More like the Germans are a bunch of cucks that have no initiatives of their own. In a alliance, a
Initiatives are encouraged. >patriots
Germans refused until america send them a month later. >Bradleys
Germans refuses to give their outdated IFVs until america give the Ukrainians bradleys.
The german excuse is just a pathetic change in goal posts and its just shows how cuckes they are when it comes to foreign policies.
its mostly just scholz being the biggest fricking moron known to man
Bismarck is fricking hanging himself in his grave right now seeing this moron stumble through geopolitics
Always true, akways has been, SPD is a gonna fail any expectation, any thing they promised, they will fail you.
Scholz is a afraid of the role he is playing. Afraid of a strong germany. Cuck-Scholz.
We hate him so much.
Germs are doing business with vatnik oligarchs for decades. That's the entire reason their nuclear plants got fricked. Literally a nation of morons that started and lost both world wars and keeps funding a criminal regime.
>Germs are doing business with vatnik oligarchs for decades
maybe the Russians have some dirt on them. maybe they are being blackmailed into this position
>More like the Germans are a bunch of cucks that have no initiatives of their own.
I think it has a lot to do with USA, UK and Poland blowing up Nordstream pipelines and killing the german industrial sector. They had ignored the green nutjobs and their push for wind mills because they figured that they had their own energy supply secured. Without russian gas they are totally fricked. The russian gas was not only an energy source, it was also raw material for all forms of organic chemicals.
>They had ignored the green nutjobs and their push for wind mills because they figured that they had their own energy supply secured.
yet they couldn't ignore the green nutjobs when they told them to shut down their nuke plants?
no matter how you slice it, Germans were moronic.
>yet they couldn't ignore the green nutjobs when they told them to shut down their nuke plants?
Merkel did exactly this.
Greens had a long-term plan how to slowly phase-out nuclear power while bringing alternatives online.
Merkel cancelled that when she got elected. Then Merkel abruptly phased-out nuclear power with no plan after Fukushima.
>USA, UK and Poland blowing up Nordstream pipelines and killing the german industrial sector
pffftthahahahahaha. There was literal proof of the Russians being around the pipeline before it blew up >w-w-well they wouldn't blow up their own pipeline
Yes they would. It wasn't working. When they blew it up, Putin immediately said 'Well we can turn Nordstream 2 on for you Germany haha :)'. Then if that didn't work they can blame the evil West for doing it.
>More like the Germans are a bunch of cucks that have no initiatives of their own.
Its a US occupied country still. Also making them pathetic cucks was the entire program after ww2
[...]
its mostly just scholz being the biggest fricking moron known to man
Bismarck is fricking hanging himself in his grave right now seeing this moron stumble through geopolitics
Scholz is just a typicla fabian socialist like a lot of other politicians in the EU. That's pretty much it.
God I fricking hate the German government, they have all this equipment that could be used to fight an enemy that raped and occupied their country for decades, and is now raping and occupying their ally, but they would rather lick their boots. Truly a subverted and moronic nation.
More like the Germans are a bunch of cucks that have no initiatives of their own. In a alliance, a
Initiatives are encouraged. >patriots
Germans refused until america send them a month later. >Bradleys
Germans refuses to give their outdated IFVs until america give the Ukrainians bradleys.
The german excuse is just a pathetic change in goal posts and its just shows how cuckes they are when it comes to foreign policies.
tanks are literally nazi-faschism CHUDS. We as germans have a moral debt we must repay in front of our one and only liberators who defeated single handedly the vast majority of the nazi satanic army in their own homes!
This is what happens if you allow ost germans to have any significance. Ossis should not have been given a right to vote for the next 3 generations after reunifications. It's not as if they contribute economically in first place.
It's just a huge trojan horse.
>Also you did you get your daily ass fricking by turk alpha males already?
The only reason Turks (or any other foreigners, for that matter) don't come to East Germany, but DO come to West Germany, is because East Germany is *awfully* poor.
It's that simple.
This germany is stuffed full of stazi and there are three million rusdian speakers in east germany now. The german left parties like the greens were soviet sockpuppers for decades.West germany was one thing, united germany and the shit from its east is another matter
Do the Germans even HAVE any tanks to spare? I'm pretty sure they'd have o strip their own forces to be able to give any to Ukraine. What's criminal is the fricking state of the German military.
Uniroinically are they worried about Germany throwing economic tariffs or punishment at them? Can you even do that if they're all in the EU together? Will Germany threaten never to sell German arms to them again? What if they accept that penalty? Are they worried about, like, a reputation hit or some sort of credit score thing but for imported goods? Is that even a legitimate concept in this sense?
Just fricking dont listen to the Germans. Oh, grave insult to Germany. And?
Okay, so the Germans' MIC is gonna get butthurt
Those Poles are already shaking hands with the Koreans. Japan might as well lick their chops and get in on the game as well. European arms market just opened up big time.
Is France's MIC fricking asleep
Most big arms projects are interconnected in some way. Most high caliber cannons from western countries come from Rheinmetall or a company OWNED by Rheinmetall.
Sure, Poland can tell Rheinmetall to go frick itself but then it'll lose access to 90% of its guns that aren't rifles.
Okay, so the Germans' MIC is gonna get butthurt
Those Poles are already shaking hands with the Koreans. Japan might as well lick their chops and get in on the game as well. European arms market just opened up big time.
Is France's MIC fricking asleep
1 year ago
Anonymous
The Korean tanks are just so poland can start making their own shit. >Is France's MIC fricking asleep
France is trying to become a major power idk if they want to send their shit.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>poland wants its own shit
of course they do and because of german autism they got a pretty good deal out of the koreans
the eventual K2PL probably won't be as good as the leopard but you'll be able to buy it without a million restrictions and poles will probably sell you spare parts blueprints as well
worst korea also likes having a factory able to manufacture their shit overseas, which is likely part of the deal
1 year ago
Anonymous
All poland has to do is get their industry up and running and then i doubt the K2pl will even be their tank for long.
1 year ago
Anonymous
it won't, but incremental designs based on it will
the poles have a reasonable industrial base and due to the invasion have gained shitload of people feeling from ukraine
of course, to think that they will eclipse german or even french industry is ludicrous, but they might prove a serious enough competitor that the germans will think twice about their policy going forward
arms manufacturers give only a shit about free cash flow. Free advertising of their wunderwaffel in a big conventional war since WW2 is not a "damaging" thing. Only thing really pissing them off is how unreliably the socialists ruling coalitiong is making them look with these idiotic export binding contracts.
Trustworthiness, integrity and honoring agreements is a big part of what separates us from r*ssians.
homie, is you fricking moronic? >It's the law! Do not violate the law to prevent violation of law! LAW!
Fricking hell.
Blood and guts.
Men and steel.
Kill the Russian.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>>It's the law!
Yes. >Kill the Russian.
Yes.
The ball regarding Leo2s is in Germany's court. We'll do our best through other means until they get their shit together.
1 year ago
Anonymous
more like Poland ran to press instead of asking Germany.
now Germany insists to follow the proper process.
The Germans won't give permission. Leo2s will go to Ukraine. German export military has committed suicide. South Korea wins. Simple as.
1 year ago
Anonymous
it makes zero sense to replace a third-gen MBTs with another third-gen MBTs.
besides some marginal number of Eastern European NATO countries that don't have third-gen MBTs yet, there's no market to lose.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Imagine the future exists. And Germany is a cuck b***h. Why in the frick would you buy from Germany when they can shut off the tap any time Russia goes full moron? Because that's the future, anon. Ukraine is just the beginning.
And the Euros who aren't completely pozzed know it.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Only Poland is making trouble and Poland always hated Germany for WW2.
Poland's populist government still calls Germans Nazis.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Poland. Right. Who has no reason to hate Russia. At all.
Mark my words. Screen cap this post, everyone who has leopards will eventually send them to Ukraine. And Germany will b***h and moan about it. And German military exports will die. And S. Korea will benefit greatly. And Russia will be expelled from Ukraine. And there will be no nuclear holocaust when Russia loses, because it's easier and more profitable to murder Putin than to commit suicide for dear leader when you're an oligarch.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>everyone who has leopards will eventually send them to Ukraine. And Germany will b***h and moan about it.
this doesn't even make sense.
Germany has Leos. > it's easier and more profitable to murder Putin than to commit suicide for dear leader when you're an oligarch
Putin disposed of the oligarchs like two decades ago. Khodorkovsky is even out of prison now and in exile like the rest of the oligarchs that didn't want to give up their power voluntarily.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Germany sold a lot more Leo's than they they kept. Am I arguing with children?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yes. And bots and trolls.
Fish should be ITAR restricted.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I'm so disgusted with the state of groupthink on /k/.
Russia is fricked.
Germany is fricked.
The EU remains to be seen.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Apples and oranges.
Do you think every Leo2 ever sold is still working?
CW is over. Everyone reduced their active tanks.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Leo2s have been retired! >The cold war it over! >Nobody has tanks anymore!
Do you think about the things you say or are you paid to be moronic?
1 year ago
Anonymous
So you aren't going to answer the actual question.
You are comparing number of sold Leo2s vs active Leo2s in German forces.
You should count operational Leo2s from everyone.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You somehow think Germany has more active leopard 2s (false) than NATO nations who adopted the leopard2 and are willing to send them to Ukraine, but are hindered by Germany being c**ts as usual.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>NATO nations who adopted the leopard2 and are willing to send them to Ukraine
Poland wants to send a company to Ukraine.
Germany has more than a company of active Leo2s.
you are full of shit.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Poland is the only country in NATO with leopards.
You're moronic.
German military industrial complex is suicidally pacifist.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>NATO nations who adopted the leopard2 and are willing to send them to Ukraine
Poland wants to send a company to Ukraine.
Germany has more than a company of active Leo2s.
you are full of shit.
You're both moronic because Lolabd only wants to send any if "a broad coalition of nations" does the same.
Which is the same thing Scholz has been saying for months.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Is that why the poles said that they'll do it without permission if the Germans don't unfrick themselves?
1 year ago
Anonymous
They'll do it without permission if a broad coalition of countries does it.
Which is literally Scholz' condition anyway.
You fell for polish propaganda.
don't believe Polish lies. >Poland’s president Andrzej Duda said his government would send a company of German-built Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine’s army “as part of the building of an international coalition”. A company implies about 14 tanks.
that was two weeks ago and that "international coalition" still failed to materialize.
True.
>Which is the same thing Scholz has been saying for months.
Scholz doesn't speak
I heard his voice once.
https://i.imgur.com/9FBRJLd.png
The German insistence on sending US tanks is moronic. The Abrams would be a white elephant for the Ukrainians. It has an overly complicated engine, it requires more fuel, maintenance and logistics capabilities. Sending the lower maintenance, designed for conscript use, more fuel efficient leopards which are already in nations bordering Ukraine and the relative proximity to infrastructure to repair and maintain them is the least moronic option that kills more Russians per dollar spent.
I don't know why this is hard to understand.
Germans are just homosexual peaceniks.
Sack the frick up.
There's no German insistence to send Abrams but the >muh logistics
Argument is completely fake anyway.
Maintenance and supply depots could be set up easily. That's one of the things the US army is very good at. Look up how quickly it happend in every invaded shithole in the last 30 years.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You dense motherfricker. The fricking krauts have literally said they won't send leopards until we send Abrams. They've backpedaled since, but why wouldn't they? >Muh logistics fake, US Army, etc
Listen here, Black person, the US Army isn't fighting in Ukraine. You've got inexpensive, easy to maintain tanks in the neighborhood. And then you've got expensive, complicated, more maintenance intensive tanks across an ocean.
I swear to fricking Christ, you "people" are all moronic.
1 year ago
Anonymous
don't believe Polish lies. >Poland’s president Andrzej Duda said his government would send a company of German-built Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine’s army “as part of the building of an international coalition”. A company implies about 14 tanks.
that was two weeks ago and that "international coalition" still failed to materialize.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Which is the same thing Scholz has been saying for months.
Scholz doesn't speak
1 year ago
Anonymous
The German insistence on sending US tanks is moronic. The Abrams would be a white elephant for the Ukrainians. It has an overly complicated engine, it requires more fuel, maintenance and logistics capabilities. Sending the lower maintenance, designed for conscript use, more fuel efficient leopards which are already in nations bordering Ukraine and the relative proximity to infrastructure to repair and maintain them is the least moronic option that kills more Russians per dollar spent.
I don't know why this is hard to understand.
Germans are just homosexual peaceniks.
Sack the frick up.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Ukraine said it needs 300 MBTs.
UK can send 16.
Poland can send 16.
You aren't going to get 300 MBTs by a far shot even if all the smaller European countries start committing.
Abrams are needed.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>And there will be no nuclear holocaust when Russia loses
this is just another pure zigger cope. If they get completely routed they will just memory hole this war with a copeganda spin like they have done to any other war they have lost. Like winter or WW1 or russo-japanese war etc.
Future generations cant learn much about this if the survivors have either moved on, died or been socially isolated. And the history books never talk about this war much other then a few footnotes inbetween volumes upon volumes of how mighty stronk rasha was in the great patriotic war under the iron fisted leadership of the mighty tzar stalin (the man of steel).
1 year ago
Anonymous
Memoryholing takes a while though. Immediate aftermath of the Russo-Japanese war was the 1905 revolution and the aftermath of WW1 was the Russian Civil War
1 year ago
Anonymous
>The Germans won't give permission.
A possible outcome, but what makes you so sure of it?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Because the krauts are homosexuals addicted to cheap Russian natural gas. Their entire heavy industry capability relies on it. And that's over. But they don't realize it yet
1 year ago
Anonymous
NS was destroyed. There's not much gas flowing anymore.
1 year ago
Anonymous
NS 1 was destroyed the new and intact NS2 is still around. Funny coinicide
1 year ago
Anonymous
Pipe A of NS2 was also destroyed.
Pipe B is still intact but NS2 was never turned on.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Ok. You have pretty childish and simplistic worldviews. Was there anything else?
because if they wanted to send military equipment to the country being invaded they wouldn't be fricking asking for every dotted line signed in triplicate would they? So long as they keep being moronic about that they will continue to show how little they actually want to help.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Anon, do you think you can export any piece of military hardware made by anybody without written permission by the source? It is a simple formality everybody sticks to. Try exporting ITAR restricted material to Ukraine without getting explicit permission and see how that works out for you.
Germany said they want a coalition:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-calls-countries-dig-deeper-ukraine-pressure-builds-tanks-2023-01-20/
Poland said they want a coalition:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-plans-give-ukraine-leopard-tanks-part-coalition-2023-01-11/
There is no coalition yet, mostly because it’s not as easy as you think to provide 300 tanks and spares. Replacement costs alone make this a major issue.
Sending token gestures like the 12CR2s is pointless. You would have to build - multiple brigade size force or it’s pointless from a logistical standpoint.
Two spearhead brigades and two regular mech brigades are 6 batallion equivalents, so roughly 300 hulls. That’s without reserves and accounting for the fact that you will never reach 100% readiness in the field.
It’s either all Leo2 operators chip in, or the thing is not going to fly.
Modern politics is a sideshow. The real power players behind the scenes, the real "deep state" if you will has always been the big money corporations, industrialists, and arms manufacturers of a 'country'. National governments are little more than the citizens representative for negotiating with the big money interests that reside in their territory.
When nations go to war it is really the "oligarchs" of that nation going to war over economic interests.
>When nations go to war it is really the "oligarchs" of that nation going to war over economic interests.
