It had to be nerfed in order to fit the gun, I dont know what else to tell you on that
It is a pretty good idea, but I feel like it could have been executed better, the design was supposed to be extremely compact, which it is, but I think a larger 5.56 version would be interesting to see
FN's bid was supposed to replace 9mm SMGs and people stuck in the terminology or thought "personal defense weapon" was a dumb name called the P90 a submachine gun instead.
The round's literally designed from the ground up over NATO's fears at the time that the Soviets would paradrop the VDV with body armor to pillage supply lines.
OP may be a dumb Black person, but he has a point. What purpose does the P90 serve in 5.7? It's still not concealable by any definition of the word. It's only 7" shorter than a Mk18 (which actually shoots a proper rifle cartridge) and PDWs always were a complete meme from the start because, guess what, SMGs already existed and filling the gap between them and assault rifles is utterly irrelevant.
>It's still not concealable by any definition of the word.
and you're basing this off of what?
that weapon has more time being concealed than almost any other submachine gun in history. The secret service conceal them under their suits, many nations security service use them to guard HVTs.
>he fell for the spy movie and fuddlore garbage
You clearly don't know what concealable means, you fricking clown. A P90 is only marginally shorter than a full length 20" barrel AUG (which again shoots a proper rifle cartridge at proper rifle velocities).
>wait till I tell this moron that there are commercial 15" AUG barrels that infinitely outperform 5.7 in any P90 configuration and take it to about the same length footprint
And there could easily have been even shorter barrel configs like 10.3" with potentially even shorter LOPs if the morons back in the late 70's had looked into tweaking an already existing and superior platform instead of inventing an entirely new one with an underpowered proprietary cartridge that never took off except in muh vidya and mallninjas staning their shitty meme 5/7s.
>PDWs always were a complete meme from the start because, guess what, SMGs already existed and filling the gap between them and assault rifles is utterly irrelevant.
Problem is things like SMG's get old and worn out, most of those SMG's were made in the 50's and 60's. So since you are going to be making a next gen SMG anyway, why not increase the range, penetration and ammo capacity? That is more or less what the P90 accomplished, it is the next gen SMG. The real reason it's not more mainstream military weapon is I think 3. fold.
1. most people realized that their own assault rifles were either short enough or could be made shorter to fulfill the role so no need to introduce a new weapon.
2. body armor has become so much more common incentivizing the use of more powerful short barreled rifles over it even if they are a little bigger.
3. just using your main rifle cartridge doesn't introduce a new round into the supply chain.
So it's not so much that there is a gap to be filled between SMG's and assault rifles, it's that the P90 is an objectively better SMG introduced in a time where SMG's are dying.
>it's that the P90 is an objectively better SMG in a time where SMG's are dying.
Slightly less obsolete is still obsolete.
>wait till I tell this moron that there are commercial 15" AUG barrels that infinitely outperform 5.7 in any P90 configuration and are still significantly longer
FTFY
Black person that pic is the difference between >will fit between a grown man's (6'+) armpit and belt
and >won't fit even if you try to stick it down your pants
>marginally shorter
That's a pretty big margin there bud.
Now if we're talking the rare as frick 14" barrel AUG's, then you've got something more comparable.
Because you like bullpups and have enough money to own several guns of that type. Which is fine, if I could afford to own and shoot both of these rifles I would. Even if I'd rather get an MDR first since I like the trigger and the form factor better.
because he's an idiot and an AUG fanboy that can't get over anyone using different guns than the ones he loves.
Nah, you are the freakshow morons with the Black person tier reading comprehension. I clearly said it was a full length AUG with a 20 inch barrel and, as such, it‘s only 7 inches longer or so. Obviously the difference becomes negligible when you start putting a 15 inch barrel carbine version next to it. I used it because it was the best side by side comparison I could find.
>as such, it‘s only 7 inches longer or so
a FULL length AUG with a 20" barrel is almost 31+ inches, P90 is 19"
why do you keep lying to attempt to validate your claim?
just admit you're completely moron, and have no idea what you're talking about.
>PDWs always were a complete meme from the start because, guess what, SMGs already existed and filling the gap between them and assault rifles is utterly irrelevant.
Problem is things like SMG's get old and worn out, most of those SMG's were made in the 50's and 60's. So since you are going to be making a next gen SMG anyway, why not increase the range, penetration and ammo capacity? That is more or less what the P90 accomplished, it is the next gen SMG. The real reason it's not more mainstream military weapon is I think 3. fold.
1. most people realized that their own assault rifles were either short enough or could be made shorter to fulfill the role so no need to introduce a new weapon.
