Looking at the challenges faced by the Ukrainians, would it be a good idea for them to adopt the French platoon where basically everyone is a grenadier? Purely theoretical, I know there is no way to retrain and re-equip everyone right now, but did the Frogs actually have the right idea?
damn Pierre, they let everyone in your squad have sidearms?
Imagine hauling all that shit around in African heat
Imagine carrying a 800 grammes gun. How heavy is that?
it adds up, anon. that's .8 litres of water that you aren't carrying.
It's faster to swap to a pistol than to reload your rifle. It's also faster to run with your pistol out.
I was told that's an Afghanistan/Africa thing. When doing hearts & minds stuff and visiting tribal leader's hut, you leave your rifle outside to show goodwill, but you keep your sidearm at the ready.
why the fuck would a regular grunt visit the hut of some tribal leader? do you understand just how fucking stupid the regular grunt is?
nobody of lower rank than senior should be doing that sort of diplomacy stuff. Hell, most fresh lieutenants are probably too retarded to do it as well.
Politicians and Demonrats didn't want to get their hands dirty, but insisted that the US rebuild the country. The US Army left it to captains - sigh - to try and convert tribal leaders to a modern way of life.
The average age of a US Army officer is their early 30s. In the West, that is just about old enough to be having a wife and young child. And this is somebody who's made combat tactics and weapons their sole field of study for the past decade or so. What the fuck did they expect, that these young men would be able to handle tribal politics, diplomacy, basically NATION BUILDING in miniature, of a wholly different culture using only the equivalent of an Army-issue Lonely Planet guidebook to navigate socio-cultural mores with?!?! all in the span of a combat tour, while also managing their company and fighting jihadis? the tribal elders must have thought them hopelessly callow, if not literally insane!
there are videos on Youtube of Army officers trying to negotiate infrastructure development with Afghan / Iraqi tribals. it's incredibly cringey.
good points, anon.
I wonder what the tribal elders thought about why the westerners were only sending young boys and men to talk to them.
they probably wanted to talk to some greybeard that they felt had experience and authority.
and they weren't wrong.
is that a squad level mortar?
Yes but they are getting phase out for a traditional gl
Don't do it. We (Bong) did the same thing and regret it to this day regularly citing they should have kept it and that the French still use one. It was a huge mistake.
Afaik its only replacing the rifle grenade, although in theory rifles grenades are still a thing they won't be the standard loadout
People just don't understand that the 40mm and commando mortars have different roles
It's the rifle grenades that are getting replaced, the LGI is here to stay.
with IVAS, NGSW-FC, and squad drones, I can see the potential of using small light mortars on the squad level to an increase to indirect ranged firepower.
But how accurate are these mortars at like 800-1200 meters? It seems there's no baseplate at all for most of these mortars and they're just aiming by holding the tube itself.
These mortar rounds are like 2-3 pounds, so you can't really can't afford to miss much shots at the squad level.
LGI F1 is about 700 meters effective range. Frnech squad doctrine is that Bravo Team starts engaging at ~500-600 meters and delivers fire support with the LGI and Minimi, while Alpha Team is the assault element.
It's the closest you get to a modern day IJA Type 89 knee mortar.
All of the white side squad-size SOF elements in GWOT would run their own mortar in a 12-man group - ODA, SEAL platoon, Marsoc squad
>not picking the HK417 to please the Belgians
One day Herstal will be France again anyway.
I wanted the bullpup Croatian VHS
Where's drone operator? Outdated cold war shit, get it away from me
The mexican army does that, they give everyone in the squad a GL and iirc they train them to fire volleys
holy shit thats fucking extremely based
imagine 8 forty mike mikes landing at the same time
ok I am now officially erect, tell me more about this and why isn't every nation in the world doing this?
>why isn't every nation in the world doing this
don't need to and too much logistical burden
the Milkor MGL isn't even in widespread use because it's so situational; there are few instances when you'd want to bloop six 40mms in quick succession, so the weight isn't really worth it. and have you seen the way the average private pisses ammo? having a section's worth of M203s is just going to be a waste.
alternative ammo for anti-drone work is where 40mm should be going towards in the future, not rapid fire
Why would the Frogs have such an ammo intensive loadout and then have to ask allies for airlift? Seems like they bit off more than they could chew.
