Sup PrepHole,
i’m trying to get this ancient mill running again. My father told me that he didn’t use it for at least 20 years, bc it blew the main electrical fuses and started to smell “funny”. He also didn’t bother to have it fixed, so I’m taking measures into my own hands. I already checked if the fuses are appropriate for the machine.
>my guess
They added an outlet on the side to power an old metal lamp. The wiring seemed off tho, the neutral was hooked on to the ground (picrel). I’m guessing this (and the godawful dirt) led to the blown fuses.
What do you guys think? How should I wire the outlet correctly?
> Hey guys, i just fricked around with the main wiring for then entire mill to add a lamp in a metal housing. I will be touching that unnecessarily conductive lamp while barefoot pools of water. When i turned it on, it blew up.
> Think i should change the wiring back?
> Nah, just don’t go near it for 20 years.
you sure do a lot projecting. the mill is from 1940/50 and my grandpa bought it used (not sure if second or third hand). he died long before i was even born and since my father kept the machine shop as a hobby and didn't generate an income off of it, he didn't bother.
i thought the far left yellow cable was the ground (pic is all cleaned up). we should have a multimeter laying around somewhere tho.
The yellow wire in that pic is the safety ground. It's not a best practice to use the safety ground as a neutral line but I think you have bigger problems than a lamp if it's blowing fuses and smelling funny.
I just learned about wiring my own house, did it, and i agree. Im not an electrician, but the lamp with a neutral/ground connection is a small code violation (because a fault where the neutral carries power then energizes grounds eerywhere) its not the reason for funny smells or a mill not workin.
Be careful anon. There is a thing of knowing just enough to get yourself in trouble. Get one of those little ac light up power pens. You dont know whos tracks your following.
>I think you have bigger problems than a lamp if it's blowing fuses and smelling funny.
which would be? i thought the lamps wiring was the reason. i'll use the mill today to see if it still blows fuses.
>multimeter
dug up this old boy. i'll search youtube how to detect errors with it
Hello my dude
I guess you could remove the lamp for now and use a multimeter to check which lead is ground, as the machine itself should be connected to that wire somewhere
The hook up the 3 phases, shouldnt be too difficult to find the right combination
I want to see pics of the actual mill
Seems like a bretty cool project
providing brethren
Looks to be in pretty good shape for sitting around so long
da frick is that? obviously not a bridgeport. are you sure that's a mill, or some weird special 1940s thing?
>are you sure that's a mill
It's obviously a mill, anon.
very 50's
Again, im not an electrician.
Doesnt the tag imply it takes 80 amps at 380 volts to make 50 hz 110 power or is that the other way around? 80 amps at 110 would make like 23 amps at 380?
It looks like this needs power that... should not also be powering a desk lamp. Thats my opinion. Post the breaker its on, op.
>Post the breaker its on
do you mean picrel? sorry im a ESL. also i highly doubt that someone messed with the electrical panel, since i believe it's on an asbestos plate and we recently had a professional adding a fuse/breaker for a CEE 16/5 socket.
the motor tag (also picrel) rates the triangle wiring for 220v/11.1amps and the star wiring for 380v/6.4 amps. the fuse (or breaker, don't know the correct term in this case) is rated for 500v/15amps
>Get one of those little ac light up power pens
nice, we have one laying around
>the motor tag rates the triangle wiring for 220v/11.1amps and the star wiring for 380v/6.4 amps
380v*6.4a means it will draw up to 2400VA, which shouldn't trip a 500/15 breaker. Some anons posting using the transformer's ratings (380v/80a), suggesting that motor needs a whole commercial kitchen's worth of power are incorrect, that's simply the largest amount the transformer is capable of handling without itself breaking down. Unless its output leads are connected right to each other with very little load (impedance), it will never actually pull tens of thousands of VA.
The nature of this is odd, though, because that doesn't make sense with European power standards to me? Can any EU anons verify this, I thought you used 380v for three-phase supply. In that case I don't understand why a 380v-capable, async motor isn't wired directly to service without a transformer?? Is that transformer even triphase? It looks like maybe not? In which case I think it's possible the transformer is only there for your lamp, or another part of the machine that runs on low-voltage or from the USA.