If that horseshit was true Putin wouldn't have forced Russia into an economically disastrous war while frisbeeing all his oligarchs out of windows. Not every country is the U.S.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I don't know if you realize this but Putin himself is extremely wealthy. So wealthy that he is possibly worth more then the next 10 oligarchs in his country combined. When he roped them into war it was because he had more influence than them and more money on the line from petroleum losses.
1 year ago
Anonymous
isn't putler like a full head shorter than trump
at least without his platform shoes
1 year ago
Anonymous
and getting imprisoned inside a rasha going down the toilet (more then usual) is exactly beneficial for all of that paper wealth? he invaded because he wants to build another russhitia imperial construct like the two previous versions FFS
this is what plebs with little to no savings never get. Wealth is a secondary concern. Raw, untrimmed POWER is the most highest priority for these egomaniacs. How you measure it is relative. Like Best Korea is not wealthy but is looked upon favorably by the likes of monke or pooh bear. Simply because the Kim dynasty has raw, absolute power of their subjects to do as they please. The more wealth like money you have, the less you value each million coming in as all your desires like expensive toys from mansions to women have been satisfying. Instead you start looking to convert that wealth into unrestrained, raw political power.
1 year ago
Anonymous
This shit with Putin isn't to just build a russian empire, its to form a block with China to basically take over from the West, basically replace the US and the EU and its surpanational organizations with their own supranational organizations hence BRICS, BRICS bank etc. Its to take over the world from the current owners, the West. Though at this point the "West" is actually just internationalists. No bullshit.
>no one wants to send Leo2s in significant numbers.
these fricking garbage politicians should literally be shot to enforce military discipline on civilian leadership
So how many of those countries have put in a formal export request. Everybody who's talking a big game about exporting leopards without actually taking concrete steps to do it is just pandering.
It's the Ukraine war equivalent for blaming the EU for an unpopular law your party supported. Whoops there's a higher power preventing us from doing the thing we totally want to do sorry. It's all bullshit
Stop it with this bullshit. This has nothing to do with Germany giving away any single one of its own tanks. This is about anyone else who owns any Leopards having permission to give away any of theirs. Or sell them. Germany is refusing to let ANY country give ANY Leopard to Ukraine.
There are over 2000 Leopards in service in Europe right now. This doesn't count any that are out of service, under maintenance, in mothball, whatever. It would be trivial to send 200 into Ukraine, it's even probable that 500 could be sent before April 1st.
There's training & logistics to consider, but 500 could be either in Ukraine or on the way before April 1st.
This is all just excuses. No one needs Germany's permission. I'm not saying that to excuse the fact they won't give it, I'm saying it because it means they're all simply different degrees of cucked. Rather than take action on their own initiative like the British, they won't do it without being backed by Germany.
This is all just excuses. No one needs Germany's permission. I'm not saying that to excuse the fact they won't give it, I'm saying it because it means they're all simply different degrees of cucked. Rather than take action on their own initiative like the British, they won't do it without being backed by Germany.
Send your formal requests for exports to Berlin anytime instead of shit posting about it for Popcorn headlines
I wonder what Rheinmetall, Thyssen Krupp and HK feel about this shit show... Why would any country buy leos when some cuck in germany gets to tell them what to do with them?
Also >imagine buying ANYTHING from the fricking swisscucks
ITT: Concrete proof that the West doesn't want Ukraine to win, they want Afghanistan 2.0 for Russia >sorry ukrains, but we need this conflict to last for at least 3-4 years so we can slowly bleed Russia dry of both men and material
>Germany itself doesn't really have any tanks
if they themselves aren't planning to use theirs for anything they could give EVERYTHING they have to Ukraine, who are sustaining casualties and probably in combat contact with the enemy right now as I am typing this
Hence why it's so weird that they are blocking the export of Leopards. Every tank that gets sent to Ukraine will need to be replaced, and then some now that Russia has gone mask-off. Do Germans simply not care about their own prosperity?
They're only "blocking" it because everyone else is for some reason willing to ask their permission. These are sovereign states, they don't need Germany's permission to send them, it's just an excuse.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Is it really so hard to say "we approve any export of leopards to ukraine"? Did Putin personally brainwash Scholz that Leopards in Ukraine mean nuclear armageddon? I can't think of any other reasons tbh.
1 year ago
Anonymous
These countries agreed on re-export restrictions, and it could be interpreted as a breach of trust if they ignore them. However, it is still not beneficial in any way for Germany to oppose this.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Who cares. What is Germany gonna do, publicly side with the Russians?
1 year ago
Anonymous
>What is Germany gonna do
be utterly fricking useless in cleaning up the mess caused by German Empire
1 year ago
Anonymous
Military sales have on-sale and disposal clauses. If you breach them then they're within rights to cease providing other parts of the contract (eg spares, technical support) and may have a case for damages. Not breaching on-sale FMS clauses is for realpolitikal reasons, not a lack of sovereignty or balls. Poland rapidly buying loads if SK shit with permissive on-sale restrictions is a decent responae. Also, grow up. Real life isn't HoI.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I don't see why anyone should care what Germany wants or thinks. Break the contract. Let them embargo everyone in response, they're just handing more contracts to the Americans. They deserve to be isolated until they stop being cowards.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I don't see why anyone should care what Germany wants or thinks.
Germany should be churning out a thousand Leopards a month right now and shipping them right into combat zone
1 year ago
Anonymous
But they're not going to, which is why I've written them off entirely. For all intents and purposes they're merely a very large American base.
1 year ago
Anonymous
the Germans should literally round up the fifth columnists and shoot them
1 year ago
Anonymous
>they're just handing more contracts to the Americans
Most of the countries on question are far more worried about greater defence dependence on America than German politicians working for Russia blocking on-sale to the Ukraine. America's power worries people, especially because the presidential system appears to be catastrophically broken, routinely electing degenerates, madmen and geriatrics to a position with enormous real power in foreign relations.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Then they can wallow in irrelevance. The idea you can rule the world with money alone is a catastrophic Euro delusion. If it weren't for the Eastern Euro countries being in the way (who don't deserve to be conquered) I'd argue for the Americans letting the Russians have at the rest of them so they can have reality slapped in their faces.
1 year ago
Anonymous
The current geriatric madman waging a war of genocidal aggression on Eastern Europe's doorstep makes your impotent seething about Trump and Biden a little holllow
1 year ago
Anonymous
Being better than russia is nothing to be proud of.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Putin is six years younger than Trump and ten years younger than Biden, and was inaugerated 23 years ago. That it, he was more than three decades younger than Biden and nearly three decades younger than Trump when they were inaugerated. Russia's political system is fricked, but don't let yourself pretend FOR EVEN A SECOND that the rest of the world has a fetish for making people who should be in nursing homes their heads of state the way America does.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>sabotage own arms industry by encouraging neighbors to buy from SK
In what way does Germany benefit from this?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Germany doesn't. The Russian agents who wield political power in Germany do. Everyone knows German politics was completely overrun with Russian assetals after reunification. Even without access to classified reporting, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Literally no one has asked
Poland keeps saying it wants to but hasnt put in a requests
Either you're all falling for basic ass propaganda or you're reddit tourists
>Why doesn't Germany just give a bunch of tanks and help Ukraine win the war?
because of sabotaging 5th columnists in Germany who should be rounded up and "shot during escape attempt"
What about German army already being a joke and not in a position to reduce their numbers in order to please beggars? This while Americans have tons of stored abrams they can get rid of.
>Scholz's new excuse is because of "german tanks on the eastern front bad!!!" or something
its absolutely fricking infuriating because soviet union was germanys mess in the first place now they don't to clean it up
>The issue of transferring Western tanks to Ukraine was not resolved at a meeting between US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin and his German counterpart Boris Pistorius, CNN reported. Many German officials are against the transfer of their tanks to Ukraine for moral reasons: "again German tanks against Russians", which is unacceptable because of the analogies with World War II.
>According to her, "despite the private pressure campaign carried out by Austin, the issue of tank deliveries remains unresolved" on the eve of a meeting of Western defense ministers at the US Ramstein Air Base in Germany. Sources of the TV company believe that the German authorities "are unlikely to change their position" on this issue. According to CNN, a number of high-ranking representatives of the US administration are expressing dissatisfaction with the position of the German government.
>Many German officials are against the transfer of their tanks to Ukraine for moral reasons: "again German tanks against Russians",
all you can say is lol
So let's say in some bizzaro world Russia was competent and rolled Ukraine and moved to the Baltics, would Germany refuse to respond because "muh Eastern front muh optics"?
>Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact >Killed shittons of Ukrainians who were happy they were invaded by someone other than the Russians during WW2
Still moronic Nazis in spirit, just incredibly politically correct ones this time trying to become buttbuddies with Russians before the inevitable happens.
>Mark "I want to understand White rage" Milley >Mark "I practically tried for a coup and simped for China" Milley
Yeah no I don't really give a shit about what he says, he can go frick himself.
On the one hand I'm ashamed of being german.
On the other hand, we were being overrun by Black folk and assorted shitskins before and will do so after. Germany is lost, germany was always going to go out with a whimper. Who cares what happens to the reputation of a dead country.
The solution is unironically Canada. Canada could divest our entire Leopard force to Ukraine, buy a K2 factory and put it in whatever province Trudy thinks he needs votes from. It would be perfect virtue signaling for him and Canada isn't reliant on much German military stuff if they get pissy over it. It would take a few years to rebuild our tank force but it's not like Canada is going to get involved in a land war without the US to hide behind.
>Q: Thank you very much. Mr. Secretary, is Germany doing enough in order to show real leadership in Europe? Thank you. > >SEC. AUSTIN: Yes, but we can all do more, and you know, the United States and every other member of the UDC can do more. > >You know, Germany has contributed a lot to this campaign. You know, from the very beginning, we saw them cycle in air defense capability, the Gepards, the Patriots most recently, IRIS-T. They've stepped up and offered to provide the Marders. They will provide the -- those Marders and conduct the training on those platforms. And we are training Ukrainian soldiers on maneuver and other things and specialty things here in Germany as well, so Germany's opened it -- continues to open its doors and make the training areas and facilities available for us to continue to do the work that we need to do. > >And Germany is also training troops and training battalion and brigade headquarters. So, you know, they have a -- a big oar in the water, like the rest of the -- of Contact Group does, and they're working hand in hand with the -- with the rest of our colleagues here.
>Ukraine is support by the whole world
but for some utterly moronic reasons, the subhuman garbage politicians are letting Ukraine suffer more casualties than necessary
No country is doing the minimum. Is there any country which opened a factory line to give Ukraine a steady supply of APCs or modern howitzers? Nope, but Germany should go all out and allow all Leopard 2 tanks to be driven into Russian artillery fire. Ridiculous.
>but Germany should go all out and allow all Leopard 2 tanks to be driven into Russian artillery fire. Ridiculous.
yes, Russias current leadership is still the soviet secret police, who were helped into power by the German Empire.
>No country is doing the minimum.
disagreed, Ukraine isn't losing. so minimum is achieved.
tho agreed that MBTs role isn't really in stabilizing defensive lines.
actually pretty sad when I saw the real aid numbers. Ukies seem to have this idea that they'll launch another offensive when the aid(s) comes but that deadline is just getting moved further and further back
stop pretending NATO isn't some US-led alliance.
If US orders Germany to send arms, they will.
The states can go frick themselves and supply their own goddamn tanks since this is clearly all this is about
Actually the entirety of western europe outside of Britan seems cool of the ukraine war
I'm chuckling at the /k/ommando kiddie rage here. Did you think when globohomosexual blew up those Baltic Sea pipelines to Germany, there wouldn't be repercussions?
Newsflash, you may be globohomo's faithful servants, obeying slavishly, but others are not. When globohomosexual told Japan to cease their massive energy transmission projects from Russia, untold billions of engineering and construction work, Japan told globohomosexual to go frick themselves.
You globohomosexual enjoyers may want to rethink all this. The eurocucks in their entirety would be next. Their economies are imploding.
It's probably fitting that it's Germany and Japan who are stymying globohomosexual now, at least showing signs of it. They got raped hard, mostly by their own tyrannical versions of globohomo, and likely know a rapist when they see one. And they know how this all ends.
And make no mistake, globohomosexual is fascist to the core.
NTA
Homosexuality, only newbies think otherwise.
Of course, the globohomosexual meme was meant as self criticism of the west, it's pathetic and hilarious when Russians or other nonwhite poorgay countries try to criticize the west. Try having toilets before you even think about comparing yourself to the west.
>Send Abrams >The only tank in the world that uses the single most inefficient and complex manner of engine (besides the T-80 which were virtually all converted to diesel) >which can only exist on cheap and plentiful oil or good logistics >While the US has supplied by far the most weaponry
Nah this is cope, America has stepped up since the first HIMARS was shipped. Krauts didn't budge on Marders until America told them Bradleys were incoming.
But the Americans aren't sending F-16s or ATACMS, which they could easily do. They literally have the opportunity to destroy the Russian bomber force and they're not taking it.
>F-16s
Can of worms which means NATO will have to set up repair depots in Poland right over the border for maintenance. >ATACMS
Still moronic boomers holding onto the notion of repeat escalation and nuclear retaliation from Russia which at this point likely won't happen.
>F-16s
Can of worms which means NATO will have to set up repair depots in Poland right over the border for maintenance. >ATACMS
Still moronic boomers holding onto the notion of repeat escalation and nuclear retaliation from Russia which at this point likely won't happen.
it's such a limp dick way of thinking
you have an opportunity to forever destroy your enemy at the cost of 0 American lives, why not take it?
This is basically a civil war within the Soviet Union.
Supplying NATO weapons to one side of the Soviet Union is not CW turning hot.
Did you already forget Afghanistan?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Russia is still lead by the soviet secret police and German Empire helped them into power, this is Germanys mess
1 year ago
Anonymous
Siloviks are no bolsheviks
1 year ago
Anonymous
stop with the subhuman garbage and send Ukraine tanks, clean up your fricking mess
1 year ago
Anonymous
it is not like afghanistan because this is actually winnable only for one side and it is NATO aligned
there is barely any support for russia west of dniepr and the eastern side is dubious at best
were the russians to wrestle a military victory somehow, they'd end up with a lot of land full of extremely hostile population
the best case for the russians is that ukraine ends up like chechnya, ruled by a warlord and barely providing any value to the russian government
1 year ago
Anonymous
Ukraine is literally the reason North Korea has ICBMs.
Ukrainian oligarchs will sell out the west.
1 year ago
Anonymous
what are they going to sell?
everything they have right now is so old a good hobbyist could replicate it
it's not like we're giving them their nukes back
1 year ago
Anonymous
Ukraine never had working nukes
1 year ago
Anonymous
the difficult part is obtaining the fissile material which can be obtained simply by disassembling soviet bombs
1 year ago
Anonymous
They did, but signed the Budapest Memorandum and gave them up
1 year ago
Anonymous
there's no reason to believe they didn't
it made sense to station nukes in Ukraine back then and it was a full part of the USSR and soviets had so many nukes that they didn't know what to do with them
Ukrops gave up their nukes in exchange for a paper and probably hopes of a faster NATO membership
neither turned out to be holding much value
physical control does not mean operational control of nukes.
Russia never gave them the codes for operational control.
1 year ago
Anonymous
assuming an operable academic base you can take the fissile material out of functional nukes and make your own weapons in the matter of days
the big bottleneck is centrifuge farms required to make the proper uranium in the first place
this is all, of course, a moot point as most nuclear warheads decay to the point of not being able to be fired in a few (less than 10) years
1 year ago
Anonymous
If you have physical access to the nukes, couldn't you just rip out the security electronics and replace them?
1 year ago
Anonymous
that's not how PAL works >Bypassing a PAL should be, as one weapons designer graphically put it, about as complex as performing a tonsillectomy while entering the patient from the wrong end.