2. body armor has become so much more common incentivizing the use of more powerful short barreled rifles over it even if they are a little bigger.
3. just using your main rifle cartridge doesn't introduce a new round into the supply chain.
So it's not so much that there is a gap to be filled between SMG's and assault rifles, it's that the P90 is an objectively better SMG introduced in a time where SMG's are dying.
Submachineguns are weapons generally smaller then a conventional rifle while firing pistol caliber rounds and being automatic/capable of select fire.
The P90 meets literally all of those qualifiers. It's a pretty compact gun firing a pistol caliber round and is capable of select fire. Just because the round is pointy or capable of penetrating armor doesn't mean it's not a pistol caliber round.
A PDW on the other hand is basically a giant catch all marketing term for anything that is somewhat smaller then a conventional rifle or carbine yet larger then a pistol with almost no unifying characteristics between them besides being somewhat smaller. After all a flux braced Glock or 320 has basically nothing in common with say a Mk18.
In the end, it's only a matter of semantics. Several groups have used the P90 in an offensive role in CQB, and that's probably where it shines the most, so the PDW term isn't really fitting. The perfect PDW weapon IMO would be a select fire automatic pistol chambered in 5.7, with a folding stock and a small foregrip to help controlling the recoil, and maybe an extended mag to hold more than 20 rounds. Easily concealable under a jacket and packing a lot of firepower, basically a steroided Vz61. Also the ATF worst nightmare.
it isnt meant to compete with 5.56, its meant to replace 9mm in every way except maybe suppression. 50 round mag in a compact package, with rounds that perform equal to or better than 9mm is pretty nice. >muh sbr
yeah you'd get more energy, but once 5.7 is coming out of a 10in barrel or longer its going fast enough to tear shit up with its tumbling (2,550ft/s for ss195lf common 28g FN ammo, and 3,100ft/s for the rarer and overpriced elite ammo S4) so i feel good enough about it. i love my p90, its effective while looking cool.
In a world where nobody has effective personal body armor the SMG is pretty much the ideal weapon, which is why it's so prevalent from the 1940s to the early 1990s. Controllable, fully automatic fire in a smaller package is great, especially for the troops who aren't going to be on the front very often and you don't want lugging around a rifle, but you want to have more than a pistol to defend themselves.
By the time the 80s roll around, Kevlar has been invented, and militaries have started to equip their soldiers with soft body armor systems sufficient to defeat pistol rounds. (PASGT in the US, 6B2/3 in Soviet Union, etc). So people starts looking into how to upgrade their SMGs to defeat these threats.
Enter the P90 and the 5.7 SS190 round, developed in the 80s and state of the art in 1990. Great for what it's designed to do, which is to allow a rear-echelon soldier to put down a VDV paratrooper by defeating their 6b3 armor with its 20 layers of aramid and 1.5 mm of titanium.
The problem is that the window where this is a good solution rapidly closes, because armor development kicks into high gear at this point. By the mid-2000s, everyone has developed and issued armor with ballistic plates that can stop at least one hit with basic ball rifle ammo, and can shrug off any amount of hits from anything you can fire out of a pistol SMG. (Interceptor in the US, 6B23 in Russia).
>a rear-echelon soldier to put down a VDV paratrooper
thats not true, the rest is though. the paratroopers had armor at that point that could take 5.56
>Great for what it's designed to do, which is to allow a rear-echelon soldier to put down a VDV paratrooper by defeating their 6b3 armor with its 20 layers of aramid and 1.5 mm of titanium.
ha ha ha you fool you've activated my trap card
Submachineguns are weapons generally smaller then a conventional rifle while firing pistol caliber rounds and being automatic/capable of select fire.
The P90 meets literally all of those qualifiers. It's a pretty compact gun firing a pistol caliber round and is capable of select fire. Just because the round is pointy or capable of penetrating armor doesn't mean it's not a pistol caliber round.
A PDW on the other hand is basically a giant catch all marketing term for anything that is somewhat smaller then a conventional rifle or carbine yet larger then a pistol with almost no unifying characteristics between them besides being somewhat smaller. After all a flux braced Glock or 320 has basically nothing in common with say a Mk18.
5.56 is already an "intermediate" round. You make it smaller, it's a pistol round. You put a pistol round in a short form stocked gun that can toggle to auto fire, it's a submachine gun.
It’s one of the only guns that definitively fits the PDW descriptor.
I don’t know what the length cut off is for a cartridge to be full size, but intermediate is somewhere underneath 7.62x51, and 5.7x28 is definitely pistol caliber.
you answered the question already in your single fricking sentence.
