NGSW lawsuit

True Velocity is suing Sig, claiming that Sig conducted corporate espionage to obtain design data used to compete in the NGSW program. They claim that Sig stole their Short Recoil Impulse Averaging tech, among other things. Is there any realistic hope of assessing the technical merits of the case from the peanut gallery?

https://defensenews.com/land/2024/04/17/true-velocity-sues-sig-sauer-alleging-stolen-trade-secrets/

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Also, recent NGSW pics

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Also, recent NGSW pics

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous
        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          The source quality is 240415-A-IG696-5297.jpg going by the stripes.com file but I don't have it.

          Lots of good reference photos in this flickr album. Much better than has been published previously. Posting the interesting ones, resized for PrepHoleg. 13 pics.
          https://flickr.com/photos/101stabdivaa/albums/72177720316259349

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Wtf the army is doing PRS now?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Metal mag
      Booo. How are we supposed to see how many bullets are left in the magazine now?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Feel it with your heart.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      QRD on Short Recoil Impulse Averaging tech? I see the MGs barrel reciprocates but is there some special fine tuning to it?

      Atleast this one isn’t bracing the rifle on the can.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        It's just a conventional gas-operated action, with a spring behind it. Provided the core action is reliable, it shouldn't be sensitive or need fine tuning.

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >stole their short recoil impulse averaging tech
    >didnt steal their plastic shit ammo
    Kek even the Siggers knew it was shit

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      more like sBlack folk are lazy and didnt wanna actually innovate

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        the winner is the lowest bidder.
        that's the sole reason why SIG won the contract, they took whatever tooling was making the MCX and called it a night, meanwhile all the others were creating shit from scratch, doesn't help that SIG also make weapon parts in india so that lower the cost too.

        >Short Recoil Impulse Averaging tech,
        homie its just a short stroke

        depend if the design is different or not, also if they patented it they can easily claim it as their own instead of public domain stuff, it's also possible they are doing patent trolling in that case there's a huge chance SIG will have to pay up to be left alone

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          If they were actually bidding as a competitor, it isn’t “patent trolling”, it’s legitimate enforcement of their Ip

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >You WILL pay 24.99 for 20 rounds of TV 5.56
        >You WILL Get 200 FPS deviations on rounds
        >You WILL get a an inch of deviation on each round
        Very impressive innovative thanks

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          All of that is pretty irrelevant to a grunt issued version.
          >$24.99
          Not when you've scaled up to pump out millions of them.
          >200fps
          Who cares (cont)
          >1 inch
          Literally nobody is even close to noticing that when under fire.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Every innovation they claimed to makewas actually a lie
            >Who cares?
            ok moron

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >lighter
              >lower materials cost
              >higher pressure
              Everything else isn't related in any way to innovation, it's just production issues. No shit they're not going to refit an ammo plant entirely on spec.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Textrons CT was lighter and higher pressure than TVs polymer
                >lower materials cost
                There is no evidence for this for all we know the TV polymer is actually a carbon fiber reinforced polymer

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Fiber reinforced plastics are very cheap and ubiquous

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >for all we know the TV polymer is actually a carbon fiber reinforced polymer
                I seem to recall reading that it's glass fiber filled PEEK.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >for all we know the TV polymer is actually a carbon fiber reinforced polymer
                I seem to recall reading that it's glass fiber filled PEEK.

                I know it used tungsten and other metallic powder, from some old patents.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >tungsten
                Jesus, no wonder it's 150 cpr for a lump of plastic and lead.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Not when you've scaled up to pump out millions of them.

            what plastics are they made of?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >claiming that steel/brass hybrid cases are superior in cost compared to injection molded plastic cases
          Peak moronation

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Peak moronation

            That would be claiming that re-tooling over 100 years of industry is cheaper than not just the plastic ammo but the decades of microplastic poisoning lawsuits that would also follow.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Look around you. It's a plastic world b***h. "Retooling the industry"? What a fricking joke when you are comparing shit made from fricking brass to PLASTIC you are a fricking moron

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          The .308 is far more consistent than the 5.56 in my experience and accuracy has been perfectly serviceable. Nothing crazy, it isn't anything close to my nicer match ammo, about on par with my IWI new production or Austrian surplus. The weight savings is actually really impressive on .308 and I'd like to see the ammo get better with time.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            will tv ammo run through old Brs? or will they just rip apart the casings

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              TV says you can run their .308 and .223 ammmo just like anything else in those calibers you buy off the shelf.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Yes but you can carry twice as much TV ammo given how light it is

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >more like sBlack folk are lazy and didnt wanna actually innovate

        And yet SIG came out with the most innovated pistol in a decade (P365)

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          So innovative it even fires by itself!

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >So innovative it even fires by itself!
            ITP: LIES

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The claim is that they poached a GD engineer that worked on the LMMG and presumably had an NDA. After they grabbed him they used his knowledge against the terms of the NDA to create the SLMAG

      > In January 2014, Sig hired a “key GD-OTS engineer,” David Steimke, who had worked at GD for 19 years and served as the senior principal design engineer at the company’s facility in Vermont. “During that time, Mr. Steimke was an engineer on nearly every belt-fed machine gun design at GD-OTS,” the complaint states. He was also the original designer on the LMMG project.

      Nothing was stolen as in 'data breach', and nothing from TV themselves, just from GD of which all the belt-fed data and rights TV now owns legitimately.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        > The court document also claims that in addition to knowing Sig had hired former GD-OTS employees, True Velocity also discovered last year that Sig had “misappropriated confidential GD-OTS information, including proprietary design drawing files as well as critical proprietary data in the LMMG Technical Data and Marketing Materials.”

        Oop, looks like they DID steal data, this is probably what really prompted the lawsuit. Fun!

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          wtf did we enter the good timeline by accident?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Yes yes well done True Velocity, well done. However

          This will not get your firearm adopted as the M7

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            HK's rifle won the trials to replace the G36 because their competitor violated HK's patents. This is no different, except all the israelites fled Germany instead

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Better call Saul

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >David Steimke, who had worked at GD for 19 years and served as the senior principal design engineer at the company’s facility in Vermont. “During that time, Mr. Steimke was an engineer on nearly every belt-fed machine gun design at GD-OTS,” the complaint states. He was also the original designer on the LMMG project.

        That's the one?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Yup, and I have to feel this video with garand thumb is targeted/timed with their recent lawsuit filling.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I hope this finally makes SIG crash and burn
            The M9 replacement was a fricking disgrace and it doesn't seem like the new sig rifle is any different.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >The M9 replacement was a fricking disgrace
              Honestly, it was the best choice. Sig sold the frickers to the Army for $250 apiece, which is less than it would cost to maintain their M9s. The actual capability of handguns is irrelevant, they're more of a symbol of office than actual combat weapon.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Sig learned their lesson from the M9/P226 debacle.

                >tldr: Reason P226 lost to Beretta 92 was Beretta got insider info about Sig's bid and underbid them at the last second. 226 was objectively better pistol but the 92 was sold so cheaply it was a no-brainer.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Did Beretta even change their pricing at all? Their cost estimate for spare parts was a hair lower than Sig's. Meanwhile Sig is pricing their gun itself for pennies.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >The actual capability of handguns is irrelevant, they're more of a symbol of office than actual combat weapon.
                Hi-Point missed their chance to supply C-9s to every branch.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Sure, why not? It's barely cheaper than the M17 though.

                True, but why buy a liability of a gun if it's just to be worn on a hip? Old Berettas would fulfill that role just fine if performance didn't matter at all. How much money did it cost to even run the MHS compared to the poss8ble savings per gun?

