Let's settle this once and for all? Posted on May 9, 2023 by PrepHole Contributor Are steel plates a complete meme or are they better than nothing?
When shooting from a crouched position, you're exposing 5 arteries to spall. You might as well fill your carrier with tannerite glitter and confetti and hope to lighten everyone's mood
is spall worse than being shot?
Just like with being shot, it depends on where you're hit. Spall has a nasty habit of slicing people's arteries open.
Yes on both counts. Steel is heavier at the same level of protection. Most steel IIIs don't stop the faster common 5.56 rounds, and those that do just do it by being even heavier.
No steel plate is IV. less protection, more weight.
Who was killed by fragmentation off a steel plate?
>Spall has a nasty habit of slicing people's arteries open.
Show the class a single example of someone being injured by spall
Yes because it’ll show you for the poor fag you are and the gucci guyz will dab and na-na on you
They are at least very effective at stopping bullets, including repeat hits but the "better than nothing" assessment depends on how critical mobility is. Steel plates that are thick enough for rifle calibers are stupendously heavy. This weight and bulk is a huge burden to deal with while running around, getting shot at, digging trenches and doing everything else involved in actually fighting a war. It could very well still be worth the pain to wear them around if ceramic isn't available, but it will be a constant annoyance at the very least.
Spall is a bit overplayed with steel plates. Simple truck bed liner is usually sufficient for catching it, and even then the carrier they are worn in will largely get the job done. While still potentially dangerous, I'd take spall over an unprotected rifle hit any day.
The sheer weight and bulk of steel plates is more of an issue than spalling by far.
The "repeat hits" argument doesn't really hold up when the spall liner gets shredded after a few. Ceramic plates are better in every conceivable way.
Why don't they turn the upper lip to direct spall outwards? I geddit that people have forgotten the art of armormaking, but they can always look at museum pieces for ideas of how to make stuff.
Literally just cost. Steel armor is made for like half a penny. It's just industrial abrasion resistant steel cut out of stock.
M193 ball ammo out of God's Barrel Length (20") will punch holes in steel.
>grunt birthday party
Go get fiberglass cloth, contact cement layers to the surface and make fiberglass laminate on the surface, and there: you have eliminated 50% percent, give or take, of spalling.
Add ballistic nylon and alternate with fiberglass in layers for added anti-spalling.
>You might as well fill your carrier with tannerite
Kek. Western civilian suicide bombers?
spalling is a thing
even weight vests are fine
>everyone just pretended evidence to steel plates being great wasn't posted
Is it just AI replies at this point?
>steel plates being great wasn't posted
The fuck are you talking about?
that cheapshit weight vest steel stopped fucking everything short of a 50 cal lmao
13lb plate is untenable full stop, thats what SARVIPs weigh and those stop 12.7x108 API. You can feasibly put together a PC + Plates for the weight of ONE of those plates. If you are too retarded to budget and save 400 bux then you deserve exactly what you get.
Properly constructed ceramics with crack-arresting features can tank shitloads of damage, that guy was using a very high-end ceradyne model.
Cercom has had similar stuff since at least the early 2000's, they used to sell 4lb SAPIs they rated at 10+ hits of 7.62x51 M80 at 1" shot spacing.
Even towards the budget end, SAS today has cheap alumina IV flex panels that they have tested against 8 hits of 30-06 AP. BY DEFINITION, every III on the market already has to take 6 hits of M80. The "no multihit" meme should be dead and buried by now.
So still no ACTUAL, DOCUMENTED FIELD INJURY tied to BFD through a hard plate. Just let it die man, BFD is a meme on composites.
If it makes you feel better, Russia is ultra-paranoid about BFD and limits the GOST standard to 17mm. The only real way to hit that is by using a "climactic amortization pad" that adds a solid half-inch to an armor system. For NO ACTUAL BENEFIT, since we currently have a full-bore war with both sides having plates and no reports of BFD causing issues.
I forgot to add that bfd will hurt you somewhat but is unlikely to kill you or disable you unless you go waaay out of parameters of the armor rating. And I base that on an event where a cop took 4 shotgun slugs to the torso armor (probably kevlar but i do not know for sure) and lived (he was not fighting much after the second hit but he lived)
It's so unlikely to kill you that I am aware of only a single case of death from BFD in the last sixty years and that was soft armor against a 45-70.