It had to be nerfed in order to fit the gun, I dont know what else to tell you on that
It is a pretty good idea, but I feel like it could have been executed better, the design was supposed to be extremely compact, which it is, but I think a larger 5.56 version would be interesting to see
FN's bid was supposed to replace 9mm SMGs and people stuck in the terminology or thought "personal defense weapon" was a dumb name called the P90 a submachine gun instead.
The round's literally designed from the ground up over NATO's fears at the time that the Soviets would paradrop the VDV with body armor to pillage supply lines.
yes, pistol rounds are nerfed rifle rounds you dumbass
"PDW" was not in the lexicon when it was introduced. If it were introduced now it would be called a PDW, and calling it a PDW is becoming more common.
OP may be a dumb Black person, but he has a point. What purpose does the P90 serve in 5.7? It's still not concealable by any definition of the word. It's only 7" shorter than a Mk18 (which actually shoots a proper rifle cartridge) and PDWs always were a complete meme from the start because, guess what, SMGs already existed and filling the gap between them and assault rifles is utterly irrelevant.
>It's still not concealable by any definition of the word.
and you're basing this off of what?
that weapon has more time being concealed than almost any other submachine gun in history. The secret service conceal them under their suits, many nations security service use them to guard HVTs.
>he fell for the spy movie and fuddlore garbage
You clearly don't know what concealable means, you fricking clown. A P90 is only marginally shorter than a full length 20" barrel AUG (which again shoots a proper rifle cartridge at proper rifle velocities).
that is significantly shorter, anon.
>wait till I tell this moron that there are commercial 15" AUG barrels that infinitely outperform 5.7 in any P90 configuration and take it to about the same length footprint
And there could easily have been even shorter barrel configs like 10.3" with potentially even shorter LOPs if the morons back in the late 70's had looked into tweaking an already existing and superior platform instead of inventing an entirely new one with an underpowered proprietary cartridge that never took off except in muh vidya and mallninjas staning their shitty meme 5/7s.
>it's that the P90 is an objectively better SMG in a time where SMG's are dying.
Slightly less obsolete is still obsolete.
>wait till I tell this moron that there are commercial 15" AUG barrels that infinitely outperform 5.7 in any P90 configuration and are still significantly longer
FTFY
You're a big dumby dum-dumb
>marginally shorter
>by an entire 12"
the only clown here is you, my sweet little seething saltbag moron.
Black person that pic is the difference between
>will fit between a grown man's (6'+) armpit and belt
and
>won't fit even if you try to stick it down your pants
>marginally shorter
That's a pretty big margin there bud.
Now if we're talking the rare as frick 14" barrel AUG's, then you've got something more comparable.
its so strange, every ps90/p90 owner i know including myself owns an aug as well. wonder why that is
Because you like bullpups and have enough money to own several guns of that type. Which is fine, if I could afford to own and shoot both of these rifles I would. Even if I'd rather get an MDR first since I like the trigger and the form factor better.
AUGs are nice, and if you have the cash money for a P90 system you have the cash for an AUG system.
While I don't have an AUG (maybe someday), I do have a x95 and RFB, if that matters.
Why would you post a picture that runs completely counter to your point?
because he's an idiot and an AUG fanboy that can't get over anyone using different guns than the ones he loves.
Nah, you are the freakshow morons with the Black person tier reading comprehension. I clearly said it was a full length AUG with a 20 inch barrel and, as such, it‘s only 7 inches longer or so. Obviously the difference becomes negligible when you start putting a 15 inch barrel carbine version next to it. I used it because it was the best side by side comparison I could find.
>this level of cope
Just admit you were moronic.
I'll admit I fricked ya mudda
>as such, it‘s only 7 inches longer or so
a FULL length AUG with a 20" barrel is almost 31+ inches, P90 is 19"
why do you keep lying to attempt to validate your claim?
just admit you're completely moron, and have no idea what you're talking about.
>PDWs always were a complete meme from the start because, guess what, SMGs already existed and filling the gap between them and assault rifles is utterly irrelevant.
Problem is things like SMG's get old and worn out, most of those SMG's were made in the 50's and 60's. So since you are going to be making a next gen SMG anyway, why not increase the range, penetration and ammo capacity? That is more or less what the P90 accomplished, it is the next gen SMG. The real reason it's not more mainstream military weapon is I think 3. fold.
1. most people realized that their own assault rifles were either short enough or could be made shorter to fulfill the role so no need to introduce a new weapon.
