Only 9 Abrams tanks were destroyed during the Gulf War out of 3,113 that were deployed.
Out of those 9, 7 were destroyed by friendly fire.
Only 9 Abrams tanks were destroyed during the Gulf War out of 3,113 that were deployed.
Only 9 Abrams tanks were destroyed during the Gulf War out of 3,113 that were deployed.
Out of those 9, 7 were destroyed by friendly fire.
They weren't even totally wrecked, they were just deemed knocked out. Could have been salvaged. There's a long report on the M1 and M2's performance in the Gulf War.
How'd the M2s do?
Quite well, however of the handful that were knocked out most of those were a total loss. Armor much thinner, and did not have the blowout panels and fuel compartmentalization of the Abrams
the US went into the conflict without any of the modern IFF panels and gen 1 thermals, sometimes in sandstorm conditions
You hear about so much friendly fire from that war it's amazing they decided it was a good idea to give troops optics that allow them to see across entire battlefields without knowing who they're actually looking.
Whoever dropped the ball there should have been hung
hanged*
No, he's trying to say that giving your infantry force multiplier optics but not the training or kit to use them effectively is a big dick move.
The best part is that if you take one out it doesn't catch on fire and cook the crew
survivability is a foreign concept to our barbarian horde geopolitical rivals
they just can't comprehend a world where those extra few hundred/thousand battle-hardened troops who survive an engagement might tip the scales in a long-term war
because they are retarded
>Out of those 9, 7 were destroyed by friendly fire.
Ameeriiicaaaaaaaa
Those 7 were a handicap for Saddam.
This is what Russian people think their military is doing in Ukraine
bros how did America get so good at war
Stupidly prosperous and advanced society.
Semitic influence
Mastered logistics after having to transport entire armies across the oceans
the US has had only 15 years of peace out of 244 years of it's existence
Khorne is pleased
When you love something you strive to be the best at it. America is the Tom Brady of war.
The Civil War basically taught us that war was becoming a contest of who could bring the most resources to bear. Combine that with the country's massive economic resources and it's really a no-brainer.
If nerds produce good R&D military tech they get paid out the ass. Lot of other reasons, I hate to say free journalism press but it plays a part. I remember when the Bush admin got pilloried for the lack of good body armor and vehicle armor. "Army that you have not the army that you want". Rumsfeld didn't get the boot then and there but I believe he left shortly thereafter, and unless the Bush admin started to try and remedy it they'd feel electoral pressure eventually. In Russia that'd never have happened. I mean the spinning dredel top that is the T72 has been likely known as an issue since the 80s if not 90s and it hasn't been fixed yet. We had IEDs causing problems for humvees and now we don't use them much anymore.
Having a stable and free society is almost always better in the long run. That includes a functioning press.
well that's gone
no. stop reading social media and go outside.
if you actually take some time to read articles and avoid opinion pieces there is still a lot of good journalism out there, the problem is the clickbait and devisive stuff is heavily incentivised because people just read headlines and outrage bait. There is also the big problem of large tech companies becoming a bigger and bigger part of public discourse and being pretty biased in which voices they allow on their platforns
That's been the seminal lesson from both this and China's chinkflu. For all our endless shitholes problems the fundamentals underlying it allow a much greater success than authoritarian shitholes do, who are universally potemkin villages. I mean the exact same
>Huh maybe a strong man fascism is the way of the future
idealism of the 20s and 30s was happening in the 2010s with people idolizing strongmen (like Trudeau idolizing Xi's dictatorship for how it can tackle climate change, or the obvious orange man bad blah blah blah) only to find out the strongmen live in a house of cards.
Ours is straining the credulity of functioning but it's still possible to access widespread and popular opposition media. The left is doing what it can to silence that kind of opposition, but we're not doomed just yet. On the way to it, but not yet.
More than anything it's a decline of that which I blame for our decline. You want to see something sad?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Belenko#:~:text=Viktor%20Ivanovich%20Belenko%20(Russian%3A%20%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80,George%20H.%20W.
> "[Americans] have tolerance regarding other people's opinion. In certain cultures, if you do not accept the mainstream, you would be booted out or might disappear. Here we have people—you know, who hug trees, and people who want to cut them down—and they live side by side!"
I think the internet has really fucked us up. Humans really weren't built to handle the type of interactions social media enables. In 25 years I think we'll be a lot more careful about the digital media we consime. Kind of like cigarettes we all know it's bad but exactly how bad is unclear.
If you believe the French it's because we harnessed the power of the Township
well that's gone
>t. Toqueville
>the power of the Township
What does this mean?
local governance instead of central authority
He's referring to Tocqueville's Democracy in America. Basically a French dude who visited the U.S. right after the revolution and commented on the society he found. He was particularly impressed by the New England township as a forum for dealing with problems and he felt the lessons it taught citizens would empower wider society.
