Why do I never see anyone taking advantage of the whole "high explosives under 1/4 oz are legal" thing?
7 grams of rdx in a shotgun slug would have significant effects on target, even smaller amounts would be cool in things like 45 as well.
>There would be no point
There's all sorts of meme shotgun loads, even some that claim to be "explosive" but are in fact usually an incendiary mix or even a primer shoved in there.
Did picrel use actual explosive compound?
What gives bros? I feel like I must be missing something.
Legal HE ammo?
Why do I never see anyone taking advantage of the whole "high explosives under 1/4 oz are legal" thing?
>Why do I never see anyone taking advantage of the whole "high explosives under 1/4 oz are legal" thing?
taking advantage of it to what end? if you use it on a person you're probably going to get royally fucked in a courtroom.
a slug with a quarter ounce of exploding shit would be a great large game load, especially if it were driving a steel core
There's not much of a benefit to it. People did in fact make high explosive slugs many decades ago during the days of black powder. They were used in large-bore rifles, usually even bigger than 12-bore. And they did work. The problem is that they didn't work any better than a normal bullet traveling at higher speed so they fell out of use.
Picrel is from The Gun and Its Development by W. W. Greener, which is over 100 years old. You can read the whole book online, it's out of copyright. The later pages give the HE formula they used back then and discusses its performance on animals.
Historically they were a good large game load. But a high velocity rifle was even better.
Here's another famous historical example:
>Among other weapons, I had an extraordinary rifle that carried a half-pound percussion shell—this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile; it only weighed twenty pounds: thus, with a charge of ten drachms [270 grains] of powder, behind a half-pound shell, the recoil was so terrific, that I spun around like a weathercock in a hurricane. I really dreaded my own rifle, although I had been accustomed to heavy charges of powder, and severe recoil for some years. None of my men could fire it, and it was looked upon with a species of awe, and it was named "Jenna-El-Mootfah" (Child of a Cannon) by the Arabs, which being far too long a name for practice, I christened it the "Baby;" and the scream of this "Baby" loaded with a half-pound shell was always fatal. It was far too severe, and I very seldom fired it, but it is a curious fact, that I never fired a shot with that rifle without bagging: the entire practice, during several years, was confined to about twenty shots. I was afraid to use it; but now and then it was absolutely necessary that it should be cleaned, after months of staying loaded. On such occasions my men had the gratification of firing it, and the explosion was always accompanied by two men falling on their backs (one having propped up the shooter), and the "Baby" flying some yards behind them. This rifle was made by Holland & Holland, of Bond Street, and I could highly recommend it for the Goliath of Gath, but not for the men of A.D. 1866.
>Sir Samuel White Baker, The Albert N'Yanza Great Basin Of The Nile
An example of the tools used to make the bullets, like style no. 3 or 4 shown in
I will now read your book.
>The Gun and Its Development by W. W. Greener
Nice data anon.
I don't understand why you guys act like 7g high explosive isn't enough to make a big difference in target damage, look at what this raufoss does to this brass at 4:16 compared to the other 50 loadings.
You didn't quote me, but I want to be clear I think an explosive shotgun slug can be tremendously lethal, and more armor piercing than any other shotgun slug, I only explained the limitations.
How does someone even legally get the stuff is what I wonder. Sure, 1/4 oz is legal, but I imagine having a larger stock of the stuff for supply would be a huge amount of red tape.
It's not quite true to say that 1/4 oz is legal. More specifically, 1/4 oz or under is not a DD. But that's just one part of the law. It's still subject to other laws regarding the storage and transportation of explosives. So either you have to find a way to comply with all that crap, or you'd have to treat it like binary targets aka tannerite, where you'd make it right before shooting it, that way the storage and transportation laws don't apply.
>"high explosives under 1/4 oz are legal" thing?
Because it’s not that simple. First that’s the federal law, some states are more restrictive. Yes even ones with good gun laws. Second, that doesn’t deal with storage and transport. Third there is a ton or red tape regarding the manufacture and storage of explosives. You or I can make some for personal use on our own land and it’s fine. But we can’t “legally” put it in a vehicle and drive somewhere else to use it. I assume it’s a big gray area like making your own AP rifle ammo. You can do it yourself, but you can’t buy certain calibers from a manufacturer.
Ignoring all of that, what’s the most effective say to use it. 1/4oz of explosive behind a copper cup like an EFP? Steel dart in front that’s propelled at high speed?