I remember that, the kevlar panel got literally sucked into the wound like a cartoon. Never penetrated. Remember kids, soft armor versus full-bore rifles almost always loses.
13lbs is fine if you're fairly stationary
>that cheapshit weight vest steel stopped fucking everything short of a 50 cal lmao
It covers less and is way heavier than normal armor you retard. Obviously if you just ignore weight you can make fucking anything work.
>Obviously if you just ignore weight you can make fucking anything work.
I get it, just make a holes for head and arms in armor wedge from leopard and you'll have ultimate body armor, like pic rel just higher
both of those things can be true anon
Lead bullets can't melt steel plates.
garden gnomes did AR500.
>should you wear them if you can afford the cheapest of surplus SAPIs?
>If your choices are between AR500 and your three wolf moon tshirt: is taking some spall better than a bunch of sucking .30 cal chest wounds?
That's why they coat the shit with truck liner. Yes, I know if you shoot it 32572 times it'll wear it out and start to spall, but if you take 32572 rounds to the plate someone has probably shot you in the face by now. No one cares or has to.
That said, do everyone a favor and buy something that isn't steel plates. If you have nothing and find a set in an auctioned storage unit or your buddy hands you his old steel set he had before upgrading to ceramics, fucking wear it retard. Otherwise there's no reason at all.
Statistically speaking they increase survivability vs gunshots by 8-30% depending on circumstance (highest for police, lowest for combat troops) but only if there is immediate access/transportation to high quality medical facilities. Without that, they are not quantifiably reliable as protection from gunfire other than their NIJ rating
Really depends it's like wearing a seatbelt, sometimes it would save you, and sometimes it would be what gets you killed. Most shots to your torso will incapacitate you, if steel stops it but fragments, then there is a chance that the otherwise lethal shot could turn into a harmless graze on your arm or a killing blow to your jugular. I would say it's better than nothing personally, but Ceramic is lighter, about the same price, and won't spall like steel.
Copout answer but plates depend on the kind of combat you are expecting. In warfare, plates are 1000% neccecary as the vast majority of casualties come from shrapnel or other low velocity chunks of metal. If you're expecting 1 vs 1 Rittenhouse esque duels then not really, because even if the plate stops the bullet its going to break your sternum or ribs, and then the other guy can just finish you off. However in general, they've gotten so light that its better to have them than to not.
>because even if the plate stops the bullet its going to break your sternum or ribs
Can you post a medical report of someone with their sternum broken through a hard plate.
>Can you post a medical report of someone with their sternum broken through a hard plate.
He cant and wont, because it has never happened.
I would give poor retards less shit if they went for Militech RF2 plates in droves, it stops every CONUS threat at half the cost and weight of steel. Instead we get infinite double-down on "no this ar7600000 model finally stops the weakest rifle threat guys"
Its called behind-armor blunt trauma FYI and it can kill you hours after getting hit in the chest, to say nothing of the potential breaking bones
Sweet, so cadaver studies that do NOT align with field injuries. If your studies repeatedly show things not backed by field evidence, your studies are missing something.
This is so fucking retarded
>using 65-70year old bodies so you get bird bones.
>And explicitly choosing an all-poly plate so you get large deformations
>The injuries generally scaled with both
velocity and bone density. The specimens with
the lowest bone density generally had the greatest
From a review paper;
> Results: 50 sources were identified that included pertinent information relevant to this systematic review on BABT injuries. Typical injuries reported included skin contusion, laceration and penetration, rib fracture and contusions to lungs, kidneys, spleen and (rarely) the heart. No evidence of fatal injuries due to BABT was identified.
There literally has not been a known fatal injury from BABT resulting from small arms fire. Newtons is also an annoying metric to use here since it is tricky to directly relate to a specific bullet impact without knowing how the armor slows down the bullet and over what surface area but my gut feeling tells me 25000 Newton is a fuckton. For comparison, that is a sizeable van weighting down on just the cross section of a bullet. That's not too likely something associated with rifle bullet impacts on plates I feel, more like something from a fucking autocannon. You're overplaying the threat associated with BABT from small arms fire, we've seen people shoot themselves with an AK point blank without an issue and often especially in civillian life you'll come across much weaker calibers.