It's a good book.
These guys
got the reference but
said it best. Honorable mention for
Democracy promotes competence
Democracies are always in a state of natural war. War for its existence, externally and internally, one must be ready to protect it at all times and not falter or the blade of a authoritarian will sink into you.
It is from this that we learn that Democracies are not inherently peaceful or cowardly, but the most natural state for any station to be ready for war of its existence.
Which is why i hope this war just turns into a super low intensity one that can focus most of our war energy for a while. If russia is neutralized as a threat d.c will start antagonizing beijing, maybe have another go at assad, who knows, there always has to be some great foe to hunt. It really is ceaseless
It really comes down to prosperity. Good quality of life attracts competent people who immigrate and contribute to their new nation. Competent people want to defend their good quality of life so naturally they will contribute to their security.
We're good at everything.
practice, practice, practice.
Money, airplane.
Money for airplanes
Pallet
delivering explosion is like delivering hamberder
I am usually ashamed to admit this on the internet as an American, but hamburgers are my favorite food. I had a hamburger for lunch today, and I will probably have another one tomorrow. I love hamberder.
I went to In n Out for dinner, dwai bro
Burgers are the future
cause every other country thinks like this
How does an entire society become so far beyond saving? Is it the inbreeding from being stuck on an island? Even my far-left, blue haired, anti-gun ex who idolizes the British and moved there from America could still see the value in having a thing of pepper spray on her keychain. I'm ashamed to share a language with them.
They weren't always like this; the bobbies might never have been armed, but civilians could and did carry pistols for self-defense for a long time. When did it change? Sometime between 1910 and 1950. It probably had something to do with the massive loss of life from the wars, and the subsequent socialist governments that destroyed many of their traditional freedoms, but I am not an expert in that area.
I think it's pointless to talk about commies taking freedoms away from people without mentioning the other groups that didn't reinstate said freedoms once in power
I dunno man, there's always been this strangely oriental thread of British subservience to authority. Not in terms of gun ownership but just as a general rule. It's very strange - this isn't to say that continentals were Egalitarian but that their people were far more rowdy and disagreeable about being proles. Not to say the English can't be rowdy, they just have this weird rowdiness yet acceptance of their place. Throw fists and thrash shit because mtumbu got a red card and that cost norf fc the match but happily take the most nanny state shit imaginable. Rather bit like orcs innit.
All the aggressive genes died in a trench, or moved to the US or Australia
We eugenically bred the hostile and violent members of our society over the last 1000ish years out by killing roughly 1-2% of the population every generation.
The learned helplessness of that culture is infuriating. Fucking cattle, and proud of it
am phoneposter, what do reddit comments say?
OP wants to institute a loicence to carry pepper spray for personal defence
>No, Britain is safe
>More weapons equals more crime
>Using it would be assault
>When people could own weapons in this country we had a mass shooting
Utterly mindbroken commitment to disarmed helplessness
They say you need to get a computer
Get Clover and stop outing yourself, dear God.
>use my chinese spyware app
how about no
we still know who phoneposters are, by the low quality of their posts
Retards will out themselves any day of the year wether they're posting from a TI-82 or the Google quantum computer. Phoneposters are a boogeyman just like the mysterious 12 year olds that can only touch a computer if they haven't been inside a school within 50 hours.
This reads like satire. The only thing that doesn't is the "extreme knee-jerk policies to statistically tiny evens are daft at the best of times" and you bet that would be said in an entirely different context in the US.
>Redditors are the average person in that country
I can bet with 100% certainty non of those people live around minorities. The Reddit population base is almost entirely white liberals living in white neighbourhoods that think the average black person is someone earning 45k a year doing design work, or their uni freinds.
these people are unironically right, but for the wrong reasons
No, not every other country is like that, the UK is just especially fucked with the amount of estrogen morons and shitskins
they're literally shit at it lol
/k/ope
It’s not that the US is good at war, everyone else is just that fucking bad at it.
logistics, production, power projection
the gulf war to me (the very wise armchair general) seemed like exactly what the US had been preparing for for the entirety of the cold war. A ground war against against a primarily soviet equipped large army
Non-stop counter natives insurgency, and all the irascibles from the Old World willing to fight and die to fuck off on their own.
The US has 1) the single largest GDP on the planet, 2) the most advanced technology on the planet (or can get it from allies), 3) learned the key elements of conventional warfare (combined arms and logistics) in WWII and has optimized for that ever since.