                Old Berettas were becoming a liability, they still get fired in practice and the frames and slides have lifespans.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >barely cheaper than the M17
                What price does sig sell them on the civilian market? Now what about hipoint?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                True, but why buy a liability of a gun if it's just to be worn on a hip? Old Berettas would fulfill that role just fine if performance didn't matter at all. How much money did it cost to even run the MHS compared to the poss8ble savings per gun?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >True, but why buy a liability of a gun
                What about it is a liability
                >muh drop safety
                was never a problem on the military guns. They are not the same as a p320.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Poor reliability with ball ammo, the most common of rounds. Somehow that got glossed over and the judges swept it under the rug. Neither the P226 or 92 ever stooped so low so this is more than brand loyalty

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                They're unlikely to actually be used by anyone but MPs, who get hollow points.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                That doesn't make it any better, to know that your gun can't eat nigh everything it's fed. I don't like Glocks but even they did better than the P320 in that measure. Talk about picky

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >The M9 replacement was a fricking disgrace
              Reminder that those testing the guns preferred the Sig and everyone cited glock's lazy ass safety as a problem. Glocks response was to whine that the requirement for a manual safety was stupid. Meanwhile those morons will design an entire operating mechanism and completely change the entire gun just for a single European police contract. They deserved to lose.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >I hope this finally makes SIG crash and burn

              Your Black person-tier glock will always be the poor mans choice

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >that direct comparison with the sig recoil
            brutal

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >brutal
              not really? you'd never be walking and shooting what is essentially a heavy machinegun in terms of role on the battlefield.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                the implication isn't that you'll be walking while shooting, simply it directly demonstrates the recoil differences between the two rifles, and recoil IS an important factor in how a gun handles and less recoil is almost always better.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >two rifles

                These are not rifles you absolute moron; they're fricking crew served machine guns. The only place you will be while shooting them 99% of the time is on your stomach in the prone, or mounted on an armored vehicle (just like the M2).

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Where, again, less recoil is still better

                Are you moronic or just pretending for the (you)s?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I don't think the recoil matters on an emplaced machinegun anon. Like it's super neat that it has less recoil and all, but the thing holding me back from shoulder firing a ma deuce isn't exactly the recoil.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Right, it's the recoil and weight, both of which are vastly improved with the RM338.

                You really must be moronic, I'm sorry for making fun of you anon.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Are you moronic? Yes you are.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Are you moronic? Yes you are.

                When, have you ever, walked and shot a heavy machine gun? lmao.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                ...you're moronic for not understanding that less recoil is ALWAYS better, it doesn't matter if you're not going to be walking and shooting with it, even if you're laying down with a bipod, less recoil IS ALWAYS better. Even vehicle-mounted, less recoil is going to be better.
                Not to mention lighter weight on top of it. Which again, assuming you're not sacrificing anything, is ALWAYS better.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Someone post the clip of the miculek girl

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >early Sig CEO life history

        Justice be done.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >poach longtime senior designer to spill the beans on tech
        Yea, this is obvious IP theft, and it happens all the time in corporate America now.
        Sig did this knowing full well they were going to steal and implement the designer's IP which is technically/legally IP of GD because of their work contracts. Sig knows they will get a monetary slap on the wrist, pay a settlement years later that they will fight tooth and nail in court, and eventually they will more or less get away with it because they're part of the MIC insider club now.

        This is why bureaucracy ruins everything. Quality doesn't get selected. Laws don't get upheld. It's just "who you know" that is getting shit barely passing the grade now. This is why Sig is hated on, they joined in on the corruption.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Siggers also think American made forged parts are shit too, I wouldn't use them as a meter of quality.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Siggers also think American made forged parts are shit too
        And they are, but Indian made aren't any good either

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Is there any realistic hope of assessing the technical merits of the case from the peanut gallery?
    Frick no this board is next to useless

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      arf ain't really better so far. Still need to get hands on the actual vermont filing.
      https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/True-Velocity-sues-Sig-Sauer--alleging-stolen-trade-secrets/5-2720108/

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Still need to get hands on the actual vermont filing.
        Lawgays, how do dis? Vermont judicial records platform is not giving me anything. Can you lexisnexis my shit up in here dawg?

        https://www.vermontjudiciary.org/about-vermont-judiciary/public-portal

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          alexis, gibsmedat sexis
          (bump for legal document / vermont knowers)

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Vermonts judicial site is broken. It won't return any information related to the case of True Velocity Ammunitions, Llc Et Al V. Sig Sauer, Inc.
          24-cv-01360

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Metadata but not document. I'm not logged in.
            https://portal.vtcourts.gov/app/RegisterOfActions/#/B4416FDEA922C0013A0B8C76B2F13A61FF3D8D6CE067CB8DCF27A6B7D708DE7A

            This exists and has a download docket button, but it requires signup with CC.
            https://trellis.law/case/50007/24-cv-01360/true-velocity-ammunitions-llc-et-al-v-sig-sauer-inc

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Corporate espionage is nothing new between companies. The hard part is that you need to prove it.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah proving it is the b***h, if TV actually has some real proof they could get a settlement that MIGHT amount to a % of past and future earnings of the M7/M250 sales to the military.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Short Recoil Impulse Averaging tech,
    homie its just a short stroke

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Nah it's not. It's more like if you took a normal gun and put it inside a receiver with a spring behind it.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >doesn't know what recoil operation is
      just leave Black person.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Sig's gun isn't recoil operated.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Same with the HK Black folk stealing the german contract due to them claiming they patented fricking weeping holes of the buffertube.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        The HK maritime holes arent the same ones that are drilled in the stock position holes.

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Sounds like legalism at best.
    The mechanisms on those guns are not all that novel. Just that the barrel and bolt are a recoiling unit together inside the receiver.

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Stuff from arf

    https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/True-Velocity-sues-Sig-Sauer--alleging-stolen-trade-secrets/5-2720108/#i108762095

    >Here's a 2012 patent from General Dynamics on it, and a writeup on a MMG they were offering up at the time, which actually looks a lot like SIG's current offering
    >https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130047833A1/en
    >https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/u-s-a-machineguns/lwmmg-eng/

    https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/True-Velocity-sues-Sig-Sauer--alleging-stolen-trade-secrets/5-2720108/#i108763964

    >So, reading that whole article, then looking at the 2012 GD LMMG, then Sig's 2017 MG 338, then at their XM250, I would say that True Velocity has a pretty solid case for IP theft here.
    >GD's 2016 writeup on the system is pretty neat
    >https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2016/armament/18356_Gudmundsen.pdf
    >1800+m effective range in an m240 size, felt recoil, and weight footprint is pretty compelling if it's not all marketing fluff.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >>Here's a 2012 patent from General Dynamics on it, and a writeup on a MMG they were offering up at the time, which actually looks a lot like SIG's current offering
      This actually confused me a few years back when I was looking through patents for the different NGSW entries. There was a lot of talk about the GD/Beretta rifle using that recoil reduction technology but if you looked up the patents GD held for it the drawings looked almost exactly like the Sig LMG.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >M240 BCG in current year
      Wtf are they doing over at GD? Do they have some sort of Browning cult going on or what?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        MAGs just keep on trucking, it's doing something right.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >one of the claimed advantages the impulse averaging is not needing a long receiver for good recoil like with constant recoil systems for example
          >pair it with the longest possible automatic weapon action
          What did they mean by this???
          They could have done away with this complicated mechanism and easily fitted a rotating bolt in that huge receiver with a simple constant recoil action.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >M240 length 49.7 inches
            >M250 length (suppressed) 41.8 inches
            ??

