This entire project is so idiotic it really calls into question how incompetent the military is and how poor the average persons judgment is given so many people still think it’s going to happen.
It makes literally NO sense.
-the entire purpose of small arms is for close range engagements, where higher fire power is what matters. If the target is at a longer range or is armored you would simply call it heavier weapons support as it could be safely used at longer distances. This is why the m14 was replaced by the m16 was replaced by the m4, they got smaller over time. Standardizing this would reduce fire power for long range use that isn’t necessary.
-It doesn’t make sense as a anti-armor rifle either. If the military needs something that pierces body armor, why not use the AP rounds they already have. I also haven’t seen proof the new round can even pierce level 4 body armor, which can reliably stop 7.62 so it’s pointless in that regard too.
-A main rifle equipped for longer ranges is a waste of capabilities. Most infantry aren’t competent to accurately hit human targets at a long distance.
-Combined with the new scope this will be the heaviest service rifle ever made standard. Given that the modern soldiers equipment and loads were already so heavy as back injury being a major issue, adding more pounds onto that is absurd.
It literally makes 0 rational sense for this to become the standard issue rifle replacing the m4. The only possible scenario that could explain it is if there was a major issue of an enemy with sub standard body armor but you wouldn’t want to standardize AP rounds either because you don’t have access to the material or don’t want them to be captured by the enemy and reverse engineered to be used against your own forces. But where would this scenario even realistically happen?
It’s not happening no matter what they say.
ok
Wow... you cracked the code... I'm calling the Pentagon.
>It literally makes 0 rational sense
Yes, but the boomers in charge have shepherded the whole project from early days based on gravelbelly memes older than 90% of posters on /k/. They don't care about modern combat or even lessons from GWOT, it's all a pre-WW1 Boer War meme to them
What were the lessons learned from the GEE WAT?
Same as learned in Algeria, or Mexico, or Syria, or any number of quasi-modern insurgencies: DMRs aren't a conventional peer war weapon. They're an 'overmatch' conventional forces resort to in the absence of their normal high explosive fires which remain inferior to standard SCHV rifles in conventional CQB.
sorry but the AR15 is fighting yesterdays wars, the m7 is looking to the future
you’re stuck in the past old man
>/k/ pre NGSW
>assault rifles are pea shooters, real men use Battle Rifles, you pea shhotes is gonna cost you life is STHF against mosin armed chuds!
>/k/ after NGSW
>I love me pea shooters, battle rifle is the boomer meme
And you know it's true. YOU asked for this and now you are crying.
Adopting the HK417 would have sufficed, no one asked for this
bullshit.
HK416 is not a battle rifle.
pathetic fucking bumpbait. have a nice day you absolute gorrila.
whats wrong booboo its halloween lighten up
>Adopting the HK417 would have sufficed
The 417 was a fucking disaster, it failed for a reason. It's why HK had J. Schatz going to every US agency he could pulling every trick in the book trying to get it procured.
>Adopting the HK417 would have sufficed,
But M7 has more range and penetration insane size. It's just better battle rifle.
If battle rifle good then M7 is even better.
not only is
partially correct, but pretending all of /k/ are the retards in /brg/ is pretty disingenuous, nobody would be tired of the AR/glock meta recommendations if we didn't recommend them all the fucking time.
I asked for 120kpsi Knox Engineering propellants in True Velocity neckless polymer cased cartridges firing M855A1 bullets from a 10" barrel in a M4A2 with 50 round mags. nagger
>can reliably stop 7.62 so
So? even the early 5.56 can outperform the (M80) 7.62 (slow and worse sectional density).
Hot snow falls up, too. 5.56 is comparatively "weak" to any full-caliber cartridge, and don't give me any hog-shit about some idealized tumbling.
>-A main rifle equipped for longer ranges is a waste of capabilities. Most infantry aren’t competent to accurately hit human targets at a long distance.
>-Combined with the new scope this will be the heaviest service rifle ever made standard. Given that the modern soldiers equipment and loads were already so heavy as back injury being a major issue, adding more pounds onto that is absurd.
Literally the point of the scope is to adress the issue you presented in the upper paragraph. Tests showed that even n00bs can reliably hit from 600 meters or something like that, after minimal or maybe even no training. I don't have the link on hand admittedly.
they can't, it's just a bdc scope with an idiot light and a rangefinder, garandthumb took all the cool out of it by showing us it's just a scope
it's just like the SCAR, coolguys will use the 5.56 version for a while, but only as a fashion statement when they have the opportunity, and not in serious numbers. I feel like the MPX is seriously underrated, as underrated for an smg design as the mcx/ spear are overrated.
>it's just a bdc scope with an idiot light and a rangefinder,
It also has a built in kestral for wind calculations. Its literally addressing the issues you're crying about.
>It also has a built in kestral for wind calculations
No it doesn't
>Tests showed that even n00bs can reliably hit from 600 meters or something like that, after minimal or maybe even no training.
Are you retarded? Do you even know what a target 600y away looks like
yeah it looks like a target thats at 548.64 meters away duh
You are not getting your basic grunt nailing bobbing and weaving infantry at 600m in a combat situation because they have a LPVO with a snazzed up BDC, end of.
What if you're just fucking wrong about everything you think?
Even if you fought and killed men, the odds are that you, like 99.6 percent of men involved in a war, understood nothing that happened to you and would make 9 mistakes for every 1 thing done right.
And here you are, having never fought, probably having never even fired a rifle. You've probably never yelled back at anyone. Yet you want to tell us what to buy and how to fight.