1 year ago
Anonymous
all PAL is rendered moot once you're no longer after the device itself and you just want to extract the material
most countries have the R&D capabilities to build an ICBM given a box of fissile uranium
1 year ago
Anonymous
What if you just ripped it down to the core and build your own nuke reusing the explosive lenses? Ukraine could probably have remanufactured a warhead.
1 year ago
Anonymous
you won't get the timing and amount of explosives right to trigger the pit.
you will only end up with a dirty bomb.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You know that Ukraine more or less made a good chunk of the nuclear ballistic missile infrastructure, from the missiles to warheads themselves, right? Being one of the "smart" parts of the Soviet Union means a lot.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/882921.html
1 year ago
Anonymous
Let's assume operational control.
Now Ukraine has ICBMs with a min range of 5,000 miles. So they can reach DC but not Moscow.
DC will not be amused.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Ukraine not being allowed to point their smaller tactical nukes at Moscow instead to preserve sovereignty was a mistake.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Ukraine didn't have any tactical nukes, just strategic missile forces.
Besides ICBMs, Ukraine only had Backfires, but those bombers wouldn't reach Moscow.
So Ukraine didn't have any delivery system to realistically threaten Moscow.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>realistically threaten Moscow.
Vladivostok, Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk though...
1 year ago
Anonymous
Officer who served on them in the 90's said that they could launch them independently from the army command, they just needed authorization to "reroute" the system
@12:02
1 year ago
Anonymous
there's no reason to believe they didn't
it made sense to station nukes in Ukraine back then and it was a full part of the USSR and soviets had so many nukes that they didn't know what to do with them
Ukrops gave up their nukes in exchange for a paper and probably hopes of a faster NATO membership
neither turned out to be holding much value
>but this time no fifth column
If that were true anon, this thread wouldn't exist.
What is this weird MIC blackmail going on?
>What is this weird MIC blackmail going on?
lol, Scholz is paid off but not by Putin but by General Dynamics Land Systems.
ITT: Concrete proof that the West doesn't want Ukraine to win, they want Afghanistan 2.0 for Russia >sorry ukrains, but we need this conflict to last for at least 3-4 years so we can slowly bleed Russia dry of both men and material
>the West doesn't want Ukraine to win, they want Afghanistan 2.0 for Russia
The brutal truth is that Ukraine needs that too, they need Russia bled dry, not just driven out.
https://i.imgur.com/tajN4xN.png
The solution is unironically Canada. Canada could divest our entire Leopard force to Ukraine, buy a K2 factory and put it in whatever province Trudy thinks he needs votes from. It would be perfect virtue signaling for him and Canada isn't reliant on much German military stuff if they get pissy over it. It would take a few years to rebuild our tank force but it's not like Canada is going to get involved in a land war without the US to hide behind.
>it's not like Canada is going to get involved in a land war without the US to hide behind
Russia even has to go through Alaska to get there lol
https://i.imgur.com/5wXmpSV.jpg
I don't know if you realize this but Putin himself is extremely wealthy. So wealthy that he is possibly worth more then the next 10 oligarchs in his country combined. When he roped them into war it was because he had more influence than them and more money on the line from petroleum losses.
>Putin himself is extremely wealthy
His wealth is immaterial, he can just take whatever he wants from any of the others.
His power isn't from his wealth, it's from being able to arbitrarily arrest and imprison or just murder any of the others.
Above a certainly level of wealth in Russia; nobody makes a dollar without giving Putin a dime.
there is a point to be made there, but think about the bigger picture and what russia is made of
if CIA was able to support numerous coups in latin america, I'm sure they could manage to prop up countless separatists in russia and keep the central government busy until someone manages to consolidate power
which may or may not happen, seeing as there is no clear successor figure in current russian politics
>if CIA was able to support numerous coups in latin america, I'm sure they could manage to prop up countless separatists in russia
They don't have a good track record of this thing.
They only thing they've ever been really good at is having an in-place military coup against a democratically elected left-wing government.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>His power isn't from his wealth, it's from being able to arbitrarily arrest and imprison or just murder any of the others.
All of that costs money. He might have started out a KGB grunt but when the union collapsed and everyone in government was scooping up assets he was smart enough to go deep into the petroleum industry. He stays wealthy because he uses his secret police to get kickbacks from everyone else. Not so different from American politicians taking lobbyist money, he just happens to have a better negotiating position than most presidents since his term never ends. But the same mafia don setup he has also stagnates his own economy since no one can ever really compete economically with a protected industry. So it is a weird pseudo-command economy that is basically run by the secret police.
A dumb setup to be sure, but in this situation he is still only the most powerful oligarch of the bunch. If he could be disposed there is not doubt an underling somewhere who would be more than happy to take his place as the new mafia don.
1 year ago
Anonymous
The word you're looking for is 'kleptocracy'
1 year ago
Anonymous
the problem is that Ukraine is also a kleptocracy
1 year ago
Anonymous
Everyone is laughing at your unproven claims vatnik
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Everyone is laughing at your unproven claims vatnik
the same document that holds the proof about Ukrainian gene-engineered super soldiers and western bioweapons says zelenskys a crime lord
no, ukraine is a troubled and much-maligned post-soviet state trying to become a modern one
1 year ago
Anonymous
when were they trying?
i didn't see any reforms.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Every Ukrainian now has gun rights. This alone ensures the oligarchs can only operate behind the scenes, never openly in fear of robbery, assassination, or terrorism. Look at the US, where rich people hide in their bubbles and often die when they poke their head out. Sadly, communist states ensure their safety by restricting guns.
1 year ago
Anonymous
No, Ukraine was/is much closer to a stereotypical Latin American democracy than a Russian-style kleptocracy. There's oligarchs, but they compete with each other for control of the state, and politicians compete for their patronage, while there's an underlying current desiring real change and new faces every election. That's how Zelensky got his job, but he was losing popularity before the war since it seemed like he couldn't make real change.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Ukraine was/is much closer to a stereotypical Latin American democracy than a Russian-style kleptocracy
This makes all the shitposting about the US losing a war with Mexico even more fitting kek
1 year ago
Anonymous
Good post.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>If he could be disposed there is not doubt an underling somewhere who would be more than happy to take his place as the new mafia don
He disposes of anyone that could possibly unite or fend off their rivals and generally disposes of anyone competent enough to govern too.
Almost every dictator like this relies on playing off subordinates, promoting one, demoting another to keep them in constant conflict.
Wagner, Kadyrov, the FSB and the Army could never unite with or trust each other and prevent any of them from challenging Putin.
Putin has does this successfully enough that there really isn't anyone around who can realistically challenge him.
>All of that costs money
It doesn't cost money, it costs treasure and it's not his treasure directly, the state's assets are the treasure that he uses to pay off and punish the different factions by granting and denying them access to it. He doesn't hand Kadyrov cash, he just lets him run some industry.
And that treasure isn't required to secure his power, just to keep factions on side instead of unaligned. The FSB, laws, prison and murder don't require money, he can make dictate laws because any rebels in the Duma are arrested or murdered. He can have people arrested because the FSB work for him and he orders them, if they don't then they'll be arrested by someone else.
Judges do what they're told and maybe they're paid off but I'm sure they could disappear if they disobeyed.
This discusses the dynamics of dictator courts pretty well.
there is a point to be made there, but think about the bigger picture and what russia is made of
if CIA was able to support numerous coups in latin america, I'm sure they could manage to prop up countless separatists in russia and keep the central government busy until someone manages to consolidate power
which may or may not happen, seeing as there is no clear successor figure in current russian politics
The Russian bomber force has been destroyed for decades. They number less than 100, have low operational readiness and are in many aspects antiques that only have modest upgrades. Russia is of no threat to the US in conventional war. They haven't been for decades. Turns out losing millions of citizens, state institutions going broke, and all of your drafted Army being the remnants is more destructive than a war. Cheaper too.
Based. By including all Americans in an armed and open environment, we can ensure that the citizenry are free and safe. I make sure everyone in my legbutt group get guns and never vote for anti-gun communists.
I don/t feel like attacking Germany. It was, as usual, up to the US to show leadership and Biden failed. We run this planet, mostly, and because of that we get to print money and operate a gigantic military machine to secure our world order. The rest of the civilized industrialized world needs us to show leadership in security issues — that’s just reality, and a burden we have to take on as a part of being the world’s sole superpower and top cop protecting the free trade system. So, NO b***hing about Germany being weak and beholden to Russian dirty money. Just deal with it. Send in some M1s we already run a huge logistics network into Ukraine anyway; if we need to rack up a few more hundred billion to settle the alliance’s path to a swifter victory then so be it. Biden’s weakness and senile refusal to take good advice is frustrating, that’s all.
Sad to see Europeans betray their German brothers and the strongest nation in Europe once again.
Open your eyes. America wants to send all Leopards to Ukraine. Now Europe has no tanks anymore. Nations need new tanks. Germany can't produce enough tanks in short time. What now? Nations order tanks from the US and Korea.
This is a plot manufactured by asiatic & mutt alliance
like those have any capacity left: >The U.S. Army recently awarded a $1.148 billion contract to General Dynamics Land Systems for 250 M1A2 System Enhancement Program version 3 (SEPv3) Abrams tanks for the Polish army. >The Abrams contract was awarded in late July 2022 after Poland formally requested the tanks in July 2021. >Delivery of the Abrams tanks is scheduled to begin around January 2025, with production and manufacturing support occurring at several Army depots.
The lesson to other countries is to never buy anything from the German arms industry. They are at best an unreliable partner, if not at outright hindrance to other supposed allies security needs. Poland and Spain should go ahead send what Leos they have and either fully commit to switching to American Abrams, or Korean K2's.
I mean I wouldn't want the burned out husks of my tanks circulated around the world if I was Germany either.
Was bad enough seeing the Gepard shit itself against Shahsneeds.
Wrong, no Leopard 2 from Germany now at the moment and some Ukrainian MOD said they can train on the Leopard 2 in Germany (probably from other countries). Read the news homie
germany once again conspires with russia to oppose freedom and democracy, poland is the only true ally of freedom in central europe and together with UK and USA we uphele all that is necessary. germany has never been able to move away from the nazi past after all, also look how they still refuse to pay reparations after their cowardly allience with russia last two times
>germany has never been able to move away from the nazi past after all
this shit literally started way earlier, German Empire was instrumental in creation of soviet union and helping the subhuman Bolsheviks into power
I'm not sure about that
From what I've gathered Germany doesn't want to send tanks, let's ignore the possible reasons for now. They are under a lot of pressure to do so, so they can't say no. They basically said >We'll look into it
However you have all of the media and many politicians, some of which outright demanding for tanks and putting pressure onto the government.
I wouldn't rule out Leo's just yet.
It's a lose lose either way. Either they don't send Leos and get shit on or they say they will send Leos which will result in months long training for the Ukie crews and building up the infrastructure to service and fix the Leos. Which will result in them getting shit on for taking so long / empty promises etc
Public perception will be bad regardless
>building up the infrastructure to service and fix the Leos.
Why do non-mechanics imagine that support is difficult? Shipping is a solved problem. The end user needs little and rather basic equipment to remove and install components.
Ukraine is essentially a deployed location. One does not bring factories to FOBs.
Yup. Not a single stazi or ddr/ussr agent went to prison. Big mistake.The greens were rabidly anti nato before unification and were 100% Rusdian controlled, many Euro 'green' parties had their origins in rusdian sponsored anti NATO western nuclear disarmament groups like cnd. Europe needs to be purged of former ussr loyalists and agents, they were traitors tben and thsy and their children are now. We've seen them posting here praising the fricking east german stazi state. Internment for them all.
af is a russian agent. He even had fast track VIP clearance from the stazi and kgb to pass into east Germany back when the Berlin wa was there when he was a marxist student politician.He was always a traitor but his presence NOW is due to layers of agents of influence in the German media, german newspapers and DW are packed with russian agents of influence in deputy editorial positions to ensure the history of men like olaf never gets printed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Enemy_State_Clause >Under article 107 States are allowed to take enforcement action "as a result of" World War II against "any State which during the Second World War has been an enemy of any signatory to the present Charter", while under article 53 regional arrangements directed against the renewal of aggressive policy by a former enemy State aren't required to seek Security Council authorization before taking measures to prevent further aggression.
>Germany: NOOOO YOU CAN'T SEND LEOPARDS! >Everybody who has leopards: we're sending them anyway. Oh, and we're never buying German weapons again.
How to destroy your MIC: Schnitzel edition.
The S. Koreans are laughing all the way to the bank.
>Germany: We won't send tanks unless other NATO members send tanks
*Poland sends tanks, as does other nations* >Germany: W-w-well those aren't WESTERN tanks so we don't have to send any
*France sends their AMX tanks* >Germany: W-w-w-well those aren't Western MAIN BATTLE TANKS so we don't have to send any
*UK sends their Western MBTs* >Germany: W-w-w-w-w-w-well those aren't American so we don't have to send them! America has to send their first!
Germany has been compromised. USA is too busy sucking the EU's dick (aka Germany) over Brexit bullshit (because Biden is an angry Irish moron) that they don't want to upset that situation so they're not making it fricking clear that Germany is being c**tish.
It has been clear since the start Germany has been compromised. The list of cases of Scholz lying or fabricating to prevent sending help is long. The fact that what Germany has promised to send and has actually sent is actually quite low. That their internet defence force (of which there is a very heavy contingent on /k/) points to 'EU contributions' to prove they are 'helping' (yeah because getting some money is going to stop a Russia blowing a guys head off lol) the 2nd most.
Shut up homosexual. Russia needs to be stomped out for the rest of the world. They have shown since the fall of Communism they aren't a normal neighbour and member of the global community. The West just ignored the MANY signs for some reason. From them threatening to nuke the West over fricking anything to the invasions of Georgia and Ukraine.
Russia literally said they don't care about Western MBTs and that those will quote "burn like the rest"
https://www.rt.com/russia/570208-ukraine-tanks-negative-consequences/
Reality: >Germany: we won't send western tanks unless other nations send [meaningful amounts of] western tanks >morons: What if we send like 1 lol then they have to
Also >muh AMX
That's like saying a bradley is an abrams, anon.
But how will Germany stomp the Poland after this whole thing is over if they send all their tanks to be destroyed in Ukraine now?
Poland can always get more free shit from the US or the UK. Germany doesn’t recieve any aid.
As obviously a lot of anons do not seem to understand the entire problem, I am taking up the burden of effort posting to shed some light on the problem.
Let’s start with the strategic/policy dimension:
For most of the russian leadership, the Cold War has never ended, they perceive themselves to be at war with the west. They also consider Ukraine and control over its territory, population and resources a vital strategic interest. Which is why they have invaded the country, thrown at least 100k people and a significant part of their active military material into the blender that is high intensity conventional war. They are very determined and not going to let go.
Herein lies the first problem, commonly referred to as escalation. Sending aid to Ukraine in general and tanks in particular feeds their perception of the west trying to destroy them. If they feel threatened enough, there is a significant probability that they are going to escalate the conflict themselves, with nuclear weapons being one of the options. That cannot be taken lightly and even though edgy kids might want to play with that fire, the entire west does not. Because even limited nuclear exchange is highly undesirable. That is one of the reasons, we don’t send them ATACMS for example.
On the other hand the west has to acknowledge that Russia will likely not stop in Ukraine, so we need to get involved, even if we didn’t care for Ukraine. Balancing those two issues is complicated.
Sending tanks as a coalition serves a purpose in this dimension. If many countries are on board, escalation by Russia is discouraged.
Which is why even though Poland really wants tanks to be sent, because they are scared shitless, they want a coalition to send them.