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Yes? The receiver is the same length. It is a long receiver in both guns. Had they replaced the long MAG bolt with a short compact rotating bolt system they could have used a constant recoil system with a long bolt travel. Resulting in a much simpler system.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Can that system handle 338? XM 250 is supposed to be an MG 338 after all
                Also one weighs 27 pounds and the other weights 13 pounds so I'm sure Sigs version has significant weight advantage

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                It's all just a matter of scaling.
                Turn bolt locking systems are a plenty and probably the strongest automatic action we humans have developed so far.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Can that system handle 338? XM 250 is supposed to be an MG 338 after all
                Also one weighs 27 pounds and the other weights 13 pounds so I'm sure Sigs version has significant weight advantage

                The XM250 uses a rotating bolt.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Man why the frick do they have to make the bolt long as frick. There is absolutely no reason for the bolt to be longer than the cartridge.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Because 6.8 is a loaded Pissin HotTM and the bolt is whats taking all the force young zoomer

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                What the frick are you talking about moron? The locking lugs are on the barrel extension and on the first half an inch of the bolt. Jeesus I swear this board is filled with morons.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Exactly young zoomer, the lock lugs are being reinforced because they're a single cylinder extrusion thats been carved into

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Dude for real what the frick are you trying to say? For all intents and purposes the material behind the lugs has no effect on action strength. Have you ever seen AK bolts with their thin stem?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >5.45 pressure: 51,000
                >.50 BMG pressure: 54,000
                >.277 Sig pressure: 81,000
                Young man if you try copying the AK bolt in a Sig its going to explode

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                You fricking moron honestly. Force increases -> you make the locking lugs stronger.
                Material behind them doesn't fricking matter you moron
                >thinking .50 BMG requires a stronger action than .277 SIG
                JEESUS CHRIST JUST HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE???
                The Fury has 60 kN of bolt thrust while .50 BMG has 120 kN of bolt thrust, the higher pressure on the Fury requires ABSOLUTELY nothing special on the part of the bolt, just make it strong enough to resist that 60 kN and it works, nothing unconventional like with the casing or whatever the frick they're gonna do with those barrels.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Hes saying you are a fricking moron and a Black person macaco-tier monkey
                cant blame the man tho, hes right

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                https://i.imgur.com/KdnIF7F.png

                Exactly young zoomer, the lock lugs are being reinforced because they're a single cylinder extrusion thats been carved into

                Moron, the SIG uses a standard front locking lug system.
                Nothing behind the front locking lugs is pressure bearing. It isn't a screw breech or interrupted thread.

                https://i.imgur.com/T1meSC8.png

                >5.45 pressure: 51,000
                >.50 BMG pressure: 54,000
                >.277 Sig pressure: 81,000
                Young man if you try copying the AK bolt in a Sig its going to explode

                What the hell are you even talking about?
                Look at their shoulder rifle, being literally just a SIG Spear using a basically conventional AR bolt system.

                The level of pressure a rotating bolt mechanism can bear is arbitrary and can be engineered for regardless of anything behind the locking lugs and shoulder.
                What the bolt looks like outside of that, is irrelevant.
                Are you moronic for something?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >XM250/MG338
                >Posts XM7
                ?????

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Yes, genius. They shoot the same cartridge.
                Nothing about the XM250's bolt size is derived from the pressure of the 6.8 cartridge and a need to bulk up to handle it. Because only the locking lugs are bearing that pressure. The bolt could be pencil thin behind the locking lugs. This goes for any rifle at its most basic level.

                The reason to have a large bolt like that relates to function, like needing to be a certain size to reach different cam ways, needing a certain mass for cyclic reliability, etc.
                Nothing to do with pressure bearing.
                You could make an AK in that cartridge without any changes to the size of the bolt stem, so long as the locking lugs could take the pressure.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Its not the same bolt young man
                The XM 250 is a single piece cylinder with locking lugs cut into it, what you are saying that these three cylinders would be they exact same strength under vertical (horizontal in a guns case) compression which is obviously not true

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                When the locking surface is the same, it will be.
                Anything behind the locking shoulder plays no part in dealing with compression from firing.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                The force lines go from the cartridge head, to the bolt face, to the bolt lugs, to the barrel lugs, to the barrel trunnion. The rear of the bolt is not involved. You could take the barrel out, and seal the end with a tiny bolt head flush with the barrel extension, and it would still stay sealed.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                What the frick are you talking about your absolute moron?
                PARTS BEHIND THE LOCKING LUGS ARE NOT PRESSURE BEARING YOU OLD FRICK

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Bolt mass is good for reliability and running the feed system.
                It looks to use a fairly short cam-track so you need a good amount of force to actuate it reliably.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Bolt CARRIER mass is good for reliability, bolt mass is meh. Just put all your mass into the operating rod and you get high bolt carrier mass, short action length, and as a side benefit more forward mass which helps with recoil.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Bolt carrier mass is good for extraction, but carrier+bolt mass is good for controlling bolt velocity and forwards momentum.
                Bulking up the op rod would work, but would make the bottom of the receiver thicker.
                It also looks like they have some kind of clip in the top of the bolt head, possibly an anti-rotation device. If, so that sets a minimum size necessary to house it, that is already fairly large. So might as well lean into that, then.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                There's already not much room from the barrel extension lugs to the feed tray already, I can't see shortening it up much on that end without feeding issues.
                And the conventional top-cover setup pretty much requires the cam roller to be behind the feed tray, so you'd need an unorthodox design to shrink it from that end. Not that they couldn't have done so, if they wanted it bad enough.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Honestly people should just ditch the MG34 feed system already, the PKM system is much simpler and more compact I don't know why everyone keeps using the cam track mechanism.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                It is good at keeping the belt movement smooth. Because it splits the steps into two halves, based on the bolt going backwards and then forwards.
                That is why they used it back in the 30s. It doesn't jerk around the gun or the belt, compared to most other designs.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                You can achieve the exact same accelerations and velocities with a PKM style system.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                But you would need to add more parts to achieve two-stage feed, reducing simplicity and compactness. For example, you could operate the working end of an MG 42, using a PK-style bell crank, but then it would be no less complex than the MG 42.

                The overhead cam track's only big advantage that I can see, is that it's easy to manufacture by stamping. A stamped cam track acts like a C-beam.
                The PK bell crank would be stressed the wrong way if it was stamped. It has to be solid to be strong, and thus heavy. Since the PKM is lighter than Western equivalents, it's arguable that the overall Soviet approach is superior.

                Other arguable advantages of a 'flat' overhead feed system may be:
                - It's 'bigger' as seen from above, but smaller as seen from the rear, which is how most users will view it, most of the time.
                - The feed mechanism is immediately viewable and accessible if it gets dirty or clogged. The PK crank is wrapped around the action so you'd need to partially disassemble it if gets clogged up with crud. Since the PK action is highly reliable to begin with it's not clear if this matters.

                As with most things, there is likely not so much a good reason as to why it's done, as a lack of a good enough reason to stop doing it.
                The M60 was supposed to be an 'improved' MG 42, so now the overhead layout is the status quo for the US.

                It is good at keeping the belt movement smooth. Because it splits the steps into two halves, based on the bolt going backwards and then forwards.
                That is why they used it back in the 30s. It doesn't jerk around the gun or the belt, compared to most other designs.