And what are you even mad about? You complain only about 2 things, when it comes down to it:
>Muh weight
>Muh recoil
>Muh too much power.
You're not bitching about logistics or the new reality of mobility. You're not mad that it can't help against drones or information warfare. You're not worried about tooling up new factories, new carry gear, new machine guns and replacement batteries. You don't even know if it can or can be accept a bayonet.
But somehow, we're wrong and you're right. So I'll ask again: what happens when you realize that you only have a few thoughts and each of them are built on lies and misunderstandings. And there's a whole world you never even thought about
>Muh recoil
>Muh too much power
Low quality bait
QRD?
>QRD?
Didn't make a belt fed for a competition designed to replace a belt fed and rifle. Bargained saying they were technically two different contracts and they could still win the rifle contract. Cried when people pointed out it was stupid to think that and it'd never happen. Seethed when Beretta bailed and said they were no longer going to produce the weapon for civilians when the contract turned out how everyone imagined. Coped on /k/ about sovl and how big army is full of meanies that couldn't handle a real bullpup like TV anyway.
Thanks for the QRD, Anon!
homosexual
Seconding that you're a homosexual
Fag
Cute kitty
Unfortunately they can't attach a bayonette
Are you mad that they replacing a rifle that is famous for larpers?
its essentially a short barrel dmr
tv lost, get over it
Idk its coming out of that barrel retardedly fast, even a bullet type similar to m855a1 where it's cheap AP is gonna defeat whatever shitty Chinese body armor they hand out. It obviously not the best rifle (I'm thinking scar H with the new ammo) but sig has the DOD by the balls.
This is the real answer lol. Sig is sucking someone off in government.
Having your gun adopted in RL is so fuckkng easy. So fucking easy.
1) stop giving a fuck about what your civ customers think of you
2) take a lap around the procurement office and talk to everyone, tell the groups of men you see “Boys you are looking good tonight!!” Then just walk away.
3) Shoot and have fun, tell other people to have fun,
4) Do another lap ask people if they are having fun tonight , remember to smile
5) Let time go by - The single men who are into you will begin to position themselves closer, strike up conversation the ice has already been broken twice, keep it light and fun, joke be silly. Ask them silly questions like “if you were stuck on a desert island and could only have one gun for the rest of your life what woukd it be?” “If you became disabled but were still able to shoot in one position for the rest of your life what would it be?”
6) the ones who are really interested ask for their number, hell in a group of 4 single men get them all who cares remember you stop giving a fuck at 1.
7) Have good bribing logistics, so it’s comfortable and easy to bring it home where you are.
Rinse and repeat. Im contracted and have a mansion now, wemt out Saturday and stopped at number 5, could have gotten paid by at least 4 HOTTIES in that place, its so fucking easy
Wow a pasta template from PrepHole. This is a deep cut.
outstanding work, anon.
>Text Ron employees seething to this day
Sad!
that was impressive, GJ bro. feelin fit?
After the shit show that was the next gen pistol contest, I could totally see Sig actively bribing someone in the Pentagon
I’ll let soldiers use it and die in the process. If in 10 years it turns out DOD was right, I’ll buy one. If they were wrong and got men killed in the process, who cares. Until then I’ll just be chilling with my 5.56 and 7.62x39 in the woods.
If they’re right give me a different rifle still lol. The caliber may be the right move but that rifle is fucking stupid.
Why does /k/ hate bullpups and loves the AR platform, but when it comes to NGSW it's suddenly the opposite?
It's not about bulpup, it's more expensive and heavier than anything in .308 on the market
I'm in denial
I think this is what they will end up deciding, the ballistics for a 13" barrel are retardedly good. I'm rooting for scar H or some variant of the sr-25
Anon... it's already been decided. SIG won. The SR-25 variant fell out at the first stage of the program.
If it is like the 5.56 version then the gun is fine imo (aside from it being a SIGGER product), got to try it out the other day. Wouldn't waste $3k on one myself though. It is not replacing my Block II AR15 anytime soon.
The 6.8 round they are going with is retarded though, just stick with 5.56. Maybe just give a designated marksman one of the 6.8 (or just .308) guns instead of a M14 EBR.
I want to know what the barrel life is for the 6.8 version
I am sure it isn't as long as a M4 if fired at the same rate.
I could maybe see it replacing the M4 for certain roles but I genuinely think it is retarded to replace all M4s with. Even the 5.56 version while perfectly fine as a rifle, just doesn't offer much that you don't already get with an AR15 to make it worth upgrading.
Battle rifles are not a bad idea, but it is a bad idea to equip everyone with a battle rifle. Again, it makes way more sense to issue like 1 or 2 per squad to fill a DMR role. As you pointed out though SIG is probably just running an embezzlement scheme anyway, otherwise Glock probably should have won over the 320.
>Again, it makes way more sense to issue like 1 or 2 per squad to fill a DMR role.
an army rifle squad is already crying out for more riflemen, the team only has ONE, two if you include the teamleader
giving that rifleman a battlerifle instead of a rifle would be fucking retarded, and i dont want to walk through the woods for days carrying this heavy piece of shit either
Shitty. Unless they have some super steel that is incredibly expensive it can’t last long
Some like 6.8x45 would make more sense , same case dimensions , bigger boolet , better penitration and ballistics , can easily convert a 5.55 rifle or mg to fire it , has the same capacity as a standard 5.56 rifle , it’s literally the perfect solution to the us’s qualms about 5.56
forward assist bros...
polymer magazine bros...
