So I started doing electrical work for my uncle while renovating this big house.
I'm brand new at this. I'm just getting paid per hour, he is kind of training me and telling me what to do.
What happens if the house burns down and it is discovered that it was an electrical fire?
Could I get sued or held liable in any way?
Also, lets say I was working for the homeowner directly and he was paying me per hour, would I be held liable? I say this because my uncle just quit on the homeowner and the homeowner is now paying me per hour to do random things, including electrical.
I live in Ontario, Canada
if hes doing it without permits, he will be solely responsible for anything that happens. if you are doing the job yourself as a side job and arent certified or have any experience... yeah you could be liable for anything that happens and the homeowner can sue you. not sure how it is in maple leaf land but in america you can get sued for anything
He is getting permits and an electrical inspection. You are allowed to do your own electrical in Ontario.
Why would I be held liable? I am just following their instructions.
My uncle is a licensed electrician.
But yeah I see what you're saying, I shouldn't do electrical work on my own without my uncle there.
No you shouldn't do it at all, and legally you can't do it. Ontario only permits the actual homeowner to do their own work, and only for certain applications like renovations.
If this was a new build, you MUST hire a licensed electrician.
>So I started doing electrical work for my uncle while renovating this big house.
By your own post, you did not indicate it's HIS house. If it's HIS house, you're fine. If he's doing it for someone else, your province has a BIG fricking issue with it.
I don't know what's in the water in Ontario, I've met or run into a shitload of people from there, and their either degenerate drunks, or just pants on head fricking moronic.
>By your own post, you did not indicate it's HIS house. If it's HIS house, you're fine
What if it was his house? Am I not liable?
Anyway, the homeowner of this house I am working on knows some electrical and tells me what to do. Why wouldn't I also be fine in this regard?
Also,
Since the homeowner is getting an electrical inspection, wouldn't the inspector be at fault for certifying faulty work?
ALSO, how often do people sue electrical contractors if their houses burn down? Don't they just go to their insurance company and file a claim? Isn't it difficult to prove how the fire started unless it was something really dumb like using the wrong gauge wire/breaker?
Also, lets say I didn't frick any of the work up, could the owner say that it was still somehow my fault?
I'm a trainee, I don't see why I would be at fault for what my uncle told me to do.
>I'm a trainee, I don't see why I would be at fault for what my uncle told me to do.
>my uncle just quit on the homeowner and the homeowner is now paying me per hour to do random things, including electrical.
You're way to stupid to be fricking around with electricity.
I will be getting paid per hour to do electrical work for the homeowner now.
Either way I didn't do a single thing for the homeowner yet, my uncle just quit.
you and your uncle are fricking idiots. him for quitting and you being a trainee who dont know shit. I wouldnt pay you to change a fricking light bulb you uneducated fricking noob
Insurancegay here, most Homeowners policies cover fire loss. And if we're paying several hundred thousand dollars out because of it (think of the building rebuild, lost contents, hotel/food expenses for the residents for months on end), you can be sure we will spend money to investigate and find out who is responsible. I have dealt with more than one instance of shitty electrical work causing fires, luckily not with any fatalities.
Licensed electricians all have liability insurance, but they are almost never responsible for electrical fires. Most electrical fires are caused by pests like rats chewing the wires, or from some idiot doing work he isn't qualified to do (i.e. using wrong gauge wire, improper grounding, re-using defective shit like breakers that are faulty).
While I don't believe in actual magic, I will say the ability of a fire investigator is about as close to actual magic as I have ever seen. Their ability to analyze a fire and accurately tell us how it started is fricking unreal, it never stops amazing me.
TL;DR Insurance will cover it and go to great lengths to find out who cost them so much money, and they will push your shit in *legally* to recover their money.
Okay the only thing I did so far was work for my licensed electrician uncle doing what he told me to do. I'm not going to do electrical directly for the homeowner.
My only question now is, if the house burns down and the homeowner tried to sue my uncle for damages, will I be liable because I helped my uncle, or no?
Honestly he hasn't done electrical work in 10 years and he may not have liability insurance. If he doesn't have liability insurance, will that frick me or no? I was just his employee.