The two black boxes DLS 10a above your x former (there should be three, actually?) look like motor starter current buffers, which act to prevent overload during certain mechanical conditions. This anon (
) is correct, when a motor is held from spinning (or first starting up from a stop), it provides virtually no resistance and very little torque. Starters, which can also break down, contain a magnetic or electrostatic component that raises the voltage up as the motor energizes, rather than providing the full power right away when there's nothing to cap it to reasonable current.
You can check asynchronous motor coils a little with an AC meter though; connect your multimeter across one coil, put it in the highest-sensitivity (lowest voltage-range) AC mode, and spin the motor's spindle with a hand drill. It will act as a (tiny) generator if the coil is OK.
Im the guy this anon pointed out was wrong about thinking specs of the transformer were draw.
^the above guy poster is definitely the guy you want to pay attention to here
I’m no expert but worked on some old German machinery before. Some random information
It’s an autotransformer, they are normally used to let the machine use different input voltages buy it’s hard to tell how it’s wired from the pictures.
Often they come with a switch that lets you select the input voltage you’re using, and they will blow fuses when on the wrong settings.
> The two black boxes DLS 10a above your x former (there should be three, actually?) look like motor starter current buffers
I would guess DLS here means Drehzahl Leistungs Steller, which can mean either soft starter or frequency drive, but could be mistaken. Btw the vertical axis says “Switchings per Hour”, the left diagonal line says “Reverse current braking” and the right one “Short circuit [something]”
>Btw the vertical axis says “Switchings per Hour”, the left diagonal line says “Reverse current braking” and the right one “Short circuit [something]”
thank you, I was having so much trouble trying to read that perfectly enough to feed into a machine translator.
Technically this part is named a "contactor" but it's really just a big relay. So I was wrong, they aren't motor starters, but simply part of the user switching circuit which turns the machine on/off.
It's possible one or more could be broken, in which case one or more of your phases might be either open or short. If you check the bottom of this nice page ( https://controlparts.com/pages/obsolete ) you will find that part, DLS 10a, with a nonretired replacement model that will be much easier to source.
>It’s an autotransformer, they are normally used to let the machine use different input voltages buy it’s hard to tell how it’s wired from the pictures.
this makes me think the transformer would be used to drive up 380V from 110 if the high voltage wasn't available? Because in the opposite configuration, it would not drive that motor at mere 110 volts in either tri or star configuration. So a shop in Switzerland wouldn't be using it because they have 380 natively?
>Often they come with a switch that lets you select the input voltage you’re using
ooh, OP, can you post a photo of the switching box and/or what the other leads of those relays are connected to. The colors are pretty messy but it will probably tell us something.
Those black boxes look exactly like every motor control relay I've ever seen. You run a small amount of current through them to switch the large current for the motor on and off. One should be for the motor that drives the spindle and the other for the motor that moves the table.
>One should be for the motor that drives the spindle and the other for the motor that moves the table.
I don't believe anon has a powered table, I think it's just a three-phase spindle motor, which would need a relay (contactor!) on each phase, no?
Not that anon but no, they are three phase contactors/relays, very common in machinery. It’s just one coil that pulls 3 contacts at a time. Though on machines that have been used in professional shops it’s not uncommon to have a spare part already mounted (but not wired) inside the control box.
It’s also not uncommon to have an additional contactor in place, wired on the switching side, that can be used to connect an auxiliary device. That way the customer doesn’t have to change internal wiring to connect, for example, a desk lamp
thanks, makes perfect sense, unless OP has another big motor hiding somewhere on that machine. Zooming in, looks like you're right and the right-side one isn't wired to switch anything?
i also made photos of the wiring for what i think is the coolant pump (theres "pompa" written above two buttons). i don't know what the "rapido" and "motore" switches do yet. i also included the power switch for the sake of completeness.
the y and z axis have power feed powered by a separate motor, which actually works
Motore inverts motor direction(s) by swapping phase, rapido probably switches phases between star/delta or star/double star (dahlander config) to change the speed of a 3 phase motor.
i did some milling with moderate load, didn't blow any fuses. im quite happy. i'll see if i can bust out a little project this week (which will be posted in here or in a new thread). has anyone an idea on how to get the greasy grime off of the machine? i tried with wd40, but the paint came off.