Is that a recent pic?
Just a few hours ago I saw a Tavor where the bipod was mounted on the bottom of the pistol grip. Having your -pod mounted in the middle of the rifle = new meta?
its just a display stand
The objectively best bipod position is as close to the muzzle as possible. The further it is from your body, the less your movement affects the point of aim. That Tavor bipod is primarily used so it doesn't get in the way of your support hand like a traditional bipod would on that gun.
More info on this. As a FA hater I’m interested in this.
keep seething manlet, its happening
If you think a battle rifle is a bad idea you're a retard. It's not, it's just that THIS battle rifle is a bad idea. They should've picked the bullpup, it was shorter for urban applications and had far less recoil. They went with this hunk of shit that's too long and recoil is insane. It's probably just a gov money embezzlement scheme anyway. There's no way anyone looked at this thing and went oh yeah that's a viable rifle. Even noobs can see how retarded it is.
the people who selected it will not be carrying it, nor will they be responsible for the performance of those that will carry it.
its replacing the M4
sig won
israelites won
barrel deflection doesnt affect accuracy
broken firing pins are good for you
indian made parts are good
covid jabs are safe and effective
love is love
>jab
Bong detected, opinion discarded
Short as shit
Can you get this shit as a civie? If so, is the build quality gonna be the same?
Yes.
No.
You will pay 8k dollops and get a shit ass budget nitride barrel for your trouble.
>pointless suppressor to avoid legal liability in soldier hearing loss
>hypermeme cartridge that requires strange bimetallic casing and will kill barrels in 1000 rounds
>for muh armor piercing dmr
>20round mag
>hypermeme optic that’s going to require software updates
>no iron sights at all no ability to use a bayonet
>desert tan to blend into the terrain of the previous war
Good god Should have just reissued the m14
gr8 b8 m8 I rate 8/8
Looks ugly and retarded too. Why the fuck is the stock so tiny compared to the rest of the gun, reminds me of the charger in l4d2 with the tiny arm
>why the fuck is the stock so tiny compared to the rest of the gun
Overall length requirements
Is the stock not adjustable?
>Why the fuck is the stock so tiny compared to the rest of the gun
Because they saw all the AR buyers customize their guns into disproportionate shapes and thought they'd be hip and cool if they made a gun like that
>hypermeme cartridge that requires strange bimetallic casing and will kill barrels in 1000 rounds
Current barrel life is over 12000 rounds.
There is no way in hell that is true for the actual duty round, *maybe* the weaker training load, but even then I don't believe it.
Maybe they used a modern steel for the barrel, or a stellite liner. The firearms industry is stagnant and tends to rely on 4140 or other low-end stuff which was good 70 years ago.
The firearms industry is unironically one of the most ass backwards in the world in terms of metallurgy
Proof? M4s aren’t even rated for that many.
Is that supposed to be impressive? That's like 4 camping trips to me
The gun isn't meant to impress some random anon, its built for specific purposes that may not align with you magdumping into trash and acting like you could afford one of these things anyways.
that tiny pathetic stock that was chosen just to appease the length requirements is such a perfect image to represent this rifle
what a pile of shit
The future is polymer cased telescoped electrically primed cartridges. It is our Faustian duty.
ain't that the truth
>Good God should have just reissued the M-14
Anon, that's a bit much.
>bayonet
Was mad until i read this and realized it's bait lol
Yes, the M7 is replacing the M4. Every single one.
-cope
-seethe
-sneed
-feed
Didn't read op but I know it's just more bitching. I can't wait for the M7 to be a success, every youtube-addicted know-it-all who binges forgotten weapons will continue their seething xD
It all makes sense when you consider that the only enemy with both the distance and armor this rifle is designed to engage is that of other Americans across a cornfield.
I wish I was this chronically online to believe this
go back to arfcom you dumb boomer
Truth.
>It’s not happening no matter what they say.
Cope and seethe.
The tragedy is, it infested and killed a 20-year program to lighten the soldier's load by moving to a polymer case-telescoped round. And it did it on the basis of "muh overmatch" from a couple boomer generals mad that every rifleman couldn't snipe a Taliban PKM operating from the next mountain over.
Meanwhile, we have tons of cheap/light guided weapons that could (and in some cases, did) the same job just fine; they just needed to be issued sooner/in greater quantities. The future is in light, guided HE or HEDP munitions, not in "every man a RIFLEman".
>it infested and killed a 20-year program to lighten the soldier's load by moving to a polymer case-telescoped round. And it did it on the basis of "muh overmatch" from a couple boomer generals mad that every rifleman couldn't snipe a Taliban PKM operating from the next mountain over.
All Textron had to do was not fuck it up, but their offerings were literally the first ones eliminated. The contract was written as a continuation of the LSAT program.
the real question is how did they fuck it up so badly?
They pulled out of the competition under mysterious circumstances that might never be revealed to the public. It's pretty suHispanicious.
they didn't, sig paid off the decision makers retard.
>the real question is how did they fuck it up so badly?
Army asked for a rifle and a machine gun, and they showed up with a rifle and a rifle with a heavy barrel plus bipod. They were either completely retarded and thought a magazine fed SAW was a good idea that anyone actually wants, or they were completely retarded and thought they actually wanted to save money on procurement by rechambering old MGs instead of dumping money to keep that budget coming.