Because Airbus might get its shit together and get on sith the A400M one day.
I fucking wish, man
C-130 is getting long in the tooth
Froggos operate in different scenario. They are essentially riding and fuck hunting dozen of sandpeople. They can afford do it with some le boom-boom style
Ukies also fight sandpeople level enemy, but enemy is spending waves , sometimes they have track ork wagons.
I say AT4 for everyone!
I dislike disposable single-shot Anti-tank weapons, especially when it weighs almost as much as a modern Carl Gustaf which can fire 1000 shots.
NLAW gets away with it since it's at least guided and top-attack.
it's more like a ballistic computer-aided aiming, from what I understand
Just put squad level mortars on the IFVs. They have autonomous ones now that fire and aim for you. You can mark targets with a designator for smart munitions or with a drone. Eventually infantry men will probably be able to mark targets with their rifle fire control system/optic/rangefinder, and designate targets for UGVs that way.
I don't really think you need to go super heavy, super high firepower for the future. You need anti-tank weapons, but for beltfeds, mortars, grenades, etc. I think squad level UGVs will be the future, especially as population declines and manpower gets hard to find.
The UGV can field a GPMG or 20-40mm grenade launcher. One per squad or even per fire team gets you a lot of fire power, especially if the IFV is optionally manned and can bring in the autocannon and mortars and you have a supporting drone screen. You'll still want a squad belt fed, but you don't need to go overboard.
Now at the platoon level autonomous 81mm mortars and 105mm field gun UGVs might be able to also give you the fire power edge. You need less people to run these, so that leaves extra time to also manage the drones, which will also get more and more autonomous. Maybe these are company level, IDK, cost is an issue and interception will get expensive.
New smart shells and internetworked battle spaced mean you can use these to get munitions on target very quickly. EFP shells also offer the ability to hit armored vehicles with relatively less firepower, and it allows you to hit moving targets much easier due to the terminal phase being very high velocity. Newer munitions can even target weak points somewhat reliably.
I also like the idea of mortar or field gun launched recon drones. If your shit gets taken down you can have the platoon or company send eyes in for you very quickly, then the eyes send back a targeting solution and the munitions come in on target (provided they don't get smacked down, since overlapping interception is also the future).
i like the way you think, anon. I think something like that would have been extremely effective in the current conflict.
>Looking at the challenges faced by the Ukrainians, would it be a good idea for them to adopt the French platoon where basically everyone is a grenadier?
You mean Mexican. The French loadout looks no more grenade focused than the US or UK.
WHERE THE FUCK CAN I GET A WIDE GREEN FOREGRIP
that's just a parade showcasing the shit they use bro, they do got guys with nade lauchers but it's usually just 1 or 2 guys.
they do use some crazy and cool shit tho
It's funny that Mexico is still making new build G3 even though they're starting to move towards a 5.56 mainstay. Really proves how good of a platform the G3 is.
Only airborne and mountain troops have that "grenade launchers for everyone" setup. And that's only because they're not likely to get a lot of vehicular fire support when deployed in dense or isolated conditions. Normal infantry squads just have 2 grenadiers, 2 LAW and either an RPG29 or ATGM as it's seen fit by platoon leaders.
>THREE riflemen in the assault team
>they're encumbered with a UGL or a rocket
like fuck they're "assaulting" at anything other than a lumbering walk
yeah, this is what gets me every time with these retarded squad structures. three men is good for nothing. If one guy is hit, then you are down to just you and a buddy and you aren't assaulting or holding anything.
4 people is the way to do it. One goes down, you can still get some violence into your action. The fire support team can be three guys if there isn't enough space in the IFV for a fourth, but the assaulting team needs four bods.
Dumbest shit I heard all day. The less men in a squad, the more squads there are. When taking casualties they'll just fold into another squad. The amount of men is the same. This kind of thinking, where a formation is more robust because it contains more men leads to retarded shit like the Pentomic Structure.
