I unironically believe this is a major factor in how NATO has been titrating aid and gradually sending new classes of weapon systems. Not the only factor, but a big one.
Part of it is that the Ukranian resistance is now the core of a newly forged national identity. Different factions and regions suddenly have a lot more in common with each other, and the sense of patriotism has helped with a lot of things - one example is anticorruption efforts.
The other part is that after initial attempts to give Putin an offramp back to the 2014 status quo, he doubled down. From the standpoint of the West, that means Russian imperial ambitions need to be unequivocally stubbed out, and that factors into hammering the lesson home to RF recidivists who otherwise might go for the cope and pull this kind of stunt again.
US learned it’s lesson in Vietnam and Afghanistan.
If you fight for the side you want to win, they’ll never be confident to fight without you. It’s the ‘teach a man to fish’ mentality shift of the US foreign policy.
Why not just send retired American F-16 pilots? There is nothing illegal about that. They're volunteers. It'd be the Fighting Tigers 2.0.
>teach a man to fish
Yep
On top of that Ukraine is really suitable operate F16s since they have already a ton of trained MIG/SU pilots that sit on their asses since Ukraine lacks spare planes
Retraining to F16 those already trained and experienced pilot, from a country that has Airforce command structures present, takes way less time than having to train someone from zero, from a country that had no air capabilities at all before.
The retired pilots can do that if their own accord, but it isn't a good idea for the US to actively send any kind of personal over there to openly operate weapons and aircraft. Not to mention like
US learned it’s lesson in Vietnam and Afghanistan.
If you fight for the side you want to win, they’ll never be confident to fight without you. It’s the ‘teach a man to fish’ mentality shift of the US foreign policy.
already posted, the US found out that it's much better to teach and steer whatever side they support in the right direction rather than just do the jobs themselves and watch everything go to hell when they let said side take over with hardly any experience in operating the equipment in an effective way.
Yeah I’m sure there’s plenty of retired American fighter pilots foaming at the mouth to leave their comfy pensions and airline pilot jobs behind to risk getting shot down, killed, or captured by vatnigs over stupid slavic land grab war #72.
Get fucking real.
Most retired military pilots become civilian pilots and get paid more than most western Euros. You think they wanna trade that just to die in a slavic banana republic and have endless vatnig threads posting their fiery wreck.
this x1000.
Ukraine would have been fucked if trump was in charge.
>state department orange man chud operatives
The war would never have happened and our recruiting numbers would have remained stable. You can dispute the first point and I'd call that fair to debate. The second, literally everyone here knows is a fact.
Waiting for the rains to pass
https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/Donetsk+Donetsk+Ukraine
Attacking through mud is something only brainless ziggers do
>What would happen after Ukraine get F-16's?
PGM spam with NATO munitions that eternally buckbreaks Russians so bad that they start telling folktales of it
The funniest part of this is the people on the ground that survived knew they were being hit by artillery and Apache, but they had no clue everything else was also hitting them.
The A-10 getting sent in to mop up Russians in Ukraine would be so fucking kino. The old girl finally getting to complete her intended mission before retirement.
I will never forgive Biden for not letting me see a pack of A10s go hogwild on that stalled Russian column. Imagine vatnik highway of death filmed by drones
>But maybe we'll see something interesting when they push for Crimea.
Afaik the Crimean causeway is the only area where nukes would have actual tactical battlefield value. So if Putin is going to use nukes anywhere or at any time during this war it will be there. Funnily enough Ukraine can avoid that and just squeeze him all day by Storm Shadowing the Kerch bridge and laying siege to Crimea, without ever needing to cross the causeway anyway.
Anon they likely would have been shot down if we're being completely honest. As cool as it would have been to see Highway to Vatmoron hell, they cant compete against Russian AA and their fighter aircraft. F-16s are far more versatile and will do considerably more damage to Russia in the long run.
In a normal conflict yeah, but in the clownworld conflict of the first two weeks TB-2s were bombing Buk and Pantsir with impunity because they didn't turn their own IADS on
>A10s go hogwild on that stalled Russian column
if the ukrainian air force got decimated by AA, what makes you think a 400 mph fat plane would last longer than 30 seconds
>Ukraine will not receive them until the end of the year
F-16 is a go precisely because the pilots are trained. Wait, you thought they were idling this entire time? Lmao.
>very old
moron the F-16 is still being built to this day, they only JUST released the next modernization block
that's like saying the M1 Abrams is a very old tank because it was first built in 1979
It's not a legal concern, it's a political one. American government generally does not want American men fighting in Ukraine. They will train Ukranians, but not fight Russians directly
It's all nato. The less confrontation the better, hence proxy war.
[...]
Nice!
Let me guess, you also think America will go broke providing them, providing them is unnecessarily weakening our ability to defend the US, and it's further proof that the democrats are using Ukraine to line their pockets?
The limiting factor is amount of planes not amount of volunteers. Europeans all have tiny airforces compared to the U.S. Ukraine asked for Finland's F/A-18s and they said "fuck no, we already don't have enough planes to protect ourselves as it is." Pilots are useless without planes
It's not a legal concern, it's a political one. American government generally does not want American men fighting in Ukraine. They will train Ukranians, but not fight Russians directly
There was this american guy Dan Hampton, said he would.
Because western nations are not formally in a war, therefore their actions are governed by peacetime institutional oversight. Such oversight prevents underhanded tactics that fit the homo sovieticus and the homo wumaoticus more.
While it would be fucking kino if congress wrote Letters of Marque and Reprisal to allow American pilots slap russki shit, it wouldn't go down well in front of the rest of the world.
First that was still a war act, it was just a way to let private actors fight in the war. Also in all seriousness it's more that it was found to be something whose age passed a long time ago. Privateers tended to behave like shit, not all of them, but lots, and it doesn't matter to anyone else if they're not "officially" military, they'd be perceived as part of the forces of whatever country issued the authorization (with good reason). So whatever bad shit they did would go right back to the country in question, and also they were less and less effective in the face of ever more advanced actual state armies.
I mean shit anon, you can see this right fucking now in this very war: WAGNER. It's a private organization permitted by the Russian state to go do war shit for profit. Nobody thinks "oh wagner tortured a bunch of POWs to death haha nothing to do with Russia though!"
>we can't have flying tigers ii: amraam boogaloo because anon is scared they're going to go rogue and bomb donetsk children
boo I say, free the flying tigers. Issue a Letter of Marque authorizing US private aggressor squadrons to contract with Kyiv as a private air security services corporation, under Kyiv's UN charter right to collective and self defense
>all very legal you see :^)
That's all very eastern and legalistic, which isn't the way The West does things. Shit like that is exactly from the Russki playbook.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
You keep repeating this and people keep telling you it's a proud American tradition and you keep not listening. America has always bent the rules to spread freedom and firepower.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Sure, but that was under wartime powers and it was a different time. A flying tiger-esque ruse would soon be outed by someone.
Because the moment that US servicemen end up coming home in a coffin, which will happen since it is a war and while the Russians are losing, people do die, there would be some pretty intense political backlash that would make continued support for Ukraine less of a political freebie and bipartisan thing. The average US citizen doesn't give a fuck about sending military aid in the form of money and weapons, soldiers dying always make it harder to keep the status quo, and so it's much easier for the US to let Ukraine do the dying while the West bankrolls the vatnik extermination program.
Nice!
Let me guess, you also think America will go broke providing them, providing them is unnecessarily weakening our ability to defend the US, and it's further proof that the democrats are using Ukraine to line their pockets?
No, this is literally the best possible soundtrack for a flock of F-16s appearing over the horizon. Plays when Yellow Squadron's superior ace aircrafts turn up. It was built for this moment
No, this is literally the best possible soundtrack for a flock of F-16s appearing over the horizon. Plays when Yellow Squadron's superior ace aircrafts turn up. It was built for this moment
No, this is literally the best possible soundtrack for a flock of F-16s appearing over the horizon. Plays when Yellow Squadron's superior ace aircrafts turn up. It was built for this moment
For me it's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLZH4z6OdsU
https://i.imgur.com/U69Mjnk.jpg
Pacta sunt servanda, as they say in the collective West. Terms will be fulfilled and the contract will be closed. HATO bandits in the sky...
Naaah, you guys got it all wrong, here, I got you:
Pacta sunt servanda, as they say in the collective West. Terms will be fulfilled and the contract will be closed. HATO bandits in the sky...
For me it's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLZH4z6OdsU
No, this is literally the best possible soundtrack for a flock of F-16s appearing over the horizon. Plays when Yellow Squadron's superior ace aircrafts turn up. It was built for this moment
I'm going to be honest, I think the originals are better. I think the additions detract slightly more often than they improve. It seems like they were intent on making sure there were never sections without something new added, without consideration for how some of those elements would fit.
>In the event that the Ukrainian counteroffensive proves futile, the F-16s may become useless in the future.
This sentence makes no sense. Wether the enxt ukrainian offensive succeeds or not is effectively immaterial. Ukraine enjoys excellent morale, a deep manpower pool an deffectively unlimited funding, equipment and supplies from the west. The war has alreadys been decided, the only question remaining is how long it will take the Ukrainians to systematically grind the Russian Army into dust. Russia's chance of winning this war are on the same level as that of Imperial Japan winning the Pacific War after Midway.
>Russia's chance of winning this war are on the same level as that of Imperial Japan winning the Pacific War after Midway
They're on the same level of Russia's chances of winning the Russo-Japanese war after Tsushima
>Ukraine enjoys excellent morale, a deep manpower pool
You mean 18 year old students and old grandpas who get beaten on the streets by police officers for refusing to go to the draft centers and able-bodied men who dress up as women and try to cross the border with Moldavia to escape the meat grinder?