That's not to say steel plates like in the OP are great but BABT is not the thing you should worry about with them.
Worse than nothing.
- Heavy as fuck.
- Won't stop any AP rifle threat.
- Won't stop .223/5.56" from a 16"+ barrel, which is literally the most common rifle threat in America.
- "Spall," ricochets, etc.
- As an infantryman, you're infinitely better off with soft armor + room in your pack for other equipment.
- If you're a door-kicker, you should get something better.
>Won't stop .223/5.56" from a 16"+ barrel
someone can't into NIJ ratings.
You retarded? The NIJ doesn't have a rating to encompass M193 and similar threats, and the steel armor companies have been fighting tooth and nail to prevent 0101.07 from being implemented.
20+ inch barrel. Long ARs are based, but sadly most people are not.
This is normal:
>"Noooooo! That's not a fair hit they changed their composition it'll protect against M193 now guize foreal!
>I predict the cope
>He posts the cope
>evidence is cope
I dont know what you want moron, you posted a video and I posted a video. Two different armors of different thickness and different weight performing differently. What the fuck is your problem?
I love me 20"
Its been settled but youre a fucking ignorant stubborn stupid piece of shit.
stop being poor
(Verification not required.)
The cheapest, shadiest ceramic and UHMWPE solutions beat steel on
Which really makes it questionable what the point of steel is under any circumstances
When I said price I meant production cost sorry. Steel armor is basically companies selling off loads of cheap Abrasion Resistant steel normally used to make shit for industrial applications.
Aren't any companies making plates out of armor grade (MIL-A-41600) steel?
I don't know, maybe? I doubt it.
Steel with a spall liner? Heavy but can tank loads of rounds in a small area without fail. Without? I'd be hesitant to wear it.
steel is better than nothing but ceramic and UHMWPE shit on it and you shouldn't ever buy steel
I don't think it's clear that steel is better than nothing.
A steel plate with spall liner can weigh 9.5 fucking pounds, each! With even the lightest carrier, that's more than twenty pounds of weight. And all you're getting in exchange is ultra-shitty "protection" which will make you slower, less accurate, more stressed, and ultimately deader.
just wear the front then
10lbs isn't that much
Or you could just wear the cheapest Chinese all-poly plates and get better protection, front and back, at half the weight of a steel front plate.
we will never settle it once and for all. the dust never settles. you newfags will continue to attempt to justify steel plates until the end of time. have a nice day.
Did anyone here suggest using steel plates over ceramic or even poly?
I had a level III steel plate laying around so I use it for back protection with ceramic in the front. I feel fragmentation isn't as big of a deal on a back plate and it's very thin which is nice if you're wearing a backpack or sitting in a car.
they dont work reliably against 5.56 so why bother?
Spall destroying your face is a slightly better alternative to taking a round in the chest, yes.
Forgot attachment. See picrel.
> Spall destroying your face is a slightly better alternative to taking a round in the chest, yes.
But only slightly.
FYI AR500 plates bought from AR500armor.com are mystery meat steel
>whatever pakistan has in cheap lots that months
and not actual AR500 ASTM steel
have fun with that pulmonary embolism
Experimental data that doesn't align with real-world injuries is useless.
Pigs die in a blast tube, somebody call the press we cracked BFD!
But then we have thousands of shots on plates in Iraq and Afghanistan and ZERO fatalities from this phenomenon. Inb4 "actually they all got hyper-specific care that nobody talks about or recorded"
that's fragmentation, not spall
words mean things. also, steel plates have both frag and spall to deal with and ceramic doesn't lol
Yes but why nobody just sheath the steel in a kevalr pocket? Even a thin layer would contain all potential fragments with essentially no damage. Why the fucking rhino bed-liner shit that falls apart after a dozen hits? It would probably be cheaper.
Literally production cost. There are about a billion ways you could mitigate or remove the risk of injury through fragmentation, but steel armor is made for like half a penny. It's just Abrasion Resistant steel (that's what the AR stands for) used for dozer blades and shit.