>The less men in a squad, the more squads there are
No, THIS is Pentomic thinking, and it means coalition partners have to stop and think, "hmm, there's 1 company over there, but which country's company is it, is it a Big Company from X and or is it a Small Company from Y which is really only a platoon plus and needs support"
peak squad loadout
nah, this is peak
>hey dawg I heard you liked FALs
that is fucking peak autism
also how the fuck do you fire the C2A1 LAR from a prone position?
I guess the doctrine was ww1 style walking fire from the hip?
the same with long ass rpk banan mag
it has a bipod
Mag support, easier than you'd think
More variety than the US Marines all M27 squads.
IDK if this is even current, I think they have more grenades now.
The whole idea of not having automatic riflemen at the squad level is ridiculous and will probably never go into practice.
Also, the M38... I get the advantage of a single round for logistics, but when they invariably end up using belt feds again they should change this to a DMR using 6.8mm and go with the M250 for the LMG.
>not having automatic riflemen at the squad level is ridiculous
just give each dude a 100-round mag of some kind
suddenly anybody can be a SAW gunner
"every marine a rifleman" as actual doctrine lol
The IAR is a fucking pig but they are very accurate, probably because they're free floated. I believe my IAR gunner told me they were issued 20 magazines, probably someone who can chime in if that's standard now. I don't actually have any problem with the idea of every Marine a machine gunner.. Suppressive fire is basically just inaccurate rapid fire, its not rocket science, you can have two or more marines doing talking guns, alternating fire. Someone always had to do this in machine gun platoons anyway to conserve ammo/lessen the heat load on the barrels/cover for the other MG when they're reloading/barrel changing/corrective action, and also machine gun platoons still exist, just not at the squad level.
The bigger problem is logistical.. They do not issue any piece of equipment to carry more than six magazines and nothing even exists specifically for this. Yes, you can load up your first line and second line but thats a crazy amount of weight and complexity vs strapping belts around you or carrying a prepped can of 600rds. They just fill their pack up with the mags and reload their mag pouches later or have their fire team members grab them from where they can't reach. It's a clusterfuck and D60s don't make any sense either. You still have to load the mags with ammo manually because stripper clips don't work with pmags and there's no elegant loading solution that doesn't require a table.
>there's no elegant loading solution
somebody PLEASE come up with a reliable 100rd drum mag AND a machine that loads it quick
the USMC will buy a fuckton, inventor will be pissing gold and suddenly everyone can be a SAW gunner
Out of the fucking way peasants
this is pretty decent just need to swap the big mg for a pkm and maybe the gustav for a smaller grenade launcher
>the gustav for a smaller grenade launcher
the gustav is where the power resides
its good for blasting sand people on a mountain or a light vehicle convoy but its too bulky to be worth it for cqb when 1 round + launcher weighs more than 500 rounds of 7.62×54mmR in metal box mags
500 rounds of 7.62 won't blow up a sturdy brick house
why in gods green earth would we use a weapon in 76.2x54mmR? we dont use that caliber anywhere in our armed forces.
you know that that was swedish armed forces, not the finnish, right?
im thinking about ukraine and the the swedish loadout is probably the most rational one posted itt
aight, fair enough anon, sorry for my autistic screeching anon, but i am autistic
>only one 7.62 machinegun
>having medic carry an rpg
>6 man section
help, help, I'm retarded!!!
>not splitting the group across two vehicles
2+4 is better than 3+3, idiot
>making the medics carry a splint that's a metre long, 6kgs heavy, and could explode if shot at
whad dhe fug dhenmag??? DDDD:
Take this but give everyone except the CG team and MG an AT-4.
Give the SqL two AT-4. Fuck that guy.
AT-4 is barely any lighter than a new Carl Gustaf.
You save like MAYBE 3-4lbs.
Except now you have 1 shot and then it needs to be replaced. The CG can be fired 1000 times before you need to replace the tube. You also have a ton of options for ammo, high explosive, tandem HEAT, smoke, fragmentation, etc.
Give the squad leader a second UGL.
why is the US so fucking afraid of corporals?
Sounds too much like the word "corpulent", which hits too close to home
A US squad has as many Sgts as a British Armoured infantry platoon.
Most Bong platoons have 1 Sgt as well.