>If this was a new build, you MUST hire a licensed electrician.
He did hire one, my uncle is licensed.
I'm not going to be working for the homeowner doing electrical, nor did I start doing it.
My only question now is, if the house burns down and the homeowner tried to sue my uncle for damages, will I be liable because I helped my uncle, or no?
Honestly he hasn't done electrical work in 10 years and he may not have liability insurance. If he doesn't have liability insurance, will that frick me or no? I was just his employee.
It doesn't matter if your uncle is licensed and told you what do to. His licensing is what gives him the right to do that work, but to do it himself.
If the house burns down they'll want to know who did the electrical work. They'll go back to your uncle. If he doesn't have liability insurance they'll sue him personally and likely destroy him financially (unless he's rich). If he doesn't like you very much, he might tell them YOU did the electrical work, which will make you liable as well as him. He'd be liable for breaching his duty as the only licensed electrician there, and you'd be in trouble for doing illegal work you're not licensed to do.
What exactly DID you do in this house? Like install a ceiling fan or something? Or wire up an entire 200amp panel?
>What exactly DID you do in this house? Like install a ceiling fan or something? Or wire up an entire 200amp panel?
Run a bunch of wires, potlights and outlets
I didn't tie in any breakers.
Honestly I think the best thing for you to do at this point is burn off your fingertips with acid and move to another province and live as a homeless man for the next decade, just until you can be sure things are safe. BC loves drug addicted transients, you might think of starting heroin and moving to Vancity?
good idea
>wires, potlights and outlets
>I didn't tie in any breakers.
moron, everything you listed is connected to a break.
You're either trolling, or you're the most moronic person on PrepHole this month.
Did they test chemicals in Ontario? What the actual frick is wrong up there?
How on earth do you think electrician's apprentices and helpers get experience?
The licensed electrician takes responsibility for the work done. Employees are just more hands for the licensed electrician. Running cable and installing lights/outlets is a good way for inexperienced guys to assist the electrician, because that work is quite simple and can be easily inspected.
At the end of the day, the licensed electrician signs off on the installation. If shit goes sideways, it's his ass on the line.
There are legal exceptions if you're formally enrolled in an apprenticeship program, obviously.
Are you officially apprenticed and is this documented via the ESA and his trade union?
wut
you get licensed with NO experience in USA?
sounds moronic
you talk like a paki and your shit's all moronic
I know several people who got away with making claims on pretty sus fires. It seems like a fire just needs to be plausibly accidental for a policy to pay out. It's just that most arsonists are insane and dress the entire property with accelerant.
An insurance policy will normally not deny a claim unless it's clear that it was fraudulent/purposeful. Insurers are expected to act in "good faith" which means giving the benefit of the doubt even when there is some doubt.
But a fraudulent fire isn't the same as a fire started by incompetence/negligence. The latter are covered if they're accidental, but it doesn't mean the responsible party (i.e. incompetent contractor) won't still be held to account by the Insurer post-fact. There's an entire process and industry dedicated to this, it's called Subrogation.
You should probably stop. You could potentially get them to sign some form of release covering your ass but if you've represented yourself as knowledgeable and competent then the court will probably find you liable for any frickery on your part.
If it's an illegal renovation, i.e. one that requires a building permit but he didn't get one, then yeah you can get in deep shit. So can your uncle.
Don't frick around with electrical stuff, if he sells that house some day and it burns down you could be killing some innocent person instead of just your cheap uncle.
>4 posters in this thread
You are not allowed to do electrical work on someone's property unless you are a licensed electrician.
Why are you so hell bent on doing electrical work when you're clearly not qualified to do it?
>You are not allowed to do electrical work on someone's property unless you are a licensed electrician.
The homeowner is the one taking out the permit. I am just helping him.
It's the homeowners responsibility. You are allowed to do electrical on your own house.