2. body armor has become so much more common incentivizing the use of more powerful short barreled rifles over it even if they are a little bigger.
3. just using your main rifle cartridge doesn't introduce a new round into the supply chain.
So it's not so much that there is a gap to be filled between SMG's and assault rifles, it's that the P90 is an objectively better SMG introduced in a time where SMG's are dying.
If you have the same kinetic energy as 9mm, you ain't an intermediate cartridge.
>they made Vash's gun a .22 instead of .45lc
two nukes weren't enough
.308 submachinegun when
HK51K
>HK51K
AKA the automatic flashbang machine.
In the end, it's only a matter of semantics. Several groups have used the P90 in an offensive role in CQB, and that's probably where it shines the most, so the PDW term isn't really fitting. The perfect PDW weapon IMO would be a select fire automatic pistol chambered in 5.7, with a folding stock and a small foregrip to help controlling the recoil, and maybe an extended mag to hold more than 20 rounds. Easily concealable under a jacket and packing a lot of firepower, basically a steroided Vz61. Also the ATF worst nightmare.
it isnt meant to compete with 5.56, its meant to replace 9mm in every way except maybe suppression. 50 round mag in a compact package, with rounds that perform equal to or better than 9mm is pretty nice.
>muh sbr
yeah you'd get more energy, but once 5.7 is coming out of a 10in barrel or longer its going fast enough to tear shit up with its tumbling (2,550ft/s for ss195lf common 28g FN ammo, and 3,100ft/s for the rarer and overpriced elite ammo S4) so i feel good enough about it. i love my p90, its effective while looking cool.
In a world where nobody has effective personal body armor the SMG is pretty much the ideal weapon, which is why it's so prevalent from the 1940s to the early 1990s. Controllable, fully automatic fire in a smaller package is great, especially for the troops who aren't going to be on the front very often and you don't want lugging around a rifle, but you want to have more than a pistol to defend themselves.
By the time the 80s roll around, Kevlar has been invented, and militaries have started to equip their soldiers with soft body armor systems sufficient to defeat pistol rounds. (PASGT in the US, 6B2/3 in Soviet Union, etc). So people starts looking into how to upgrade their SMGs to defeat these threats.
Enter the P90 and the 5.7 SS190 round, developed in the 80s and state of the art in 1990. Great for what it's designed to do, which is to allow a rear-echelon soldier to put down a VDV paratrooper by defeating their 6b3 armor with its 20 layers of aramid and 1.5 mm of titanium.
The problem is that the window where this is a good solution rapidly closes, because armor development kicks into high gear at this point. By the mid-2000s, everyone has developed and issued armor with ballistic plates that can stop at least one hit with basic ball rifle ammo, and can shrug off any amount of hits from anything you can fire out of a pistol SMG. (Interceptor in the US, 6B23 in Russia).
>a rear-echelon soldier to put down a VDV paratrooper
thats not true, the rest is though. the paratroopers had armor at that point that could take 5.56
True, but nobody in the West knew that at the time.
>Great for what it's designed to do, which is to allow a rear-echelon soldier to put down a VDV paratrooper by defeating their 6b3 armor with its 20 layers of aramid and 1.5 mm of titanium.
ha ha ha you fool you've activated my trap card
?t=351
i usually just go with homosexuals delight or piece of shit
Submachineguns are weapons generally smaller then a conventional rifle while firing pistol caliber rounds and being automatic/capable of select fire.
The P90 meets literally all of those qualifiers. It's a pretty compact gun firing a pistol caliber round and is capable of select fire. Just because the round is pointy or capable of penetrating armor doesn't mean it's not a pistol caliber round.
A PDW on the other hand is basically a giant catch all marketing term for anything that is somewhat smaller then a conventional rifle or carbine yet larger then a pistol with almost no unifying characteristics between them besides being somewhat smaller. After all a flux braced Glock or 320 has basically nothing in common with say a Mk18.
5.56 is already an "intermediate" round. You make it smaller, it's a pistol round. You put a pistol round in a short form stocked gun that can toggle to auto fire, it's a submachine gun.
Cause it's a SMG? It's like asking why people call an AK or G36 an assault rifle when it's firing a nerfed 7.62x54r or 7.62x52
>nerfed 5.56 round
But 5.7 > 5.56?
because 5.56 is a machine gun cartridge
>why smg when it fire pistol round
that's what submachinegun means, moron
It’s one of the only guns that definitively fits the PDW descriptor.
I don’t know what the length cut off is for a cartridge to be full size, but intermediate is somewhere underneath 7.62x51, and 5.7x28 is definitely pistol caliber.