>You can check asynchronous motor coils a little with an AC meter though; connect your multimeter across one coil, put it in the highest-sensitivity (lowest voltage-range) AC mode, and spin the motor's spindle with a hand drill. It will act as a (tiny) generator if the coil is OK
thanks for the tip! i'll try this one
very interesting, thank you! i'll post better photos. haven't seen a switching box, but ill check again tomorrow. if i get rid of the gunk perhaps i see what the different levers are for
Glad that it works!
> i don't know what the "rapido" and "motore" switches do yet.
Try them out? It’s hard to tell from the pictures unless you could make some simple drawing of how it’s wired or tell us which cable goes where.
For the transformer, 380 and 220 are (or were) common line voltages for Europe. There’s also 280 (phase voltage for industrial US 3phase). Not sure why theres 160V. But from that I’d say right side of auto transformer is input (currently wired for 380V) and left side is for the motor, always gets 110V.
Thing is, most of Europe changed 3p line voltage from 380V to 400V between 1980-1990. Maybe the breaker start tripping around that time?
>But from that I’d say right side of auto transformer is input (currently wired for 380V) and left side is for the motor, always gets 110V.
the spindle motor already posted is 240/380V and 3-phase. You think just the bed/table driver is 110?
Yea I guess because the three phase spindle motor definitely isn’t wired from the autotransformer. The relays are wired for 3 phase though. Upon closer look looks like right relay powers transformer and transformer powers 110v stuff.
Left relay seems to power the 380 3p stuff and the right relay. If they work you should be able to hear a click as you push buttons/switches
The spindle motor and feed motor should both be three phase at the same voltage. The coolant pump is likely to be 110 single phase.
the x-axis was so damn hard to move that i decided to take it off and clean it, took me almost 4 hours. it actually has a powered feed as well, which works fine to my luck. theres just so much old oil and grease and everything is clogged up. you dont really see it on the photo (bottom right), but the old grease and dirt became a threaded extension of almost 2 cm for the axis spindle. the oiler (bottom left pic and bottom left corner of the table, where many "hoses" connect to) is clogged as well, couldn't even blow though with compressed air.
the y-axis wasn't that bad. i moved the table to its far ends and cleaned the axis with scotch brite and wd40. i'll probably do the same with the z-axis.
i guess this thread is now a mill restoration thread, but damn, these machine-restoration vids on youtube really do over-romanticize it.
>Try them out? It’s hard to tell from the pictures unless you could make some simple drawing of how it’s wired or tell us which cable goes where.
>If they work you should be able to hear a click as you push buttons/switches
>Motore inverts motor direction(s) by swapping phase, rapido probably switches phases between star/delta or star/double star (dahlander config) to change the speed of a 3 phase motor.
ill check it next time im in the shop
>cleaned the axis with scotch brite and wd40
Well if it wasn't worn out already it is now. In either case the ways and gears require way oil for lubrication. It looks like someone greased them which is pointless as it's far too thick.
UPDATE
i cleaned the surface as good as possible. unfortunately, the rust in the middle section was so substantial that i had to use a brass wire wheel. i'll probably get shit on for doing this but given that the machine wasn't needed this long and neither my father nor me are commercial machinist or need parts with übermensch tolerances, i'm fine with it. also i highly doubt that it was a high precision machine to begin with.
when i tried to rotate the locked up sub-table (don't know the proper term) i discovered some metal chips in the gearbox of the feed that need to be cleaned out. the sub-table is too heavy for me to lift alone and we don't have a crane, so i have to wait for someone to help me. i really hope i don't find myself falling down a rabbit hole of things to fix and just call it done at some point.
bottom pic is the disassembled oiler. the valves seem clogged, they don't let any compressed air through. i also poked in with a needle to see if a ball seized up in there, without success. i'm hesitating on drilling them out since i don't want to mess it up. i'm thinking of replicating them on the lathe.
the following updates will take longer from here on, since uni started again. thanks guys!!