                Btw that's the MG 42 not the MG 34, which was one-stage, as is the XM250 animation above.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Interestingly enough the M60 feed system was just a one stage system whereas the M240 and M249 both have two stage feeding systems.
                I think that the PKM system could very well be made out of stampings since most of the forces are in the direction of the belt and can therefore easily be made in line with the sheet metal surface.
                A two phase feed system seems like a smart idea and I don't know why everyone isn't using it.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                From examining the animation, I think the long bolt is needed to enable direct access to the bolt if it gets stuck. The barrel is fixed to the front of an 'inner receiver' tube, and so its weight supported by large/long sliding surfaces of some kind, which aren't shown explicitly. This 'buries' the breech 'deep' within a cylindrical bearing surface, where a short bolt would be inaccessible in battery, except by yanking on the bolt carrier. With a long bolt, if it gets jammed, you can get a wrench or handle onto the rear of the bolt, to force it to turn.

                Frankly, I don't like the design, but I don't feel like giving free engineering advice to SIG, not that they'd give a shit.

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Dont forget guys, Steyr went to war with Sig on FCGs and they lost bad lmao

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I don't know what the morons in this thread are expecting.
      SIG will win any lawsuit just on principle of having most of the military in their pocket.
      Shit, they offed that boeing whistleblower a month ago or whatever and all he did was shit talk their civilian airliners.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2015/01/21/u-s-loses-patent-suit-owes-ammo-maker-15m/

        > Liberty Ammunition also will receive royalties of 1.4 cents per round on that ammunition until the patent expires in 2027

        Yeah sorry dude we're not Russia

        Boeing guy was suicidal, his direct family said so. The "family friend" was some fame chaser who was friends with his mom. And if it was intended to shut up other whistleblowers, it clearly didn't work, since this guy is still singing at a congressional hearing:

        https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/04/17/boeing-whistleblower-detailed-alleged-physical-threats-from-bosses-after-raising-safety-concerns/?sh=447715eb2007

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          You are very bad at impersonation.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          you are moronic.
          don't conflate a 15 million dollar lawsuit over a shitty round with the US government over a multi billion dollar contract with one of the largest military industrial complex companies in the world. it is common knowledge that companies like SIG bribe the shit out of the higher ranking military members in order to win contracts.
          >Fat Leonard

          Secondly you dumb gorilla Black person, if you take any mainstream media articles word on anything than you are the dumbest gorilla Black person in existence. Did he kill himself? i don't know. But it sure is a coincidence that he did it after whistleblowing. I'm sure if i bothered to look in further detail your gay forbes article would be wienerslapped into non existence just like your mother gets wienerslapped by Black folk.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Why wouldn’t they kill him before he testified?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              He didn't testify, he was deposed. Similar thing, but it's before hearings. Simplest answer about why they didn't kill him earlier is, they didn't know how bad his deposition was going to be for them.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >one of the largest military industrial complex companies in the world
            >SIG
            Not even close, GD mogs the shit out of it, to say nothing of the top players like LockMart or Northrop.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Boeing guy was suicidal, his direct family said so
          First time?

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Goddamn, listen to the gobbledyasiatic they have the 101st guys spouting rn:

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      They sound like an IT start up, or used car salesmen. I have no idea why people are taught to speak like this, it's not impressive, it does not make them sound good.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I am genuinely disgusted by this. It's all social media style, and no substance.
      "Multi-[mumbled] reconnaissance focuses primarily on [pause] sensing, protecting and destroying the enemy, uhhh, wherever our friendlies need us".
      Sensing, protecting and destroying the enemy? Protecting the enemy? Really? These are their spokesmen?
      Obviously he meant something like 'sensing and destroying the enemy, and thereby protecting friendlies', but the sheer level of slogan-talk pumped into him has addled his brain.
      But hey here's some BEER COMMERCIAL MUSIC WOOOO.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      homie, this is how they are instructed to speak to the press

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        so what

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Is there any realistic hope of assessing the technical merits of the case from the peanut gallery?
    this dead parrot of a board is reddit and eglin afb territory.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Shut up you spiritual Black person. Go wank it to warhammer or whatever you do

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        EGLIN AFB REARS ITS homosexual HEAD.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          You have no right to call anyone a homosexual. I wouldn't even frick you with an airwoman's dick.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            yep, typical. eglin AFB gays.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              You are very bad at impersonation.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      EGLIN AFB REARS ITS homosexual HEAD.

      yep, typical. eglin AFB gays.

      >elgin AFB
      Why are you still upholding this meme? You gays started this because you saw some reddit analytics, which doesn't say much

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        because its true.

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
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    Anonymous
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    Anonymous

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      Anonymous

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    Anonymous
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    Anonymous
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    Anonymous
    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/VJe25TE.jpeg

      https://i.imgur.com/9DsEsAO.jpeg

      Reaching the part where I wish I had cut it down to 3 or 4. 10/13

      That's a massive gun

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >13 pounds
        Dont be a pussy

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        the M250 is 15.4lbs, compared to the M249 at ~17lbs+

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Its bulkier than it is heavy.
        There is a lot of empty space inside that receiver.

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
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    Anonymous
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    Anonymous
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    Anonymous
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    Anonymous
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    Anonymous
  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Reaching the part where I wish I had cut it down to 3 or 4. 10/13

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/fVBIlTL.jpeg

      https://i.imgur.com/UfaUPB0.jpeg

      https://i.imgur.com/9GlMEAv.jpeg

      >Also, recent NGSW pics

      so did they actually decide to ditch the forward assist? in past thread it was pointed out and it wasn't clear if they added it back after trials or actually removed it.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        The pictures shown off from the media day back in September 2023 are believed to be the final revision, and the pictures coming from the recent issuing in march shows the same gun without the forward assist.

        Previous fielding pictures from early 2023 and earlier all have the forward assist.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I believe you can lock the charging handle on the left side of the receiver in place and use it as a forward assist if necessary.

  25. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
  26. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    13/13
    c-c-c-combo breaker

  27. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Standard issue 6.8 rifle
    >Standard issue 6.8 LMG
    >Possible standard issue .338 MMG
    Oh my Fauci Arma 3 predicted all this!!!
    Only thing left we need to do is replace the thousands of Abrams with Merkavas

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Arma 3 uses a 6.5 grendel power level cartridge, though. The .338 MMG thing was something they added in after the contest for it had already begun.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Arma 3 uses a 6.5 grendel power level cartridge, though
        You mean a 6.8 SPC power level cartridge?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      We have known for a very long time that intermediate cartridges are terrible against body armor and that 6-7mm rounds are the ideal. It was only a matter of time before the military caught up and updated their shit like they always do

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >intermediate cartidges are bad against body armor
        >6.8 fuddmagnum needs tungsten to defeat level 4
        Wdhmbt?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The Arma rifle looks a whole lot more like the Textron entry, plus the US Army is less gay in game by virtue of using the LSAT/Kac Stoner lmg, and the Comanche.