>The latest blocks of F-16
They are getting the original stock F-16s that went to Belgium, Denmark, and Netherlands. I'm sure they've got that midlife update and some point but they aren't gonna be as tricked out as the fresh ones.
They're likely not getting the absolute latest blocks unless Uncle Sam empties the petty cash drawer. Last I checked, we didn't know which ones they'll be getting. I'm pretty confident they'll get both Bs and Cs though and the C's have a 1.2 RCS. The Su-57 was hoping for a 0.1 to 1 RCS. KEK
>hey're likely not getting the absolute latest blocks
Did you just not read the post you are replying to? They are getting some of the first F16s ever made. As, not Cs
different anon, but from what I can read the nehtlerands have block 15 and 20.
So if they get the 15, that's a late 80's variant, right? It sounds like their block 20's are heavily upgraded but I doubt they'll get the latest shit.
Still, it's new enough to get a better radar and AMRAAMS, HARMs and mavericks, data link, and ECM pods. Definitely shits on a MiG-29
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yes, that is correct, F-16As - likely upgraded but not as good as the newest ones with the latest bells and whistles...the exact same point stated here
>The latest blocks of F-16
They are getting the original stock F-16s that went to Belgium, Denmark, and Netherlands. I'm sure they've got that midlife update and some point but they aren't gonna be as tricked out as the fresh ones.
two hours ago.
Bonus: That MLU was the midlife update I mentioned in case you were wondering.
None have been committed yet as far as I know. Just speculation.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Not speculation, declaration of intent from the PM of the UK.
https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1659599358797443073
Netherlands and I think Denmark has already expressed willingness they were just waiting on the okay from the USA (which they just got). Speculation would be on the timetable and quantity which I welcome.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The timetable is going to be well over a year for the procurement process alone. Thats barring any major politicking and flip flopping
Then the logistical effort of getting them to ukraine with the associated logistical and maintainence train will be even longer
Also, where exactly is ukraine planning on operating these planes out of?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The timetable is going to be well over a year for the procurement process alone
Doubtful.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>having to deal with multiple different euro countries giving away their f16s >not going to involve a massive amount of deals, background politics both domestic and international
Youre very naive. The uk doesnt just snap its fingers and make the planes appear, unless theyre planning on depleting the entirety of their own stock
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Uk doesnt even have f16s
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Theyre partnered with the netherlands which does, the uk not having them just further reinforces my point. This is going to be very complicated. Think the political mess it took to get the western tanks to ukraine x10
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Well, the previous weapons exports openeded the table so I dont really see if there is that much halting as with there was with leos
They want to send the outdated f16s. Good pal points awaits. And they would be scrap metal anyways, outdated planes. Next they buy F35s and such
Do they have the range to hit them well across the border? I though Russians have only been launching cruise missiles while safely above their own airspace?
>the F-16s are very old fighters >easy prey for Russian air defenses, in particular the S-400, which are still quite new >Meanwhile the russian wunderwaffe (in service since 2017) was shot down by an AA system introduced in the '80s
I think the ukies will do just fine
Let's be honest: refit T-62s are very old tanks that, although not inferior to Ukrainian IFVs, are still very easy prey for Ukrainian ATGMs, in particular the Javelin, which are still quite new and superior to many other ATGM systems. Moreover, it is possible that Russia will not receive them until the end of the year, because the minimum training time even for passable tankers is 6 days. In the event that the Russian counteroffensive proves non-existant, the T-62s may become useless in the future. Also, the tanks are a step toward escalating the conflict, I'm not sure that's what the Russians need. In addition, the question of the number of possible refitted tanks is important. If there will be only 30-40 of them, then they will not show anything on the battlefield, Russia will flap them like sunflower seeds. The Russians should think it over before committing such reckless acts. In the West there is a saying: fuck around and find out. Russian rats should know this already.
It's not about the plane but more the munitions stockpile it unlocks. America is air force focused. This means there is a much bigger stockpile of say... JDAMs than HIMARS guided missiles (I guess). Think of it more like unlocking huge reserves of JDAMS to add to HIMARS, AIM-120 to add to SAMs, and on top of that unlocking completely new capabilities like low observable glide bombs or cruise missiles if that happens. Of course the fact that it flies is huge too. People underestimate the reaction mobility advantage and the physics advantage of stuff you drop having the potential energy of 30k feet. Even if they use them very conservatively it will help.
So what advantage does this plane have over Russian Air defense? Will they be flying low like the ones Ukraine already have? What make them more advantageous than the polish ones they've recently receive, which also carries NATO munitions?
HARM is actually plugged in properly and works in all three modes. Glossing over things, HARM can >use it's seeker to go hot off the rail and fire at targets of opportunity >use a pre-planned GPS flight path and only start seeking radar in the terminal approach >tie into the plane's RWR and fuck up whoever is stupid enough to lock you
The way HARM is used in Ukraine is probably the second and maybe the first, but they can't use the third mode because Russian RWRs are shit and won't talk to HARM.
Same goes for AMRAAM. You *might* be able to fire it pitbull off a MiG 29, but that's using it really poorly. An F-16 can take any standard NATO pylon store and use it to it's full capability as opposed to being nigrigged to an iPad.
For the last six months we have heard: >yes T-55s are old but they are great tanks and more than a match than anything in the HATO arsenal!
Now it's: >really, F-16 is such an old plane and russian air defence will have absolutely no problems with shooting them down
I don't understand how vatnik brains don't explode under the pressure of all the cognitive dissonance they keep in there.
When your culture is entirely dependent on knowing your leaders are lying, but nobody speaking up unless they want to spend 10-15 in an unheated cell, you either rewire your brain go ignore it or you go mad.
Probably not well, and it is unlikely that the function the same way. The missile has to communicate with the Soviet avionics and that probably would take many months to retrofit.
No, definitely not. HARMs have seeker heads that are able to provide some targeting data and act semi autonomously like a Sidewinder, but the real winner of the Viper HARM deployment is the HARM targeting system. Electronic warfare pod that turns the HARM into a fucking beast.
The HARM integration was a rush job and presumably the Ukrainians can only fire the HARMs in their self guiding mode.
F-16s are already capable of firing just about everything in NATO inventory as standard, which means they can link their sensors to western precision munitions. Not to mention, there's a hell of a lot more F-16s and F-16 parts than MiG-29s, and even bargain bin surplus F-16s from NATO members are light years ahead of what Ukraine currently has access to.
>and the suHispanicion that AIM-120s are also integrated
proof? firing a GPS guided munition preprogrammed on the ground is not the same thing as launching an AMRAAM that wants to talk to the plane's radar
if they have AIM-120s they are firing them in pitbull mode which really nullifies them. They still will get pushed by russkies befoe they can fire them.
when i look at the map like a video game and i imagine what the F-16s can do. i'd start using them in the places where RU has the least air defense and use them as part of a push in those areas. it's pretty obvious on my map.
>Ukraine biggest problem in their air war was: too little planes and too old planes compared to the russian airforce.
But how does that solve the issue? Say an F-16 takes off and wants to operate in Russian defended airspace. It's prospects are as grim as the current batch of MiGs and Sukhois. It adds no additional capability, except more airframes to maybe try to launch a few sorties at a time.
Maintaining those Soviet airframes, even the donated ones, isn't going to be possible long-term anon. By transitioning the Ukrainians to one of the most numerous and widely used combat aircraft the west makes it possible to keep the Ukrainian Air Forces intact and operating even in a long war. The extra sorties will also certainly help.
Are you just being wilfully retarded or what? With F-16s the ukrainains get access to much longer ranger air to air missiles. Weapons that Ukrainian pilots don't actually have to guide all the way to their targets. Russians have this capability already and it's a genuine major problem for the ukrainians. With F-16s the ukrianians can field munitions that match the russian capability, and easily exceed it depending on what the west feels like giving them. My guy, F-16s are going to be a major capability upgrade for ukraine no matter how many they actually acquire from the west.
moron what the fuck are you talking about? A vaguely up to date F-16 gives the Ukies Fox-3 missiles that can finally enable them to actually fight against russian jets. Also it gives them a platform that can actually use HARMs properly. Yes, Russian airspace is massively denied, but the difference between early generation Russian Fox-1 missiles and AIM120Cs, analogue radar versus a proper datalink, proper navigation and situational awareness... it's a big upgrade. It at least gives them another means for shooting down cruise missiles
>So how does having more shells solve any issue? It adds no additional capability, except more shells to maybe try to launch a few barrages at a time.
Maybe think about sustainment?
The F-16s aren't being sent to dogfight other Russian SUs or MiGs. They're being sent for the added capability of long-range missiles that can be launched from those platforms.
the F-16A's and MLU's won't out-BVR Flankers
we're talking about a fighter with a relatively old pulse doppler radar going up against jets with PESA and maybe even AESA radars if the russians decide to bring in the Su-57, the F-16 is at a pretty major disadvantage against those.
>the F-16A's and MLU's won't out-BVR Flankers
Can you walk me through this? The Ibris-E is a notorious underperformer (and not even a "true" PESA). Meanwhile I assume the eurocucks are gonna hand over the Pantera pods as well which should have no issues establishing the flankers. Is there something special about the munitions available to each that I am missing?
(If you need me to be direct: Setting aside the Su-57s/AESA because yeah no shit.)
So it turns out Based Biden has been training Ukies on the F-16 the whole time while simultaneously denying they would ever get the planes? Do I have that right?
A small number of them have been training up til now, yes.
Why would you just go and lie like this? We have direct confirmation from the military in a public announcement/interview that at least as of a month and a half ago they had trained zero pilots and had no plans to do so immediately in the works.
> they had trained zero pilots
Keep in mind the timing. You're considered trained after you finish the course. If you have 18 month to train, and you're on month 17, you're not trained yet. Technically.