>Literally production cost
Given that you can get surplus Kevlar for 25 bucks a panel and AR500 already uses shit steel I can't see anybody objecting to a Kevlar pocket that could stop any fragments being surplus shit. Then again I already did it myself as well as creating a Kevlar kilt out of 6 panels I cut down. It's really just a bullshit project of course, wearing as much armor as what I constructed would be hot as shit for 1/3 of the year and other than larping as the terminator and taking out a state police barracks there isn't really an application for it.
Depth in ballistics gel?
Ballostic masks make more sense
that's why the gunner on the side of a chopper wears them
So the shortcomings are:
1) They are fairly heavy, often slightly heavier than equivalent plates
2) They can spall but frankly this is only for gays too stupid to mitigate it. If you could get the best plates without any spall liner you could go to bulletproofme and purchase the kevlar insert of an old cop vest and sew it into the form of sleeve to accept the plate. This essentially makes spall irrelevant as well as increasing its protective qualities slightly so much so that I have no idea why there isn't a commercial option for this.
3) Fast rounds with hard cores will go through it. The best civilian composite vests can stop those rounds, and esapi definitely will. AR 600 and 650 plates can resist a lot but .30-06 AP or AP4 does go through all of them that I've seen.
The advantages of steel are:
1) it is generally thinner for the same protection as a composite plate. Now for something like a plate for your shoulder, thigh, or shin that might be what you need to be able to move around. Though I'm sure some gays around here will scoff at the very idea of armoring your extremities.
2) I will stop some massive rounds if they are full metal jacket. Shitty steel plates will stop 50 BMG with no hard cores while they will smash through several composite plates that would stop smaller faster rounds that put holes in that same steel plate.
3) Though it does degrade after being struck it doesn't degrade as fast as some vests that rely on ceramics or other ridged components. Though if you are being shot that much I question what the fuck you are doing.
4) Essentially drop safe and temperature safe under any reasonable conditions.
Are steel plates worth it? No in my opinion they are not worth it for plates that will be protecting your torso except maybe for side plates if you really need them to be thin. They may be worth it for your extremities because they are thinner and because plates on your limbs will be banged around.
So, if one were to conceivably make an old-school reiter-style three-quarters (or thereabouts) armor, they should go for a metal-faced composite front/back (and corresponding dick/butt) plates, with metal shoulder/thigh/etc. guards (and a metal gorget/bevor with rolled edges, to protect against fragmentation/spalling). Everything backed with that special snowflake cellular foam material that's supposed to greatly reduce BABT.
If you have a kevlar pocket containing the plates I'd assume you don't need spall protection at all unless you are taking an obscene amount of hits from BMG rounds or something with enough mass that even the fragments rip through the kevlar.
There is this https://www.ade.pt/product/ballistic-mandible/ which you could attach to an ECH with a bit of effort and a bench vise, but since it has no breaths in it and cannot I assume it won't be very useful.
>I will stop some massive rounds if they are full metal jacket. Shitty steel plates will stop 50 BMG with no hard cores while they will smash through several composite plates that would stop smaller faster rounds that put holes in that same steel plate.
This is completely inconsistent, if it's even true at all.
Demolition ranch Matt shot steel armor with FMJ BMG and it punched through one plate. FMJ BMG against level IV ceramics will sometimes penetrate one plate, and sometimes be stopped dead in a single plate. Matt fired a 50 AP at three damaged ceramic plates, and the bullet stopped in the third.
Not to mention moving up to M33 ball obliterates steel outright, to say nothing of actual AP loadings.
Another thing is M193 isnt the limit for FMJ, 22-250, 243, any number of hunting cartridges are WAY above the velocity limit for steel to handle.
Plain .270 Winchester will demolish steel armor, even at range.
>says its a level 3 plate
>says "This significantly exceeds the rating for this plate"
>LOOK? IT WENT THROUGH! IT'S SHIT!
Just about every ceramic or all-poly "level III" plate will stop .270 Winchester.