Military dimension in Ukraine:
The Ukrainians need material. They are engaged in a war of attrition and burning through a lot of equipment. There is a lot of disinformation going around considering how successful they are trading men and material.
(1)
(cont)
I am not going to discuss those numbers because ALL numbers we are seeing are guesswork at best or straight up fabricated for propaganda purposes. Fact is that the west wouldn’t even openly be considering sending tanks if it were not necessary. Reason being escalation as discussed above.
The Ukrainians have stated that they would need about 6 battalion equivalents, roughly 300 tanks, to defeat the invasion. That is obviously a low ball teaser number to get supply started, because if they burn through those, they have an easier time asking for more. One indicator for this being the case is that Ukraine is, at least to public knowledge, operating about 16 batallion equivalents of tanks. That’s roughly 1000 hulls. If they just needed 300 tanks to throw out the Russians, this means that they are either horrendously attritted or are in fact teasing for first shipments. You might argue that western tanks have higher individual combat value than their russian counterparts, but large scale maneuver warfare is more about other factors than the individual vehicles used. There are multiple historical examples for that, we are not going into the details. What they do need though are numbers. And the lowball number of 300 vehicles is not going to cut it. Herein lies a major challenge of deciding which tank the west will be sending. Because we are not talking about 6 batallion equivalents but rather 15-20 until the war is over. That is a significant part of the western tank arsenal and convincing anybody to send those numbers is hard, even if we discount the cost of those tanks. Building supply chains for multiple tank models would be stupid, so it has to be one base model. That leaves us with either Abrams or Leopard2, because those are the only two families with sufficient numbers available. Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is. (2)
(cont)
Supply of existing hulls:
There are about 2000 Leo2 hulls of different versions and in different states of readiness available in NATO. So even if everybody is on board with sending parts of their fleet, even the teaser shipment would require every coalition member to send 15% of their hulls and those would have to be in working order. Given that military material usually has availability of 70-80% and some of the hulls are in storage, that would mean a significant reduction in operational hulls available to the operators. We are talking about 20-25% capability reduction. That is a huge number. Some members are operating small fleets. For them, sending that many hulls is not viable. Portugal for example operates 37 Leo2s, sending any significant number of tanks is impossible for them without seriously degrading their tank force. That does not only apply to operational capabilities, but also to training new tankers.
This complicates the issue further, because it means less countries will have to share the burden, degrading their own capabilities even more.
The next question would be replacement costs. The current market price for a 2A7 is €17mln. For the smaller partners, that’s a lot of money. Replacing company equivalents will come with a pricetag around €220mln give or take. As there are basically no legacy hulls available anymore, replacement will be financially impossible for countries with small budget. Even if large scale production reduces that price by 25-30%, it’s still a hefty price tag. Who is going to pay the bill? It’s not the US, because they will not pay for european tanks.
So it’s either the EU or the strong economies therein.
(3)
Replacement is not available in the next 4 years, because production lines are booked. Current output is at about a hull per week or 50/year. Let’s assume we want to replace the sent hulls in reasonable time, say 4 years. Let’s further assume that we just want to replace 2/3 of the hulls because some are being phased out. That leaves is with 50 additional hulls/ year, or a production increase by 100%. And that would just be for the teaser. If we consider realistic demand, we will need output increased by 200%, even when stretch the timeline substantially.
There are neither the factories, nor the machines, in most cases even the machines to build those machines or qualified workers available for this project. Just the ramp up time would amount to at least 18 months.
This involves several hundred companies producing components for the tank. It’s a highly complicated industrial problem and it’s not solvable by just demanding more output.
Training crews and sustaining the force are another can of worms I am not going to open because it would require another 3-4 posts.
This alone should make it rather obvious that shittalking anybody makes zero sense because the problem cannot be solved by any one nation or even just a small group of nations. It requires a broad alliance of countries, big effort and a lot of money.
Thank you for stealing my time.
Tldr; you Black folk are moronic children, go back to your shitholes and stop talking about things you do not have any idea of. Frick you, post guns.
I live by the kmw factory - they work single shift right now.
The factory literally closes for the night
So don't tell me they could not do 3 shifts on rotation - you are either fsb or brown.
Also, frick Olaf.
t. Kraut
>Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is.
There's barely any active production for Leos either. Plus from a shekel perspective if European nations suddenly give away 300-600 leopards that'll leave a big vacuum the Germs are unable to fill. Which means either the US will sweep in with Abrams or the Koreans are going to make a killing. The US indirectly pressuring Germany to send tanks while keeping their surplus Abrams around to corner that new potential market is a power play. At the end this whole thing is about money
The US cannot supply sufficient hulls either because they would need to be upgraded to newer standards. Also, all the Leopard operators would prefer the L/55 gun, as they don’t use DU ammo.
Korean lines are booked, they can’t just shit out additional 300-1000 hills in a 5 year timeframe. It’s the same problem with production.
[...]
The Ukraine is already lost. Best thing the west can do right now is to fortify Poland/Romania/Baltics as much as possible and hold the line there.
The whole Ukraine aid shit is happening only because the likes of Poland and others are seething about their failed economic/territorial expansion eastward which they seemingly hoped for after the end of the Cold War.
I don’t think that the west should cater to those morons, their delusional ambitions and unrealistic plans.
Like, seriously if you listen to what some Eastern European members say you can hear this idiotic notion that >victory is at hand!!! We just have to push harder!!!
This only gets more men killed and for what? So that poles have their own satellite states like Belarus and Ukraine and can sell their apples and beer in those countries?
Give me a break.
No, they haven’t. They are willing to grind it out and at current casualty rates, industrial output is the bottleneck rather than able bodies. It’s just now the war starts getting expensive. Tanks and planes plus support infrastructure are where the big bucks go. Each batallion equivalent of Leo2 plus support vehicles comes in at roughly a bln plus spares, ammo and training the crews.
To add: the US has major military commitments around the globe. The war in Ukraine should have made it obvious that you need sufficient reserves of material for that kind of warfare. Because not every war is GW1 with a major overmatch in C4ISR which is the true reason the coalition gumbastomped Iraq.
The Europeans are going to have to supply the hulls and pay for replacement. Part of the deal will be that it’s european vehicles only. Hope you bought Rheinmetall shares 12 months ago.
This war is a pointless waste of time and resources. Russians will take what they want regardless. NATO should’ve never have never expanded East.
And don’t give me this >muh responsibility >we gotta save le people
bullshit.
Everybody knows it’s about economic interests of the elites, not some stupid ideology.
People are dying so that richgays can get richer. Fricking great.
This war is neither pointless nor are the Russians going to take anything. It might take 3 years and medium to high three digit billions, but Russia will be militarily defeated. It’s a matter of economy and industrial capacity. Russia cannot win a war of attrition against the west, period. Given the resource intensity of modern conventional warfare, they will run out of material before Ukraine runs out of people, given the west keeps supplying Ukraine. The only real threat is monkey man flipping the board in the end, but everybody is trying to convince the people around him that he is indeed the problem and that it’s not about destroying Russia.
Which is why any type of Neo-Versailles demands would be the biggest political blunder of the 21st century. Even though it would be very much desirable from a strategic standpoint to remove the Russians from eastern Prussia, doing it would likely be a mistake as it would fuel revanchism even more than just beating them in war. The problem is that as casualties mount and large parts of Ukraine get turned into the dark side of the moon, war aims have to escalate to justify to losses.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It is a pointless waste of money and time.
No ideology is worth it.
(cont)
I am not going to discuss those numbers because ALL numbers we are seeing are guesswork at best or straight up fabricated for propaganda purposes. Fact is that the west wouldn’t even openly be considering sending tanks if it were not necessary. Reason being escalation as discussed above.
The Ukrainians have stated that they would need about 6 battalion equivalents, roughly 300 tanks, to defeat the invasion. That is obviously a low ball teaser number to get supply started, because if they burn through those, they have an easier time asking for more. One indicator for this being the case is that Ukraine is, at least to public knowledge, operating about 16 batallion equivalents of tanks. That’s roughly 1000 hulls. If they just needed 300 tanks to throw out the Russians, this means that they are either horrendously attritted or are in fact teasing for first shipments. You might argue that western tanks have higher individual combat value than their russian counterparts, but large scale maneuver warfare is more about other factors than the individual vehicles used. There are multiple historical examples for that, we are not going into the details. What they do need though are numbers. And the lowball number of 300 vehicles is not going to cut it. Herein lies a major challenge of deciding which tank the west will be sending. Because we are not talking about 6 batallion equivalents but rather 15-20 until the war is over. That is a significant part of the western tank arsenal and convincing anybody to send those numbers is hard, even if we discount the cost of those tanks. Building supply chains for multiple tank models would be stupid, so it has to be one base model. That leaves us with either Abrams or Leopard2, because those are the only two families with sufficient numbers available. Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is. (2)
The Ukraine is already lost. Best thing the west can do right now is to fortify Poland/Romania/Baltics as much as possible and hold the line there.
The whole Ukraine aid shit is happening only because the likes of Poland and others are seething about their failed economic/territorial expansion eastward which they seemingly hoped for after the end of the Cold War.
I don’t think that the west should cater to those morons, their delusional ambitions and unrealistic plans.
Like, seriously if you listen to what some Eastern European members say you can hear this idiotic notion that >victory is at hand!!! We just have to push harder!!!
This only gets more men killed and for what? So that poles have their own satellite states like Belarus and Ukraine and can sell their apples and beer in those countries?
Give me a break.
(cont)
I am not going to discuss those numbers because ALL numbers we are seeing are guesswork at best or straight up fabricated for propaganda purposes. Fact is that the west wouldn’t even openly be considering sending tanks if it were not necessary. Reason being escalation as discussed above.
The Ukrainians have stated that they would need about 6 battalion equivalents, roughly 300 tanks, to defeat the invasion. That is obviously a low ball teaser number to get supply started, because if they burn through those, they have an easier time asking for more. One indicator for this being the case is that Ukraine is, at least to public knowledge, operating about 16 batallion equivalents of tanks. That’s roughly 1000 hulls. If they just needed 300 tanks to throw out the Russians, this means that they are either horrendously attritted or are in fact teasing for first shipments. You might argue that western tanks have higher individual combat value than their russian counterparts, but large scale maneuver warfare is more about other factors than the individual vehicles used. There are multiple historical examples for that, we are not going into the details. What they do need though are numbers. And the lowball number of 300 vehicles is not going to cut it. Herein lies a major challenge of deciding which tank the west will be sending. Because we are not talking about 6 batallion equivalents but rather 15-20 until the war is over. That is a significant part of the western tank arsenal and convincing anybody to send those numbers is hard, even if we discount the cost of those tanks. Building supply chains for multiple tank models would be stupid, so it has to be one base model. That leaves us with either Abrams or Leopard2, because those are the only two families with sufficient numbers available. Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is. (2)
(cont)
Supply of existing hulls:
There are about 2000 Leo2 hulls of different versions and in different states of readiness available in NATO. So even if everybody is on board with sending parts of their fleet, even the teaser shipment would require every coalition member to send 15% of their hulls and those would have to be in working order. Given that military material usually has availability of 70-80% and some of the hulls are in storage, that would mean a significant reduction in operational hulls available to the operators. We are talking about 20-25% capability reduction. That is a huge number. Some members are operating small fleets. For them, sending that many hulls is not viable. Portugal for example operates 37 Leo2s, sending any significant number of tanks is impossible for them without seriously degrading their tank force. That does not only apply to operational capabilities, but also to training new tankers.
This complicates the issue further, because it means less countries will have to share the burden, degrading their own capabilities even more.
The next question would be replacement costs. The current market price for a 2A7 is €17mln. For the smaller partners, that’s a lot of money. Replacing company equivalents will come with a pricetag around €220mln give or take. As there are basically no legacy hulls available anymore, replacement will be financially impossible for countries with small budget. Even if large scale production reduces that price by 25-30%, it’s still a hefty price tag. Who is going to pay the bill? It’s not the US, because they will not pay for european tanks.
So it’s either the EU or the strong economies therein.
(3)
(cont)
Production:
Replacement is not available in the next 4 years, because production lines are booked. Current output is at about a hull per week or 50/year. Let’s assume we want to replace the sent hulls in reasonable time, say 4 years. Let’s further assume that we just want to replace 2/3 of the hulls because some are being phased out. That leaves is with 50 additional hulls/ year, or a production increase by 100%. And that would just be for the teaser. If we consider realistic demand, we will need output increased by 200%, even when stretch the timeline substantially.
There are neither the factories, nor the machines, in most cases even the machines to build those machines or qualified workers available for this project. Just the ramp up time would amount to at least 18 months.
This involves several hundred companies producing components for the tank. It’s a highly complicated industrial problem and it’s not solvable by just demanding more output.
Training crews and sustaining the force are another can of worms I am not going to open because it would require another 3-4 posts.
This alone should make it rather obvious that shittalking anybody makes zero sense because the problem cannot be solved by any one nation or even just a small group of nations. It requires a broad alliance of countries, big effort and a lot of money.
Thank you for stealing my time.
Tldr; you Black folk are moronic children, go back to your shitholes and stop talking about things you do not have any idea of. Frick you, post guns.
>On the other hand the west has to acknowledge that Russia will likely not stop in Ukraine,
It's not exactly a choice for Russia, they have no ability to go any further westward even if they win.
(cont)
I am not going to discuss those numbers because ALL numbers we are seeing are guesswork at best or straight up fabricated for propaganda purposes. Fact is that the west wouldn’t even openly be considering sending tanks if it were not necessary. Reason being escalation as discussed above.
The Ukrainians have stated that they would need about 6 battalion equivalents, roughly 300 tanks, to defeat the invasion. That is obviously a low ball teaser number to get supply started, because if they burn through those, they have an easier time asking for more. One indicator for this being the case is that Ukraine is, at least to public knowledge, operating about 16 batallion equivalents of tanks. That’s roughly 1000 hulls. If they just needed 300 tanks to throw out the Russians, this means that they are either horrendously attritted or are in fact teasing for first shipments. You might argue that western tanks have higher individual combat value than their russian counterparts, but large scale maneuver warfare is more about other factors than the individual vehicles used. There are multiple historical examples for that, we are not going into the details. What they do need though are numbers. And the lowball number of 300 vehicles is not going to cut it. Herein lies a major challenge of deciding which tank the west will be sending. Because we are not talking about 6 batallion equivalents but rather 15-20 until the war is over. That is a significant part of the western tank arsenal and convincing anybody to send those numbers is hard, even if we discount the cost of those tanks. Building supply chains for multiple tank models would be stupid, so it has to be one base model. That leaves us with either Abrams or Leopard2, because those are the only two families with sufficient numbers available. Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is. (2)
>Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is.
The US hasn't stopped Abrams production completely and can gear up for more anytime.
Pic related. Just be rich.
(cont)
Supply of existing hulls:
There are about 2000 Leo2 hulls of different versions and in different states of readiness available in NATO. So even if everybody is on board with sending parts of their fleet, even the teaser shipment would require every coalition member to send 15% of their hulls and those would have to be in working order. Given that military material usually has availability of 70-80% and some of the hulls are in storage, that would mean a significant reduction in operational hulls available to the operators. We are talking about 20-25% capability reduction. That is a huge number. Some members are operating small fleets. For them, sending that many hulls is not viable. Portugal for example operates 37 Leo2s, sending any significant number of tanks is impossible for them without seriously degrading their tank force. That does not only apply to operational capabilities, but also to training new tankers.
This complicates the issue further, because it means less countries will have to share the burden, degrading their own capabilities even more.
