week ago
      Anonymous

      No, go back to your dark crevice.

  25. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    All you people are fricking idiots, obviously you have to release reports about underfunding and poor conditions and God forbid not enough troops to defend this country and a recruiting crisis. Then you stage a false flag so the reserves get activates and Lord almighty, they might even conscript people. And then you get more funding, because all of a sudden you're at war. Just make sure that the people who "intentionally attack us civilians and/or military assets" can't actually fight you back. Also make sure that while you're at it you pocket funding from oil executives so you can have a long wonderful political career and be extremely rich.

    Now you can issue the PASGTs, but in desert shitstain camo, and you can begin producing IBAs for the people to wear whenever they're on television. And they still issue those IBAs to this very day.

  26. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    just add alice style attachment points for more mag pouches and stuff and maybe a sleeve for body armor. Add some mounts on the helmet too.

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