>We have direct confirmation from the military in a public announcement/interview that at least as of a month and a half ago they had trained zero pilots and had no plans to do so
You're an idiot. >If you have 18 month to train
If you had been paying attention to this matter you'd know how idiotic this is to say.
Bongs have been training ukie pilots since february, as the ministry of defense announced at the time. I guess the US plan was to train them there, deny it all and then announce it after they had a few months training under their belt
This should surprise nobody. So they have been in training since the start of February. So that's potentially 3 months of training already. I guess the yanks probabyl stationed the jets here way back when and they've been waiting to suddenly "announce" it this the whole time
Fucking idiot. >Headlines means its real
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/f-16s-will-be-focus-of-ukrainian-pilot-training-in-u-k
As of last week they confirmed that still hadn't begun training pilots and that when they did, it was just basic introductory pilot training and nothing to do with f-16s. >In a statement, meanwhile, the U.K. government said that it would begin a flying training program for Ukrainian student pilots in the coming weeks. “This summer we will commence an elementary flying phase for cohorts of Ukrainian pilots to learn basic training,” the statement read.
The are just finally getting around to what they have been talking about for months and it still has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Learn how to fucking read, you mouthbreather.
Also I'm not who you were arguing with but in the UK we are all aware of the fact ukie pilots have been over here doing flight training of one kind or another, it's common knowledge
You're a dumbass too
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I posted the UK defence journal, the other source was the UK MOD.
Also both the replies you're replying to are the same person, IE, not whoever you were arguing with before.
You seem hilariously angry. I stand corrected, it doesn't look like they got the program running as quickly as I thought.
I hope you manage to find peace one day.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I posted the UK defence journal, the other source was the UK MOD.
Don't care. >Also both the replies you're replying to are the same person, IE, not whoever you were arguing with before.
I don't care who the fuck it is, they clearly displayed an inability to read past a fucking headline and confidently claimed expertise in an area they self-evidently knew almost nothing about. >You seem hilariously angry.
Just fed up with retards coming on here and parrotting shit that they don't know like its proven gospel when it can be dispelled with literally 30 secs of googling. Even when challenged they just double down on it. >I stand corrected, it doesn't look like they got the program running as quickly as I thought.
Next time just say "I heard X" but I don't know how true/accurate it is. Fucking simple. >I hope you manage to find peace one day.
As soon as all the dipshits fuck off forever ie never. Till then I'll be here and bootyblasted.
Also I'm not who you were arguing with but in the UK we are all aware of the fact ukie pilots have been over here doing flight training of one kind or another, it's common knowledge
I don't think they fully trained them, probably gave them quick rundowns to see how much of their prior knowledge carried over.
I imagine we've been testing all sorts of other potential capabilities in quiet, but most probably didn't go too far. The overruling guideline of not giving Putin an excuse to escalate is still there.
This should surprise nobody. So they have been in training since the start of February. So that's potentially 3 months of training already. I guess the yanks probabyl stationed the jets here way back when and they've been waiting to suddenly "announce" it this the whole time
Works better than the glue they use i n F35s. Did I mention F16 nor F35 will have no chance against 5gen air superiority fighter? Once it notices them they are fucked as it has superior avionics. The only chance is go beyond unnoticed but this may be hard as russians do not fear to blast EM with megawatt range if needs be. F16 cannot evade russian radars.
Imagine having a ww2 plane with rows of 50cals but suddenly the bullets transform into air-to-air missiles. That's what the F-15E is like. A big, fast, weapon-pod
Think of F-16 like an affordable sedan and an F-15 like a luxury car. They're good in their own contexts.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
It can carry a massive payload.
Imagine having a ww2 plane with rows of 50cals but suddenly the bullets transform into air-to-air missiles. That's what the F-15E is like. A big, fast, weapon-pod
My name is G. Lowie Maninblack, from Langleygrad in Virginia Oblast, and by golly I would be just SO demoralized if the invincible Russian airforce were to deploy the Su-57 closer to the frontlines!
You know what would be extra super demoralizing? If that Felon just happened to be in the air proximal to Autonomous RCS Analysis Drone #C114 in Ukranian airspace just south of Belgorod. Boy howdy, that would really rustle some jimmies in HATO if the RuAF decided to throw shade by making flights from different angles to show off just how low that radar cross section is. I sure hope they don't do that!
None of the Western fighting vehicles have been seen yet. Presumably Ukraines going to unleash them all at once to maximize impact on the Russian side, not giving then a chance to adapt/learn.
I always marvel at the ability for russian cocksleeves to seethe about things nobody but them is talking about. Next is screeching autistically about trannies, right?
>spends all day sitting well behind front line avoiding R-37s while intercepting the occasional cruise missile
Who cares. Sending another 100 Bradleys would have 3x the impact of F-16s. Hell even more M113s and other assorted armoured mobility would be more useful as Ukraine is still being spotted to this day using civilian trucks near the frontline which just should not be happening.
lol is that what rachel maddow has told you from the talking box on the wall. damn you people are stupid. blood thirty animals. depleted uranium clouds over europe, who could have seen that coming. go write another check Zelensky has more porsches to buy
<he's probably playing the piano with his dick again>
>spends all day sitting well behind front line avoiding R-37s while intercepting the occasional cruise missile
Who cares. Sending another 100 Bradleys would have 3x the impact of F-16s. Hell even more M113s and other assorted armoured mobility would be more useful as Ukraine is still being spotted to this day using civilian trucks near the frontline which just should not be happening.
said theyre going to be operating well inside ukie airspace intercepting things and trading standoff munitions with russian jets
So how the fuck is Ukraine unlocking all this red line shit?
I assume it means every single glowie agency has assessed Russia is going to lose and this turned westerners fearless about actually committing to making it happen
If you asked me in the 1980s I'd say the Su-27 and F-16 are comparable in performance. But nowadays the F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-22 are the GOATs. F-35 is too expensive for my tastes
Then how did you arrive at "likely" if you are basing it off of literal nothing? Do you even know what differentiates a B from an A or C? Are you even aware of how few Bs were ever produced?
>Do you have a single shred of evidence to base this off of, other than your fevered delusions of course?
If they're European F-16's they'll be F-16AM/BM (roughly equivalent to Block 50 in capabilities) because that's what Euro countries have. If they come from US stocks they'll likely be F-16C Block 40 or Block 50 and hopefully some F-16CJ/DJ Wild Weasels because that's what the US has flying. A few block 70 F-16V would be cool but a complete pipe dream.
>If they're European F-16's they'll be F-16AM/BM (roughly equivalent to Block 50 in capabilities) because that's what Euro countries have
>The latest blocks of F-16
They are getting the original stock F-16s that went to Belgium, Denmark, and Netherlands. I'm sure they've got that midlife update and some point but they aren't gonna be as tricked out as the fresh ones.
MLUed F-16As from Belgium/Netherlands/Denmark
Those would be the original As (and a few Bs), not the AMs. I know Denmark has a few of those but I find it hard to believe they are gonna hand over their new shit and keep the planes they were already trying to retire. >If they come from US stocks
Up till now Bidem admin has shown resistance to providing them themselves and tried to arrange for them to come from European/Nato partners >A few block 70 F-16V would be cool but a complete pipe dream.
Indeed
Also, f16 without support is literally worthless for SEAD no matter how many cope HARMs you give them because the s300 and s400 outrange them no matter if they are lobbing missiles in seeker mode for standoff or not
These things are going to be flaming wrecks if they actually attempt to get anywhere close to the russian AD network
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You say that yet Ukriane has had its airforce for over a year.
Planes and pilots are somewhat expendable as long as the value cost was higher to the enemy after all, anon. You don't look at their losses from a single exchange, and you certainly don't pigeonhole them into trying to SEAD with limited AA capabilities.
Russia has radar gaps, and Russian radar planes are highly limited, the west knows the radar situation better than anyone and they're saying it's a good idea so obviously it must have a use.
The F-35 is cheap, unless you're buying the STOVL version. Hell, it is cheaper than 4th Gen fighters like Rafale, SU-35, and Grippen.
The F-16 is a better plane than the SU-27, cheaper to operate, cheaper to maintain, has more modern technology, better weapon systems. It is also theoretically cheaper if you can get the basic bitch variant. Parts are easy to acquire too. The most modern F-16 Variants are just as stealthy as SU-57, better performance, and 1/2 the price.
SU-27 is around 35M
F-16 is around 35-64M depending on variant
F-18 is around 67M
F-35A is around 79M (B and C are more because of STOVL and carrier-borne variant options. Around 135M and 117M respectively)
Grippen is around 85M for the newest variant.
SU-35 is around 85M
Rafale is around 115M
SU-57 is around 139M Million++ They were hoping to drive down the cost if someone ordered them. Currently they're being built "bespoke" without a real assembly line.
F-22 is around 143M
>Hell, it is cheaper than 4th Gen fighters like Rafale, SU-35, and Grippen
Lockheed is making bank. But I'm still biased to the F/A-18 Super Hornet, they're just so good >The F-16 is a better plane than the SU-27, cheaper to operate, cheaper to maintain, has more modern technology, better weapon systems.
Today absolutely. During the 1980s they were comparable with some differences
Despite all this its clear that European nations are removing the old for the new, aka the F-16 out, and the F-35 in
Then how did you arrive at "likely" if you are basing it off of literal nothing? Do you even know what differentiates a B from an A or C? Are you even aware of how few Bs were ever produced?
Likely is a figure of speech, more power to whatever I say. But for you, ya need to calm the fuck down before you get a stroke
I think you're the ESL considering you don't know this. I've always enjoyed using stronger language. Would you rather I say "probably F-16B's" instead? Or are you going to continue getting mad over a single statement?