The next question would be replacement costs. The current market price for a 2A7 is €17mln. For the smaller partners, that’s a lot of money. Replacing company equivalents will come with a pricetag around €220mln give or take. As there are basically no legacy hulls available anymore, replacement will be financially impossible for countries with small budget. Even if large scale production reduces that price by 25-30%, it’s still a hefty price tag. Who is going to pay the bill? It’s not the US, because they will not pay for european tanks.
So it’s either the EU or the strong economies therein.
(3)
>As there are basically no legacy hulls available anymore,
There are still shittons of 2A4s, anon.
(cont)
Production:
Replacement is not available in the next 4 years, because production lines are booked. Current output is at about a hull per week or 50/year. Let’s assume we want to replace the sent hulls in reasonable time, say 4 years. Let’s further assume that we just want to replace 2/3 of the hulls because some are being phased out. That leaves is with 50 additional hulls/ year, or a production increase by 100%. And that would just be for the teaser. If we consider realistic demand, we will need output increased by 200%, even when stretch the timeline substantially.
There are neither the factories, nor the machines, in most cases even the machines to build those machines or qualified workers available for this project. Just the ramp up time would amount to at least 18 months.
This involves several hundred companies producing components for the tank. It’s a highly complicated industrial problem and it’s not solvable by just demanding more output.
Training crews and sustaining the force are another can of worms I am not going to open because it would require another 3-4 posts.
This alone should make it rather obvious that shittalking anybody makes zero sense because the problem cannot be solved by any one nation or even just a small group of nations. It requires a broad alliance of countries, big effort and a lot of money.
Thank you for stealing my time.
Tldr; you Black folk are moronic children, go back to your shitholes and stop talking about things you do not have any idea of. Frick you, post guns.
(4)
>This alone should make it rather obvious that shittalking anybody makes zero sense because the problem cannot be solved by any one nation or even just a small group of nations. It requires a broad alliance of countries, big effort and a lot of money. >It requires a broad alliance of countries, big effort and a lot of money.
I feel like I heard that before.
Where are the hulls supposed to come from? Who has how many spare 2A4s and is willing to give them to Ukraine?
Name sources for 300 2A4s that are operational and can actually be speed by their operators.
Do you think countries are going to pull 50% of their active fleet to burn the tanks in the steppes?
Krautshits are desperately trying to prevent the krautshit being exposed as the junk shit it is when it gets dominated by Russian chadware and goes irreparably kaputt after 2km.
Could we not send them huge numbers of modernized surplus M60's? Slap some ERA and gun stabilization and fire control systems on them and voilà! The 105mm with modern ammo is more than adequate to deal with surplus Russian tanks and the diesel requires far less fuel than the turbine on the M1.
Isn't it weird how Germany is all for gibs when it comes to Africans and Arabs but now when whites are defending themselves suddenly we have a problem with supporting them.
I suppose we have no choice but to send our sep4 versions I guess, Le sigh...
not quite out of development yet, production starts soonish
More like the Germans are a bunch of cucks that have no initiatives of their own. In a alliance, a
Initiatives are encouraged.
>patriots
Germans refused until america send them a month later.
>Bradleys
Germans refuses to give their outdated IFVs until america give the Ukrainians bradleys.
The german excuse is just a pathetic change in goal posts and its just shows how cuckes they are when it comes to foreign policies.
its mostly just scholz being the biggest fricking moron known to man
Bismarck is fricking hanging himself in his grave right now seeing this moron stumble through geopolitics
Hook a generator up to Bismarck's corpse and you wouldn't have to worry about buying r*ssian gas anymore...
>Hook a generator up to Bismarck's corpse
A Dresden Codak fan?
Bismarck was allied with Russia and went to war with France lol.
Wer hat uns verraten?
Sozialdemokraten!
Always true, akways has been, SPD is a gonna fail any expectation, any thing they promised, they will fail you.
Scholz is a afraid of the role he is playing. Afraid of a strong germany. Cuck-Scholz.
We hate him so much.
Captcha: SS4DYK, kek
Germs are doing business with vatnik oligarchs for decades. That's the entire reason their nuclear plants got fricked. Literally a nation of morons that started and lost both world wars and keeps funding a criminal regime.
Putin disposed of the oligarchs over a decade ago.
Siloviks run Russia now.
>Germs are doing business with vatnik oligarchs for decades
maybe the Russians have some dirt on them. maybe they are being blackmailed into this position
or the Germans would rather let Ukrainians die than build some fricking power plants for themselves
Germany already lost WW2 to Russia, they're not looking forward to losing WW3 to Russia
>More like the Germans are a bunch of cucks that have no initiatives of their own.
I think it has a lot to do with USA, UK and Poland blowing up Nordstream pipelines and killing the german industrial sector. They had ignored the green nutjobs and their push for wind mills because they figured that they had their own energy supply secured. Without russian gas they are totally fricked. The russian gas was not only an energy source, it was also raw material for all forms of organic chemicals.
>They had ignored the green nutjobs and their push for wind mills because they figured that they had their own energy supply secured.
yet they couldn't ignore the green nutjobs when they told them to shut down their nuke plants?
no matter how you slice it, Germans were moronic.
>yet they couldn't ignore the green nutjobs when they told them to shut down their nuke plants?
Merkel did exactly this.
Greens had a long-term plan how to slowly phase-out nuclear power while bringing alternatives online.
Merkel cancelled that when she got elected. Then Merkel abruptly phased-out nuclear power with no plan after Fukushima.
>USA, UK and Poland blowing up Nordstream pipelines and killing the german industrial sector
pffftthahahahahaha. There was literal proof of the Russians being around the pipeline before it blew up
>w-w-well they wouldn't blow up their own pipeline
Yes they would. It wasn't working. When they blew it up, Putin immediately said 'Well we can turn Nordstream 2 on for you Germany haha :)'. Then if that didn't work they can blame the evil West for doing it.
>More like the Germans are a bunch of cucks that have no initiatives of their own.
Its a US occupied country still. Also making them pathetic cucks was the entire program after ww2
Scholz is just a typicla fabian socialist like a lot of other politicians in the EU. That's pretty much it.
Germans are the biggest cucks
God I fricking hate the German government, they have all this equipment that could be used to fight an enemy that raped and occupied their country for decades, and is now raping and occupying their ally, but they would rather lick their boots. Truly a subverted and moronic nation.
tanks are literally nazi-faschism CHUDS. We as germans have a moral debt we must repay in front of our one and only liberators who defeated single handedly the vast majority of the nazi satanic army in their own homes!
Imagine telling Blücher, Freddy II, Bismarck, Moltke the absolute state of Germany today.
this is what happens when you give your little bro the controller
None of that would have happened if one moronic Austrian art school reject didn't destroy Germany within 12 years of his rule.
Sholtz is at least slightly less moronic than Wilhelm II. Slightly
They would be more outraged to see Germany being an US colony with millions of brown and black migrants than anything else.
Wrong.
They didn't mind millions of israelites.
Jews are worse than Black folk.
This is consequence of their actions. They deserve this
Its too bad, maybe its a french/british world forever. Leclerc and challengers when?
Challengers are the only western MBT going out at the moment.
What is this weird MIC blackmail going on?
This is what happens if you allow ost germans to have any significance. Ossis should not have been given a right to vote for the next 3 generations after reunifications. It's not as if they contribute economically in first place.
It's just a huge trojan horse.
It also shows how Russia ruins literally everything it touches.
Frick you, I hate russians as much as you.
Also you did you get your daily ass fricking by turk alpha males already?
>Also you did you get your daily ass fricking by turk alpha males already?
The only reason Turks (or any other foreigners, for that matter) don't come to East Germany, but DO come to West Germany, is because East Germany is *awfully* poor.
It's that simple.
Trvk here, my family paid more german taxes than your slavish rapebaby family
Grund warum euch keiner ernst nimmt, müsst erstmal beweisen das ihr mehr Wert seit als Ausländer. Wird nie passieren, daher Ronny Maul halten.
>seit
lern erstmal Deutsch
https://seitseid.de/
The soviets fricked have your population's ideology.. im sorry we should have let you win in the east before making hitler capitulate.
This germany is stuffed full of stazi and there are three million rusdian speakers in east germany now. The german left parties like the greens were soviet sockpuppers for decades.West germany was one thing, united germany and the shit from its east is another matter
green party is a US puppet, not a russian one. they were trying to legalize pedophilia in the 70s.
The grerns and all far left and right groups are Russian shit.Why are you lying?
the US is not some "right wing" state. it's an african dump administered by brooklyn israelites.
Glavset east german spammer and traitor. Jail them
Do the Germans even HAVE any tanks to spare? I'm pretty sure they'd have o strip their own forces to be able to give any to Ukraine. What's criminal is the fricking state of the German military.
Who cares, literally everyone else wants to give the Leopards, like Poland and Sweden. But Scholz is blocking those too.
They could just, you know, not listen to him.
Uniroinically are they worried about Germany throwing economic tariffs or punishment at them? Can you even do that if they're all in the EU together? Will Germany threaten never to sell German arms to them again? What if they accept that penalty? Are they worried about, like, a reputation hit or some sort of credit score thing but for imported goods? Is that even a legitimate concept in this sense?
Just fricking dont listen to the Germans. Oh, grave insult to Germany. And?
No they just don't want to harm relationships with Germany's defense contractors over this
Who cares, frick 'em.
Most big arms projects are interconnected in some way. Most high caliber cannons from western countries come from Rheinmetall or a company OWNED by Rheinmetall.
Sure, Poland can tell Rheinmetall to go frick itself but then it'll lose access to 90% of its guns that aren't rifles.
Okay, so the Germans' MIC is gonna get butthurt
Those Poles are already shaking hands with the Koreans. Japan might as well lick their chops and get in on the game as well. European arms market just opened up big time.
Is France's MIC fricking asleep
The Korean tanks are just so poland can start making their own shit.
>Is France's MIC fricking asleep
France is trying to become a major power idk if they want to send their shit.
>poland wants its own shit
of course they do and because of german autism they got a pretty good deal out of the koreans
the eventual K2PL probably won't be as good as the leopard but you'll be able to buy it without a million restrictions and poles will probably sell you spare parts blueprints as well
worst korea also likes having a factory able to manufacture their shit overseas, which is likely part of the deal
All poland has to do is get their industry up and running and then i doubt the K2pl will even be their tank for long.
it won't, but incremental designs based on it will
the poles have a reasonable industrial base and due to the invasion have gained shitload of people feeling from ukraine
of course, to think that they will eclipse german or even french industry is ludicrous, but they might prove a serious enough competitor that the germans will think twice about their policy going forward
arms manufacturers give only a shit about free cash flow. Free advertising of their wunderwaffel in a big conventional war since WW2 is not a "damaging" thing. Only thing really pissing them off is how unreliably the socialists ruling coalitiong is making them look with these idiotic export binding contracts.
as a Kraut I hope poles just fricking do it
I just want to see leopard 2s in action
Based kraut.
homie, is you fricking moronic?
>It's the law! Do not violate the law to prevent violation of law! LAW!
Fricking hell.
Blood and guts.
Men and steel.
Kill the Russian.
>>It's the law!
Yes.
>Kill the Russian.
Yes.
The ball regarding Leo2s is in Germany's court. We'll do our best through other means until they get their shit together.
The Germans won't give permission. Leo2s will go to Ukraine. German export military has committed suicide. South Korea wins. Simple as.
it makes zero sense to replace a third-gen MBTs with another third-gen MBTs.
besides some marginal number of Eastern European NATO countries that don't have third-gen MBTs yet, there's no market to lose.
Imagine the future exists. And Germany is a cuck b***h. Why in the frick would you buy from Germany when they can shut off the tap any time Russia goes full moron? Because that's the future, anon. Ukraine is just the beginning.
And the Euros who aren't completely pozzed know it.
Only Poland is making trouble and Poland always hated Germany for WW2.
Poland's populist government still calls Germans Nazis.
Poland. Right. Who has no reason to hate Russia. At all.
Mark my words. Screen cap this post, everyone who has leopards will eventually send them to Ukraine. And Germany will b***h and moan about it. And German military exports will die. And S. Korea will benefit greatly. And Russia will be expelled from Ukraine. And there will be no nuclear holocaust when Russia loses, because it's easier and more profitable to murder Putin than to commit suicide for dear leader when you're an oligarch.
>everyone who has leopards will eventually send them to Ukraine. And Germany will b***h and moan about it.
this doesn't even make sense.
Germany has Leos.
> it's easier and more profitable to murder Putin than to commit suicide for dear leader when you're an oligarch
Putin disposed of the oligarchs like two decades ago. Khodorkovsky is even out of prison now and in exile like the rest of the oligarchs that didn't want to give up their power voluntarily.
Germany sold a lot more Leo's than they they kept. Am I arguing with children?
Yes. And bots and trolls.
Fish should be ITAR restricted.
I'm so disgusted with the state of groupthink on /k/.
Russia is fricked.
Germany is fricked.
The EU remains to be seen.
Apples and oranges.
Do you think every Leo2 ever sold is still working?
CW is over. Everyone reduced their active tanks.
>Leo2s have been retired!
>The cold war it over!
>Nobody has tanks anymore!
Do you think about the things you say or are you paid to be moronic?
So you aren't going to answer the actual question.
You are comparing number of sold Leo2s vs active Leo2s in German forces.
You should count operational Leo2s from everyone.
You somehow think Germany has more active leopard 2s (false) than NATO nations who adopted the leopard2 and are willing to send them to Ukraine, but are hindered by Germany being c**ts as usual.
>NATO nations who adopted the leopard2 and are willing to send them to Ukraine
Poland wants to send a company to Ukraine.
Germany has more than a company of active Leo2s.
you are full of shit.
>Poland is the only country in NATO with leopards.
You're moronic.
German military industrial complex is suicidally pacifist.
You're both moronic because Lolabd only wants to send any if "a broad coalition of nations" does the same.
Which is the same thing Scholz has been saying for months.
Is that why the poles said that they'll do it without permission if the Germans don't unfrick themselves?
They'll do it without permission if a broad coalition of countries does it.
Which is literally Scholz' condition anyway.
You fell for polish propaganda.
True.
I heard his voice once.
There's no German insistence to send Abrams but the
>muh logistics
Argument is completely fake anyway.
Maintenance and supply depots could be set up easily. That's one of the things the US army is very good at. Look up how quickly it happend in every invaded shithole in the last 30 years.
You dense motherfricker. The fricking krauts have literally said they won't send leopards until we send Abrams. They've backpedaled since, but why wouldn't they?
>Muh logistics fake, US Army, etc
Listen here, Black person, the US Army isn't fighting in Ukraine. You've got inexpensive, easy to maintain tanks in the neighborhood. And then you've got expensive, complicated, more maintenance intensive tanks across an ocean.
I swear to fricking Christ, you "people" are all moronic.
don't believe Polish lies.
>Poland’s president Andrzej Duda said his government would send a company of German-built Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine’s army “as part of the building of an international coalition”. A company implies about 14 tanks.
that was two weeks ago and that "international coalition" still failed to materialize.
>Which is the same thing Scholz has been saying for months.
Scholz doesn't speak
The German insistence on sending US tanks is moronic. The Abrams would be a white elephant for the Ukrainians. It has an overly complicated engine, it requires more fuel, maintenance and logistics capabilities. Sending the lower maintenance, designed for conscript use, more fuel efficient leopards which are already in nations bordering Ukraine and the relative proximity to infrastructure to repair and maintain them is the least moronic option that kills more Russians per dollar spent.
I don't know why this is hard to understand.
Germans are just homosexual peaceniks.
Sack the frick up.
Ukraine said it needs 300 MBTs.
UK can send 16.
Poland can send 16.
You aren't going to get 300 MBTs by a far shot even if all the smaller European countries start committing.