  28. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >They claim that Sig stole their Short Recoil Impulse Averaging tech, among other things
    I heard GD engineer how made their .338 MG works for SIG now and he made XM250

  29. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >stole me short recoil tech
    But sigger ones dont have a recoil mechanism? They are fixed barrel right.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      xm250

  30. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Is this one of those threads where op self bumps it because he really wants attention?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      you tell me, OP

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I haven't been present since sending the flickr gallery

  31. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >the TV rifle was shorter overall despite having a longer barrel, which meant the ammo didn't need to be loaded as hot thus resulting in lessened recoil and longer barrel life
    >the TV rifle could switch from open bolt to closed bolt, making it an adequate machine gun and an adequate rifle
    >TV developed a drop in barrel that allowed all of our existing M249s and M60s to shoot their ammo in the new 6.5 caliber, offering IMMENSE cost savings not to mention the TV rifle itself could be used as a machine gun due to its open bolt ability
    >the TV rifle used polymer cased ammo which offered weight savings and shot completely cold, meaning no more eye injuries or hot brass down the shirt of the soldier next to you briefly taking him out of the fight, and lighter ammo meaning more could be carried

    The RM277 was the clear winner, what israelitery did Sig really engage in to falsely win this competition and leave us with an obviously inferior rifle with extreme recoil and TWO CHARGING HANDLES?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Army/SOF inherent HATE for anything that's not an AR and underbidding, that's really it.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >lessened recoil
      This part isn't true btw. They're both slinging the same bullet going at the same speed so the total recoil force is more or less the same.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Thats not true either, Sigs design has both the barrel and bolt carrier group recoiling backwards, the barrel moving absorbs some of the recoil and significantly slows down how fast the whole assembly is hitting the back of the receiver, reducing felt recoil
        This setup is they entire reason its possible for people to fire Barretts standing straight up and not fall on their ass

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Felt recoil is not the same thing as total recoil force. A feather could stop the recoil of a 120mm tank cannon if the force is spread over a month.

          https://i.imgur.com/evvkoIX.gif

          Completely different round at vastly different pressure. Similar bullet weight though. The bullpup could have a longer barrel and still make the minimum OAL requirement, the Shig had to have a 13" barrel to do it so they overpressured the round to shit. Every reviewer has complained of excessive recoil.

          Barrel length and all that is totally irrelevant when it comes to recoil.
          The Sig has a short bolt travel and a snappy bolt that is hitting the back of the receiver at high velocity each shot. Whereas the bullpup has a chassis system where the barrel and the whole action are spring loaded spreading out the recoil force over a longer time. The bullpup works with the same principle as the Sig machine gun and the earlier GD machine gun which is what this whole lawsuit is about.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Barrel length and all that is totally irrelevant when it comes to recoil.
            So you think an 8" .223 AR has the same recoil as a 22" .223 AR?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Given the same bolt velocity and bolt/buffer weight and same firearm overall weight and weight distribution? Yes, more or less.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Yes, more or less.
                moron alert.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                ESL

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Completely different round at vastly different pressure. Similar bullet weight though. The bullpup could have a longer barrel and still make the minimum OAL requirement, the Shig had to have a 13" barrel to do it so they overpressured the round to shit. Every reviewer has complained of excessive recoil.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >posts an 8" barrel version and claiming it's the same thing as the 13" XM7 (not including the suppressor length).

          That webM is showing a gun almost half the overall barrel length of the actual XM7.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Completely different round at vastly different pressure.

          >posts gif of complete twig-let on another version of the rifle with a 6 inch barle

          >don't kill himself out of shame

          why are you a homosexual?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >every reviewer has complained of excessive recoil
          Insane cope that not a single person except fudd boomers who have not shot the gun have complained about
          Anyway heres 5' 110 pound Lena Miculek shooting the full power brass steel hybrid

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >all weight forward with 2lb optics and can
            Yeah

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >2lbs optics and can
              Yeah thats standard equipment every single XM 7 comes with

              [...]
              not to mention the daughter of a big comp shooter and herself is a comp shooter

              >All her weight is foward
              >She's actually a competitive shooter
              The primary determination on if you can handle recoil or not is 1) Your weight 2) Your strength
              The average 160 pound infantryman with 50 pounds of gear on is significantly heavier and stronger than Lena Miculek

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >The primary determination on if you can handle recoil or not is 1) Your weight 2) Your strength
                It's skill. According to Soviet tests top 25% (conscript) shooters have 3 times less size of automatic fire groups than bottom performing 25% shooters.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >all weight forward with 2lb optics and can
            Yeah

            not to mention the daughter of a big comp shooter and herself is a comp shooter

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >here's a pro shooter shooting it so the recoil is fine stop complaining
            Lmao

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Would love your explanation on how Lena Miculek can defeat Newtons 3rd law through shooting experience

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Turns out with proper technique, which with heavily recoiling weapons takes a long time to learn, high recoil can be managed well.
                Same story with the m14, all the armys test shooters never had an issue with the m14 in full auto. Not the case with your average infantryman.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Because it has a machine gun trigger

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >what israelitery did Sig really engage in to falsely win this competition
      They submitted a belt-fed for their LMG design

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Sigger cope. The trial called for an "automatic rifle" with the specific stipulation of optional belt feed.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Textron wanted to submit a belt fed for the assault rifle but they were told it had to be a box magazine.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Textron wanted to submit a belt fed for the assault rifle but they were told it had to be a box magazine.
          Source?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/18/interview-kori-phillips-program-officer-lsat-ctsas-part-2-ammunition-technical-discussion-contd/
            It's an interview with the woman who was in charge of the LSAT program, by the time of the NGSW competition she was the only person left with the Army side of the program and was basically just in charge of the Textron team.
            >From a personal standpoint, I fought long and hard to make it a belt-fed carbine, the links weigh practically nothing, and it helps simplify things, but the users were dead set against that.
            >It's always a problem when you’re introducing something new, it’s hard to get rid of the baggage from the previous systems. So maybe when someone comes along who’s maybe not as tied to that baggage, they will say “you know, maybe we could do a belt-fed rifle, there’s no reason that we had to have magazines.”

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              The LSAT is a different program from the NGSW

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                It's the same group from Textron behind both.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      literally nobody likes bullpups

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        And the Sig Spear is the price you pay for your folly

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          No it's not, since I'll never own one. I could give less of a frick what gun someone else is told to use.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          If you are American your tax dollars pay for it. Literally paying for this mistake. Good thing I'm not from the US.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You're proud of living in some irrelevant third-world country? Sick comeback I guess

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Textron CT ammo has a less spiky pressure curve, so it's able to get high performance from a shorter barrel with lower peak pressure
      >The rising chamber design isolates the chamber from the heat of the barrel, meaning that even the automatic rifle can fire indefinitely from a closed bolt without risk of cook-off, increasing accuracy
      >Textron developed a 6.5mm GPMG with the same capability as the M240 but which would weigh less than the M249 with the same ammo allotment
      >The Textron CT ammo weighs even less than the TV polymer ammo, is smaller and perfectly cylindrical for improved logistics, and is more resilient since there's no bullet sticking out to tweak on the plastic neck of the cartridge if it gets bumped

      You just want a spacegat memepup, the GD entry wasn't best at anything.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >bro... lets just give a rifle all the problems of a revolver

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >lets just give a rifle all the problems of a revolver
          You mean the chamber gap? The end of the case splits open when the bullet goes through it and seals the gap.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            cylinder gap and headspace, forcing cone alignment, chamber alignment

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              All of that is solved by the cartridge design. It opens, seals, and guides the bullet into the barrel very consistently. Revolvers would probably be much better off of they were shotguns, although then you might want them to be gas operated.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                You have no data to support that claim.
                Whether the cartridge did or didn't, the design was inherently bad for making those potential problems in the first place.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >You have no data to support that claim.
                I have an interview with the lead developer supporting it:

                https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/18/interview-kori-phillips-program-officer-lsat-ctsas-part-2-ammunition-technical-discussion-contd/
                It's an interview with the woman who was in charge of the LSAT program, by the time of the NGSW competition she was the only person left with the Army side of the program and was basically just in charge of the Textron team.
                >From a personal standpoint, I fought long and hard to make it a belt-fed carbine, the links weigh practically nothing, and it helps simplify things, but the users were dead set against that.
                >It's always a problem when you’re introducing something new, it’s hard to get rid of the baggage from the previous systems. So maybe when someone comes along who’s maybe not as tied to that baggage, they will say “you know, maybe we could do a belt-fed rifle, there’s no reason that we had to have magazines.”