The US isn't as good at unconventional war, partly because of a value system that emphasizes the individual, which means that things like ethnic cleansing, and collective punishment are more or less unheard of in the last 80 years. Killing innocents doesn't sit right with John and Jane Q. Public, and getting caught doing so blatantly or en masse is a good way to lose public support for military actions.
Now, you can point to all kinds of underlying characteristics that brought this about, from the zeitgeist of individualism that flourished around the Founding, to the unique geography that put the world's largest breadbasket right on top of the world's longest system of interconnected navigable waterways, to the Protestant work ethic that formed in the US, to the immigration from Europe of classes that saw opportunity and accepted that work ethic as their own, to... all kinds of things.
History can be awfully funny at times. It's rarely just one thing that can be pointed to as the sole cause of a broad-reaching effect.
>Yeah bro, we could have won in Afghanistan if we'd just taken the gloves off and raised the eyebrow
Why do people think like this? The Soviets tried this, it didn't work any better.
dumb euro
US lost most of the wars it fought.
yuropean propaganda
L O D S O F E M O N E
We were the first to learn what modern war was like in the 1860s and have been building on that ever since, almost a 60 year head start from most of the other developed nations
Anglo supremacy
the Federal Reserve's monetary black magic has put us 1-2 generations ahead of every other nation on earth
>captcha XM0MMA
gib central banker milkies
Fucktons spent on R&D compared to other countries. Russia has barely any new technology that isn't just stolen or rebranded Western tech announced years ago. Same with China.
No Russian believes this, literally every Russian dude I know has given up faith in the war for months
The people you see shilling for Russia are mostly mutt/eurotrash 17 year old contrarians
>Those B-52s
Imagine getting bombed by someone that was 9 timezones away from you.
They took off from fucking Louisiana of all places, bombed a bunch of Saddam's forces in the ME halfway across the world, and were back home in time for dinner back in Barksdale, all in less than 48 hours. Insane stuff
that is pretty impressively low number considering the numbers deployed
If they are so good why is the US so afraid to send them to Ukraine? Is it because their numbers are all propaganda and Abrams would be absolutely demolished by T-90s and Armatas?
Yeah, that's it.
>Is it because their numbers are all propaganda
I’m actually trying to think about how this would work. Like, how could the Army lie to Congress about any large discrepancies in equipment losses.
I don’t think it’s as easy here as it is in mother Russia.
wait until lend lease kicks in october
>If they are so good why is the US so afraid to send them to Ukraine? Is it because their numbers are all propaganda and Abrams would be absolutely demolished by T-90s and Armatas?
They're a massive logistics sink; even worse than the T-80 under some circumstances (although probably not overall, since newer M1 models have APUs). It also takes time to train crews on them. It's the same reason Ukraine hasn't been given Leopard 2s, despite a number of European nations having them to spare.
>newer models
Abrams have had APUs since right after GW1, they just didn't get internal APUs until Iraq
Because that shit requires Training, which requires time and money. You can't just slap a bunch of soldiers in a tank, say "these are the controls, good luck" and expect them to be good.
You have to educate them on the little tricks and oddities so they can operate it without accidentally breaking shit. You have to make them understand the limitations of their vehicle so they don't charge into a situation the Abrams wasn't built for. You have to ingrain into their skulls every important detail about how the Abrams works so they can fix it if it ever gets damaged or stuck.
If you're going to spout propaganda regarding this war, then use your fucking brain so that you at least have a *CHANCE* at fooling someone.
>T-90s
The base T-90 is just a T-72 and the T-90M is pretty much as vapourware as the Armata
An M1A2 would munch through half a dozen T-90s
T-90M is in service, so it isn't really vapourware
Its a good tank, and makes everyone seethe.
You forgot the
>zero crew fatalities
blowout panels and spall liners will do that to a mf
Abrams has no spall liner. The crew wear body armour though
>Abrams has no spall liner.
a quick google search says that it does actually have a kevlar spall liner
even the M60A3 has spall liners
As far as I am aware, no Abrams recieved a spall liner, which you can confirm with your own eyes (maybe SEPv3 onwards and newer. Bradley recieved spall liner from the A2 onwards
only reference to M1s not having a spall liner is from a steel beast forum and an unsourced claim from another forum saying its armor didnt need a spall liner
every other source says it does have a spall liner
And also the fact that photos of an interior, don't show a spall liner
spall liners aren't exactly fuzzy coatings anon
it's a homogenous coat you retard, you're looking at the spall liner when you see the inside, it's not a fucking blanket fort like in your bedroom, you child
WHAT DOES THE REDDIT FROG HAVE TO DO WITH THAT?
WHAT DOES THE REDDIT FROG HAVE TO DO WITH THAT?
The expression on the reddif frog's face is that of disappointed disbelief.