Abrams are needed.
>And there will be no nuclear holocaust when Russia loses
this is just another pure zigger cope. If they get completely routed they will just memory hole this war with a copeganda spin like they have done to any other war they have lost. Like winter or WW1 or russo-japanese war etc.
Future generations cant learn much about this if the survivors have either moved on, died or been socially isolated. And the history books never talk about this war much other then a few footnotes inbetween volumes upon volumes of how mighty stronk rasha was in the great patriotic war under the iron fisted leadership of the mighty tzar stalin (the man of steel).
Memoryholing takes a while though. Immediate aftermath of the Russo-Japanese war was the 1905 revolution and the aftermath of WW1 was the Russian Civil War
>The Germans won't give permission.
A possible outcome, but what makes you so sure of it?
Because the krauts are homosexuals addicted to cheap Russian natural gas. Their entire heavy industry capability relies on it. And that's over. But they don't realize it yet
NS was destroyed. There's not much gas flowing anymore.
NS 1 was destroyed the new and intact NS2 is still around. Funny coinicide
Pipe A of NS2 was also destroyed.
Pipe B is still intact but NS2 was never turned on.
Ok. You have pretty childish and simplistic worldviews. Was there anything else?
>Childish and simplistic worldviews.
Shut up, Scholz, nobody cares.
You're already irrelevant.
because if they wanted to send military equipment to the country being invaded they wouldn't be fricking asking for every dotted line signed in triplicate would they? So long as they keep being moronic about that they will continue to show how little they actually want to help.
Anon, do you think you can export any piece of military hardware made by anybody without written permission by the source? It is a simple formality everybody sticks to. Try exporting ITAR restricted material to Ukraine without getting explicit permission and see how that works out for you.
Germany said they want a coalition:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-calls-countries-dig-deeper-ukraine-pressure-builds-tanks-2023-01-20/
Poland said they want a coalition:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-plans-give-ukraine-leopard-tanks-part-coalition-2023-01-11/
There is no coalition yet, mostly because it’s not as easy as you think to provide 300 tanks and spares. Replacement costs alone make this a major issue.
Sending token gestures like the 12CR2s is pointless. You would have to build - multiple brigade size force or it’s pointless from a logistical standpoint.
Two spearhead brigades and two regular mech brigades are 6 batallion equivalents, so roughly 300 hulls. That’s without reserves and accounting for the fact that you will never reach 100% readiness in the field.
It’s either all Leo2 operators chip in, or the thing is not going to fly.
Modern politics is a sideshow. The real power players behind the scenes, the real "deep state" if you will has always been the big money corporations, industrialists, and arms manufacturers of a 'country'. National governments are little more than the citizens representative for negotiating with the big money interests that reside in their territory.
When nations go to war it is really the "oligarchs" of that nation going to war over economic interests.
>When nations go to war it is really the "oligarchs" of that nation going to war over economic interests.
If that horseshit was true Putin wouldn't have forced Russia into an economically disastrous war while frisbeeing all his oligarchs out of windows. Not every country is the U.S.
I don't know if you realize this but Putin himself is extremely wealthy. So wealthy that he is possibly worth more then the next 10 oligarchs in his country combined. When he roped them into war it was because he had more influence than them and more money on the line from petroleum losses.
isn't putler like a full head shorter than trump
at least without his platform shoes
and getting imprisoned inside a rasha going down the toilet (more then usual) is exactly beneficial for all of that paper wealth? he invaded because he wants to build another russhitia imperial construct like the two previous versions FFS
this is what plebs with little to no savings never get. Wealth is a secondary concern. Raw, untrimmed POWER is the most highest priority for these egomaniacs. How you measure it is relative. Like Best Korea is not wealthy but is looked upon favorably by the likes of monke or pooh bear. Simply because the Kim dynasty has raw, absolute power of their subjects to do as they please. The more wealth like money you have, the less you value each million coming in as all your desires like expensive toys from mansions to women have been satisfying. Instead you start looking to convert that wealth into unrestrained, raw political power.
This shit with Putin isn't to just build a russian empire, its to form a block with China to basically take over from the West, basically replace the US and the EU and its surpanational organizations with their own supranational organizations hence BRICS, BRICS bank etc. Its to take over the world from the current owners, the West. Though at this point the "West" is actually just internationalists. No bullshit.
Trustworthiness, integrity and honoring agreements is a big part of what separates us from r*ssians.
no one wants to send Leo2s in significant numbers.
if you add them all up, it's not even enough for one BCT.
>no one wants to send Leo2s in significant numbers.
these fricking garbage politicians should literally be shot to enforce military discipline on civilian leadership
So how many of those countries have put in a formal export request. Everybody who's talking a big game about exporting leopards without actually taking concrete steps to do it is just pandering.
It's the Ukraine war equivalent for blaming the EU for an unpopular law your party supported. Whoops there's a higher power preventing us from doing the thing we totally want to do sorry. It's all bullshit
Unknown. Those requests wouldn't be public.
Last time Germany said there are no requests has almost a week ago.
Stop it with this bullshit. This has nothing to do with Germany giving away any single one of its own tanks. This is about anyone else who owns any Leopards having permission to give away any of theirs. Or sell them. Germany is refusing to let ANY country give ANY Leopard to Ukraine.
There are over 2000 Leopards in service in Europe right now. This doesn't count any that are out of service, under maintenance, in mothball, whatever. It would be trivial to send 200 into Ukraine, it's even probable that 500 could be sent before April 1st.
There's training & logistics to consider, but 500 could be either in Ukraine or on the way before April 1st.
Except, Germany ...........
This is all just excuses. No one needs Germany's permission. I'm not saying that to excuse the fact they won't give it, I'm saying it because it means they're all simply different degrees of cucked. Rather than take action on their own initiative like the British, they won't do it without being backed by Germany.
Send your formal requests for exports to Berlin anytime instead of shit posting about it for Popcorn headlines
Give any hint you might approve them and they will.
Poland and Spain have more operational Leopards than germcucks. The problem is others need their approval before sending those tanks to kill russians.
And Germany didn't immediately give their approval because ___________.
Nobody requested an export license for Leopards.
Crying that Germany won’t give them permission. This is the most butthurt belt thing ever.
Maybe the US bombing Germany’s gas pipeline has something to do with them not being eager to join americas proxy war
why would any country publish their military's operational status?
Just few years ago you had morons taking about how wars are over and no EU country needs army anymore.
But going by that, besides France, no EU country has an actual operational army.
The all will run out of ammunition within days.
Leopard 2 confirmed so bad the Krauts are embarrassed to send their wunderwaffe to fight in a real war. Lmao
Leo 2 is quite good and Turkey made them look good.
The greens are estroying the german heavy weapons industry and the kremlin is delighted with agent olaf.
fake news.
Greens are the most militaristic party in Germany and want to give Leopards to Ukraine.
Yet they are not. Olafs a vatBlack person agent.
Olaf isn't a member of the Greens
I wonder what Rheinmetall, Thyssen Krupp and HK feel about this shit show... Why would any country buy leos when some cuck in germany gets to tell them what to do with them?
Also
>imagine buying ANYTHING from the fricking swisscucks
ITT: Concrete proof that the West doesn't want Ukraine to win, they want Afghanistan 2.0 for Russia
>sorry ukrains, but we need this conflict to last for at least 3-4 years so we can slowly bleed Russia dry of both men and material
Dont be too harsh on him
its my baby's first geopolitics ;(
So like what even is the rationale for "I won't give tanks unless USA does it furst"?
thats not even the current excuse anymore
Scholz's new excuse is because of "german tanks on the eastern front bad!!!" or something
Why do they need excuses? Why doesn't Germany just give a bunch of tanks and help Ukraine win the war?
Germany itself doesn't really have any tanks, it's more about everyone else.
>Germany itself doesn't really have any tanks
if they themselves aren't planning to use theirs for anything they could give EVERYTHING they have to Ukraine, who are sustaining casualties and probably in combat contact with the enemy right now as I am typing this
Germany has more tanks then France or Britain
and its Defense Companies still have some in storage just waiting to be used
Hence why it's so weird that they are blocking the export of Leopards. Every tank that gets sent to Ukraine will need to be replaced, and then some now that Russia has gone mask-off. Do Germans simply not care about their own prosperity?
They're only "blocking" it because everyone else is for some reason willing to ask their permission. These are sovereign states, they don't need Germany's permission to send them, it's just an excuse.
Is it really so hard to say "we approve any export of leopards to ukraine"? Did Putin personally brainwash Scholz that Leopards in Ukraine mean nuclear armageddon? I can't think of any other reasons tbh.
These countries agreed on re-export restrictions, and it could be interpreted as a breach of trust if they ignore them. However, it is still not beneficial in any way for Germany to oppose this.
Who cares. What is Germany gonna do, publicly side with the Russians?
>What is Germany gonna do
be utterly fricking useless in cleaning up the mess caused by German Empire
Military sales have on-sale and disposal clauses. If you breach them then they're within rights to cease providing other parts of the contract (eg spares, technical support) and may have a case for damages. Not breaching on-sale FMS clauses is for realpolitikal reasons, not a lack of sovereignty or balls. Poland rapidly buying loads if SK shit with permissive on-sale restrictions is a decent responae. Also, grow up. Real life isn't HoI.
I don't see why anyone should care what Germany wants or thinks. Break the contract. Let them embargo everyone in response, they're just handing more contracts to the Americans. They deserve to be isolated until they stop being cowards.
>I don't see why anyone should care what Germany wants or thinks.
Germany should be churning out a thousand Leopards a month right now and shipping them right into combat zone
But they're not going to, which is why I've written them off entirely. For all intents and purposes they're merely a very large American base.
the Germans should literally round up the fifth columnists and shoot them
>they're just handing more contracts to the Americans
Most of the countries on question are far more worried about greater defence dependence on America than German politicians working for Russia blocking on-sale to the Ukraine. America's power worries people, especially because the presidential system appears to be catastrophically broken, routinely electing degenerates, madmen and geriatrics to a position with enormous real power in foreign relations.
Then they can wallow in irrelevance. The idea you can rule the world with money alone is a catastrophic Euro delusion. If it weren't for the Eastern Euro countries being in the way (who don't deserve to be conquered) I'd argue for the Americans letting the Russians have at the rest of them so they can have reality slapped in their faces.
The current geriatric madman waging a war of genocidal aggression on Eastern Europe's doorstep makes your impotent seething about Trump and Biden a little holllow
Being better than russia is nothing to be proud of.
Putin is six years younger than Trump and ten years younger than Biden, and was inaugerated 23 years ago. That it, he was more than three decades younger than Biden and nearly three decades younger than Trump when they were inaugerated. Russia's political system is fricked, but don't let yourself pretend FOR EVEN A SECOND that the rest of the world has a fetish for making people who should be in nursing homes their heads of state the way America does.
>sabotage own arms industry by encouraging neighbors to buy from SK
In what way does Germany benefit from this?
Germany doesn't. The Russian agents who wield political power in Germany do. Everyone knows German politics was completely overrun with Russian assetals after reunification. Even without access to classified reporting, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.
Literally no one has asked
Poland keeps saying it wants to but hasnt put in a requests
Either you're all falling for basic ass propaganda or you're reddit tourists
I don’t think they know how to war anymore since it’s been almost more than a century.
>Why doesn't Germany just give a bunch of tanks and help Ukraine win the war?
because of sabotaging 5th columnists in Germany who should be rounded up and "shot during escape attempt"
Are there any pro-ukrainian demonstrations at least?
What about German army already being a joke and not in a position to reduce their numbers in order to please beggars? This while Americans have tons of stored abrams they can get rid of.
>Scholz's new excuse is because of "german tanks on the eastern front bad!!!" or something
its absolutely fricking infuriating because soviet union was germanys mess in the first place now they don't to clean it up
>The issue of transferring Western tanks to Ukraine was not resolved at a meeting between US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin and his German counterpart Boris Pistorius, CNN reported. Many German officials are against the transfer of their tanks to Ukraine for moral reasons: "again German tanks against Russians", which is unacceptable because of the analogies with World War II.
>According to her, "despite the private pressure campaign carried out by Austin, the issue of tank deliveries remains unresolved" on the eve of a meeting of Western defense ministers at the US Ramstein Air Base in Germany. Sources of the TV company believe that the German authorities "are unlikely to change their position" on this issue. According to CNN, a number of high-ranking representatives of the US administration are expressing dissatisfaction with the position of the German government.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/19/politics/us-germany-ukraine-tanks-weapons/index.html
>Many German officials are against the transfer of their tanks to Ukraine for moral reasons: "again German tanks against Russians",
all you can say is lol
it sounds like a parody
Ignoring that they killed millions of Ukrainians as well...
Bolshevik were bankrolled by the German Empire
>moral reasons
>again German tanks against Russians
when was war ever moral?
So let's say in some bizzaro world Russia was competent and rolled Ukraine and moved to the Baltics, would Germany refuse to respond because "muh Eastern front muh optics"?
NATO article 5 gets invoked: US generals are at the top of the chain of the command for German forces.
German politicians can only watch.
Depends. Would the Russians still sell them cheap gas?
Germany owns Russian gas fields, they wouldn't need to pay
>Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact
>Killed shittons of Ukrainians who were happy they were invaded by someone other than the Russians during WW2
Still moronic Nazis in spirit, just incredibly politically correct ones this time trying to become buttbuddies with Russians before the inevitable happens.
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff again said that it's moronic to go for a military win and we should negotiate peace.
instant you want to escalate the conflict further with more weapons.
>Mark "I want to understand White rage" Milley
>Mark "I practically tried for a coup and simped for China" Milley
Yeah no I don't really give a shit about what he says, he can go frick himself.
oh no that sucks haha
Reminder that no country has actually requested to export Leopards to Ukraine.
Germany hasn't blocked anything.
On the one hand I'm ashamed of being german.
On the other hand, we were being overrun by Black folk and assorted shitskins before and will do so after. Germany is lost, germany was always going to go out with a whimper. Who cares what happens to the reputation of a dead country.
The solution is unironically Canada. Canada could divest our entire Leopard force to Ukraine, buy a K2 factory and put it in whatever province Trudy thinks he needs votes from. It would be perfect virtue signaling for him and Canada isn't reliant on much German military stuff if they get pissy over it. It would take a few years to rebuild our tank force but it's not like Canada is going to get involved in a land war without the US to hide behind.
>Q: Thank you very much. Mr. Secretary, is Germany doing enough in order to show real leadership in Europe? Thank you.
>
>SEC. AUSTIN: Yes, but we can all do more, and you know, the United States and every other member of the UDC can do more.
>
>You know, Germany has contributed a lot to this campaign. You know, from the very beginning, we saw them cycle in air defense capability, the Gepards, the Patriots most recently, IRIS-T. They've stepped up and offered to provide the Marders. They will provide the -- those Marders and conduct the training on those platforms. And we are training Ukrainian soldiers on maneuver and other things and specialty things here in Germany as well, so Germany's opened it -- continues to open its doors and make the training areas and facilities available for us to continue to do the work that we need to do.
>
>And Germany is also training troops and training battalion and brigade headquarters. So, you know, they have a -- a big oar in the water, like the rest of the -- of Contact Group does, and they're working hand in hand with the -- with the rest of our colleagues here.
More vatnik's coping for things thatisn't real. Ukraine is support by the whole world. Suck it pidor.
>Ukraine is support by the whole world
but for some utterly moronic reasons, the subhuman garbage politicians are letting Ukraine suffer more casualties than necessary
No country is doing the minimum. Is there any country which opened a factory line to give Ukraine a steady supply of APCs or modern howitzers? Nope, but Germany should go all out and allow all Leopard 2 tanks to be driven into Russian artillery fire. Ridiculous.