>Army asked for a rifle and a machine gun, and they showed up with a rifle and a rifle with a heavy barrel plus bipod.
That was General Dynamics. Textron had a rifle and an LMG. Textron's rifle and LMG ejected out of the front. you can see it here
Right where your hand goes.
>Right where your hand goes.
Put a vfg on it
>The future is in light, guided HE or HEDP munitions, not in "every man a RIFLEman".
100% true. the rifle should unironically evolve in the opposite direction of the xm-7. lighter, cheaper, high volume suppressive fire that also works for close in assaults over the last 35 meters. The rest of the killing should be done by much more effective explosive weapons that could be incredibly cheap with economies of scale
>OP hasn't studied the equipment or tactics of the Chinese army.
>Op doesn't realize this weapon is designed to counter them.
>OP then proceeds to spout diarrhea out of Xir 's upper anus.
>nobody learns anything.
Ah yes, the notoriously well equipped, well trained Chinese army…
its not about their normal equipment and body armour but being able to punsh through their shit walls. Imagine fighting in a chinese hive city and your squad gets nailed by a chinese squad with their 30mm marksman rifle. You either have to be a really good shot or you need to find a way to get through their walls.
The chinese way is the 30mm to negate the single soldiers shooting talent and accuracy, the american way is to equip every squad with weapons that punsh through chinese paper walls at a reasonable distance
The fuck kind of scenario are you imagining where US forces are sieging a Chinese city?
>The fuck kind of scenario are you imagining where US forces are sieging a Chinese city?
Hopefully it involves power armor
get a fucking job, your military thriller sucks and won't make it to an agent, let alone publishing firms. tom clancy's dead and his corpse writes better
How does it counter them?
To the best of my understanding any conflict in the south east Pacific is either going to be in urban or jungle environments, both of which incentivize closer range shooting and thus an intermediate cartridge over a full size one. On top of that while china does have an indeterminate amount of indeterminate quality armor being issued, generally smaller faster bullets are better at penatrating all else equal so it would make zero sense to move towards the heavier slower 6.8 fury or whatever it's called. This isn't even getting to the fact that we have been offered no evidence that the sig round is actually better at penetration. Finally, the primary advantage the Chinese have is in numbers, why would you reduce the amount of ammunition that your troops can carry if that is the case
>range
The chinese employ dm rifles, lmgs, and squad level 30m accurized grenade launchers.
>armor pen
Youre not going to get a bullet to reliably pen ceramic plates at any appreciable distance. The chinese use poly plates. The new round is designed to defeat these. Like the 5.56 m855a1.
m855a1 is literally a green version of m85 which was for soviet tin pot helmets at 600 yards out of the saw barrel, specifically, and nothing else. the 30mm grenade rifles are unreliable super heavy dogshit with less firepower than a milkor 40mm. their rifles roll caol and miss targets while keyholing inside of 20 feet. it's not that they aren't a threat, but the xm5 is regressive in the extreme, even in the face of networked squad capabilities because the scope was doodoo graft that isn't itself netwroked to anything and is just a light up BDC reticle. Also if m855a1 would do it, we should just stick with it and have troops be better equipped to suppress and to kill greater numbers of enemies, a doctrine that was born out of tactical reality.
TL;DR you're stupid, wrong, and defeated your own asinine argument
>nd is just a light up BDC reticle.
anon, just tell us you're retarded.
Nah go watch the garandthumb video, it's a light up bdc and doesn't network with the fancy new hud goggles that are gonna get in the way of using it with proper eye relief, there's a reason the coolguys using the mcx right now aren't using the ngsw sight, and that nobody is using the xm5 at all
Anon, that's literally all it is. You use the integrated rangefinder and it gives you the distance and lights up the closest holdover mark on the reticle. This was known years ago from Vortex's patents but people still insisted it was more like a miniaturized TrackingPoint with a bunch of fancy networking stuff built in.
>miniaturized TrackingPoint with a bunch of fancy networking stuff built in.
that was literally in the contract anon. That's why the rails are powered.
The rail on the Sig isn't powered. The scope takes CR123 batteries.
>250,000 NGSW-FC optics are planned for the production contract that is scheduled to begin in late—2021. This parallels the NGSW weapon’s program’s goals to create a total of 250,000 NGSW R and AR weapons.
>NGSW-FC program requires OEM’s to plan for I-Rail (also called “Smart Rail”) integration and operation as part of the NGSW-FC product road map and production plan.
>An Army NGSW-FC optic that is I-Rail enabled will be able to mount to any I-Rail weapon, whether NGSW, M4 carbine, or other system, supporting T-Worx’s plans to address the existing weapon (e.g. M4) upgrade market opportunities in the US and NATO.
2023 justification book:
>Picatinny Smart Rail System Controller and Remote will continue to integrate different components together and then demonstrate its ability to control devices and manage data traffic. The completion of this effort will provide a path for future capability growth to systems such as, but not limited to Next Generation Squad Weapon Fire Control, Fire Control for M3E1, and Family of Weapon Sights Individual (FWS-I). This effort will be critical in ensuring we don't have duplicative hardware on weapon systems as well as ensuring the devices on the weapons can properly communicate with each other.
The next few bullets cover the use of negative space for power and data, which is the point of the I-Rail.
It's central to the ASA Tools project which is already complete, you fuckers pick up an overpriced MCX-Spear and assume that's the actual, finished product verbatim; just because the scope can function off an attached battery doesn't mean that's how it's supposed to operate at all times, on adequately equipped firearms.
they're not, only one of the entries even tried that and it wasn't feasible
>integrated ranging with autocomputed reticle holds
I really don't see what the problem is. Sounds good to go and not overcomplicated.