There are A LOT of common rifle threats that so-called "level III" steel armor won't reliably stop. Steel rifle plates are retarded, especially if you live in a rural area.
what the other guy said is pretty spot-on, composites and full-poly stops hunting calibers with ease.
Aiming to just stop .308 is fucking retarded when higher-velocity threats are everywhere, and the armor that stops them weighs half as much for the same price.
Steel plates are not a complete meme but should be limited in their use.
Besides cost, the other advantage is the longer shelf life of steel.
If you plan to be very mobile, don't go with steel.
If you plan to be defending a location, it's worth considering.
ALL equipment is a series of compromoses don't use it in ways that it is unsuited to.
I have a set of 500s and a Mosin Nagant 91/30 set aside in case I have to equipment someone who wasn't at all prepared but has skills, talents or knowledge that I require.
I don't understand why composite armor systems never utilize steel. You could have a thin face hardened steel plate meant to take the edge off of incoming rounds and outright stop lesser rounds without compromizing the layers behind it, then some layer of flexible material like the plastics of the ECH which I've seen stop .308 from point blank on its own, then some kind of ceramic, then another layer of flexible material to encapsulate anything that gets trough. Why don't we see steel's unique properites married with those of other materials to make an armor package more resistant than any of the component parts would be alone? For that matter why don't we see plate carriers which are make from ballistic materials that could add a bit more protection and coverage for the same weight? It seems to me the people would be willing to pay 25% more for such systems if they really did offer more protection.
It may have to do with the chemistry.
Perhaps it doesn't bond well?
I'm a welder, it a chemist.
AR500 actually makes a III+ steel/UHMWPE backed composite plate. It's ridiculously expensive and a little heavy but does stop M193 and even M855 at reasonable velocities (about 3k fps). The main issue is that the steel strike face is super thin and isn't really multi-hit; anything faster than say a pistol round will punch through it and hit the PE beneath, albeit slowed down enough that even M855 won't normally pen the PE backer. You won't get fragmentation because it's so thin though; there's really no benefit over ceramic unless you really, REALLY want a steel strike face.
Because that's what ceramics already do better, save for the part about shrugging off small hits. They deform and break up the projectile so that the backer of polyethylene can absorb and distribute the energy. Steel would be significantly heavier to maintain the protection level of ceramics.
Both? Spall won't kill you but just pay like 25% more for better protection, lighter weight, and not getting a steel splinter in your cheek if you have to use it. The only reason to use steel armor is if you are so limited in budget that the price of ceramic is impossible to meet.
so what are the better brands for lvl 4 ceramics?
You fuckers conveniently forget newtons third law. If a bullet fired from a standard rifle could break your ribs/sternum from impacting a plate that's 10"x12" or SAPI sized, then the 2"x5" buttstock would break/dislocate your arm.
For what it's worth steel plates suck buy ceramic you fucking poorfag scrubs.
>For what it's worth steel plates suck buy ceramic you fucking poorfag scrubs.
Then what would you suggest shitter
Have an infographic I provided some minor assistance with. Its a decent enough stepping off point for more research with some very solid reccomends outside that shitass Highcom 4s17m
Adept makes a titanium/poly plate that whips the ass off this pale imitation, the titanium intentionally plugs to spread load over more poly. Come to think of it, CATI and Tencate have similar steel/poly plates. I wouldnt give the snakes at AR500 a fucking dime.
Exactly. It's basically equivalent to a Chinesium III+ ceramic plate at five times the price for MUH STEEL types, not worth a second glance really.
Also, Botach ceramic III+ and IVs aren't terrible for the price; they're Chinesium but seem to stop what the label says, are decent enough weight/drop-tolerance wise, and are cheap enough at like $140 each to fit even the lowest budget. Biggest downside is the polyurea coating stinking like hell basically forever.
Deformation of the armor concentrates the "impact area" mostly thorwards the middle of the backface deformation which compared to the plate is smoll,
also the weight of the gun and the "relatively" slow push of the expanding gasses slows down the energy transfer so your body actually has time to compress and move with the buttstock. , also your hands are another contact area.