Yeah probably shaped charge or efp. They tend to pen about their diameter I think, which at 12ga would be a lot of steel.
With enough of the right explosive you can probably penetrate as much as 50mm, but 7 grams of anything isn't going to cut it.
It's going to be completely impossible to get adequate formation with a shotgun slug, you're too restricted in terms of length and diameter.
You can get a kind of simple "lensing" effect you might call a proto-EFP, but your penetration per diameter is going to be nowhere even in the same ballpark as a properly formed penetrator.
Even if you make a thin outer "shell" of the slug copper (to engage a rifled bore, and to fit more boomboom), and you use a little copper cone to try to get lensing?
Nonsense, you can get marginal jet/efp formation with much less HE, here its sorta working with a third of the legal maximum charge, just 2.5, of some likely non optimal explosive .
With triple the charge, a proper HE like rdx, and a long oal to ensure proper standoff, you could start to see some real shaped charge behavior.
You notice how that explosive is about three times the length of a shotgun slug, then has extra stilts on the front of it?
THAT is why it doesn't work the way you think it does. The increased demands on both warhead design from both housing and absolute hard length limit. It lowers the potential starting diameter of your cone, and absolutely inverts ideal standoff. You're forgetting that this has to fit inside something capable of surviving being fired out of a shotgun (the bomb in your video would have been turned to explosive confetti) and *that* has to fit inside a shotgun shell.
Pick up a shotgun slug from your house and actually think about the scale for a second, I assume you have one nearby.
There is a *reason* why when the military tried this they could barely get through half an inch of steel.
The problem with small HE is not some physical phenomenon. They just couldn't make small fuzes back in the day. Also spin messes with shaped charges.
Look at Raufoss. It has no detonator. All that HE is just moronified incendiary on impact. Look at M789. It's pathetic.
>spin messes with shaped charges
Yes. They use corrugated liner cope to somewhat mitigate it.
>40mm HEDP 76mm pen
>125mm RPG 1300mm pen
conservation of angular momentum is a bitch
Good news is, smoothbore shotguns are readily available, "all" you have to do is make it an aerodynamically-stable projectile in addition to everything else.
So some of those "fake explosive" slugs you're familiar with have actually been made into real explosive slugs just by filling the cavity with gunpowder or tannerite or something.
They explode when they hit something really hard, but just like with exploding arrows it can be difficult to get them to go off consistently when they hit soft tissue. The faster you shot them the less of a problem this would be, but then you're running into pressure limitations.
Supposedly FRAG-12 could punch through a 1/2 inch steel plate
Wangblows moronnet Exploder
I've made HE 12g rounds before.
Same damage as an equivilant slug.
What kind of HE did you use?
Why can't it be SHE ammo? Or XIR ammo? Why does it have to be gendered at all?
retards stuck in 2016 that think they're being remotely clever or funny
If only you knew how bad it will become. Mark my words.
The fusing system on 12Gauge anti-armor would be a bitch and a half. HEAT is hard enough but EFP would be downright impossible. All you can get is impact-induced high explosion. In Raufoss, the explosion is there to assist the high velocity tungsten.
You can get a sub optimal focused explosive fairly easily, FRAG-12 penetrated way under "ideal" but more than simply hucking HE.
Do these frag 12 shells ever come up for sale, even rarely?
No they were a niche military experiment. Real "solution looking for a problem" waste of money, but objectively cool.
A lot of those explosive rounds are lead acetate stuffed in a hollow point. They were extremely inconsistent about detonating against flesh (reagan would have died if they worked) because just filling a bullet with a sensitive primer compound was the cheapest and easiest way to provide explosives that had a chance of detonating. More sophisticated explosive bullets use a steel penetrator in the tail pushing into a compound on impact to initiate explosion when it hits a hard target which again would be useless against people. You'd basically need some extremely sensitive fuze that takes up most of the bullet's volume to make them reliable against soft targets all for an explosive effect that is basically nonexistent. And because you stuffed the bullets with sensitive explosive they now store like shit and are much more dangerous to handle.
Very interesting, thank you anon. Is LA used in primers a high or low explosive?
Sorry I meant lead azide and it's a primary explosive just too sensitive to use in large amounts.
Mercury fulminate, the first primer compound, was used by the british for bomb filler in their war in afghanistan and Nobel used it as a primary explosive but also just a standalone blasting powder.