He is getting an inspection.
ok go ahead gayet see what happens
bump
why wouldn't the inspector be liable if the electrical was wrong?
because he cant inspect anything,
if the house torches, 5 different inspectors will take it apart, if its something hidden inside a wall couldn't measure or inspect he will walk off scotch free,
if they conclude he only did a superficial inspection we probably gets a partial fault here.
he does the rough in inspection, then the final inspection
he should be able to see everything
why wouldn't it be 100% his fault?
>You are allowed to do the electrical, yourself, in your own house.
yeah but im just helping the homeowner, he is the one who took out the permit, he is the one telling me what to do
he is getting an inspection
why wouldnt it be on the inspector?
>why wouldnt it be on the inspector?
Because he didn't do the electrical work.
If he had the time to check every connection, he'd also have the time to actually do the work. He would be the electrician, not the inspector. He's not the electrician. Neither are you. This is not a difficult concept.
>Because he didn't do the electrical work.
yeah but he certified it was done properly
the insurance company requires an inspection for a reason
>If he had the time to check every connection, he'd also have the time to actually do the work. He would be the electrician, not the inspector.
Then what is the purpose of the inspector if they can be wrong all of the time with zero consequences?
>yeah but he certified it was done properly
Which certification does the inspector use when certifying a house? Can you answer that? Why not? Do words not mean what you need them to mean?
>Then what is the purpose of the inspector if they can be wrong all of the time with zero consequences?
You just want to blame someone who isn't you. That is a negative trait. Just so you know.
So you dont own the house dumbass.
If you are working for the homeowner, and dont own it, you need to be a licensed elec or apptrentice
AND YOU ARENT YOU FRICKING moron
SO STOP FRICKING BEING OBTUSE
>you need to be a licensed elec or apptrentice
who gives a shit? I'm not talking about that. I only care about liability.
Why wouldn't the liability be on the inspector? Everyone I know is telling me it's on the inspector
>Why wouldn't the liability be on the inspector?
>You just want to blame someone who isn't you. That is a negative trait. Just so you know.
>Everyone I know is telling me it's on the inspector
Everybody I ask says you suck at life. They can't be wrong because group polling supersedes research.
>Everyone I know is telling me it's on the inspector
Your problem here is you're relying on people not being stupid.
The inspector is the one who will give a shit.
That's the job. Catch shit like this.
Again really thought this shit was limited to quebec.
>but im nice, why arent i special enough for the rules to just be for everyone else? >Mommy told me i could do anything!
Canadian narcissism that runs thru the entire land. Interesting.
Your doing under the table work, for your under the table uncle, working without permits or documentation, trying to find every way to dodge responsibility and just get paid while handing off liability. Are you from Brampton? I'm leaning 70% likely you are from Brampton, with a 30% wildcard of Scarborough for this sort of scummy workmanship.
you're probably fine and overreacting
>What happens if the house burns down and it is discovered that it was an electrical fire?
then you're fricked, but it does not matter if you're an electrician or not, so better do good work that does not start a fire.
however if you work for a company or have you're own company the company will be liable in which case you file bankruptcy, or you have a insurance company that may will pay or may not.
You are allowed to do the electrical, yourself, in your own house.
If you, yourself, do not own the house, you are not to touch the fricking wiring unless you are licensed, or an aporentice with a licensed electrician
How you are continually trying to bend words and warp reality to justify not fitting either the homeowner, electrician, or apprentice role is mind blowing.
Stop.
Have someone qualified go re do what you did. You are allowed to watch. Thats it.
I guess let me rephrase a bit, i was way too general there.
You are allowed to do things like mount boxes.
You are not to touch a connection
No you cant fricking work for a homeowner on a house you dont own with credentials you dont have
Why are you so narcissistic you cannot comprehend this.
Why would anyone get a licensed elec if what you are doing was allowed?
You fricking moron. I thought only the queebs were like this
You're worrying too much. Don't be a moron and only do things your comfortable with.
Electrical is no joke though. It's not the kinda shit you say "this is probably right" and then leave. If you don't know how to wire it right, tell them that it's outside of your realm of expertise, and tell them to call someone else.
But it you know what you're doing and know how to do it safely than don't worry about the place burning down.
It's like women who don't fix anything because they think they'll break it. They're too stupid to know any better.
