M-16 introduction in Europe

I'm currently reading CJ Chivers The Gun and i'm in the chapter about the M-16.

And while the whole affair with its adoptions was a huge shitshow in Vietnam it made me wonder one thing:

Did the M-16s that were given to units deployed in europe having these troubles too?
Or was it that the tropic climate of Vietnam worsened the problems the M-16 had?

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I would imagine it was a factor. The problems with the M16 were related to bad ammunition and instructions stating that weapons did not need cleaning, both of which would affect regular function even in a temperate environment; and I think its fair to say a tropical environment wouldn't help.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/oVu5TXm.jpeg

      I'm currently reading CJ Chivers The Gun and i'm in the chapter about the M-16.

      And while the whole affair with its adoptions was a huge shitshow in Vietnam it made me wonder one thing:

      Did the M-16s that were given to units deployed in europe having these troubles too?
      Or was it that the tropic climate of Vietnam worsened the problems the M-16 had?

      Lack of a chrome lined chamber in the humid conditions was the #1 issue.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Another problem, according to the book, was that sometimes the south vietnamese storage workers would steal the brass cleaning rods for scrap money.
      and besides the ammo the finishing of the gun was apparently insufficient to hold up in the jungle and rusting and pitting were quite severe in some cases

      But you never really hear about the other places it was issued in.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        US Army and Navy troops in Europe only got the M16 in 1967 with the introduction of the M16A1 which fixed most of the issues so no. What I don't know is if the USAF troops in Europe ever got M16s before that since they were the first branch to actually adopt it.

        Sort of dumb but wondering about how they planned on using them in Europe. I know Vietnam is a completely different environment and battlefield but was the A1 stuck with the grunt doctrine of lots of mags, full auto and rarely using the sights. At least not a decade or two.

        It is interesting to watch Vietnam era combat footage and see guys just going ham and magdumping from the hip into the trees. If anyone has any info about that being how they were trained for combat I'd be interested to check it out, and to compare it against any info on doctrine for European-stationed US units.

        US military troops in Vietnam were mostly trained on M14s, in fact a decent amount were trained on M1 Garands. You ever notice how they would carry the M16 with one hand around the receiver like it had no pistol grip? That's why.

        The US Army, Navy and USMC didn't issue M16s outside of Vietnam until 1967.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Air Force troops in Europe held onto their M1 carbines until the mid 70s, their Colt 604s mostly went to Vietnam and SAC nuke base guards before that

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Did they really give instructions that the rifle magically cleaned itself, who's idea was this??

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        No. He's lying.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      There were no official instructions that said it was self cleaning you fricking moron. There's not a single TM or book that has surfaced saying such.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Also the fact that the rifles were issued without cleaning kits is purely coincidental.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Advertisements/propaganda that the M16 was self-cleaning, on account of the Stoner operating system blowing dirt out of the side vents in the bolt carrier got combined with the actual issues like a lack of cleaning kits and poor ammo.
      But no one said the guns were totally self-cleaning. The problem was recruits not cleaning their rifles enough in general, many of them were trained entirely on M14s and handed M16s in Vietnam with just a general, "this end shoots", type instruction.
      Cleaning kits were slow to be produced in large enough numbers to deal with the utterly excessive fouling Olin powder left behind.

      Pic snipped from The Black Rifle.
      They did tell soldiers to clean the guns a lot, but unfortunately most couldn't really do that. Either due to lack of supplies or bad conditions.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Sort of dumb but wondering about how they planned on using them in Europe. I know Vietnam is a completely different environment and battlefield but was the A1 stuck with the grunt doctrine of lots of mags, full auto and rarely using the sights. At least not a decade or two.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It is interesting to watch Vietnam era combat footage and see guys just going ham and magdumping from the hip into the trees. If anyone has any info about that being how they were trained for combat I'd be interested to check it out, and to compare it against any info on doctrine for European-stationed US units.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        might have been for the cameras or just out of desperation, since they often couldn't see the enemy in 'Nam

        also when where the first units in europe equipped with the M-16?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I guess it's a dumb question I'm asking, but CQB before GWOT is an interesting thing. Give a boomer veteran an AR and ask them about it I think that will paint you a good enough picture.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Underarm patrol carry and firing from the hip on contact was SOP for most allied militaries at the time, the idea was to get fire on the enemy position in the shortest time possible and then maneuver on them once they were fixed, it also put you in an advantageous position if the enemy managed to get close enough to grapple or stab you.

        Iirc this was infomed by jungle fighting in the pacific during WW2.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >SOP for most allied militaries at the time
          /raises hand

          What changed?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            during ww2 units would carry their rifles slinged on their backs while marching or when in combat zones would carry them around their waist like picrel
            germans in particular iirc were taught to carry their mausers one handed at their side so they could quickly dive to prone when they made contact

            This site should give you a good idea
            https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/othermedia/reenactment/weaponscarriage.htm

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Standing around magdumping is an easy way to get shot in the face. However, this was kinda necessary back in the day because of the close engagement distances and the fact that the M60 was a heavy bastard that was not easy to carry around all day and took time to get set up and firing. Once SAWs started getting adopted into the squad things became easier to immediately suppress.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Standing around magdumping is an easy way to get shot in the face. However, this was kinda necessary back in the day because of the close engagement distances and the fact that the M60 was a heavy bastard that was not easy to carry around all day and took time to get set up and firing. Once SAWs started getting adopted into the squad things became easier to immediately suppress.

            adoption of SAW's is a large part of it, the other part is that improvements in technology (optics, nv, thermals, personal radios, etc) made finding the enemy easier too, in nam the forward element of the patrol would keep a mag with nothing but tracers loaded so everyone else would know where to shoot if they bumped into something.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >late ww2
        >old guys say use more ammo
        >better to waste ammo then to waste guys to see what the fricks over there
        >continues on korea and nam from the ncos
        >bean counters take over
        >stop wasting ammo GI
        >etc
        >even more dumb shit. dont carry it by the carry handle hurr durr.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >a huge shitshow in Vietnam

    There were some hiccups but mostly it was grunts REEE'ing that the AK had more bullets in the clipazine.

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