                >the design was inherently bad for making those potential problems in the first place.
                It didn't have those problems though, since they were solved by the same case design that made it possible in the first place. They exist only in your imagination.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >They exist only in your imagination.
                Hello.
                Teexyron shitty "nobody asked for these problems" design lost.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Okay, let's see your evidence that it had anything to do with chamber gap. In fact, let's see your evidence that it had anything to do with anything other than corruption.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Okay, let's see YOUR evidence that Textron solved chamber gap problems. I'll wait.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Read the interview with the LSAT boss, she mentions it.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                You can see with your own eyes that the plastic case presses against the back face of the barrel therefore sealing it.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Read the interview with the LSAT boss, she mentions it.

                Yeah the made round that *supposedly* solves problems and then that round weapons systems spectacularly failed trials. RFLMAO.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Have you seen the rifle (or the pistol from the same company) that won? it's pure corruption.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >mostly generic piston AR
                Yeah, its what I expected to win.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Have you seen the rifle (or the pistol from the same company) that won? it's pure corruption.

                Probably is.

                Regarding Textron, don't know if they had problems with the CT ammo, could also be the rifle/mg, but for some reason their bid was dropped quietly, and only SIG and True Velocity remained. It was the sales guy from LMT that dropped the ball by mistake during one of their Q&A on their youtube channel, said that Textron (which they partnered with, LMT bringing their suppressor) wasn't part of the NGSW trial anymore, video was quickly deleted.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >don't know if they had problems, but for some reason their bid was dropped quietly
                GD dropped out right about the same time. TV was just GD's ammo development partner prior to that, they demanded all the rights to the gun and kept trying to force it through. Makes you wonder what GD and Textron knew. Either they heard that the contract was going to Sig regardless of performance, or they caught wind of Sig's bid and realized it was like the MHS where Sig bid half of what everyone else needed to make a profit.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Wikipedia: MHS
                >"Once down-selected, the two finalists are supposed to undergo a second phase of Production Verification Testing (PVT) which includes a 22,500-round endurance test as well as environmental testing. However, the XM17 contract was awarded to SIG Sauer before these tests could be carried out. Explicit reasoning for this is unknown, although it has been attributed in-part to SIG Sauer aggressively underbidding their cost per handgun."
                >"In January 2018, the Director, Operational Test and Evaluation published its report on the testing of the XM17, which highlighted some deficiencies. Notably, the weapon initially performed poorly in drop tests, causing a discharge when dropped; this issue was fixed by replacing the trigger group with components lighter in weight. Additionally, the weapon performed poorly with ball ammunition, causing several double ejections (ejecting a live round simultaneously with the spent casing of the round just fired) and stoppages. "

                Just wow. SIG must have done their own tests during development. That means they would have known their design wouldn't pass reliability testing.
                That phase mysteriously disappears, and then SIG has all the time in the world to polish their turd.
                Taxpayer dollars hard at work.

                >Are you moronic? Yes you are.

                When, have you ever, walked and shot a heavy machine gun? lmao.

                Dude it weighs 11 kg. That's less than an M240B. It's not a 'heavy' machine gun, it's a long-range medium machine gun. Its primary role is bipod use. Ma Deuce isn't going anywhere.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >.338 NM
                >MMG
                No.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                The RM338 is a rebranded GD LWMMG. It even still has General Dynamics written on the side in the video.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Medium_Machine_Gun

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                .338 Norma Magnum has comparable downrange energy to 12.7x108. It's not a replacement for .50 BMG by any means, but it's closer to a kord than a PKM.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Is that what's happening here? You thought you were looking at an American Kord? Just admit you weren't thinking.
                The RM338 is lighter than an M240B, lighter than an MG 3, and comparable in weight to an M60. As the LWMMG, it was specifically designed to enable infantry to 'overmatch' 7.62x54R in environments like Afghanistan.
                The Kord is 25.5 kg, nearly 2 metres long, and is the official vehicle-mounted / coax HMG of the Russian Federation.
                The empty case alone of 12.7x108mm is 67 g.
                The entire .338 NM cartridge is 45 g.

                No-one can take you seriously if you say that the RM338 is a 'heavy' machine gun and group it with the Kord, over the M60, MG 3, M240B, and PKM.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                An M249 with 40kg of ballast bolted to it isn't an HMG. The classification is about the power of the cartridge, not the mass of the weapon. 12.7x108 has almost double the power of .338 NM at the muzzle, but a less aerodynamic bullet that doesnt maintain energy as well over long distances. .338 NM has double the energy of .308 or 54r at the muzzle, AND it maintains it much better downrange. The intent was to bridge the gap between an MMG and HMG, and that's what it does. It's still not comparable to .50 BMG, which has half again as much power as 12.7x108 and almost 3x as much as .338 NM, but it's way more powerful than any existing MMG.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                The development program literally had MMG in the name. LWMMG. Not LWHMG. That was the intent. You are grasping at straws to save face.
                Also, stop mixing up energy and power, they're not the same thing.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >.50 BMG, which has half again as much power as 12.7x108
                Your figures are wrong.
                - .338 NM, 24" bbl, 6 585 J
                - 12.7x108mm, 1000mm bbl, 16 240 to 19 621 J
                - .50 BMG, 1100mm bbl, 17 952 to 20 195 J

                'Half again' would put .50 BMG at 24 360 to 29 432 J. Absurd.

                Tulammo 12.7x108mm civilian load:
                https://tulammo.ru/en/production/vintovochnye-patrony/patron-12-7kh108/
                Tulammo .50 BMG civilian load:
                https://tulammo.ru/en/production/vintovochnye-patrony/patron-12-7kh99/

                For the same bullet, the 12.7x108mm ballistics are actually better than .50 BMG.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >unironically using specs for dogshit ammo

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Have you seen the rifle (or the pistol from the same company) that won?
                Yeah the one that doesn't cosplay revolver. Final stage if competion was GD vs SIG both ain't revolvers bastards.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        That thing should've been dropped based on its excessive bulk alone. You can't come to me and tell me that giant thing is a rifle, I'd send them back and tell them to make it smaller. Wtf is going on internally that it needs that much fricking space?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          that

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >An objectively more reliable feeding system
            How horrifying

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >more reliable feeding system

              Kek, imagine believing this.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I mean to me it just kinda looks like the feed system on an M240 turned on its side

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >I mean to me it just kinda looks like the feed system on an M240 turned on its side

                maybe if you were dropped on your head.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >sliding tray that uses a curved track to move back and forth and move rounds out of the way

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >We made picrel impossible
                >It is now less reliable
                Very interesting

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            How do you clear the chamber? How do you verify that it's clear? What happens when you pull the charging handle back and stick a finger in there to push the cartridge out, and your hand slips and the gun tries to chamber your pinky?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >remove magazine
              >rack twice

              >stick pinky in lowered chamber thing
              >no cartridge
              >gun doesn't have enough mechanical advantage to harm your pinky
              >just pull back on the charging handle and you're fine

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                magazine
                >>rack twice
                How would that clear it? The previous cartridge gets pushed out by the one behind it.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                it can't use the last cartridge to eject the prior one, otherwise it couldn't eject the last round in a magazine.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                You wouldn't need to, just put in a new magazine and drop the bolt. It's only a problem with clearing.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              It has a very simple clearing rod similar to the ejector rod on a single action revolver.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >what happens when you accidentally close the action on your hand
              The same thing that has happened for over a hundred years, it hurts and you learn not to do that again. Is this really your argument?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >You learn not to check if the chamber is clear anymore
                Is this really a solution?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                It had a spring loaded rod to clear the chamber. No reason to stick your digits in there.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Where?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                On the bottom of the handguard. It had a folding handle that fit into a depression so it didn't get caught on shit.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The morons who think this is some incomprehensible Rube Goldberg machine have never seen the inside of a pump or lever action.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >have never seen the inside of a pump or lever action