I know this is probably a smooth brain question but why does Ukraine want F-16's so bad? I mean, I get wanting planes but what is the utility they gain by having them? As far as I know Russia saturates the shit out of the place with AA so what role does having jets serve? Ukraine is a defacto no-fly zone on both sides unless you do Top Gun shit and anytime they use aviation they just lob missiles and nope-the-fuck out.
Something something air superiority. Then again some retards are shilling the A-10 when that old piece of shit would get destroyed by 40mm Bofor gun from the 1940s
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I've always enjoyed using stronger language
No one asked. Go back to whatever turdworld shithole you climbed out of
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Whatever moron
The A-10 shilling is dumb but the core argument is that it's not that much less survivable than an Su-25 and both sides are still flying them 450+ days into the war
A-10s launching massive barrages of unguided FFARs and firing the cannon like artillery is sounds dumb but it's the state of CAS in theater
F-15E would be a better option considering you're less likely to get swiped down from 30mm. Still an 9K38 Igla might do the job
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>F-15E would be a better option
yeah and a full B-2 strike package would be best but the Ukies aren't getting those either
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The A-10 shilling is dumb but the core argument is that it's not that much less survivable than an Su-25 and both sides are still flying them 450+ days into the war
A-10s launching massive barrages of unguided FFARs and firing the cannon like artillery is sounds dumb but it's the state of CAS in theater
I know this is probably a smooth brain question but why does Ukraine want F-16's so bad? I mean, I get wanting planes but what is the utility they gain by having them? As far as I know Russia saturates the shit out of the place with AA so what role does having jets serve? Ukraine is a defacto no-fly zone on both sides unless you do Top Gun shit and anytime they use aviation they just lob missiles and nope-the-fuck out.
Because now they can lob way better missiles before they can nope the fuck out. It's not the planes, it's the bombs, EW packages, missiles, avionics, etc that they have that makes the difference.
Ukraine doesn't actually have any fox 3 at all and giving them a western fighter, any fighter, is to sling AMRAAM at cruise missiles and Russian fighters
>I know this is probably a smooth brain question but why does Ukraine want F-16's so bad?
Out of the box full interopability with all NATO munitions and much easier supply chain for NATO to provide (which they are depending upon). >I mean, I get wanting planes but what is the utility they gain by having them?
They lost a lot of frams in the openning days of the war and have steadily lost even more. They need to replace them with something. > As far as I know Russia saturates the shit out of the place with AA so what role does having jets serve?
Stand-offs and its now possible they will get HARMs and be able to do SEAD (possible, not a for sure). >Ukraine is a defacto no-fly zone on both sides
Not true. Yes it is a very difficult enviroment but aviation very much still has a role to play. If nothing else, just having it to keep the Russians "honest" and prevent a surprise/desperate deep strike.
Compatibility with NATO air to x missiles that you don't have to jury rig to soviet aircraft and can use properly with its radar systems not pre planed mode with HARM and so on and also they are smaller on radars then mig-29 and su-27 so you know some breathing room till you're light up by a radar and have to dodge missiles
1. Lob bombs/missiles at the Russian ground forces the same way Russia is launching shit at them. Russia will have the same trouble stopping it Ukraine does.
2. F-16 gives them access to a whole variety of junk in NATO storage to kill Russians without having to Jerry-rig their old Slavshit every time they want to do something new. Once Ukraine has the planes, the missiles and bombs might flow.
3. F-16's have access to some long range missiles (Ukraine might not get these) which can shoot down the Russian planes who are lobbing bombs. Ukraine might have to instead ask for the retiring French Mirages 2000's which also have a super long range Air-to-Air missile that NATO isn't worried about Russia copying.
4. Russia has a lot of anti-air, but you can still kill their RADARs units with HARMs shot from planes. Russia can't easily replace these systems so eventually you'd degrade their SAMs if you did it enough. Ukraine has some HARMs Jerry-rigged to their planes already but F-16 operates HARMs natively and can use more features to make them more effective
5. Even if you can't gain air superiority over the Russian air defenses for a while (if ever), it is still nice to assist your own SAM network by being able to fly F-16s to assist in shooting down missiles and planes.
6. Eventually their own planes will wear down, so they'll need something to replace them. The sooner they get started training pilots and ground crews, the quicker and smoother the transition.
7. F-16 in particular is very common plane and might be the easiest to get significant quantities of them. The best would be Grippen, but there aren't enough out there and Sweden isn't likely to give up their whole air force. F-16 is the most realistic.
8. F-16 is cheap to operate and maintain compared to the Slavshit they're using.
F16 can effectively throw anything the west makes iirc.
They're all using the same rails, integration is probably not that difficult outside of code changes.
It's probably gonna be a whole bunch F-16A's and early F-16C's
I don't think Ukraine will get any AMRAAM's, instead they'll be used to get rid of NATO's old Fox 1 stock like Sparrows and Aspide
Some anon yesterday worked out that the countries that are gonna provide have a bunch of the old As so that is what they are going to get. It was the Dutch and the Belgians and one more I cannot remember.
i'll believe it when i'll see these birds in ukrainian colors
ooooooooooooooo liverybros
ERA when?
Now
Sooooo... UK is gonna get F-16 fighters for ukraine?
Like_what_I_am_smoking?.jpg
muraxx
>blue angels
>Sooner then you think
>But not as soon as you hope
>Sooner then you think
So less then 3 weeks
>But not as soon as you hope
So longer then a week
Glove status?
Why not just send retired American F-16 pilots? There is nothing illegal about that. They're volunteers. It'd be the Fighting Tigers 2.0.
Man I bet the flying tigers got so much Chang pussy
muh optics
It's called a "targeting pod" on planes.
The US does not want to give Russia the chance to cope and say they only lost because NATO attacked
I unironically believe this is a major factor in how NATO has been titrating aid and gradually sending new classes of weapon systems. Not the only factor, but a big one.
Part of it is that the Ukranian resistance is now the core of a newly forged national identity. Different factions and regions suddenly have a lot more in common with each other, and the sense of patriotism has helped with a lot of things - one example is anticorruption efforts.
The other part is that after initial attempts to give Putin an offramp back to the 2014 status quo, he doubled down. From the standpoint of the West, that means Russian imperial ambitions need to be unequivocally stubbed out, and that factors into hammering the lesson home to RF recidivists who otherwise might go for the cope and pull this kind of stunt again.
US learned it’s lesson in Vietnam and Afghanistan.
If you fight for the side you want to win, they’ll never be confident to fight without you. It’s the ‘teach a man to fish’ mentality shift of the US foreign policy.
>teach a man to fish
Yep
On top of that Ukraine is really suitable operate F16s since they have already a ton of trained MIG/SU pilots that sit on their asses since Ukraine lacks spare planes
Retraining to F16 those already trained and experienced pilot, from a country that has Airforce command structures present, takes way less time than having to train someone from zero, from a country that had no air capabilities at all before.
The retired pilots can do that if their own accord, but it isn't a good idea for the US to actively send any kind of personal over there to openly operate weapons and aircraft. Not to mention like
already posted, the US found out that it's much better to teach and steer whatever side they support in the right direction rather than just do the jobs themselves and watch everything go to hell when they let said side take over with hardly any experience in operating the equipment in an effective way.
You think some pilot who served for 10-20 years wants to go get shot down over some potato-slav-vodka war?
absolutely, yes. saw an interview with a seasoned F16 pilot a few months ago where he said he wanted to fly for Ukraine
>do guys who spent their entire career dreaming of slaughtering russians still want to slaughter russians
idk dude hard one
Yeah I’m sure there’s plenty of retired American fighter pilots foaming at the mouth to leave their comfy pensions and airline pilot jobs behind to risk getting shot down, killed, or captured by vatnigs over stupid slavic land grab war #72.
Get fucking real.
Most retired military pilots become civilian pilots and get paid more than most western Euros. You think they wanna trade that just to die in a slavic banana republic and have endless vatnig threads posting their fiery wreck.
>that perfect old age where you simply stop giving a fuck
My fucking christ I love Biden so much
If Biden wasn't such a scared lil bitch about providing them aircrafts, the war would be over already
Sadly the state of US politics means it was going to be either Trump or Biden in charge and I would rather not have the guy that praises Putin.
this x1000.
Ukraine would have been fucked if trump was in charge.
>state department orange man chud operatives
The war would never have happened and our recruiting numbers would have remained stable. You can dispute the first point and I'd call that fair to debate. The second, literally everyone here knows is a fact.
Uh oh chicken hawk election tourists are here
>the war would be over already
THIS IS IT
RUSSIA'S FINISHED THIS TIME FOR SURE
J.A.R.V.I.S, superimpose this anons picture over the timeline of territory lost by the Russian Federation in Ukraine
Hey Vatmoron, how are those assaults going for you?
how's that counteroffensive ?
Hey Benny! Look who's on the wrong side of the RIV-ER
Waiting for the rains to pass
https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/Donetsk+Donetsk+Ukraine
Attacking through mud is something only brainless ziggers do
I FUCKING LOVE THE VIPER AAAAAAAAAA
You lot are retarded. We knew for months ukranian pilots were training in UK on "modern jets". Come on now, how is this a surprise?
Somehow that and other shit got seriously memory-holed. It's fucking weird.
>Patriots have joined the server
>Ukraine has a no fly zone now
What would happen after Ukraine get F-16's?
>What would happen after Ukraine get F-16's?
PGM spam with NATO munitions that eternally buckbreaks Russians so bad that they start telling folktales of it
I'm already getting hard from the idea of AGM-65 Mavericks buck breaking vatniks armor
...and that, little Sasha, is why you always listen to babushka and eat your sawdust soup without complaint: or else great HARM wil come to you.
They can drop the bridge and sink any ship that tries to resupply Crimea, also they can clusterbomb the next mayday parade.