>but Germany should go all out and allow all Leopard 2 tanks to be driven into Russian artillery fire. Ridiculous.
yes, Russias current leadership is still the soviet secret police, who were helped into power by the German Empire.
MBTs are maneuverable and can break through lines
>No country is doing the minimum.
disagreed, Ukraine isn't losing. so minimum is achieved.
tho agreed that MBTs role isn't really in stabilizing defensive lines.
actually pretty sad when I saw the real aid numbers. Ukies seem to have this idea that they'll launch another offensive when the aid(s) comes but that deadline is just getting moved further and further back
The states can go frick themselves and supply their own goddamn tanks since this is clearly all this is about
Actually the entirety of western europe outside of Britan seems cool of the ukraine war
Germans are eternal traitors
I'm chuckling at the /k/ommando kiddie rage here. Did you think when globohomosexual blew up those Baltic Sea pipelines to Germany, there wouldn't be repercussions?
Newsflash, you may be globohomo's faithful servants, obeying slavishly, but others are not. When globohomosexual told Japan to cease their massive energy transmission projects from Russia, untold billions of engineering and construction work, Japan told globohomosexual to go frick themselves.
You globohomosexual enjoyers may want to rethink all this. The eurocucks in their entirety would be next. Their economies are imploding.
It's probably fitting that it's Germany and Japan who are stymying globohomosexual now, at least showing signs of it. They got raped hard, mostly by their own tyrannical versions of globohomo, and likely know a rapist when they see one. And they know how this all ends.
And make no mistake, globohomosexual is fascist to the core.
does the homosexual in globohomosexual stand for homosexuality or homogenization?
superior homo
NTA
Homosexuality, only newbies think otherwise.
Of course, the globohomosexual meme was meant as self criticism of the west, it's pathetic and hilarious when Russians or other nonwhite poorgay countries try to criticize the west. Try having toilets before you even think about comparing yourself to the west.
It stands for homosapiens
all these self declared "enemies of globohomo" are enemies of civilized humanity.
>globohomosexual is civilized humanity.
Kek
please note politicians aren't people
>does the homosexual in globohomosexual stand for homosexuality or homogenization?
Originally, it was homogenization, but the term could equally well stand for homosexual homogenization.
>Send Abrams
>The only tank in the world that uses the single most inefficient and complex manner of engine (besides the T-80 which were virtually all converted to diesel)
>which can only exist on cheap and plentiful oil or good logistics
>While the US has supplied by far the most weaponry
Nah this is cope, America has stepped up since the first HIMARS was shipped. Krauts didn't budge on Marders until America told them Bradleys were incoming.
But the Americans aren't sending F-16s or ATACMS, which they could easily do. They literally have the opportunity to destroy the Russian bomber force and they're not taking it.
>F-16s
Can of worms which means NATO will have to set up repair depots in Poland right over the border for maintenance.
>ATACMS
Still moronic boomers holding onto the notion of repeat escalation and nuclear retaliation from Russia which at this point likely won't happen.
Boomers will be dead soon. Need to ensure WW3 happens.
even if, US would supply those: US will never allow for rules of engagement to chase Russian bombers into enemy territory.
US rather lost Vietnam.
it's such a limp dick way of thinking
you have an opportunity to forever destroy your enemy at the cost of 0 American lives, why not take it?
>you have an opportunity to forever destroy your enemy at the cost of 0 American lives, why not take it?
Literally this. Ukraine is a godsend.
Cold war gone hot but this time no fifth column.
This is basically a civil war within the Soviet Union.
Supplying NATO weapons to one side of the Soviet Union is not CW turning hot.
Did you already forget Afghanistan?
Russia is still lead by the soviet secret police and German Empire helped them into power, this is Germanys mess
Siloviks are no bolsheviks
stop with the subhuman garbage and send Ukraine tanks, clean up your fricking mess
it is not like afghanistan because this is actually winnable only for one side and it is NATO aligned
there is barely any support for russia west of dniepr and the eastern side is dubious at best
were the russians to wrestle a military victory somehow, they'd end up with a lot of land full of extremely hostile population
the best case for the russians is that ukraine ends up like chechnya, ruled by a warlord and barely providing any value to the russian government
Ukraine is literally the reason North Korea has ICBMs.
Ukrainian oligarchs will sell out the west.
what are they going to sell?
everything they have right now is so old a good hobbyist could replicate it
it's not like we're giving them their nukes back
Ukraine never had working nukes
the difficult part is obtaining the fissile material which can be obtained simply by disassembling soviet bombs
They did, but signed the Budapest Memorandum and gave them up
physical control does not mean operational control of nukes.
Russia never gave them the codes for operational control.
assuming an operable academic base you can take the fissile material out of functional nukes and make your own weapons in the matter of days
the big bottleneck is centrifuge farms required to make the proper uranium in the first place
this is all, of course, a moot point as most nuclear warheads decay to the point of not being able to be fired in a few (less than 10) years
If you have physical access to the nukes, couldn't you just rip out the security electronics and replace them?
that's not how PAL works
>Bypassing a PAL should be, as one weapons designer graphically put it, about as complex as performing a tonsillectomy while entering the patient from the wrong end.
all PAL is rendered moot once you're no longer after the device itself and you just want to extract the material
most countries have the R&D capabilities to build an ICBM given a box of fissile uranium
What if you just ripped it down to the core and build your own nuke reusing the explosive lenses? Ukraine could probably have remanufactured a warhead.
you won't get the timing and amount of explosives right to trigger the pit.
you will only end up with a dirty bomb.
You know that Ukraine more or less made a good chunk of the nuclear ballistic missile infrastructure, from the missiles to warheads themselves, right? Being one of the "smart" parts of the Soviet Union means a lot.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/882921.html
Let's assume operational control.
Now Ukraine has ICBMs with a min range of 5,000 miles. So they can reach DC but not Moscow.
DC will not be amused.
>Ukraine not being allowed to point their smaller tactical nukes at Moscow instead to preserve sovereignty was a mistake.
Ukraine didn't have any tactical nukes, just strategic missile forces.
Besides ICBMs, Ukraine only had Backfires, but those bombers wouldn't reach Moscow.
So Ukraine didn't have any delivery system to realistically threaten Moscow.
>realistically threaten Moscow.
Vladivostok, Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk though...
Officer who served on them in the 90's said that they could launch them independently from the army command, they just needed authorization to "reroute" the system
@12:02
there's no reason to believe they didn't
it made sense to station nukes in Ukraine back then and it was a full part of the USSR and soviets had so many nukes that they didn't know what to do with them
Ukrops gave up their nukes in exchange for a paper and probably hopes of a faster NATO membership
neither turned out to be holding much value
>but this time no fifth column
If that were true anon, this thread wouldn't exist.
>What is this weird MIC blackmail going on?
lol, Scholz is paid off but not by Putin but by General Dynamics Land Systems.
>the West doesn't want Ukraine to win, they want Afghanistan 2.0 for Russia
The brutal truth is that Ukraine needs that too, they need Russia bled dry, not just driven out.
>it's not like Canada is going to get involved in a land war without the US to hide behind
Russia even has to go through Alaska to get there lol
>Putin himself is extremely wealthy
His wealth is immaterial, he can just take whatever he wants from any of the others.
His power isn't from his wealth, it's from being able to arbitrarily arrest and imprison or just murder any of the others.
Above a certainly level of wealth in Russia; nobody makes a dollar without giving Putin a dime.
>if CIA was able to support numerous coups in latin america, I'm sure they could manage to prop up countless separatists in russia
They don't have a good track record of this thing.
They only thing they've ever been really good at is having an in-place military coup against a democratically elected left-wing government.
>His power isn't from his wealth, it's from being able to arbitrarily arrest and imprison or just murder any of the others.
All of that costs money. He might have started out a KGB grunt but when the union collapsed and everyone in government was scooping up assets he was smart enough to go deep into the petroleum industry. He stays wealthy because he uses his secret police to get kickbacks from everyone else. Not so different from American politicians taking lobbyist money, he just happens to have a better negotiating position than most presidents since his term never ends. But the same mafia don setup he has also stagnates his own economy since no one can ever really compete economically with a protected industry. So it is a weird pseudo-command economy that is basically run by the secret police.
A dumb setup to be sure, but in this situation he is still only the most powerful oligarch of the bunch. If he could be disposed there is not doubt an underling somewhere who would be more than happy to take his place as the new mafia don.
The word you're looking for is 'kleptocracy'
the problem is that Ukraine is also a kleptocracy
Everyone is laughing at your unproven claims vatnik
>Everyone is laughing at your unproven claims vatnik
the same document that holds the proof about Ukrainian gene-engineered super soldiers and western bioweapons says zelenskys a crime lord
>Criminal Activities
>knee-breaker
>contract killer
>pimp
>drug dealer
>counterfeiter (of welfare chits)
>brothel-keeper
>gambling overlord
>smuggler
no, ukraine is a troubled and much-maligned post-soviet state trying to become a modern one
when were they trying?
i didn't see any reforms.
Every Ukrainian now has gun rights. This alone ensures the oligarchs can only operate behind the scenes, never openly in fear of robbery, assassination, or terrorism. Look at the US, where rich people hide in their bubbles and often die when they poke their head out. Sadly, communist states ensure their safety by restricting guns.
No, Ukraine was/is much closer to a stereotypical Latin American democracy than a Russian-style kleptocracy. There's oligarchs, but they compete with each other for control of the state, and politicians compete for their patronage, while there's an underlying current desiring real change and new faces every election. That's how Zelensky got his job, but he was losing popularity before the war since it seemed like he couldn't make real change.
>Ukraine was/is much closer to a stereotypical Latin American democracy than a Russian-style kleptocracy
This makes all the shitposting about the US losing a war with Mexico even more fitting kek
Good post.
>If he could be disposed there is not doubt an underling somewhere who would be more than happy to take his place as the new mafia don
He disposes of anyone that could possibly unite or fend off their rivals and generally disposes of anyone competent enough to govern too.
Almost every dictator like this relies on playing off subordinates, promoting one, demoting another to keep them in constant conflict.
Wagner, Kadyrov, the FSB and the Army could never unite with or trust each other and prevent any of them from challenging Putin.
Putin has does this successfully enough that there really isn't anyone around who can realistically challenge him.
>All of that costs money
It doesn't cost money, it costs treasure and it's not his treasure directly, the state's assets are the treasure that he uses to pay off and punish the different factions by granting and denying them access to it. He doesn't hand Kadyrov cash, he just lets him run some industry.
And that treasure isn't required to secure his power, just to keep factions on side instead of unaligned. The FSB, laws, prison and murder don't require money, he can make dictate laws because any rebels in the Duma are arrested or murdered. He can have people arrested because the FSB work for him and he orders them, if they don't then they'll be arrested by someone else.
Judges do what they're told and maybe they're paid off but I'm sure they could disappear if they disobeyed.
This discusses the dynamics of dictator courts pretty well.
That's not true: a swift victory for Ukraine is not in the interest of the US.
Russia will regroup.
A continued war between Ukraine and Russia will keep Russia busy.
just abruptly dismember the part of Russia inside Ukraine without a warning, if they don't back down blast Putin to bits and offer peace
there is a point to be made there, but think about the bigger picture and what russia is made of
if CIA was able to support numerous coups in latin america, I'm sure they could manage to prop up countless separatists in russia and keep the central government busy until someone manages to consolidate power
which may or may not happen, seeing as there is no clear successor figure in current russian politics
They should. All of Russia is a legitimate target.
>But the Americans aren't sending F-16s
Please ignore the eastern european looking folks in the SW being trained in F16s by USAF
The Russian bomber force has been destroyed for decades. They number less than 100, have low operational readiness and are in many aspects antiques that only have modest upgrades. Russia is of no threat to the US in conventional war. They haven't been for decades. Turns out losing millions of citizens, state institutions going broke, and all of your drafted Army being the remnants is more destructive than a war. Cheaper too.
Based. By including all Americans in an armed and open environment, we can ensure that the citizenry are free and safe. I make sure everyone in my legbutt group get guns and never vote for anti-gun communists.
One of these is fake and gay, the other is Murica
I don/t feel like attacking Germany. It was, as usual, up to the US to show leadership and Biden failed. We run this planet, mostly, and because of that we get to print money and operate a gigantic military machine to secure our world order. The rest of the civilized industrialized world needs us to show leadership in security issues — that’s just reality, and a burden we have to take on as a part of being the world’s sole superpower and top cop protecting the free trade system. So, NO b***hing about Germany being weak and beholden to Russian dirty money. Just deal with it. Send in some M1s we already run a huge logistics network into Ukraine anyway; if we need to rack up a few more hundred billion to settle the alliance’s path to a swifter victory then so be it. Biden’s weakness and senile refusal to take good advice is frustrating, that’s all.
Sad to see Europeans betray their German brothers and the strongest nation in Europe once again.
Open your eyes. America wants to send all Leopards to Ukraine. Now Europe has no tanks anymore. Nations need new tanks. Germany can't produce enough tanks in short time. What now? Nations order tanks from the US and Korea.
This is a plot manufactured by asiatic & mutt alliance
like those have any capacity left:
>The U.S. Army recently awarded a $1.148 billion contract to General Dynamics Land Systems for 250 M1A2 System Enhancement Program version 3 (SEPv3) Abrams tanks for the Polish army.
>The Abrams contract was awarded in late July 2022 after Poland formally requested the tanks in July 2021.
>Delivery of the Abrams tanks is scheduled to begin around January 2025, with production and manufacturing support occurring at several Army depots.
The lesson to other countries is to never buy anything from the German arms industry. They are at best an unreliable partner, if not at outright hindrance to other supposed allies security needs. Poland and Spain should go ahead send what Leos they have and either fully commit to switching to American Abrams, or Korean K2's.
stop pretending NATO isn't some US-led alliance.
If US orders Germany to send arms, they will.
Sorry anon but Russian master-slave dynamic isn't how the world works,no matter how cynically you try to convince yourself so
you are delusional if you think Germany would say the same to the US as to Poland. power dynamic is completely different.
I mean I wouldn't want the burned out husks of my tanks circulated around the world if I was Germany either.
Was bad enough seeing the Gepard shit itself against Shahsneeds.
Wrong, no Leopard 2 from Germany now at the moment and some Ukrainian MOD said they can train on the Leopard 2 in Germany (probably from other countries). Read the news homie
germany once again conspires with russia to oppose freedom and democracy, poland is the only true ally of freedom in central europe and together with UK and USA we uphele all that is necessary. germany has never been able to move away from the nazi past after all, also look how they still refuse to pay reparations after their cowardly allience with russia last two times
>germany has never been able to move away from the nazi past after all
this shit literally started way earlier, German Empire was instrumental in creation of soviet union and helping the subhuman Bolsheviks into power
Why don’t you homosexuals post the actual articles instead of Reddit thumbnails?
I'm not sure about that
From what I've gathered Germany doesn't want to send tanks, let's ignore the possible reasons for now. They are under a lot of pressure to do so, so they can't say no. They basically said
>We'll look into it
However you have all of the media and many politicians, some of which outright demanding for tanks and putting pressure onto the government.
I wouldn't rule out Leo's just yet.
Of course they're going to send them eventually, they're probably just trying to set things up for a Leopard coalition behind the scenes.
Bribe the fricking Germans. It's all they care about anyway.
Give them great deals on gasoline.
It's a lose lose either way. Either they don't send Leos and get shit on or they say they will send Leos which will result in months long training for the Ukie crews and building up the infrastructure to service and fix the Leos. Which will result in them getting shit on for taking so long / empty promises etc
Public perception will be bad regardless
>building up the infrastructure to service and fix the Leos.