From memory of GT's vid, it also has a target marking memory of up to 3 or 5?? and will automatically switch the reticle's drop point when you scan over to a different saved position.
Only a CoD armatard kiddy expects this to be some superfuture cybertech 40 man platoon networked integrated super whiz bang computer.
You don't need that shit. Riflemen don't need that shit. Squads communicate, there are comms, and groups set up zones of coverage.
The scope is not networked because the human beings already network, it's more reliable and less expensive.
>m855a1 is literally a green version of m855 and nothing else
M855A1 did something no other round until M80A1 did: it fragments every time and at a low threshold velocity.
this is true; I was trying to limit my argument to the topic of armor penetration, to stay on topic with the anon I replied to
Im the anon you were responding to.
>m855a1 is literally a green version of m85
Here let me quote directly from the US mil. :
[...]The copper cup, from which the jacket is formed, is reverse-drawn, the opposite of how the M855 jacket is drawn. The hardened steel penetrator is almost twice as heavy as the one used in the M855
Do you see where it says, " hardened steel" and " almost twice as heavy"?
>green
Sure bud the US mil designed it for mother Gaia
>b-b-b-ut thattsthths what they said!
They say alot of things. One thing they will not say is "this is to kill chinese".
Now why would the .gov go to all the expense of increasing chamber pressures of a round to drive a penetrator almost twice as heavy. Put your thinking cap on. You can do it!
> Also if m855a1 would do it, we should just stick with it and
I already explained this in my initial post. Reread it If you are still unable to grasp such simple concepts Ill get some old socks and do a puppet show for you.
nice, ignore when your own post refuted your point by saying that m855a1 still pens chink plates when you assert that such is the primary purpose of a whole new weapon platform, ignore that you're wrong about the ngsw scope which was an integral part of the project, and ignore that chink 30mm's are stupid and don't need to be countered, and ignore that the theater difference will be huge. Also the chinks don't even use any plates at all in general issue, yes m855a1 was an attempt at green homosexualry, of course periodic iterations display performance improvement, and the bullet is the same weight, only the penetrator's proportion of the 62 grains increased. the pressure is higher because it's a 62 grain going as fast as a 55 grain normally does, and normal m855 already pierced UHMWPE plates the whole time.
>I never mentioned the scope.
>m855 doesn't reliably pen PE plates, especially at distance.
>there is only one reason why they would increase the size and composition of the penetrator.
>it doesn't mimic m193 velocities. It mimics m855 velocities out of a shorter barrel.
>they made it out of copper in order to make the penetrator bigger while keeping the weight at 62 grains.
>their weapons outrange 5.56. Which is why we went with a bigger round.
>you may not take our enemies seriously, but the DoD does.
>those keyholing rounds you mentioned earlier were training rounds. Unless you think they were shooting live rounds at close range against a brick wall.
>you are a retard who knows fuck all about fire arms.
/Fin
Man you're doubling down defeating your own point that the xm5 is meant to penetrate non-existant chink armor, by saying m855a1 was already made for the purpose, to argue semantics you're wrong about still. The penetrator was increased to make up for the lack of dense lead because it was a leadless round as the objective, m855a1 doesn't perfectly mimic m193 but it's still 3150 out of a 20" barrel and is faster than m855, certainly not slower than m855 sbr velocities as you claim, the keyholing rounds keyholed all over the place, and aren't useful for training or anything else. I know you never mentioned the scope for your convenience, it was conceptually integral to marksmanship performance at extended ranges and was part of the weapon platform, which is why another anon thought it still had a powered rail, it was part of the package deal that made it appealing in theory.
None of that shit is relevant to the overmatch you're describing, which was always a meme issue because fucking duh GPMGs/ rpg's/ etc. outrange carbines and realistic marksmanship standards.
They made it out copper because it was cheaper to pay for that than paying to do pile onto the eventual lead remediation problems.
But muh overmatch. Don’t overthink it anon. Snipers are the best and this turns every soldier into a sniper
the Army really is in pure fantasy land if they think that whatever rifle they pick will matter in a war with China, since there is almost no reason for ground troops to ever be involved in the Battle for Taiwan. Its either going to be stopped by the USN/USAF or the US is going to say fuck it. If you try the dislodge the Chinese from Taiwan after they capture it, you will destroy the only revelance Taiwan has anyway. Might as well just focusing on building that infrastructure where the Chinese do not have control of it.
Behold, my sleep deprived M16A5
>20in barrel
>Free float handguard
>C7A2 stock for manlets
>Funny XM5 sight made for 5.56
congrats it’s shit
the country is being run by senile old people if you haven't noticed. it's gonna take about 10 more years before we can begin to recover from the absolute ignorance and petty malice of the baby boomers.
>arnagger cant cope that people are moving on which will makes his larper collection obsolete
Yeah I'm sure whatever point you're making is valid. Not even going to read them but of course it's a scam. Every project is a scam, but is necessary for the money machine and the US AAA bond rating. Which is more important than the feasibility or usefulness of any weapons system. Of course there is no reason we shouldn't still be rocking M16A2s open top humvees with M2s, olive drab dungarees, ALICE, and no plate carriers. But who cares, it allows us to take all that debt, and artificially create a fake marketplace economy out of nothing. In 20-30 years some third world village will end up with crates of these pieces of shit and the cycle will continue.