Wagner gets a reminder of what happened in Syria
wagners get flashbacks
Wasn't that some heavy aircraft with cannons?
a few of em
>lol America is just a bunch of sissies and tr- ACK!
why the fuck do dictatorships never learn their fucking lesson?
Thirdies can't grasp the(ruralite) white boy wildin energy coupled with the urbanite big brain WASP infinite money glitch.
protip: Never underestimate the minority tool pushing ability your average Scotts-Irish NCO.
scotts - irish aren't rural they are plumbers which still makes them formidable engineers
>BTFOing foes with just airstrikes and missiles
man modern warfare is ridicolous
this is a blue board at least spoiler lewd images
>B-52
They should have run the fuck away.
The funniest part of this is the people on the ground that survived knew they were being hit by artillery and Apache, but they had no clue everything else was also hitting them.
>and then they took four helicopters up and pushed us in a fucking merry-go-round with heavy caliber machine guns
kek
based burgers
Thi8s is some COD mission tier shit. COD post MW2 even.
>HIMARS
No wonder it did so well against the Russians, it had already tasted their blood.
It was basically everything and the kitchen sink
You can tell by the map that this was a clusterfuck of incredible proportions.
LEEROY JENKINS
when pigs fly
Most likely the war will be wrapping up by the time the first F-16s even arrive.
THE VIPER IS CUTE! CUTE!!
Pretty cute Indeed.
>n-no senpai! That’s my t-tailpipe!
Toob.
It's time.
what a cute little weasel, is he domesticated?
You gotta me shitting me.
the wildest!
SEND THIS ONE
SHOOT DOWN SOME FUCKING VATNIG AIRLINERS
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Now hand these over Austin, you cuck
The A-10 getting sent in to mop up Russians in Ukraine would be so fucking kino. The old girl finally getting to complete her intended mission before retirement.
Have a Warthog and Grach every shot their autocannons at each other? Hmm
I will never forgive Biden for not letting me see a pack of A10s go hogwild on that stalled Russian column. Imagine vatnik highway of death filmed by drones
>Imagine vatnik highway of death filmed by drones
Risk of Putin going nuclear is always too great. But maybe we'll see something interesting when they push for Crimea.
>But maybe we'll see something interesting when they push for Crimea.
Afaik the Crimean causeway is the only area where nukes would have actual tactical battlefield value. So if Putin is going to use nukes anywhere or at any time during this war it will be there. Funnily enough Ukraine can avoid that and just squeeze him all day by Storm Shadowing the Kerch bridge and laying siege to Crimea, without ever needing to cross the causeway anyway.
Anon they likely would have been shot down if we're being completely honest. As cool as it would have been to see Highway to Vatmoron hell, they cant compete against Russian AA and their fighter aircraft. F-16s are far more versatile and will do considerably more damage to Russia in the long run.
In a normal conflict yeah, but in the clownworld conflict of the first two weeks TB-2s were bombing Buk and Pantsir with impunity because they didn't turn their own IADS on
This. The russians didnt even bother setting up their AD network for the initial invasion
Ukies don't want the A-10
>A10s go hogwild on that stalled Russian column
if the ukrainian air force got decimated by AA, what makes you think a 400 mph fat plane would last longer than 30 seconds
>Ukraine will not receive them until the end of the year
F-16 is a go precisely because the pilots are trained. Wait, you thought they were idling this entire time? Lmao.
Da I am John Cowboy from Hawaii Autonomous Oblast and I am writing to my local governor to stop this transfer of inferior plane?
>plane?
?
>very old
moron the F-16 is still being built to this day, they only JUST released the next modernization block
that's like saying the M1 Abrams is a very old tank because it was first built in 1979
Why can't western pilots fly for Ukraine under Ukrainian passports? It's happened before in history
It's not a legal concern, it's a political one. American government generally does not want American men fighting in Ukraine. They will train Ukranians, but not fight Russians directly
What about Britain and western Europe?
It's all nato. The less confrontation the better, hence proxy war.
The dorrar is finish.
Ah that makes sense, cheers anon
Based guys
The limiting factor is amount of planes not amount of volunteers. Europeans all have tiny airforces compared to the U.S. Ukraine asked for Finland's F/A-18s and they said "fuck no, we already don't have enough planes to protect ourselves as it is." Pilots are useless without planes
Interesting question. I think the easy answer is they may not need to.
You mean the AVG "Flying Tigers"
Fuck these lads look great to have a pint with
Johnski Andersonski from the state of Kie...Kyiv may have some issues being believed.
There was this american guy Dan Hampton, said he would.
Because western nations are not formally in a war, therefore their actions are governed by peacetime institutional oversight. Such oversight prevents underhanded tactics that fit the homo sovieticus and the homo wumaoticus more.
Congress explicitly retains the right to issue letters of Marque and Reprisal, they're just pussies
While it would be fucking kino if congress wrote Letters of Marque and Reprisal to allow American pilots slap russki shit, it wouldn't go down well in front of the rest of the world.
First that was still a war act, it was just a way to let private actors fight in the war. Also in all seriousness it's more that it was found to be something whose age passed a long time ago. Privateers tended to behave like shit, not all of them, but lots, and it doesn't matter to anyone else if they're not "officially" military, they'd be perceived as part of the forces of whatever country issued the authorization (with good reason). So whatever bad shit they did would go right back to the country in question, and also they were less and less effective in the face of ever more advanced actual state armies.
I mean shit anon, you can see this right fucking now in this very war: WAGNER. It's a private organization permitted by the Russian state to go do war shit for profit. Nobody thinks "oh wagner tortured a bunch of POWs to death haha nothing to do with Russia though!"
>we can't have flying tigers ii: amraam boogaloo because anon is scared they're going to go rogue and bomb donetsk children
boo I say, free the flying tigers. Issue a Letter of Marque authorizing US private aggressor squadrons to contract with Kyiv as a private air security services corporation, under Kyiv's UN charter right to collective and self defense
all very legal you see :^)
>all very legal you see :^)
That's all very eastern and legalistic, which isn't the way The West does things. Shit like that is exactly from the Russki playbook.
You keep repeating this and people keep telling you it's a proud American tradition and you keep not listening. America has always bent the rules to spread freedom and firepower.
Sure, but that was under wartime powers and it was a different time. A flying tiger-esque ruse would soon be outed by someone.
I want to see American pirates targeting Russian vessels. Absolutely based and plunderpilled
Because the moment that US servicemen end up coming home in a coffin, which will happen since it is a war and while the Russians are losing, people do die, there would be some pretty intense political backlash that would make continued support for Ukraine less of a political freebie and bipartisan thing. The average US citizen doesn't give a fuck about sending military aid in the form of money and weapons, soldiers dying always make it harder to keep the status quo, and so it's much easier for the US to let Ukraine do the dying while the West bankrolls the vatnik extermination program.
they would if it wasn't for muh escalation and muh nooks. God, nukes are so fucking gay they take the fun out of warfare
Nice!
Let me guess, you also think America will go broke providing them, providing them is unnecessarily weakening our ability to defend the US, and it's further proof that the democrats are using Ukraine to line their pockets?
THREAD THEME https://youtu.be/qd5eXsXd6HE
No, this is literally the best possible soundtrack for a flock of F-16s appearing over the horizon. Plays when Yellow Squadron's superior ace aircrafts turn up. It was built for this moment
For me it's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLZH4z6OdsU
Pacta sunt servanda, as they say in the collective West. Terms will be fulfilled and the contract will be closed. HATO bandits in the sky...
CUM HISTORIA
Naaah, you guys got it all wrong, here, I got you:
It's time.
I'm going to be honest, I think the originals are better. I think the additions detract slightly more often than they improve. It seems like they were intent on making sure there were never sections without something new added, without consideration for how some of those elements would fit.
8/10 bait, needs a bit more schizo sprinkled in to be convincing.
>In Russia there is a saying: we endure long, but our anger is quick and terrible.
In other words: "We won't do anything but cope and seethe."
I have never wanted to be a Viper pilot as much as I do now.
Test
>inb4 russia posts "the f-16 is an old 1970's design and is inferior to Russia's Su-35/57/Mig-29s"
It takes years for a fighter pilot to master the F-16.
>while you were all out partying having premarital drone drops
>I mastered the aeroblade
>In the event that the Ukrainian counteroffensive proves futile, the F-16s may become useless in the future.
This sentence makes no sense. Wether the enxt ukrainian offensive succeeds or not is effectively immaterial. Ukraine enjoys excellent morale, a deep manpower pool an deffectively unlimited funding, equipment and supplies from the west. The war has alreadys been decided, the only question remaining is how long it will take the Ukrainians to systematically grind the Russian Army into dust. Russia's chance of winning this war are on the same level as that of Imperial Japan winning the Pacific War after Midway.
>Russia's chance of winning this war are on the same level as that of Imperial Japan winning the Pacific War after Midway
They're on the same level of Russia's chances of winning the Russo-Japanese war after Tsushima
jesus christ
>Ukraine enjoys excellent morale, a deep manpower pool
You mean 18 year old students and old grandpas who get beaten on the streets by police officers for refusing to go to the draft centers and able-bodied men who dress up as women and try to cross the border with Moldavia to escape the meat grinder?
its real in my mind
Yes look at line of hohols fleeing conscription in September of 2022!
Why are you discrediting the russian army for implying they can't beat a bunch of 18 year old students and old grandpas who get beaten on the streets?
How much of a hard counter are F-16 with HARM and similar to Russian air defense? Is Ukrainian air-superiority feasible with enough arms?
Odds of seeing an F-16 kill an SU-57?
Depends how aggressively Russia uses their Su-57s. If they flee immediately every time they see aj F-16 on radar they should be fine.
I wanna believe Russia wouldn't let one of their jets near an F-16 but all sorts of tomfuckery has been going on in this war.