>Well if it wasn't worn out already it is now.
i'll see with a dial indicator how much screwed i am. i guess i could get it reground if it is completely out of whack.
>way oil
will gear oil suffice or is it too thick as well?
>a brass wire wheel
careful hans, that orange paint is guaranteed 80% lead oxide pigment
>will gear oil suffice or is it too thick as well?
google gleitbahnöl. it is not expensive and common stuff
every new pic you take makes me more and more jealous of this mill, anon
so fricking cool
If I had to guess both of those buttons are for the power feed and don't have anything to do with the main drive. Rapido, absolutely means speed but it might be speed for the table, not the spindle. Motore might engage/disengage/switch the table motor.
There's never a reason to reverse the spindle direction really, having a switch for that is unlikely. Changing spindle speed is also rarely done electrically. We change a pulley, belt, or gear to alter the ratio between motor and toolhead, but the motor speed itself is const
Can't tell from your photo exactly but that drive under the table looks like two motors, each single phase. That's sometimes done to get a stronger drive in a narrower space, wired opposite each other so the same phase turns them opposite direction. Another possibility is "rapido" engages the second motor on top of the first one. You have two more wires heading off that bus which are probably for coolant (or drive another axis if u have it).
But if your dad said it blew fuses and smelled funny even WITHOUT using the table power drive? then it's not any of that
> There's never a reason to reverse the spindle direction really, having a switch for that is unlikely.
It has small CW/CCW pictograms on the switch setting. You’re right about the spindle but they might both be for the power feed motor(s) which are usually electrically reversed and on older machines sometimes by a single central switch
Yes 100% agree
Another way to use two motors like that, you can drive both axes. I don't remember the gearing magic but, turning them both the same way moves Y that way, but turning them opposite ways turns X one way. Not super common to me but that mill is like twice my age
Op that transformer produces the 220v volts for the control circuit since your machine does not have a neutral going in.
This is very common even to this day
This transformer is rated 80VA so if your dad connected a 60w lamp this thing was already overloaded and the the source of the smell
DO NOT FRICK WITH THE MOTOR TERMINALS
If you connect that thing in delta configuration you will fry it!!!!
In what universe is 60W AC greater than 80VA. If his lamp wasn't rated for 220 it'dve exploded, not put out 100w lmao
that transformer is already loaded with its intended use. one of these old contactors easily pulls 10-15VA, i admit i was wrong tho, 110v control circuit. Should have read the thread first. The lamp (if 220v) is unlikely the culprit, running only at 1/4 the rated wattage.
But who knows what that other new red cable does they connected to the secondary.
It's rated at 80VA, Volt-Ampere... Primary coil is rated for 380V, Secondary coil for 110V...
UPDATE
cleaned the sub-table. when i took the photo i already sprayed it with wd40 and scratched on the rust part. i'm pondering if i should repaint the area where the gears are. the brakecleaner took off quite some paint, but i guess when i oil everything when reassembling it should be fine. i guess i should also disassemble this last part to properly clean the ways of the y-axis.
i dropped the clogged up valves into gasoline, hope it helps. i also need to replace the leather gasket of the waycover for the z-axis.
>careful hans, that orange paint is guaranteed 80% lead oxide pigment
shit i lightly brushed over the outside surface of the mill, trying to get the disgusting gunk off.
> google gleitbahnöl. it is not expensive and common stuff
thanks freund
Is that an etched autographed QC mark from the manufacturer on the gear? That’s pretty sweet, and the moving parts look in really good shape for a 1965 machine
more pics please, OP
Wait i retract that.
Thats a bus bar with all kinds of shared colors, but the lamp nor the mill will care about that.
I bet you dont have enough power going in and connection ground to make 380v at 80 amps. Wires got hot, the paint around the ground bar burned and 20 years of corrosion are in your picture behind it.