              Both of which are unreliable as frick and can jam in all sorts of ways that aren't as easy to clear as dropping the mag and pulling the bolt back

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The ejection port is right where your support hand needs to go. Unironically would only work as a bullpup.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Should have made it a bottom eject bullpup like the Steyr.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              this looks like a too long action for a bullpup.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                They could have cut the bolt length in half and moved it forward into the op rod like in the Steyr.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          It could have been a lot simpler and more visually compact as a bullpup, but the Army hates bullpups for unclear reasons. Too hard for the average zogbot to find where the magwell wandered off to, I guess.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Its not just the zogbot replacing bullpup

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >You just want a spacegat memepup
        Yes. If GD's entry was exactly the same except as a pullbup, I would have shilled for it every day. I even would have given the Sig a fair shake if it did the same. The balance inherent to bullpup configuration is such a massive benefit for a fighting gun that I can not stress it enough. Conventional designs only make sense to me for guns designed to be fired from a bipod.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >If GD's entry was exactly the same except as a pullbup
          Woops, meant Textron.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >conceptually good but meant it was a stinky bullpup
      >literally useless
      >good but all that shit is clapped to hell anyways
      >good
      1/4 ain't bad, I guess.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The request for the 6.8 to be the standard infantry rifle round is moronic, however, if you want those numbers the bullpup was the most logical way to get there. Would make a fine DMR if they tuned it for accuracy or something. I’m not against changing up 5.56, but it should be a .300 BLK style round that increases energy at the cost of range. But as I said, for what was wanted the bullpup did the job

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Would make a fine DMR if they tuned it for accuracy or something
        Should we tell him?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I mean if the gun were built around being a DMR it would have been better. But now it has all these downsides that handicap the DMR role at the price of the infantry rifle requirements

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The Army doesn't need a new DMR, though. If they did they would have just gotten something chambered in .308 instead of requesting companies to develop cartridges that can replicate .308 performance from a carbine-length barrel.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >I’m not against changing up 5.56, but it should be a .300 BLK style round that increases energy at the cost of range. But as I said, for what was wanted the bullpup did the job
        I thought the /k/ hivemind said 6.8mm SPC was awful, when it does just what you said. Only reason to ever use .300 Blackout is if you're going to be using subsonic ammo from suppressed weapons. Not worth it for typical infantry.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          It is. They should have gone with a cartridge that increases both energy and range at the same time. 6mm ARC would be perfect, would just need to beef up the bolt a little compared to the standard AR.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >6mm ARC would be perfect, would just need to beef up the bolt a little compared to the standard AR.

            New hotness is the 6mm MAX
            Allegedly no need to beef up the bolt, and doesn't have the problems of the arc.

            Actually if what is advertised true, looks pretty good as an infantry round

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Sounds like low pressure cringe shit to me.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              That looks like absolute garbage. Literally just necked up .223 without the taper. No room for high BC bullets, no additional case capacity, low pressure limit because with a long case and no taper it wouldn't extract at 62k. It's just a worse 6.8 SPC. There is no reason to use this piece of shit over M855A1.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Literally just necked up .223 without the taper
                >no additional case capacity
                Removing the taper adds capacity, so the second part would be wrong even if the first part was correct.
                Moreover, the body diameter is increased to .390 (based on .350 Legend) -- you can see it's rebated if you just look at the picture. Which further increases capacity.

                >low pressure limit
                Exactly the same as its parent .350 Legend and grandparent .223.
                Also essentially the same as 5.56 when measured the same way (conformal transducer); the commonly cited 62k max comes from a different testing method.
                Moreover, milspec 5.56 ammo has to meet velocity and port pressure limits that make the max pressure largely irrelevant, no matter which method is used.
                >because with a long case and no taper it wouldn't extract at 62k
                No.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Cope
                Explain why it's better than 6.8 SPC.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Explain why it's better than 6.8 SPC.

                Not the same reasoning behind the 2.
                6.8 SPC is basically an american 7.62x39. Althought for whatever moronic reason it was developped with the mk12.
                6 MAX is just trying to address the problems with 6 ARC (bolt, longevity, large case...). It's also designed for longer range, can shoot out to 1000y. And it's still pretty good even with shorter barrels. Around 3100fps out of a 10.5 barrel with 55gr, around 2900fps with 62gr. Still low recoil (lower than 6arc, bit more than 5.56).

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                6 max fixes the "problems" with the 6 arc, but it "fixes" the advantages, too. You now have a case with less capacity than 6.8 SPC (35gr vs 37gr), lower pressure limit (55 ksi vs 58 ksi) and without the ability load VLD bullets to magazine length like a proper long range cartridge like 6mm ARC, .224 Valkyrie, etc. It's nothing but a scam to get tacticool /arg/ gays to buy new barrels.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >6.8 SPC is basically an american 7.62x39.
                pretty much what the designer said himself, he wanted x39 in the first place, but US Gov is full of morons who can't get around emotional nonsense that precludes them from even considering adopting something "soviet"
                >Althought for whatever moronic reason it was developped with the mk12.
                I don't remember the reason for this, but maybe budget, or wanting to ship two things in one package, a new round and a new DMR at the time

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >I don't remember the reason for this

                He's often in the livestream on the Tactical Rifleman channel, and did one where he pretty much explain the whole story of the 6.8, was pretty interesting. And yeah, it was pretty much we want x39, but we can't, so we'll make our own...
                It was livetream #100 if i remember right but i can never find it.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >It was livetream #100 if i remember right
                Looks like there's only 83, so that probably isn't right.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Looks like there's only 83, so that probably isn't right.

                Pretty sure it was #100
                https://www.instagram.com/tactical_rifleman/p/CTQUprOLTz2/?img_index=1

                But they started from #1 at some point, and some deidcated livetream channel... Maybe some older episode were deleted. I don't know, but can never find it when looking for it. It's still up i think, watched it again not long ago after i found a direct link to the episode on some random forum.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >It's still up i think, watched it again not long ago after i found a direct link to the episode on some random forum.

                Guess the video is unlisted. WHen checking the playlist, there's one for livestream with 124 videos, with a mention "120 unavailable videos are hidden"...
                That's why i couldn't find it, if you don't have a direct link, it won't show in the search

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >I don't remember the reason for this

                He's often in the livestream on the Tactical Rifleman channel, and did one where he pretty much explain the whole story of the 6.8, was pretty interesting. And yeah, it was pretty much we want x39, but we can't, so we'll make our own...
                It was livetream #100 if i remember right but i can never find it.

                From here it looks like what happened was that the SCAR was originally developed to give them the ability to field rifles chambered for either 5.56x45 or 7.62x39, but when that was cancelled they had to develop a new cartridge that could give them the performance they wanted with a bolt face small enough to fit the M4.
                http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.8-mm-spc-cartridge-history-development-hornady-stag-arms-carbine/

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Supersonic loads are roughly comparable to 7.62x39. Although obsolete, 7.62x39 does have less deflection through brush than conventional rounds (5.56/5.45), which is why Spetsnaz reportedly retains AKMs for jungle warfare.
          It's a stretch, but something like .300 BLK isn't completely out of the question as a general-purpose rifle cartridge. It would need a customer with unusual doctrine. Maybe an emphasis on urban, jungle, and night operations? With higher-calibre DMs for 300m+?
          For comparison, .45 ACP remains popular with USSOCOM, despite being militarily 'obsolete'. .300 BLK + .45 ACP is an interesting combination to think about.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Army has a hate boner for beretta.
      They got a new pistol to spite beretta
      They rejected the 277 because the slated manufacturer would have been beretta.