Why do non-mechanics imagine that support is difficult? Shipping is a solved problem. The end user needs little and rather basic equipment to remove and install components.
Ukraine is essentially a deployed location. One does not bring factories to FOBs.
Germany has a repair hub in Slovakia that they expand every time they send new shit.
Nahh germany is hopeful they will cut a deal with Russia after the war (they won’t).
So what stops Poland from taking in a bunch of Ukrainian tank crews and training them on the Leopard right now?
Too busy cleaning European toilets
america will have to step up and start flying unmarked F16's with our pilots like the soviets did in korea 🙂
>German government who is still loyal to the Russians attempts to prevent arms from reaching Ukraine
Shocker.
Yup. Not a single stazi or ddr/ussr agent went to prison. Big mistake.The greens were rabidly anti nato before unification and were 100% Rusdian controlled, many Euro 'green' parties had their origins in rusdian sponsored anti NATO western nuclear disarmament groups like cnd. Europe needs to be purged of former ussr loyalists and agents, they were traitors tben and thsy and their children are now. We've seen them posting here praising the fricking east german stazi state. Internment for them all.
nulla poena sine lege
This
It's pretty obvious that the stasi never left and have groomed and left agents that eventually took power in Germany
af is a russian agent. He even had fast track VIP clearance from the stazi and kgb to pass into east Germany back when the Berlin wa was there when he was a marxist student politician.He was always a traitor but his presence NOW is due to layers of agents of influence in the German media, german newspapers and DW are packed with russian agents of influence in deputy editorial positions to ensure the history of men like olaf never gets printed.
>americans seething about germans not being bloodthirsty enough
you reap what you sow
not tipping the war in Ukraines favor actually will prolong it and spill more Slavic blood
The Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany was a mistake. Germany shouldn't have been trusted to handle sovereignty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Enemy_State_Clause
>Under article 107 States are allowed to take enforcement action "as a result of" World War II against "any State which during the Second World War has been an enemy of any signatory to the present Charter", while under article 53 regional arrangements directed against the renewal of aggressive policy by a former enemy State aren't required to seek Security Council authorization before taking measures to prevent further aggression.
>Germany: NOOOO YOU CAN'T SEND LEOPARDS!
>Everybody who has leopards: we're sending them anyway. Oh, and we're never buying German weapons again.
How to destroy your MIC: Schnitzel edition.
The S. Koreans are laughing all the way to the bank.
more like Poland ran to press instead of asking Germany.
now Germany insists to follow the proper process.
Mmmhmmm hail Odin and all that jazz.
I'ma laugh when the poles reverse colonize you
>Germany: We won't send tanks unless other NATO members send tanks
*Poland sends tanks, as does other nations*
>Germany: W-w-well those aren't WESTERN tanks so we don't have to send any
*France sends their AMX tanks*
>Germany: W-w-w-well those aren't Western MAIN BATTLE TANKS so we don't have to send any
*UK sends their Western MBTs*
>Germany: W-w-w-w-w-w-well those aren't American so we don't have to send them! America has to send their first!
Germany has been compromised. USA is too busy sucking the EU's dick (aka Germany) over Brexit bullshit (because Biden is an angry Irish moron) that they don't want to upset that situation so they're not making it fricking clear that Germany is being c**tish.
It has been clear since the start Germany has been compromised. The list of cases of Scholz lying or fabricating to prevent sending help is long. The fact that what Germany has promised to send and has actually sent is actually quite low. That their internet defence force (of which there is a very heavy contingent on /k/) points to 'EU contributions' to prove they are 'helping' (yeah because getting some money is going to stop a Russia blowing a guys head off lol) the 2nd most.
Germany is just fricked.
Your militarism doesn't impress me.
What's the point of those MBTs?
What will Ukraine ask next?
Why isn't Biden flying to Moscow and negotiate peace?
Shut up homosexual. Russia needs to be stomped out for the rest of the world. They have shown since the fall of Communism they aren't a normal neighbour and member of the global community. The West just ignored the MANY signs for some reason. From them threatening to nuke the West over fricking anything to the invasions of Georgia and Ukraine.
Russia literally said they don't care about Western MBTs and that those will quote "burn like the rest"
https://www.rt.com/russia/570208-ukraine-tanks-negative-consequences/
Why are you so brown?
>delusional bong detected
Frick off moron, I'm Irish. That's exactly my point.
>I'm Irish
Same thing, both delusional.
Reality:
>Germany: we won't send western tanks unless other nations send [meaningful amounts of] western tanks
>morons: What if we send like 1 lol then they have to
Also
>muh AMX
That's like saying a bradley is an abrams, anon.
But how will Germany stomp the Poland after this whole thing is over if they send all their tanks to be destroyed in Ukraine now?
Poland can always get more free shit from the US or the UK. Germany doesn’t recieve any aid.
I was told that Ukrainians are a race of 200IQ MacGyvers on steroids. Can't they just build their own tanks?
You will never have a blonde, white gf, Rajneesh.
As obviously a lot of anons do not seem to understand the entire problem, I am taking up the burden of effort posting to shed some light on the problem.
Let’s start with the strategic/policy dimension:
For most of the russian leadership, the Cold War has never ended, they perceive themselves to be at war with the west. They also consider Ukraine and control over its territory, population and resources a vital strategic interest. Which is why they have invaded the country, thrown at least 100k people and a significant part of their active military material into the blender that is high intensity conventional war. They are very determined and not going to let go.
Herein lies the first problem, commonly referred to as escalation. Sending aid to Ukraine in general and tanks in particular feeds their perception of the west trying to destroy them. If they feel threatened enough, there is a significant probability that they are going to escalate the conflict themselves, with nuclear weapons being one of the options. That cannot be taken lightly and even though edgy kids might want to play with that fire, the entire west does not. Because even limited nuclear exchange is highly undesirable. That is one of the reasons, we don’t send them ATACMS for example.
On the other hand the west has to acknowledge that Russia will likely not stop in Ukraine, so we need to get involved, even if we didn’t care for Ukraine. Balancing those two issues is complicated.
Sending tanks as a coalition serves a purpose in this dimension. If many countries are on board, escalation by Russia is discouraged.
Which is why even though Poland really wants tanks to be sent, because they are scared shitless, they want a coalition to send them.
Military dimension in Ukraine:
The Ukrainians need material. They are engaged in a war of attrition and burning through a lot of equipment. There is a lot of disinformation going around considering how successful they are trading men and material.
(1)
(cont)
I am not going to discuss those numbers because ALL numbers we are seeing are guesswork at best or straight up fabricated for propaganda purposes. Fact is that the west wouldn’t even openly be considering sending tanks if it were not necessary. Reason being escalation as discussed above.
The Ukrainians have stated that they would need about 6 battalion equivalents, roughly 300 tanks, to defeat the invasion. That is obviously a low ball teaser number to get supply started, because if they burn through those, they have an easier time asking for more. One indicator for this being the case is that Ukraine is, at least to public knowledge, operating about 16 batallion equivalents of tanks. That’s roughly 1000 hulls. If they just needed 300 tanks to throw out the Russians, this means that they are either horrendously attritted or are in fact teasing for first shipments. You might argue that western tanks have higher individual combat value than their russian counterparts, but large scale maneuver warfare is more about other factors than the individual vehicles used. There are multiple historical examples for that, we are not going into the details. What they do need though are numbers. And the lowball number of 300 vehicles is not going to cut it. Herein lies a major challenge of deciding which tank the west will be sending. Because we are not talking about 6 batallion equivalents but rather 15-20 until the war is over. That is a significant part of the western tank arsenal and convincing anybody to send those numbers is hard, even if we discount the cost of those tanks. Building supply chains for multiple tank models would be stupid, so it has to be one base model. That leaves us with either Abrams or Leopard2, because those are the only two families with sufficient numbers available. Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is. (2)
(cont)
Supply of existing hulls:
There are about 2000 Leo2 hulls of different versions and in different states of readiness available in NATO. So even if everybody is on board with sending parts of their fleet, even the teaser shipment would require every coalition member to send 15% of their hulls and those would have to be in working order. Given that military material usually has availability of 70-80% and some of the hulls are in storage, that would mean a significant reduction in operational hulls available to the operators. We are talking about 20-25% capability reduction. That is a huge number. Some members are operating small fleets. For them, sending that many hulls is not viable. Portugal for example operates 37 Leo2s, sending any significant number of tanks is impossible for them without seriously degrading their tank force. That does not only apply to operational capabilities, but also to training new tankers.
This complicates the issue further, because it means less countries will have to share the burden, degrading their own capabilities even more.
The next question would be replacement costs. The current market price for a 2A7 is €17mln. For the smaller partners, that’s a lot of money. Replacing company equivalents will come with a pricetag around €220mln give or take. As there are basically no legacy hulls available anymore, replacement will be financially impossible for countries with small budget. Even if large scale production reduces that price by 25-30%, it’s still a hefty price tag. Who is going to pay the bill? It’s not the US, because they will not pay for european tanks.
So it’s either the EU or the strong economies therein.
(3)
(cont)
Production:
Replacement is not available in the next 4 years, because production lines are booked. Current output is at about a hull per week or 50/year. Let’s assume we want to replace the sent hulls in reasonable time, say 4 years. Let’s further assume that we just want to replace 2/3 of the hulls because some are being phased out. That leaves is with 50 additional hulls/ year, or a production increase by 100%. And that would just be for the teaser. If we consider realistic demand, we will need output increased by 200%, even when stretch the timeline substantially.
There are neither the factories, nor the machines, in most cases even the machines to build those machines or qualified workers available for this project. Just the ramp up time would amount to at least 18 months.
This involves several hundred companies producing components for the tank. It’s a highly complicated industrial problem and it’s not solvable by just demanding more output.
Training crews and sustaining the force are another can of worms I am not going to open because it would require another 3-4 posts.
This alone should make it rather obvious that shittalking anybody makes zero sense because the problem cannot be solved by any one nation or even just a small group of nations. It requires a broad alliance of countries, big effort and a lot of money.
Thank you for stealing my time.
Tldr; you Black folk are moronic children, go back to your shitholes and stop talking about things you do not have any idea of. Frick you, post guns.
(4)
I live by the kmw factory - they work single shift right now.
The factory literally closes for the night
So don't tell me they could not do 3 shifts on rotation - you are either fsb or brown.
Also, frick Olaf.
t. Kraut
Where would you get the qualified workers for that you brainlet?
>Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is.
There's barely any active production for Leos either. Plus from a shekel perspective if European nations suddenly give away 300-600 leopards that'll leave a big vacuum the Germs are unable to fill. Which means either the US will sweep in with Abrams or the Koreans are going to make a killing. The US indirectly pressuring Germany to send tanks while keeping their surplus Abrams around to corner that new potential market is a power play. At the end this whole thing is about money
The US cannot supply sufficient hulls either because they would need to be upgraded to newer standards. Also, all the Leopard operators would prefer the L/55 gun, as they don’t use DU ammo.
Korean lines are booked, they can’t just shit out additional 300-1000 hills in a 5 year timeframe. It’s the same problem with production.
No, they haven’t. They are willing to grind it out and at current casualty rates, industrial output is the bottleneck rather than able bodies. It’s just now the war starts getting expensive. Tanks and planes plus support infrastructure are where the big bucks go. Each batallion equivalent of Leo2 plus support vehicles comes in at roughly a bln plus spares, ammo and training the crews.
To add: the US has major military commitments around the globe. The war in Ukraine should have made it obvious that you need sufficient reserves of material for that kind of warfare. Because not every war is GW1 with a major overmatch in C4ISR which is the true reason the coalition gumbastomped Iraq.
The Europeans are going to have to supply the hulls and pay for replacement. Part of the deal will be that it’s european vehicles only. Hope you bought Rheinmetall shares 12 months ago.
This war is a pointless waste of time and resources. Russians will take what they want regardless. NATO should’ve never have never expanded East.
And don’t give me this
>muh responsibility
>we gotta save le people
bullshit.
Everybody knows it’s about economic interests of the elites, not some stupid ideology.
People are dying so that richgays can get richer. Fricking great.
This war is neither pointless nor are the Russians going to take anything. It might take 3 years and medium to high three digit billions, but Russia will be militarily defeated. It’s a matter of economy and industrial capacity. Russia cannot win a war of attrition against the west, period. Given the resource intensity of modern conventional warfare, they will run out of material before Ukraine runs out of people, given the west keeps supplying Ukraine. The only real threat is monkey man flipping the board in the end, but everybody is trying to convince the people around him that he is indeed the problem and that it’s not about destroying Russia.
Which is why any type of Neo-Versailles demands would be the biggest political blunder of the 21st century. Even though it would be very much desirable from a strategic standpoint to remove the Russians from eastern Prussia, doing it would likely be a mistake as it would fuel revanchism even more than just beating them in war. The problem is that as casualties mount and large parts of Ukraine get turned into the dark side of the moon, war aims have to escalate to justify to losses.
It is a pointless waste of money and time.
No ideology is worth it.
The Ukraine is already lost. Best thing the west can do right now is to fortify Poland/Romania/Baltics as much as possible and hold the line there.
The whole Ukraine aid shit is happening only because the likes of Poland and others are seething about their failed economic/territorial expansion eastward which they seemingly hoped for after the end of the Cold War.
I don’t think that the west should cater to those morons, their delusional ambitions and unrealistic plans.
Like, seriously if you listen to what some Eastern European members say you can hear this idiotic notion that
>victory is at hand!!! We just have to push harder!!!
This only gets more men killed and for what? So that poles have their own satellite states like Belarus and Ukraine and can sell their apples and beer in those countries?
Give me a break.
subtle.
didnt read touch grass
>Russia will likely not stop in Ukraine
no, they probably will.
>On the other hand the west has to acknowledge that Russia will likely not stop in Ukraine,
It's not exactly a choice for Russia, they have no ability to go any further westward even if they win.
>Understandably, the US with their large reserves but basically no new hill production don’t want to throw their reserves into the blender, so Leo2 it is.
The US hasn't stopped Abrams production completely and can gear up for more anytime.
Pic related. Just be rich.
>As there are basically no legacy hulls available anymore,
There are still shittons of 2A4s, anon.
>This alone should make it rather obvious that shittalking anybody makes zero sense because the problem cannot be solved by any one nation or even just a small group of nations. It requires a broad alliance of countries, big effort and a lot of money.
>It requires a broad alliance of countries, big effort and a lot of money.
I feel like I heard that before.
Where are the hulls supposed to come from? Who has how many spare 2A4s and is willing to give them to Ukraine?
Name sources for 300 2A4s that are operational and can actually be speed by their operators.
Do you think countries are going to pull 50% of their active fleet to burn the tanks in the steppes?
Krautshits are desperately trying to prevent the krautshit being exposed as the junk shit it is when it gets dominated by Russian chadware and goes irreparably kaputt after 2km.
*de-fund gm*
SITUATION: UKRAINE GETTING SOME FAT BBC (BIG BRITISH CHALLENGERS)
OLAF IS A CVCKOLD
THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE ANGLO GANG
>12
Yawn and/or chuckle (malicious).
Could we not send them huge numbers of modernized surplus M60's? Slap some ERA and gun stabilization and fire control systems on them and voilà! The 105mm with modern ammo is more than adequate to deal with surplus Russian tanks and the diesel requires far less fuel than the turbine on the M1.
Just send abrams and more fuel, since when has a lack of fuel ever been an issue for America overseas?
Isn't it weird how Germany is all for gibs when it comes to Africans and Arabs but now when whites are defending themselves suddenly we have a problem with supporting them.