All that Meaning that energy of the recoil is about the same but peak force(ps)of the recoil is much lower then that of the bullet (also preassures on a certan are are different) . One way to simulate (not perfectly, multiple factors involved, the weight and buildup of preassure is still at play) is to put a small round metal buttstock with a ball like metal back end, hold it flimsily infront of your body ,fire and let it hit you. Take a punch and a push example , energy of the punch is lower i think, forces involved are vastly different to the point that a push shouldnt harm you directly but a punch should leave a bruse.
>Are steel plates a complete meme
Yes. You can buy lvl iv composite for $100 that mogs the fuck out of steel.
I feel like there are a couple of acceptable steel plates, I thought I remembered some ar1000 plate and even weirder stuff in an old infographic.
Of course avoid ar500 brand stuff like the plague, but maybe some of the other stuff is passable.
The problem with the nicer steel arnor is it's still heavy, pretty sure it's not lvl 4, and you can get lighter lvl 4 ceramic for fairly cheap nowadays.
I really wish steel plates had flared collars and armpits like the old Spanish breastplates had for shattered arrows.
Is there even BN 1000 steel or does that name have nothing to do with hardness?
Steel likely wont be viable for bodyarmor considering that they are heavy compared to ceramic , cover very little (true for all plates) and you are unlikely to take a 4-10 round burst exclusively to the chest.
There is one ecception to the last situation.
He took 10 rounds to the ceramic plate which it stopped (ak's so 762x39 and prolly 5.45) and 17 to the rest of his body. Still ceramic did just fine in that situation. Your chances of taking a 308 burst or a 30 06 ap burst like that is almost nill
I think that is the goy who got shot, some pics he is bearded , bald, young ecc. And i really cant tell if it is the same guy so I dunno if that is the right pic but seems like it considering he seems shot up
Tbh, if you're taking bursts of .308 or 30-06, then your problems are only just beginning.
literally a trash can lid is better than nothing, steel plates work
ceramic microballs are the future
Level III plates are the king of manlets and are a dumb compromise for cowards.
Go II or IV.
gay and played out. nobody cares about your protection against shitty wwii ap. if your armor can't stop modern tungsten rounds it may as well be III+
>Can't stop modern tungsten rounds
Imagine how thick steel plates would need to be to match the performance of those.
> M-my thirty pound steel plate is just as good, and it's multi hit!
Three times as thick as regular steel plates, I would wager.
i used to think k was smart...1st time here in along time. did bunch of research and waiting long time., decided on a spartan ar550 (3+) achilles carrier. iraqverteran8888 did a lot of tests on them. i aint meeting anyone with 30 06/ it will stop green 556 and ak food. ant spalling pouch and coating. i swear you guys just like to shit post. also have trauma pads for behind plate to help with blunt trauma. got a good deal too.
It was many moons ago PrepHole actually knew things about guns, back when nuggets were $75, now just nogunz who think they know more than anyone else after watching gun tubers for a few weeks.
i bought my nugget at big 5 for 79 bucks, i miss the surplus ammo. those were good times anon. we didnt know how good we had it...
You never know the good times until they’re gone. but I’ll tell you what, we’re currently in the good old days of ARs. Stock up on $450 poverty PSAs while you can.
>heavier, for worse protection
>Not even cheaper
lol what a retard.
just shoot prone bro
>better than nothing
Yeah, some AR500 plates coated with rhino liner is better than your only protection being a stained Dark Side of the Moon tshirt. Of course you should just practice some fiscal responsibility and save up for ceramics instead
Honestly you can get decent ceramic III+/IV for cheaper than the most shilled AR500 III plates. It's not even fiscal responsibility, it's called being able to use Google and read reviews properly.
A single Spartan steel plate runs from
80$ 8x10in AR500 single curve no coat to
186$ 11x14in AR550 triple curve and coated
Considering Botachs, RMA, and Hescos run from 150 to 200 there really is no point in steel. However Rural King steel targets are cheap.
>10x12 full-coat ar550 plate cost 180 bucks
This is fucking unreal, you can buy passed-over SOCOM TSAs for the exact same price. I wanna hear how anybody defends that
> some AR500 plates coated with rhino liner is better than your only protection being a stained Dark Side of the Moon tshirt
Not even sure that's true. If you need to be mobile, steel plates could get you killed faster.