If you really think your work will burn down a house than maybe you shouldn't be doing it.
>T.non licensed electrician who does side work all the time.
>>T.non licensed electrician who does side work all the time.
are you not worried about liability?
No. Because I know I'm doing everything safely. I'd anything fails it'll be because it broke with use due to wear over time, or poor manufacturing. Not a bad install.
You arnt an electrician then. You don't have the certification.
Oh this argument again. I don't need a fricking piece of paper to tell me what I know how to do.
Where I'm from you cant do electrical work on a permanent job unless you have a license. They literally check that.
Also, if it's getting an electrical inspection you have no idea how to do anything to code it'll probably fail and you won't know how to fix it. Unless it's really really really really basic stuff where code is almost irrelevant.
If not addressed earlier, what happened will almost certainly come to light that the inspector realizes the the person who pulled the permit didnt do the work.
Which like, as an inspector inspecting wiring done by a permit pulled by a homeowner, its not hard to conceive they might... ask a question or two to make sure something like this didnt happen, an when it becomes obvious the homeowner has no clue about the thing you missed about code... hes gonna ask who did the work.
And no one is going to be able to be honest
Its gonna be easy to see you stooges from a mile away. This job is doomed to not pass till a qualified person does the work.
Homeowner is an idiot, you shouldnt be allowed to breed
>Could I get sued or held liable in any way?
Yes. That's why licensed electricians in your province are required to have 2 million in insurance.
https://esasafe.com/contractors/licensed-electrical-contractor/get-your-licence/#:~:text=Obtaining%20a%20license%20is%20mandatory,%2F05%20(Licensing%20Regulation).
this,
here a "licence" is handed out by the electric utility company and they require training and insurance and more.
i am an industrial electrician i troubleshoot machines that are big as 5 houses, with 100s of electrical cabinets, 200A motors, drives and plcs.
yet i am not allowed to install a socket in a residential house. in the factory the utility company has nothing to say because the factory has their own transformer.
if i frick up and torch the factory and it was not neglect or purpose i don't have to pay a penny (probably have to sweep floors afterwards).
if i wire a residential house and torch it i can file bankruptcy and have debt for the rest of my life.
If the homeowner is a licensed electrician, you could be considered to be working under his license.
You were working under your uncle.
The electrician is responsible for everything then.
If you don't frick anything up then it shouldn't matter because it won't burn down
Not sure about Canada, but here in USA you are not liable. Some guy hires you and tells you to do some stuff at his home, that's his liability. Especially if you don't have any contract or legal agreement here.
Now if the house did burn down it could come back to your uncle. But as far as that goes, you would need to do something pretty stupid to make an electrical fire.
Just don't ever leave any bare wires (except for ground). Always cap your wire ends. And when you connect wires always pre-twist them together, then put the cap on and do plenty of twists until it's very tight. Never have a ton of wire, nor a short or tight wire situation. Leave a few inches of loose wire in your junction and that's it. When it comes to inside the walls, always connect that wire to the middle area of the wood not close to a wall surface, so it's less likely it will get hit by a nail or screw later.
I've worked with my hands in USA for 10 years. I've done $20k renovations, and I don't even have a handyman license. I have no license and no insurance and I've never had an issue.
>If the house burns down, wouldn't he have every incentive to continue telling the insurance company that he alone did the work?
No, of course not. He'll be the first to tell the inspectors that you did the work and that it wasn't his idea to lie to the inspector. You are there to be thrown under the bus.
>Could I get sued or held liable in any way?
Yes. of course. You are responsible for your actions.
>wasn't his idea to lie to the inspector.
that doesn't matter, he still lied about it
he still pulled permits, got an inspection and got an insurance policy knowing full well the consequences of lying.
The responsibility should be on him.
>Just don't ever leave any bare wires (except for ground). Always cap your wire ends. And when you connect wires always pre-twist them together, then put the cap on and do plenty of twists until it's very tight. Never have a ton of wire, nor a short or tight wire situation. Leave a few inches of loose wire in your junction and that's it. When it comes to inside the walls, always connect that wire to the middle area of the wood not close to a wall surface, so it's less likely it will get hit by a nail or screw later.