Weren't they supposed to be issuing these by now?
Who keeps giving contracts to Nig Sauer?
>Who keeps giving contracts to Nig Sauer?
The same general that told the Chinese he would tip them off if POTUS got too aggressive
You say "potus" and suddenly I don't give a shit. The word is President. Fucking Christ.
Long nose tribe
FUCK SIGGERS
I thought the gen dynamics one won the replacement contest like half a year ago.
They invented the perfect rifle for Afghanistan right as the US left Afghanistan. It really is THAT simple and coping about body armor proliferation won't make it not true. The brass ALWAYS prepares for the last war.
Eliminate rifles in favor of small indirect guided mortars and grenade launchers t b h
If anything can be seen from this Russian slap fest, infantry combat occurs at very close ranges and even in flat areas you have cover all over
I love how this gun creates so much intense hatred because a loud group of retards favorite bullpup never won
if range and muzzle velocity matters to the exclusion of most everything else
why WOULDNT you go bull pup
The platform overall just isn't worth it imo. Ergonomics on bullpups kinda blow, triggers are not good but that's just nitpicking. Honestly the AR as a whole is just better due to ergonomics and ease of use. I wish I could explain it better that's really all I got.
>because I'm a boomer, and I learned on an AR, and I don't wanna change
the last 40 years in a nut shell
It's me, I'm the zoomer boomer.
>Didn't read what I typed out
> proceeds to induce sad hominem like a child
The shoe fits hombre
>Uncomfortable to reload or use any other control on the weapon
>Must be shot with right hand otherwise brass will sear your cheek, thus 10% of your soldiers (the lefties) can't accurately use the rifle
>Trigger is ass and has been ass for decades, pretty much impossible to mechanically improve, thus difficult shots become even harder
>Difference in muzzle velocity pretty minimal, ~150 fps
>Other weapon systems are non-bullpup, making training the manual of arms more difficult
I'm all for the XM7 because much like the boomers the AR is old and not going to get any better, so we might as well take advantage of new tech to make a better cartridge, rifle, and optic. SIG fixed the barrel length problem by just making an ass-powerful cartridge with nearly double the muzzle velocity of 5.56. Calling it an AR clone is disingenuous, mechanically it is nothing like an AR, it's controls are not like an AR, it's capabilities are not like an AR, the only similarities it has is that it is not a bullpup (like 98% of all other guns), it has a pistol grip (standard rifle feature since WW2), it has m-lok (found on every modern assault rifle, including AKs and Kel-Tecs cocaine-induced bullpups), and uses stanmags, because it would be retarded to reinvent the wheel here.
There are good applications for bullpups - the P90 is one of them. Assault rifles are not one of these applications. Not many militaries use them (UK, Austria, Australia, israelites, and some random poors who styer gave a good deal, and the army that has never won a land war), and many SOFs are switching to non-bullpup designs. Bullpup bad, AR old, XM7 good, US army procurement retarded but less retarded than the rest of the world and certainly less retarded than /k/
Try going prone with a bullpoop.
literally no different than any other rifle with a magazine, it's not any hard to reload (in fact they're better for reloading prone because you roll it to the side to put the magwell in your workspace, unlike an ar which is better served pointed upwards to do so), it's shorter for the same barrel length, and geometricacllyit allows the user to control muzzle rise more effectively, while being less fatiguing to present. :/
>It literally makes 0 rational sense for this to become the standard issue rifle replacing the m4.
Welcome to major national decisions where rationality isn't always what matters, but politics is
Also the average engagement distance in the middle east favors longer range firepower
>US government fudds adopting an objectively inferior weapon design based on an outdated understanding of war do to corruption, government nepotism and ”muh stoppin powa bro we NEED to give 18 year olds who barely know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of a rifle capable of hitting a man sized target at 800 yards cause bro we just NEED to bro never mind the lessons learned about how important volume of fire is from literally every war since the start of the 20th century bro we NEED this super cool guy 1 shot kill rifle”
Where have I I heard this one before
>Brainlet mad that his shitty bullpup didn't win
What does this have to do with bullpups that other rifle is literally in the same boat of dumb needless overpowered cartridge
>every criticism in bullpup cope
Why don’t you explain why it’s good and not M14 2.0?
I guess I'm also surprised someone didn't submit a select fire M1A/M14 chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor... because that's basically what these all look like.
>chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor
the requirements stated that the entries needed to fire the 6.8 projectile
M14 is comparable though. It is essentially chamber into same power round as previous gen (actually weaker).
M7 has total overmatch in range and pen over M4.
This'll basically just be the SCAR all over again.
It'll be used here and there and everyone will coom over it.
I think next time they do a "m4 replacement" contest, that could actually be the one.
>It makes literally NO sense.
Of course it does anon. The answer is very simple and has nothing to with ballistics,body armor,etc. The answer is right in front of you.
Politicians are corrupt and the ridiculous military budget is cover to funnel money into the pockets of their friends. Sure there is incompetence and any number of other issues that contribute to the problem but don't think for one second that the top commanders and senators don't grasp they are wasting billions of dollars on this rifle and any number of retarded projects. Sure they might not get the exact technical reasons but they know they are just burning cash hand over fist.
Reading posts like this makes me realize that the XM7 is going to be as good as the F35 turned out to be, because this reads like some classic Spreyposting.
Do you actually think that sig is as good as lockheed?
>The only possible scenario that could explain it is if there was a major issue of an enemy with sub standard body armor
I wonder what enemy that could possibly be? You're so close to realizing.