Budanov will make it happen.
The latest blocks of F-16 have a lower RDAAR Cross Section than what the SU-57 designers were HOPING for with the SU-57.
The F-16 is, unironically, a better plane and should win.
>Radio Direction And Also Ranging
underrated
>The latest blocks of F-16
They are getting the original stock F-16s that went to Belgium, Denmark, and Netherlands. I'm sure they've got that midlife update and some point but they aren't gonna be as tricked out as the fresh ones.
They're likely not getting the absolute latest blocks unless Uncle Sam empties the petty cash drawer. Last I checked, we didn't know which ones they'll be getting. I'm pretty confident they'll get both Bs and Cs though and the C's have a 1.2 RCS. The Su-57 was hoping for a 0.1 to 1 RCS. KEK
>hey're likely not getting the absolute latest blocks
Did you just not read the post you are replying to? They are getting some of the first F16s ever made. As, not Cs
different anon, but from what I can read the nehtlerands have block 15 and 20.
So if they get the 15, that's a late 80's variant, right? It sounds like their block 20's are heavily upgraded but I doubt they'll get the latest shit.
Still, it's new enough to get a better radar and AMRAAMS, HARMs and mavericks, data link, and ECM pods. Definitely shits on a MiG-29
Yes, that is correct, F-16As - likely upgraded but not as good as the newest ones with the latest bells and whistles...the exact same point stated here
two hours ago.
Bonus: That MLU was the midlife update I mentioned in case you were wondering.
None have been committed yet as far as I know. Just speculation.
Not speculation, declaration of intent from the PM of the UK.
https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1659599358797443073
Netherlands and I think Denmark has already expressed willingness they were just waiting on the okay from the USA (which they just got). Speculation would be on the timetable and quantity which I welcome.
The timetable is going to be well over a year for the procurement process alone. Thats barring any major politicking and flip flopping
Then the logistical effort of getting them to ukraine with the associated logistical and maintainence train will be even longer
Also, where exactly is ukraine planning on operating these planes out of?
>The timetable is going to be well over a year for the procurement process alone
Doubtful.
>having to deal with multiple different euro countries giving away their f16s
>not going to involve a massive amount of deals, background politics both domestic and international
Youre very naive. The uk doesnt just snap its fingers and make the planes appear, unless theyre planning on depleting the entirety of their own stock
Uk doesnt even have f16s
Theyre partnered with the netherlands which does, the uk not having them just further reinforces my point. This is going to be very complicated. Think the political mess it took to get the western tanks to ukraine x10
Well, the previous weapons exports openeded the table so I dont really see if there is that much halting as with there was with leos
They want to send the outdated f16s. Good pal points awaits. And they would be scrap metal anyways, outdated planes. Next they buy F35s and such
Do they have the range to hit them well across the border? I though Russians have only been launching cruise missiles while safely above their own airspace?
Seeing it? Almost zero.
we can count on kyif independent to hint such might have happened, and it has humiliated russia all eternally to the point they should leave ukraine
>ukrainian propaganda bad
>russian propaganda good
>the F-16s are very old fighters
>easy prey for Russian air defenses, in particular the S-400, which are still quite new
>Meanwhile the russian wunderwaffe (in service since 2017) was shot down by an AA system introduced in the '80s
I think the ukies will do just fine
Let's be honest: refit T-62s are very old tanks that, although not inferior to Ukrainian IFVs, are still very easy prey for Ukrainian ATGMs, in particular the Javelin, which are still quite new and superior to many other ATGM systems. Moreover, it is possible that Russia will not receive them until the end of the year, because the minimum training time even for passable tankers is 6 days. In the event that the Russian counteroffensive proves non-existant, the T-62s may become useless in the future. Also, the tanks are a step toward escalating the conflict, I'm not sure that's what the Russians need. In addition, the question of the number of possible refitted tanks is important. If there will be only 30-40 of them, then they will not show anything on the battlefield, Russia will flap them like sunflower seeds. The Russians should think it over before committing such reckless acts. In the West there is a saying: fuck around and find out. Russian rats should know this already.
>although not inferior to Ukrainian IFVs
[Laughs in Bradley]
It's not about the plane but more the munitions stockpile it unlocks. America is air force focused. This means there is a much bigger stockpile of say... JDAMs than HIMARS guided missiles (I guess). Think of it more like unlocking huge reserves of JDAMS to add to HIMARS, AIM-120 to add to SAMs, and on top of that unlocking completely new capabilities like low observable glide bombs or cruise missiles if that happens. Of course the fact that it flies is huge too. People underestimate the reaction mobility advantage and the physics advantage of stuff you drop having the potential energy of 30k feet. Even if they use them very conservatively it will help.
So what advantage does this plane have over Russian Air defense? Will they be flying low like the ones Ukraine already have? What make them more advantageous than the polish ones they've recently receive, which also carries NATO munitions?
HARM is actually plugged in properly and works in all three modes. Glossing over things, HARM can
>use it's seeker to go hot off the rail and fire at targets of opportunity
>use a pre-planned GPS flight path and only start seeking radar in the terminal approach
>tie into the plane's RWR and fuck up whoever is stupid enough to lock you
The way HARM is used in Ukraine is probably the second and maybe the first, but they can't use the third mode because Russian RWRs are shit and won't talk to HARM.
Same goes for AMRAAM. You *might* be able to fire it pitbull off a MiG 29, but that's using it really poorly. An F-16 can take any standard NATO pylon store and use it to it's full capability as opposed to being nigrigged to an iPad.
On one hand this hits close to home, because I maintained these in the AF and have a love/hate relationship with them but don't want them hurt.
On the other hand, I wanna see them go up against Russia
For the last six months we have heard:
>yes T-55s are old but they are great tanks and more than a match than anything in the HATO arsenal!
Now it's:
>really, F-16 is such an old plane and russian air defence will have absolutely no problems with shooting them down
I don't understand how vatnik brains don't explode under the pressure of all the cognitive dissonance they keep in there.
When your culture is entirely dependent on knowing your leaders are lying, but nobody speaking up unless they want to spend 10-15 in an unheated cell, you either rewire your brain go ignore it or you go mad.
I see you don't talk much with Tankies and certain type of butthurt thirdie living in the West.
Good for you.
So how will this be any more useful than the MiGs and Sukhois Ukraine currently has and is limited to flying tree-top level to avoid the SAM umbrella?
These can properly shoot US air-launched missiles.
But they've already had this capability with the Polish-upgraded Mig-29s and HARM, and the suHispanicion that AIM-120s are also integrated.
So other than the numeric increase in aircraft, I can't really see this as a huge upgrade to capabilities.
>I can't really see this as a huge upgrade to capabilities
i think the main reason for this is that you’re retarded
How well integrated are the HARMs on the MIGs tho? Do they have all the functionality they would have mounted on a F16?
Probably not well, and it is unlikely that the function the same way. The missile has to communicate with the Soviet avionics and that probably would take many months to retrofit.
No, definitely not. HARMs have seeker heads that are able to provide some targeting data and act semi autonomously like a Sidewinder, but the real winner of the Viper HARM deployment is the HARM targeting system. Electronic warfare pod that turns the HARM into a fucking beast.
The HARM integration was a rush job and presumably the Ukrainians can only fire the HARMs in their self guiding mode.
F-16s are already capable of firing just about everything in NATO inventory as standard, which means they can link their sensors to western precision munitions. Not to mention, there's a hell of a lot more F-16s and F-16 parts than MiG-29s, and even bargain bin surplus F-16s from NATO members are light years ahead of what Ukraine currently has access to.
>and the suHispanicion that AIM-120s are also integrated
proof? firing a GPS guided munition preprogrammed on the ground is not the same thing as launching an AMRAAM that wants to talk to the plane's radar
AIM-120s have their own active seeker that can independently detect targets, but this of course really wastes the AIM-120's long range.
if they have AIM-120s they are firing them in pitbull mode which really nullifies them. They still will get pushed by russkies befoe they can fire them.
you really think so?
when i look at the map like a video game and i imagine what the F-16s can do. i'd start using them in the places where RU has the least air defense and use them as part of a push in those areas. it's pretty obvious on my map.
you can see it, right?
I was talking about if they use AMRAAMs integrated with the MiGs. My point was F-16s would fix this issue
Ukraine biggest problem in their air war was: too little planes and too old planes compared to the russian airforce.
These F-16 will solve both issues among others.
>Ukraine biggest problem in their air war was: too little planes and too old planes compared to the russian airforce.
But how does that solve the issue? Say an F-16 takes off and wants to operate in Russian defended airspace. It's prospects are as grim as the current batch of MiGs and Sukhois. It adds no additional capability, except more airframes to maybe try to launch a few sorties at a time.
Maintaining those Soviet airframes, even the donated ones, isn't going to be possible long-term anon. By transitioning the Ukrainians to one of the most numerous and widely used combat aircraft the west makes it possible to keep the Ukrainian Air Forces intact and operating even in a long war. The extra sorties will also certainly help.
It does though
Data link + enhanced harm + AMRAAMs and other missiles
It is simply superior
Russia can't operate in Ukrainian airspace either, why do you think they rely on standoff munitions?