Yeah I did all of these things. I made sure to do it properly.
I made sure to follow code and didn't do dumb shit like you are describing.
>You were working under your uncle.
>The electrician is responsible for everything then.
My uncle, the electrician never pulled permits, the homeowner pulled them and told the inspectors and insurance company that HE did the electrical work.
Dude don't worry so much.
This thread is full of fearful people. Just do a safe job and everything will be fine.
okay 🙂
>1. why did your uncle quit?
because the homeowner is fricking moronic
dont worry, I am quitting very soon
Don't you know? It's literally impossible to do a safe job without a license or permits or a city inspection.
>The responsibility should be on him.
>My actions are NOT my responsibility
>dont worry, I am quitting very soon
Yeah, just a few more paychecks and then you'll totally go clean...
No, you're going to do illegal shit until you discover you are responsible for the things you do. Because nothing you do is your fault. There is always someone else responsible for your actions in your mind.
This mentality of yours is part of why licensing is necessary. The inspector can't divine the truth magically in just a few moments while most of his visit will be spent listening to lies. "If he can't peer through all that and see everything I did wrong, it's his fault."
Or you can learn how to do your job safely. And prove you know with licensing. But then you'd have to put effort into what you do. Oh, and accept responsibility for your actions. So you'll never take that route.
>>The responsibility should be on him.
>>My actions are NOT my responsibility
I don't care about you complaining about ethics. I'm talking about legal liability. You are providing nothing to this thread.
Just admit you have no idea how the law works in this situation and just want to complain about someone making a little cash on the side.
>Or you can learn how to do your job safely.
I did do it safely. You don't have to be a licensed electrician to do the job safely.
> doing renovations
> find all sorts of code violations, mainly really lazy shit like not running wire through holes in joists and crossing under them
> random electrical boxes loose instead of attached to joists that power the light fixtures
I see these things and I go back and fix them but I always wonder what will happen if there is a fire one day. I'm not afraid to run a new outlet or breaker without pulling a permit but some of the other shit I've found, like poorly protected or dangling wire, is way scary
1. why did your uncle quit? this seems like a problem for you
2. working for the hour? contracting actually doing the work yourself PER HOUR???? atleast with your uncle you were recieving training and could work toward a license with the homeowner you get piss
3. you too much of a scardy cat to be contracting work yourself still, get more experiance, when you know you can handle it you will and you wont ask questions like these
am I liable?
Where is your evidence? Facts don't care about your feelings.
>Facts don't care about your feelings.
But anon, you already know the facts. They just aren't what you want to hear.
You know a license is required to do electrical work in houses you do not own.
You know you are working without that license.
Of course you can be held financially responsible for your actions.
Just because you "feel" your work is good enough, it doesn't mean you didn't frick up. If you did, it will be your fault for any problems associated with your work. You will be held financially responsible for your actions. Not those guys who told you it was totally legal to break the law. Not the guy paying you to break the law. They will be held responsible for their actions, not for yours. You will be responsible for yours. Repeating the same question after you get a correct answer won't absolve you of your liability. Pretending licensing is based on feelings instead of facts won't make licensing requirements disappear.
You have the facts. You just don't like the facts.
>But anon, you already know the facts.
I don't. You've never provided any. You've never linked a source or anything.
>You know a license is required to do electrical work in houses you do not own.
That's not true. You can do electrical work on a house if you live there, even if you are renting. I know I am not living there, but I just wanted to point that out.
>Of course you can be held financially responsible for your actions.
Why wouldn't the insurance company go after the inspector? The insurance companies only care about an inspection. The purpose of the inspection is to verify that the homeowner, a non-licensed electrician did the work properly. The insurance companies know the homeowner would be more likely to make mistakes and they lower that risk by requiring an inspection.
The homeowner has every incentive to continue telling the insurance company that he alone did the electrical work, because otherwise he may not get paid out because he would have lied. Both the homeowner and I are non-licensed electricians, how does this make an difference to the insurance company if I did some electrical work? The inspection is done regardless.