>LSAT starts with a good promise, Textron delivers a good product
>expands to include a rifle/carbine but never really picks up
>Jim Schatz wants to sell HK417s, influences procurement and project goals
>NGSW is formed out of and alongside LSAT, grandfathering LSAT and placing more emphasis on the rifle/carbine
>shills have muddied the water too much for anything conclusive to emerge past this point
>you are here
Is this what happened?
nah LSAT was dead because it was too weird, troops would bitch about like the mattel rifle thing, the NGSW is like the last two rifle selections that went nowhere, and the 9mm repalcements that went nowhere. It's the new SCAR, as evidenced by operators using the 5.56 ones for gucci purposes sometimes, and nothing else coming of it.
This is probably a conspiracy to eventually make this the new ceremonial rifle
To go with the ceremonial M17s?
Aside from being used as a compact DMR, it's dumb. If you had one in every squad, or perhaps a couple per platoon, it kind of makes sense. Beyond that, it's stupid. Oh, and it only makes sense logistically if you swap your m240s over to the same cartridge.
>what's XM250
A lightweight machine gun without a quick change barrel not built to take an extended pounding like the 240.
A clear upgrade over the M249 if the army was fucking retarded and specifically said no quick change barrels.
The reason for it was soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan didn't have the range with M4's to take on taliban the area firing at them from tops of valleys with PKM's
This. Range is the overmatch they keep talking about. They want each and every infantryman to be able to shootout with a fucking emplaced medium machine gun mounted on a fucking tripod. NGSW are only going to be kept around until actual fighting happens and they realize that being able to shoot more means you win.
>being able to outshoot your enemy is... LE BAD
Being less bad at a match you're doomed to lose (trying to duel beltfeds) in exchange for being terrible at a match you're supposed to be good at (close range rifle combat where low recoil and big mag capacity are key) is a stupid violation of combined arms tactics.
>hey guys, everyone is getting a massively overpowered rifle with half the combat load because a decade ago some guys in Afghanistan got plinked by a PK from its max range
It's a brainless solution. Literally sacrificing capability where most combat has and does occur to min-max at ranges where you can't even see the fucking target. They wan to engage with small arms fire at 800 meters. That's some WWI volley fire retardation.
Time is a flat circle and it is the XX20s
>That's some WWI volley fire retardation.
WWI volley fire was not retardation though. Just decade ago ended Boer war when Mauser armed Boer troops BTFO britbong artillery batteries from like 2+ km ranges. It was literally battle proven (c) combat experience (Just like Abrams tank battle proven (c) now sent to the Ukraine). Nobody see it coming how recent changes in artillery would change battlefield forever.
Past WWI times, WWII times continuation of clinging to full power rifle instead of SMGs was indeed retardation. Its Like people instantly forgot how WWI war was.
Yes. Because it comes at the expense of being worse where you’ll actually use your rifle.
Yes, the XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement system is objectively better at satisfying the nominal intentions of the nigsaw program than the XM5/7
No, that has no bearing on whether Big Army will try and replace the M4—possibly the most successful infantry combat combat implement of the 20th century—with a fucking battle rifle
i thought 25mm wasnt very effective
I've heard 20mm in the OICW was quite weak, dunno about 25mm but probably a bit better.
it's sure as fuck more effective than 6.8mm
unless im misinterpreting your post i dont think giving every soldier a grenade launcher would be very efficient
but it would be cool
6.8mm is effective against—best-case scenario—peer body-armored units standing out in the open waiting to be shot. 25mm airburst is effective against any enemy unit that you can laser-rangefind or whose cover/concealment you can LRF, as well as anyone within X meters of him whether they're wearing armor or not. Given that you're going to be taking a hit to your fighting load of ammo either way, and given that the an integrated rangefinger/ballistic calculator optic was a key element of the NGSW program, it seems like a no-brainer.
yeah that makes sense but i think youd be carrying even less ammo, these things are pretty damn big compared to a rifle cartridge
plus when your up close and personal, its either risk blowing yourself up or using a pistol (if they ever get that close)
maybe have a dmr guy with one of these slung over their shoulder?
Yeah, it definitely makes more sense as a SDM thing, but so does the XM5/7 or anything else that isn't an M4 or equivalent
>Army comes up with a big super rifle concept
>trying to shove it down the budget asap
>everyone wondering what the rush on adoption is
>DoD publicizes their own separate super rifle
The XM7 is solely the result of careerist Army officers rushing things because they wanted "their" idea adopted so that they can put their name on it and farm it for promotion potential. If they actually slowed down to do a real comparison trial, it would be revealed that it has a negligible effect on combat power over an M4 and end up like the XM8, SCAR, ACR, and other replacement trials.
Real question is whether the DoD is going to force the issue and make the Army do a runoff with the LICC.
>careerist Army officers rushing things because they wanted "their" idea adopted so that they can put their name on it and farm it for promotion potential.
If this was true then the Textron bid would have won, since they were sucking it off the whole time.
Textron was big in LSAT, but that program didn't have anything to do with NGSW and the officers running that. Who the contractor is irrelevant.
>Textron was big in LSAT, but that program didn't have anything to do with NGSW
NGSW was literally birthed from the LSAT program, which is exactly why you can find top DOD brass, and program managers, praising their offering before the actual field testing started in 2020/2021.