>we need to make Pepe the frog gay so the far right stops using it
It’s even funnier that he refers to it as “the Reddit frog” when Reddit banned Pepe for “hate” years ago. It’s trying to associate something “alt right” posters use, with something they hate to discourage it’s spread.
Really 80 IQ campaign all around and blatantly inorganic.
The feds have had a hate boner for Pepe/frog posting since Hilary freaked out about it on television. I don’t get why they care? Maybe Keks real lmao?
So, Abrams is the best contemporary tank, correct?
Leopard 2
Merkava mk4
The Russian and Korean meme tanks
some other american tank
ZTZ-99 MBT
WHat is best? Why do WW2 tanks have so much more soul than flat-headed crab Abrams designs?
because in ww2 nobody knew what makes a good tank, everyone was just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what stuck. Heavy tanks, tank destroyers, light tanks, etc. were all made defunct by the MBT
>retard thinks sovl makes something good
>hy do WW2 tanks have so much more soul than flat-headed crab Abrams designs?
all MBTs have slab-sided designs to maximize protection afforded by NERA
WW2 tanks are made of steel, so you have more varied designs
cast armor is 10% weaker than welded but you can give it more complex shapes
rolled armor is tougher but can only take the form of wide flat sheets that need to be welded together like a puzzle
so every tank had different shapes based on manufacturing capabilities each country had, germans had more welders so they had more boxy tanks, US had massive casting facilities so they had more curve-y tanks, and so on
but modern tanks are all made of the same thing, deep NERA arrays on the outside and ceramic or DU on the inside
any varying geometry is covered up by the NERA, which prefers to be as wide and flat as possible
and modern guns can accurately hit up to 2km away, or 4km if they are able to take up good positions, so at such distances your tank will rarely show much of its side armor, so theres a much stronger preference for pentagonal designs as opposed to circular designs to maximize protection from a narrow arc
The M1 had flat surfaces because of how its then-new armor (Chobham) was built. Prior to the M1, all US tank turrets were rounded; not squat domes like Soviet MBTs, but complex shapes, generally cast instead of welded (which allowed for varying thicknesses at different points). Look at the M4, M26, M48, M60.
how the FUCK do you even begin explaining that your team just torched one of your own tanks???
when they get disabled the americans blow them up so they can't fall intact into enemy hands
gnomish operators
It's a good tank but the comparison with Ukraine, which is the elephant in the room, is moot.
Ukraine has used (and is using) multiple times t he AT arsenal of a first world country.
“Official numbers”
that's clearly Iraq not GW1, and some of those are repeats
Wrong war, silly.
and still not a single one of those suffered a catastrophic ammo detonation
Superiority of american weaponry and tactics is unquestionable
No challenger 2s have ever been destroyed by enemy fire.
This simple fact makes PrepHole seethe, mald and cope like nopthing else.
The main armour of a Challenger 2 has never been penetrated either. The blue on blue kill went through the commander's hatch and the RPG-29 hit the bottom of the lower glacis.
The size of the US contingent never ceases to amaze me.
>Battle of Norfolk
Allied losses
>American Sector:
21 killed
67 wounded
4 tanks destroyed
4 IFVs destroyed
Objective Dorset:
15 killed
27 wounded
3 tanks damaged
>British Sector:
15 killed (9 ff)
43 wounded
2 IFVs destroyed (both ff)
Allied gains
>American Sector:
937 captured
550 tanks destroyed
480 armoured vehicles destroyed
396 artillery pieces destroyed
Objective Dorset:
2,500 captured
300 tanks & IFVs destroyed
>British Sector:
7,000+ captured
300 tanks destroyed & captured
Heavy IFV losses
Heavy artillery losses
How does the Anglo do it?
I love reading stories about the other armoured vehicles in the Gulf like the Bradlies Lav25s Stormers and Scorpions. Any one have any?
Here's one of my favs, FV101 Scorpion
>Two personnel from the Queen's Royal Irish Hussars were injured when their Scorpion armoured reconnaissance vehicles were fired on by US M1 Abrams tanks. They had stopped to take the surrender of Iraqi troops, when one Scorpion was hit in the front by a round from a US M1 tank, firing from about 1500 m to the north. The driver escaped without injury, but a soldier walking alongside received shrapnel wounds.
>When the US personnel realised their mistake they assisted with the treatment of the injured British soldiers and their evacuation to hospital.
Imagine getting hit by a fucking 120mm cannon in a Scorpion and surviving lol, pic very much related.
Fuck, that looks fun.
I'm assuming the hit went in sideways?
Penned the front zipped past the driver and out the back lol
I think both the US and UK sometimes used training ammo for engagements so I'm guessing it was one of those or a Sabot, if it was a Heat round I guess it would have been obliterated.