Also, I already told you I am no longer doing electrical work(he's insulating now) and I'm quitting in a few weeks anyway.
>, I already told you I am no longer doing electrical work
Proof? You never provided any. You never linked a source or anything.
It's fun acting like you.
I havent posted in this thread since about halfway through
My seething hatred for the OP is going to be taken out on autists everywhere.
If despite societies best efforts they are too narcissitic to even let a world exist where the rest of us can trust them, why bother taking care of any of theyre dumb spastic needs.
Worthless piece of shit.
>I say this because my uncle just quit on the homeowner and the homeowner is now paying me per hour to do random things, including electrical.
You are a little b***h
You work under your uncle, but wont stand in solidarity with him when a client is garbage?
You are the type of guy who would have sold out your family to the nazis for some shekels
Gay
Freelance contractor reporting in
Frick the insurance israelite
Frick the state license israelite
Do it right. Every time. Double check it. Triple check it. Test it. Verify and confirm it's proper operation
100$ worth of hand tools, a multimeter, a beeper, and an amp clamp is all that is needed.
What most people are lacking and the truly critical component here, is a working, practical, actual understanding of electricity.
At some point you need to sit down and take a crash course in electrical engineering.
Beyond that make good connections and be wary of jury-rigged circuits that some fool installed that are connected to the circuit you're working on.
When in doubt replace it. If wiring is old and there may be internal shorts, replace it. If the breaker is old and might be acting funky replace it.
If you're thorough and slow down and allow yourself 20 minutes of visualizing the circuit and double checking your amp ratings, there is no need to f*** around with any of that b*******.
Just do it. Do it right and actually know how electricity works and you'll be fine 100% of the time.
If you don't understand how electricity works, specifically AC, then you shouldn't put your hands on a wire in the first place.
This s*** can kill men.
>Understand what you're doing
>Do it
>It works
>Go home
This is a guaranteed formula for success.
If it doesn't work for you you probably don't know what you're doing.
The issue isn't the maintenance of liability insurance, it's you not knowing what you're doing. There is no substitute.
If you need to sit down and read 10 books on AC theory then do it. I did. That's what it takes.
Are you saying to not get liability insurance? No matter how good you are, shit can happen outside of your control. Are you also saying don't get licensed? So literally who is going to hire you. Anon seriously?
> Machine control box overheats and starts a fire
> My worker bumps into something expensive or ruins a piece of furniture/artwork
> Someone slips on a dropsheet or cable, even with signage they may still try to sue me
I do 200k+ in sales and spend $1500 on my insurance annually, it would be stupid not to.
Fellow ontario tradie. Your uncle better have his master license, and it must be up to date unless hes doing work for immediate family. You cant just be a certified electrician and take on jobs willy nilly in Ontario. He will need liability insurance as well. Either way if there is proven negligence on your part or his, he will be responsible regardless.
He needs to be checking your work and you need to be an electricial apprentice at least.
I'm this guy
It bears mentioning I'm in the us.
The greatest country in the world!
Yeehaw!
>I live in Ontario, Canada
OP is in my province, not in the US
>Either way if there is proven negligence on your part or his, he will be responsible regardless.
Really? Okay.
You're the first person to tell me this in this thread.
Can you elaborate? Why would it be on him and not me?
>and you need to be an electricial apprentice at least.
But I'm not an apprentice legally, I'm just a helper.
He's your boss right? He pays you? He's in charge? You are essentially a labourer and he is responsible for knowing you shouldn't be doing any electrical work, and anything he tells you to do he has to back up as the only electrician there. Unless it's proven you did something malicious he would likely be wholly responsible. When it comes to other things like not wearing appropriate PPE you would get a small fine, he would get a bigger one (even if he had the correct PPE). That's just how this works.
>how do I know this
I don't know 100%. I do know my friend (a self employed plumber) got a huge fine, written up, and shamed on some Ontario safety list online for having a non apprentice worker help him do plumbing. Safety guy showed up, did nothing to the worker, all the onus was on the owner of the company (my friend). Every time I google his company the second hit is this fine he got for 10k or wtv.