The F-16 isn't the only thing they're getting. I'd imagine they'll get ECW and other technology too
t. not a contractor
Are you just being wilfully retarded or what? With F-16s the ukrainains get access to much longer ranger air to air missiles. Weapons that Ukrainian pilots don't actually have to guide all the way to their targets. Russians have this capability already and it's a genuine major problem for the ukrainians. With F-16s the ukrianians can field munitions that match the russian capability, and easily exceed it depending on what the west feels like giving them. My guy, F-16s are going to be a major capability upgrade for ukraine no matter how many they actually acquire from the west.
moron what the fuck are you talking about? A vaguely up to date F-16 gives the Ukies Fox-3 missiles that can finally enable them to actually fight against russian jets. Also it gives them a platform that can actually use HARMs properly. Yes, Russian airspace is massively denied, but the difference between early generation Russian Fox-1 missiles and AIM120Cs, analogue radar versus a proper datalink, proper navigation and situational awareness... it's a big upgrade. It at least gives them another means for shooting down cruise missiles
Ukraine right now needs a lot of long range anti-anti air. For this they need those planes
This will allow them to break the stalemate
>So how does having more shells solve any issue? It adds no additional capability, except more shells to maybe try to launch a few barrages at a time.
Maybe think about sustainment?
The F-16s aren't being sent to dogfight other Russian SUs or MiGs. They're being sent for the added capability of long-range missiles that can be launched from those platforms.
the F-16A's and MLU's won't out-BVR Flankers
we're talking about a fighter with a relatively old pulse doppler radar going up against jets with PESA and maybe even AESA radars if the russians decide to bring in the Su-57, the F-16 is at a pretty major disadvantage against those.
>the F-16A's and MLU's won't out-BVR Flankers
Can you walk me through this? The Ibris-E is a notorious underperformer (and not even a "true" PESA). Meanwhile I assume the eurocucks are gonna hand over the Pantera pods as well which should have no issues establishing the flankers. Is there something special about the munitions available to each that I am missing?
(If you need me to be direct: Setting aside the Su-57s/AESA because yeah no shit.)
Irbis-E*
It unlocks the western missile tech tree.
F16s can shoot JASSM cruise missiles that go 900 km and AIM-120 air to air missiles
So it turns out Based Biden has been training Ukies on the F-16 the whole time while simultaneously denying they would ever get the planes? Do I have that right?
A small number of them have been training up til now, yes.
No
Why would you just go and lie like this? We have direct confirmation from the military in a public announcement/interview that at least as of a month and a half ago they had trained zero pilots and had no plans to do so immediately in the works.
> they had trained zero pilots
Keep in mind the timing. You're considered trained after you finish the course. If you have 18 month to train, and you're on month 17, you're not trained yet. Technically.
>We have direct confirmation from the military in a public announcement/interview that at least as of a month and a half ago they had trained zero pilots and had no plans to do so
You're an idiot.
>If you have 18 month to train
If you had been paying attention to this matter you'd know how idiotic this is to say.
Bongs have been training ukie pilots since february, as the ministry of defense announced at the time. I guess the US plan was to train them there, deny it all and then announce it after they had a few months training under their belt
>Bongs have been training ukie pilots since february
Then link it. But you can't so you won't.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/britain-to-train-ukrainian-fighter-pilots/
Fucking idiot.
>Headlines means its real
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/f-16s-will-be-focus-of-ukrainian-pilot-training-in-u-k
As of last week they confirmed that still hadn't begun training pilots and that when they did, it was just basic introductory pilot training and nothing to do with f-16s.
>In a statement, meanwhile, the U.K. government said that it would begin a flying training program for Ukrainian student pilots in the coming weeks. “This summer we will commence an elementary flying phase for cohorts of Ukrainian pilots to learn basic training,” the statement read.
The are just finally getting around to what they have been talking about for months and it still has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Learn how to fucking read, you mouthbreather.
You're a dumbass too
I posted the UK defence journal, the other source was the UK MOD.
Also both the replies you're replying to are the same person, IE, not whoever you were arguing with before.
You seem hilariously angry. I stand corrected, it doesn't look like they got the program running as quickly as I thought.
I hope you manage to find peace one day.
>I posted the UK defence journal, the other source was the UK MOD.
Don't care.
>Also both the replies you're replying to are the same person, IE, not whoever you were arguing with before.
I don't care who the fuck it is, they clearly displayed an inability to read past a fucking headline and confidently claimed expertise in an area they self-evidently knew almost nothing about.
>You seem hilariously angry.
Just fed up with retards coming on here and parrotting shit that they don't know like its proven gospel when it can be dispelled with literally 30 secs of googling. Even when challenged they just double down on it.
>I stand corrected, it doesn't look like they got the program running as quickly as I thought.
Next time just say "I heard X" but I don't know how true/accurate it is. Fucking simple.
>I hope you manage to find peace one day.
As soon as all the dipshits fuck off forever ie never. Till then I'll be here and bootyblasted.
Also I'm not who you were arguing with but in the UK we are all aware of the fact ukie pilots have been over here doing flight training of one kind or another, it's common knowledge
I don't think they fully trained them, probably gave them quick rundowns to see how much of their prior knowledge carried over.
I imagine we've been testing all sorts of other potential capabilities in quiet, but most probably didn't go too far. The overruling guideline of not giving Putin an excuse to escalate is still there.
>tfw your planefu is going on one last ride
NEVER OBSOLETE
Da comrade Hannah from Montana Oblast here. I think we should stop listening to msm and listen to incel slave z for facts wect is trying to bury
Is he going to ride again?
boots on the ground after.
??????
This should surprise nobody. So they have been in training since the start of February. So that's potentially 3 months of training already. I guess the yanks probabyl stationed the jets here way back when and they've been waiting to suddenly "announce" it this the whole time
Friendly reminder that Storm Shadow bombed lugansk children literally the same day UK announced they will supply them.
Let's dance, dear hoholy. Let's dance
>cough
Works better than the glue they use i n F35s. Did I mention F16 nor F35 will have no chance against 5gen air superiority fighter? Once it notices them they are fucked as it has superior avionics. The only chance is go beyond unnoticed but this may be hard as russians do not fear to blast EM with megawatt range if needs be. F16 cannot evade russian radars.
Trying too hard with this bait
nothing is more bait than claim outdated f16 will have any impact on this war
The faked ESL is even worse bait.
Even more outdated MiG-29s with jury-rigged HARMs already had impact on this war, little ESL vatmoron.
>today I will remind him
Much love to Georgia. You'll make it to a first-world country someday
What makes the F-15 better than F-16 at air-to-air? Hasn't everything been BVR for ages now? It's not like dogfighting is still a thing right?
F-15 is bigger in every way from the radar to the engines.
Radar's better, can fly higher, can fly faster, and can haul more missiles. All those p handy for BVR.
It can carry a massive payload.
Imagine having a ww2 plane with rows of 50cals but suddenly the bullets transform into air-to-air missiles. That's what the F-15E is like. A big, fast, weapon-pod
Think of F-16 like an affordable sedan and an F-15 like a luxury car. They're good in their own contexts.
Retarded comparisons
Anyone got the version of this without that cocksucker Boyd?
>russians do not fear to blast EM with megawatt range if needs be
>wild weasel
its probably exactly what NATO is hoping they will do
My name is G. Lowie Maninblack, from Langleygrad in Virginia Oblast, and by golly I would be just SO demoralized if the invincible Russian airforce were to deploy the Su-57 closer to the frontlines!
You know what would be extra super demoralizing? If that Felon just happened to be in the air proximal to Autonomous RCS Analysis Drone #C114 in Ukranian airspace just south of Belgorod. Boy howdy, that would really rustle some jimmies in HATO if the RuAF decided to throw shade by making flights from different angles to show off just how low that radar cross section is. I sure hope they don't do that!
What even happened to ukrainian Leos? Did they just memoryholed those as they did not work. Time for the next step of wunderwaffens?
None of the Western fighting vehicles have been seen yet. Presumably Ukraines going to unleash them all at once to maximize impact on the Russian side, not giving then a chance to adapt/learn.
Theres nothing different about firing a kornet at a bradley than a btr4
>lets go marvel avengers!
Will you cry if the counter offencive fails or never happens? Or do you cope if they get some few potato fields back?
I always marvel at the ability for russian cocksleeves to seethe about things nobody but them is talking about. Next is screeching autistically about trannies, right?
>marvel avengers
Reminder
It's actually endearing how much of a dork he is.
>offencive
too early for the needful sirs so imma go with favela tard on this one
>spends all day sitting well behind front line avoiding R-37s while intercepting the occasional cruise missile
Who cares. Sending another 100 Bradleys would have 3x the impact of F-16s. Hell even more M113s and other assorted armoured mobility would be more useful as Ukraine is still being spotted to this day using civilian trucks near the frontline which just should not be happening.
lol these planes will be target practice you war thirsty fucking dipshits. go write some more personal checks to Zelfucktard
This is your friendly reminder that Russia has destroyed zero (0) [zilch] <nada> {} HIMARS
lol is that what rachel maddow has told you from the talking box on the wall. damn you people are stupid. blood thirty animals. depleted uranium clouds over europe, who could have seen that coming. go write another check Zelensky has more porsches to buy
<he's probably playing the piano with his dick again>
At least I know you're not ChatGPT, because you're less coherent than 2012 era Cleverbot
20,000 confirmed Russian soldiers have died so far. That's already 5% of how many Americans died in WWII. But no, go ahead and worship the meatgrinder
My cock is absolutely throbbing at the thought of F16s dogfighting MiGs. This is the closest to a Cold War gone hot we’re going to see, lads
There will be no dogfighting. As
said theyre going to be operating well inside ukie airspace intercepting things and trading standoff munitions with russian jets
So how the fuck is Ukraine unlocking all this red line shit?
I assume it means every single glowie agency has assessed Russia is going to lose and this turned westerners fearless about actually committing to making it happen
NATO wants the war over and won before the putinshill moron drumpf and the republicans have a chance to win the 2024 election
Trump doesn't stand a chance at winning.
SIR DO NORT REDEEM THE ESCALATION, I SAID DO NOOOOOOOORT REDEEM THE ESCALATION!
I see we're at Bargaining. We just skipped right over Anger, huh?