Just take the bulb outta the lamp. Its not the issue.
This anon might be right
If you don't provide enough voltage for a motor the windings of the motor can't establish the proper counter EMF and it'll turn into a giant short.
My gut says "wired wrong" just isnt the explanation here. Op, this is obviously big boi equipment taking big boi power that was working at one point... so the liklihood that someone who didnt know what they were doing just going in and messing up connections seems quite low to me. People who know what they are doing sometimes are the reason rules are chosen to be ignored about colors with wires and such, and i bet thats whats going on here.
So your not in a house... this is like an industrial building? Cuz it seems you do have serious power feed coming in, or did at least.
Dont get your hopes too high here. Victory will be finding why your father unplugged it those fuses blew. The idea that a close to working thing that just needs one or two tweaks to get going was set down for generations and can wake up is basically fantasy.
Or, you get the golden ring, get it going, then figure out the fricked thing on it. But your looking for why those fuses blew not trying to make it work yet.
If the story plays out one way, it might have that as part 2...
Not trying to be a wet sandwich. Ive just... done some things in my life.
Whether or not to fix you dont have enough info yet.
Troubleshooting is very step by step. Thats why the first question is kinda, if it were to work, do you even have the power for it... and it doesnt seem like ur dad has a clue.
Look for something that looks like it got hot. Or smells.
Something drew more than 500v and 15amps. Itll leave tracks, something got hot instead of dancing
To put that in perspective, the way power works, at 110v (5ish times less) the amps would be 75. Many homes and apartments have 100 amp feeds.
Something took like 3/4 of the total energy the power company is willing to transmit to most houses hereto pop that fuse. Like the energy of 20 vacuums at once.
I frickin bet it smelled funny.
i appreciate the in-depth answer!
> So your not in a house... this is like an industrial building? Cuz it seems you do have serious power feed coming in, or did at least
i am in fact in a renovated farmhouse in switzerland. the shop is in the basement. my grandpa was a farmer and had a full machine shop which we kept (two lathes, a mill, 2 drillpresses, welding and grinding area etc). i am quite confident that the power feed is adequate, since we've been regularly using some of the other "ancient" farming equipment (eg firewood processing).
> Or, you get the golden ring
i kinda feel (or the delusional hope) that im on this path. after i made the thread i went and checked if the mill ran and it actually did but i have yet to check if it runs under load.
> Look for something that looks like it got hot. Or smells
thanks for the tip!
> Ive just... done some things in my life
kek we once blew the winding of our old tractor (has no battery) bc we didn't think too much when we added a headlight
Whats ur power bill like?
That sounds pretty sick.
Processing firewood via the power grid is not something i would think to do... like... log splitters have engines here or are powered by pto s from tractors. Nuts.
OP here, i didnt forget you guys. i'm just dealing with a personal issue right now. will be answering and posting updates tomorrow
That's lethal voltage, if anything warranted calling a proper electrician its this.
When i have to I'll put a days work into finding the relevent manuals even if I've got to check the library in the technical college for a bag of lemons. Turn off the mains power, don't work alone, make sure you're wearing propper boots.
Whenever I'm doing somthing the wrong way I do it twice as carefully.
It's possible it uses that lower voltage from the transformer for the coil(s) on the contactors.
Mill looks like a Saimp.
this is how banged up the dovetails of the x axis are
it a macut
small update
wasn't able to do much this weekend. the valves for the oiler are still clogged after sitting in gasoline for days. not sure if i should drill them out
maybe try heating them up or if you know somebody, ultrasonic cleaner
>maybe try heating them up
checked!
i'll try this today
UPDATE
sorry lads that its taking so long, uni started quite stressful
i tried to boil the oiler valves but it didn't do anything.
tried to take off the gear (topleft pic) to remove the "subtable" and properly clean the y-axis. but after over an hour of no success i gave up and cleaned the ways as much as i could (top middle pic). i also disassembled and cleaned the gears of the power feed.
whats left to do is to buy wayoil and motoroil, get a gasket for the z-axis, reassemble everything and start making some chips!