They seem to like the Colt 7s
>six man squad
you're shitting me
>Army Motorized Infantry Group
I'm guessing its 6 soldiers that Dismount from a CV9035NL
They're smoking tulips over there, wtf is that?
I must clarify the netherlands are NOT based in any way
What's the difference between a Colt 7 and M4/M16? Branding? Two tone color pattern?
> A Canadian Forces liaison officer worked with >the United States Marine Corps in the M16A1 Product Improvement Program and relayed information to Canada's Rifle Replacement Program Office. The C7 is much like earlier M16A1E1s, rather than final product M16A2s.
basically Canada wanted their own M16 but different.
All I know is that it's reportedly more accurate and durable, and that's why the bongs love it.
Nobody commenting on the full size shotgun?
damn that grip pod is MASSIVE
Shotguns are a retarded choice for combat weapons. Mutt stupidity
>muh close combat
A rifle is as good as a shotgun in close quaters and effective at longer ranges with more ammo and automatic fire.
what site are these from again?
I'd rather have 2 extra mags than a glock
how often are squads actually structured like they are shown in these infographics when in actual combat?
If we're looking at a conscript army it'll be difficult to equip everyone. Rather they buy more drones with the money.
*Ahem* Coming through Gweilo
w-what does the grenadier do when he is out of ammo?
d-does the assistant execute him with the pistol? a-and d-d-does the rest of the squad eat him?
The grenade launcher is used as a blunt instrument to beat the enemy to death (The grenadier is executed if he refuses)
>2 guys fucking around with a comically large piece of piping, we can disregard those two retards, they wont do shit.
>enemy shoots 1 guy
>your 'squad' is now a fireteam.
whats the tactical advantage of not being able to fire and manouver?
It's a mechanized rifle squad. In an ideal situation, they have their APC/IFV backing them up.
pf 98 is a lightweight rocket launcher that fires projectiles about twice the size of those you have for the carl gustav. it can be replaced with a shoulder fired agl if you need more close range firepower. theres nothing really like the pf98 in western arsenals
chinese mech infantry have very good vehicles in terms of firepower and terrain mobility imho
>twice the size
>theres nothing really like the pf98 in western arsenals
Yeah cause a 15kg unguided recoilless rifle is hilariously stupid
Someone gotta be there for when it explodes in your face
>a fucking pistol
>grenadier has nothing apart from the launcher
Jesus, they couldn't even give them shitty SMGs or something?
I think the frog Griffon squad is the most balanced. It has all the major food groups: DMR, commando mortar, machine gun, rocket launcher, UGL.
Other configs may have more of one, but be completely lacking in others. The frogs offer a complete meal.
They're missing the kitchen sink.
rifle grenades don't help against actual artillery.
The Aimpoint alone was probably a mistake. Either the average EVAT (grunt) is apparently to dumb to understand LPVOs so that's what they get, or they don't like buying American optics for regular army, so no Trijicons, Nightforce, or Vortex for regulars. Maybe the Scrome Octo-1 was too expensive for widespread procurement. They sure as hell aren't going to pay for Schmidt and Benders for everyone. Adding a magnifier would've been great. Heavy focus in African barren landscapes or urban training at CENZUB probably made them forget it's really hard to see a camouflaged peer in natural environments. It's not like a naked subsaharan against a sand dune.
Generally adopting anything French is a very bad idea.
why only 1 machine gunner?
and why don't drivers have a p-90 or mp-7?
>and why don't drivers have a p-90 or mp-7?
Meme weapons, only realy useful for high speed, low drag oper8ors. Carbine is good enough for anybody else.
>adding logistical burden
yeah sure retard, even their mg is minimi in 5.56
In fairness to that anon, the frogs could replace the Minimi with a lightened version of the FN MAG, since they already have somebody using 7.62 on the team (so they wouldn't add a new cartridge to the mix).
The sniper will be armed with match ammo, you're not going to be putting those rounds into a belt fed
yeah sure the French are just missing a gimpy and a drone, while you're at it, give them a MANPAD as well, and a belt fed grenade launcher, and a shotgun, and a flamethrower, and a....
direct impingement lost.