      Also some sig bribes and sig swapping out the ammo when no one was looking in the trials helped smooth things out a bit.

  32. 1 month ago
    Hugh Jass

    Felt recoil is multi-factorial. It's also partly subjective, e.g. training/familiarity can influence felt recoil. M1911 users may think the Glock recoil is 'high' because it's 'snappy'. People trained on Glocks may think the M1911 recoil is 'high' because it's more spread out in a 'shove'.

    Some common objective measures of felt recoil are free recoil energy and peak force. Free recoil energy the kinetic energy of the recoiling firearm if no-one was holding it. That's like lightly holding the butt in front of your shoulder and pulling the trigger. It's not the real firearm energy in practice, but it does permit objective comparison based only on specs, without needing range tests. I think I've seen free recoil impulse also used. Peak force is simply the maximum force experienced at the shoulder, which varies depending on how well the butt is supported. This can be measured with strain gauges in the butt during actual, realistic firing, but it requires testing.

    By these measures, shorter barrels give less recoil due to lower muzzle velocity, all other things equal. However, short barrels also give higher flash and blast, which increases felt recoil, psychologically. Suppressors are good because they not only reduce flast and blast, but also act as a muzzle brake, and add forward weight. Muzzle brakes designed to act as compensators can counteract both free recoil energy and muzzle rise. Even with all other things held equal, muzzle rise will vary with the height of the boreline. E.g. someone used to modern pistols may think a single action revolver has 'huge recoil', when really it's designed to 'flip' to get your thumb on the hammer after each shot. Higher muzzle rise increases felt recoil, both psychologically, and due to increasing time to get back on target, but both effects can be reduced with training. Forward weight reduces muzzle rise by increasing moment of inertia, and things like optics, lights, lasers, and UGLs all contribute to this.

    • 1 month ago
      Hugh Jass

      Cont. Peak force can vary widely with action and buffer design. Some designs let the bolt/BCG slam into the receiver hard, forward and backward (e.g. AK), and others are very gentle (e.g. Jim Sullivan's so-called 'constant recoil' designs). Someone trained on one buffer can think another buffer is awful, because they've trained their body to compensate precisely for a particular force-vs-time curve, as in the M1911 vs Glock example above.

      So overall, if we want to compare recoil, we need to define our terms first.

      >every reviewer has complained of excessive recoil
      Insane cope that not a single person except fudd boomers who have not shot the gun have complained about
      Anyway heres 5' 110 pound Lena Miculek shooting the full power brass steel hybrid

      This video is cool but it doesn't really say much either way. I've seen a video of a G3 being handled the same way, it doesn't mean the G3 is controllable in full auto.
      - Factors in favour of the XM7: user is short, with a light build, and is not losing control of the firearm.
      - Factors against: she's leaning right forward, thumb over bore, with the forward weight of a large optic and a suppressor. If you look at the muzzle (or suppressor tip), and her legs, she's not really controlling the burst - the muzzle is rising and she's standing up slowly in an attempt to compensate. The target is not shown - half her rounds may be flying over its 'head'. Battle rifles can be fired like this but it takes a lot of force pushing forward on the foregrip. This is tiring and can't be seen in the video. I'm guessing she started 'strong and hard', but couldn't quite maintain her initial muscular effort.

      The raison d'etre of 5.56mm rifles was to be controllable in bursts, and they are, fired from an ordinary, realistic, 'run and gun' stance and grip, even without large additions to the moment of inertia.
      So the video shows that a lightly built woman, with the right stance, grip, training, and accessories, can (almost) fire controllable bursts. That doesn't really say much, either way, about the experience of an average shooter in combat.

  33. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Probably can just assume sig is in the wrong here. Made in India crap

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The NGSW guns, ammo, and optics are all made in the US. Just like all military procurement contracts, unless your get a special waiver to buy from a foreign source, which must be approved every 18 months to determine if a domestic alternative is available, and if it is you must use the domestic supplier.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I know this. Sig is a weird company using the name of a good European manufacture and now they make shit and source parts from India. I understand sig is really popular and they make legion gay guns that are good to shoot but the brand is a israeli made in India dumpster fire and no one should support it.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          You clearly don't understand since the NGSW is entirely made in the USA.
          Enjoy your unhinged rant though.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Dude there’s no such thing as made in the USA. The final product may come out of a U.S. assembly center but that’s it. Either parts or parts of parts or the machines that made the parts or parts of machines that make parts of parts come from China or somewhere else. Same thing with optics.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Nope, it's all made in the US. That's a requirments of US military procurement contracts.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              The company making the optic had to open up an entirely new US based assembly line and source optics from a US company instead of their usual Chinese manufacturing facility and suppliers.

              So yeah, good job showing you have no idea what you're talking about though, it is funny if nothing else.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >big company would never lie
                Ok newbie

  34. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The recoil system wasn't really novel to either of their systems.
    It was basically an artillery mount, even the Chinese did something similar in their recent light-weight .50 cal HMGs.

  35. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    At first I thought that thumbnail was some madlad with a stupidly frickhuge bren gun style magazine.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Damn, that looks like it would be about 200 round capacity if it were

  36. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >claiming that Sig conducted corporate espionage to obtain design data used to compete in the NGSW program
    bollocks they are just after settlement gibs like the rancid bullshit powered coin seekers they are

  37. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    is the NGSW for squirrel shit?
    cuz that's the only that would make sense, NGSW for regular infantry just seems so bizarre.

  38. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The recoil averaging tech sounds like a system where after your boot is locked and fires, the bolt carrier group recoils forward i dependently of the bolt unlocking.

    Basically, bolt moves back, carrier moves forward, canceling most of the recoil.

    That said, Sigs MG 338 uses a long recoil barrel system which in theory could be bootstrapped to something like this, but thats a hard patent to defend because TV would essentially be claiming they own the patent to a reciprocation bolt carrier group.

    The claims they discovered Sig stole data is a huge McFricking prove it dipshits, moment, because I could find absolutely nothing hinting to this.

    Considering True Velocity is looking to go public after purchasing all its shares back, the whole thing stinks. Maybe not of sour grapes, but someone, somewhere is looking to make a dollar.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >carrier moves forward, canceling most of the recoil
      This guy didn't pass physics.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        From a car going 20 mph, throw a ball in the opposite direction of travel away from the car, at 20 mph. See what happens.

        Inertia is relative, moron. Someone didn't pass physics.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >the bolt carrier group recoils forward i dependently of the bolt unlocking.
      I really cannot understand what you are trying to say, but the action was shown clearly in this post:

      [...]
      The XM250 uses a rotating bolt.

      Replace the rear spring with a block of steel, and it's just a conventional gas-operated rotary-locking action.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The Russians did something like you said.
      Having a weight with a synchronizing gear running forwards as the bolt+carrier moves rearwards.
      Does work, but ultimately can only reasonably counteract the recoil of the bolt carrier itself, rather than the bolt carrier and cartridge recoil.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      moron wrong on ALL accounts

  39. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    is ngsw pronounced like the saw villain's name if he was black?

  40. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    you gays know that most "reviewers" used the low power training ammo and not the real deal, right?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      There's barely even a difference at this point, the pressure of the "full power" ammo was reduced to 70 ksi.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        source?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          There was an interview with a Sig rep on YouTube someone posted a week or two ago, he confirmed that they reduced the pressure for better accuracy. Check the archives.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What the hell am I going to look for in the archives to find something like that?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              I found it in about 30 seconds searching for "sig 70k." You really should learn how to search for things, it's a very important skill in modern life.

  41. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

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