There were some small comments about Textron's submission because it was the most mature design at the time and therefore was probably going to have less to fix. That didn't show any favoritism and idle speculation wouldn't have carried any water anyways. You are also incorrect in saying that NGSW came out of LSAT. NGSW supplanted ICSR, which was supposed to be a 7.62 holdover rifle until a more advanced weapon could be developed. That was killed when it was apparent that NGSW could give weapons quickly enough to not need an intermediate.
LSAT was a separate program from that last had contracts in 2014, three years before NGSW was stood up. By that time, the guys who ran and had stakes in LSAT would have PCS'ed away and different people would have been assigned to work NGSW. It is pretty apparent you don't know what a military career looks like or how procurement programs are run.
It's a slight variation of this same rant thread every month
Every single argument that exists for keeping the M4 over XM7 directly implies that the M4 should be replaced with the MP7. It's over for the M4 and it's time that fudds like OP accepted that and worked out how to start saving up for their new larp kit.
>what are minimum thresholds
Are you one of those fags who say anyone who argues for 9mm should argue for .22LR instead?
That said I’d love a MP7 under a XM25 type airburst grenade launcher
how about a grenade launcher INSIDE an mp7
Sign me up
>MP7 under a XM25 type airburst grenade launcher
That was one of the proposed OICW configurations back in the 90s. I think there's some weird chink OICW knockoff that uses a small SMG as the gun component too.
I'd put the grenade tube on TOP of the rifle barrel so it can be full length for comfy low recoil with good fps.
The tube would fit inside a big circle which would also hold the elevated front sight.
>I'd put the grenade tube on TOP of the rifle barrel
They are
You might actually be retarded
>sig
does it ND when it accidentally falls over like the standard issue pistol? lel
Pentagon is always prepping to fight their last war, which since 1945 is also "the last war they lost to an grossly inferior force". 🙂
In this case that would be Afghan War, where short weak M-4s that were adopted to ride in Hummers to raids on suburban homes were found lacking in longer range fire fights against Afghans with highly portable Russian HMG.
My question is:
WTF are Russians about 3 generations ahead of USA in HMG tech?
>I also haven’t seen proof the new round can even pierce level 4 body armor,
get in line retard, "hurr why is all this stuff classified >:( #146" is a boring thread idea
>Combined with the new scope this will be the heaviest service rifle ever made standard.
you literally included the m14 in your post, which arguably weighs more
also a similar weight to Galil ARM and FN FAL, which have seen service as standard rifles
rifles can't not get heavier due to the need to mount an intelligent rail. The T-Worx system is literally the only one that qualified and none of the other designs integrated it well. From an older version of the system (2012):
>Up to four 18650 li-ion batteries can fit in the stock
That's 0.4lbs from batteries alone, setting aside all the other parts. Subtracting that and an additional insensible 0.4lbs across the rail (a similar integration by the same company totals to 2 lbs, so this is conservative) and the suppressor weight (1.48lbs) and the gun itself is 7.6lbs, much lighter than the M14 despite similar punch + greater capacity, lighter than a SCAR-H, etc. despite achieving a fantastic disclosed barrel life for otherwise highly demanding conditions.
>"AP capabilities is classified, as if some new magical allow has been developed and the AP round wasn't going to just be tungsten core. Also AP was something the NGSW program was designed in mind for."
>"The M5/M7 is absolutely not going to come in at 12lbs"
>"If you take off everything the gun is built around it weighs even less than a SCAR!"
I've seen some retarded copeposts before but goddamn. Also what's this "greater capacity" than an M-14 shit, both have a 20 round mag.
>as if some new magical allow has been developed and the AP round wasn't going to just be tungsten core
"if we classify it hard enough, maybe we can get away with mass-issuing DU penetrator ammo"
>"If you take off everything the gun is built around it weighs even less than a SCAR!"
putting it in funny quotes AND greentexting it doesn't make it any less true, dumbfuck
if they wanted a lighter-weight, equally capable, higher caliber gun, XM7 could be that by just stripping off the bullshit (and it may very well turn into that over time if the scopes fall through)
the extra weight isn't FOR the gun, it's everything else, which you are obfuscating by refusing to admit that means it is objectively superior (adding capabilities) instead of merely a sidegrade like past new small arms projects
Given that the SCAR-H has a 16" barrel and the XM5 has a 13", at least part of the extra weight is clearly for the gun
The gun is literally built with the optic and suppressor in mind you babbling retard. It will never be issued without them. You're still not explaining how the M5/M7 has higher capacity than an M14.
also part of the benefit of shooting a bigger caliber with obscenely high pressures is potentially reducing dependece on tungsten, you know nothing about the ammo at all and you won't for at least 20 years, which means I will have to tolerate these stupid threads for at least the time between now and your inevitable cheeto-induced heart attack
>part of the benefit of shooting a bigger caliber with obscenely high pressures is potentially reducing dependece on tungsten
Dependence on what, dingus? Armor penetration? News flash, we already have ammo that meets and exceeds the BC of 6.8 and it still needs fucking tungsten to reliably go through Level IV plates. What sort of physics-breaking design/makeup do you think this shit has? And this is your second reminder that armor penetration was *never* an element of the NGSW project. You're pulling shit out of your ass because you don't understand anything you're talking about. Sit down and let the big boys discuss things.
I'm sure in his noggin he thinks .277 Fury surpasses .338 Lapua ballistics
Most likely it’ll be a marksmen rifle of some sort like the svd is for the Cold War infantry , one for every squad to be able to hit targets farther then the m4 would be able to reach