>Outdated junk surpassed by the F-15E, F/A-18 Super Hornet, F-22, F-35
wooo
>no russian fighters
If you asked me in the 1980s I'd say the Su-27 and F-16 are comparable in performance. But nowadays the F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-22 are the GOATs. F-35 is too expensive for my tastes
Likely F-16Bs
>Likely F-16Bs
Do you have a single shred of evidence to base this off of, other than your fevered delusions of course?
You're a dumbass
>You'd think so
You shouldn't
Thats an assumption not a claim. Tone down your language moron
Then how did you arrive at "likely" if you are basing it off of literal nothing? Do you even know what differentiates a B from an A or C? Are you even aware of how few Bs were ever produced?
>Do you have a single shred of evidence to base this off of, other than your fevered delusions of course?
If they're European F-16's they'll be F-16AM/BM (roughly equivalent to Block 50 in capabilities) because that's what Euro countries have. If they come from US stocks they'll likely be F-16C Block 40 or Block 50 and hopefully some F-16CJ/DJ Wild Weasels because that's what the US has flying. A few block 70 F-16V would be cool but a complete pipe dream.
>If they're European F-16's they'll be F-16AM/BM (roughly equivalent to Block 50 in capabilities) because that's what Euro countries have
Those would be the original As (and a few Bs), not the AMs. I know Denmark has a few of those but I find it hard to believe they are gonna hand over their new shit and keep the planes they were already trying to retire.
>If they come from US stocks
Up till now Bidem admin has shown resistance to providing them themselves and tried to arrange for them to come from European/Nato partners
>A few block 70 F-16V would be cool but a complete pipe dream.
Indeed
No one is going to hand over their newest shit
Also, f16 without support is literally worthless for SEAD no matter how many cope HARMs you give them because the s300 and s400 outrange them no matter if they are lobbing missiles in seeker mode for standoff or not
These things are going to be flaming wrecks if they actually attempt to get anywhere close to the russian AD network
You say that yet Ukriane has had its airforce for over a year.
Planes and pilots are somewhat expendable as long as the value cost was higher to the enemy after all, anon. You don't look at their losses from a single exchange, and you certainly don't pigeonhole them into trying to SEAD with limited AA capabilities.
Russia has radar gaps, and Russian radar planes are highly limited, the west knows the radar situation better than anyone and they're saying it's a good idea so obviously it must have a use.
The F-35 is cheap, unless you're buying the STOVL version. Hell, it is cheaper than 4th Gen fighters like Rafale, SU-35, and Grippen.
The F-16 is a better plane than the SU-27, cheaper to operate, cheaper to maintain, has more modern technology, better weapon systems. It is also theoretically cheaper if you can get the basic bitch variant. Parts are easy to acquire too. The most modern F-16 Variants are just as stealthy as SU-57, better performance, and 1/2 the price.
SU-27 is around 35M
F-16 is around 35-64M depending on variant
F-18 is around 67M
F-35A is around 79M (B and C are more because of STOVL and carrier-borne variant options. Around 135M and 117M respectively)
Grippen is around 85M for the newest variant.
SU-35 is around 85M
Rafale is around 115M
SU-57 is around 139M Million++ They were hoping to drive down the cost if someone ordered them. Currently they're being built "bespoke" without a real assembly line.
F-22 is around 143M
He's a fucking idiot larping like he has the slightest inkling of what he is talking about. You are wasting your time.
>Hell, it is cheaper than 4th Gen fighters like Rafale, SU-35, and Grippen
Lockheed is making bank. But I'm still biased to the F/A-18 Super Hornet, they're just so good
>The F-16 is a better plane than the SU-27, cheaper to operate, cheaper to maintain, has more modern technology, better weapon systems.
Today absolutely. During the 1980s they were comparable with some differences
Despite all this its clear that European nations are removing the old for the new, aka the F-16 out, and the F-35 in
Likely is a figure of speech, more power to whatever I say. But for you, ya need to calm the fuck down before you get a stroke
>Likely is a figure of speech
No its not ESLtard
I think you're the ESL considering you don't know this. I've always enjoyed using stronger language. Would you rather I say "probably F-16B's" instead? Or are you going to continue getting mad over a single statement?
Something something air superiority. Then again some retards are shilling the A-10 when that old piece of shit would get destroyed by 40mm Bofor gun from the 1940s
>I've always enjoyed using stronger language
No one asked. Go back to whatever turdworld shithole you climbed out of
Whatever moron
F-15E would be a better option considering you're less likely to get swiped down from 30mm. Still an 9K38 Igla might do the job
>F-15E would be a better option
yeah and a full B-2 strike package would be best but the Ukies aren't getting those either
The A-10 shilling is dumb but the core argument is that it's not that much less survivable than an Su-25 and both sides are still flying them 450+ days into the war
A-10s launching massive barrages of unguided FFARs and firing the cannon like artillery is sounds dumb but it's the state of CAS in theater
Depends entirely which F-16s they are getting
MLUed F-16As from Belgium/Netherlands/Denmark
Garbage and easy prey for s300 and s400
*Blocks your path*
You'd think so, but the S-300 hasn't performed that well against Ukraine's existing airforce of even older soviet garbage
Why does the Ukrainian air force still exist?
that's the neat thing, it doesnt exist anymore outside of a handful of SU-25s doing low altitude ordnance dumps
how is that any different from russian air force?
no Package Q operational conditions?
Can F16’s do air to ground attack?
Initially? Not so well
Modern day? Yeah, they are considered a full multirole platform (in this case inclusive of ground-attack mission sets)
I know this is probably a smooth brain question but why does Ukraine want F-16's so bad? I mean, I get wanting planes but what is the utility they gain by having them? As far as I know Russia saturates the shit out of the place with AA so what role does having jets serve? Ukraine is a defacto no-fly zone on both sides unless you do Top Gun shit and anytime they use aviation they just lob missiles and nope-the-fuck out.
Because now they can lob way better missiles before they can nope the fuck out. It's not the planes, it's the bombs, EW packages, missiles, avionics, etc that they have that makes the difference.
Ukraine doesn't actually have any fox 3 at all and giving them a western fighter, any fighter, is to sling AMRAAM at cruise missiles and Russian fighters
>I know this is probably a smooth brain question but why does Ukraine want F-16's so bad?
Out of the box full interopability with all NATO munitions and much easier supply chain for NATO to provide (which they are depending upon).
>I mean, I get wanting planes but what is the utility they gain by having them?
They lost a lot of frams in the openning days of the war and have steadily lost even more. They need to replace them with something.
> As far as I know Russia saturates the shit out of the place with AA so what role does having jets serve?
Stand-offs and its now possible they will get HARMs and be able to do SEAD (possible, not a for sure).
>Ukraine is a defacto no-fly zone on both sides
Not true. Yes it is a very difficult enviroment but aviation very much still has a role to play. If nothing else, just having it to keep the Russians "honest" and prevent a surprise/desperate deep strike.
Compatibility with NATO air to x missiles that you don't have to jury rig to soviet aircraft and can use properly with its radar systems not pre planed mode with HARM and so on and also they are smaller on radars then mig-29 and su-27 so you know some breathing room till you're light up by a radar and have to dodge missiles
They really just want some of these. The F-16 is just a missile truck, they want the missiles that might come with it.
and we want to be able to give them those missiles as well. FrankenSAM is a cool program but ultimately the missiles were optimized for air-launch
Ukraine wants to do a few things with the F-16's.
1. Lob bombs/missiles at the Russian ground forces the same way Russia is launching shit at them. Russia will have the same trouble stopping it Ukraine does.
2. F-16 gives them access to a whole variety of junk in NATO storage to kill Russians without having to Jerry-rig their old Slavshit every time they want to do something new. Once Ukraine has the planes, the missiles and bombs might flow.
3. F-16's have access to some long range missiles (Ukraine might not get these) which can shoot down the Russian planes who are lobbing bombs. Ukraine might have to instead ask for the retiring French Mirages 2000's which also have a super long range Air-to-Air missile that NATO isn't worried about Russia copying.
4. Russia has a lot of anti-air, but you can still kill their RADARs units with HARMs shot from planes. Russia can't easily replace these systems so eventually you'd degrade their SAMs if you did it enough. Ukraine has some HARMs Jerry-rigged to their planes already but F-16 operates HARMs natively and can use more features to make them more effective
5. Even if you can't gain air superiority over the Russian air defenses for a while (if ever), it is still nice to assist your own SAM network by being able to fly F-16s to assist in shooting down missiles and planes.
6. Eventually their own planes will wear down, so they'll need something to replace them. The sooner they get started training pilots and ground crews, the quicker and smoother the transition.
7. F-16 in particular is very common plane and might be the easiest to get significant quantities of them. The best would be Grippen, but there aren't enough out there and Sweden isn't likely to give up their whole air force. F-16 is the most realistic.
8. F-16 is cheap to operate and maintain compared to the Slavshit they're using.
Pol cope status?
Check it yourself and stay there
Vipers will prey on s-300/s-400 like a pitbull in kindergarden, screencap this
can the F-16 sling Meteor’s?
F16 can effectively throw anything the west makes iirc.
They're all using the same rails, integration is probably not that difficult outside of code changes.
It's probably gonna be a whole bunch F-16A's and early F-16C's
I don't think Ukraine will get any AMRAAM's, instead they'll be used to get rid of NATO's old Fox 1 stock like Sparrows and Aspide
Some anon yesterday worked out that the countries that are gonna provide have a bunch of the old As so that is what they are going to get. It was the Dutch and the Belgians and one more I cannot remember.
probably Italy
No that wasn't it
Italy doesn't have any dipshit
Yeah you're right, I forgot that they only leased those and didn't buy them
Was over a decade ago too. Ready to feel old? Its been longer since they had them then the period in which they had them
They already have AIM-120 B for their NASAMS.