Based, he was spreading biodiversity. Grafting leads to monocultures which are prone to disease and of course new varieties aren't discovered because there is no reproduction going on.
what would happen if now that its winter, I sprout a bunch of apple seed and grow them in my greenhouse ?
Will they just have one really long season?
I need to plant several hundred new trees in the next few years and I am itching to get started
Also peach seads I have as well
>Will they just have one really long season?
Yes, I'm pretty sure you dont need to worry about dormancy periods and winter rest until they're already bearing fruit
>since Chapman was against grafting, his apples were not of an edible variety
Ignorant slandering of one of the most based historical figures aside, the constant parroting of the lie that you can't grow anything from seed and get good results pisses me off to no end. If any of these people had just planted a seed one time in their worthless lives they would immediately see what bullshit they've been parroting. Especially if it's some trash supermarket apple like red delicious they'd be almost guaranteed to get something better than they started with, since half the genes would be from something other than red delicious.
I have an antique abandoned orchard on my property. Over the years many apple and pear seedlings have come up an matured
None of the fruit is edible
The pears in particular taste amazingly astringent like an unripe persimmon
None of the apples are sweet and have varying off flavors
These are all offspring of very old varietals that were quite tasty
Now i have watched youtube videos of people doing their onw apple trees from seed and having luck so maybe something has changed in the new apple varieties?
But I can tell you that the apples and pears in my orchard would be eaten by no one but bears
Are there a bunch of ornamental crabs or pears growing nearby that would pollinate yours? Those are deliberately bred to have small, nasty fruit because boomers can't be bothered to pick their apples up. Are you sure they are really seedlings and not suckers from rootstocks? Are the parent trees any good?
If you are growing seed from two good parents, you are pretty likely to get something "fine" even if it's not "good".
>If you are growing seed from two good parents, you are pretty likely to get something "fine" even if it's not "good"
This is the opposite of what Pollen asserts.
Was he just making shit up? I find that hard to believe
[...]
If you cross two good parents you COULD get something nice, but it's like playing the lottery. If you have the necessary knowledge in botany and horticulture , lots of time and a nice big farm and breeding greenhouse where you can experiment with hundreds of seedlings in a controlled environment then yeah odds are decent that you're going to get something worthwhile sooner or later but if you're just planing seeds from grocery store apples in your backyard then good luck with that.
>Bro the apples will be bad or something!
I've heard this so many times, I've even had people insist that an apple was a crab apple and also poisonous despite it being a normal apple grown from seed that tasted fine.
I rarely get an inedible apple, they are usually pretty good. They also can mature at wierd times so it's probably just morons picking them at the wrong time and saying they're bad
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I rarely get an inedible apple
How many trees have you grown from seed?
1 year ago
Anonymous
None, I go camping a lot and try every apple I see, even when they're not in season.
There are wild apple trees everywhere in new york state. Usually apples grown from seed are small and sour but not "inedible" by any means.
These are apples left behind by smaller farmers, not exactly "commercial" apple growers who have groves of thousands of trees but the apples I find out in the middle of the woods tend to be fairly good anyway.
I assume that if you grow them from seed to make more seed apples like in
So anyways, how do they discover new apple varieties if apples grown from seed are always LE BAD? You can look this up yourself.
>This guy crossbreeds apples >Selects the apples that have appealing traits and could potentially turn into something good >Basically ALL of the apples from seed are edible >He hardly ever has an apple that is extremely sour and "inedible"
I mean, you can just look up sneedling apple taste tests, these are apples grown from seed and not grafted onto prime rootstock, they just crossbreed a couple apples and plant them in rows to hopefully discover an apple worthy of making a new breed.
And guess what? Most of the apples are edible and taste good, an inedible one is extremely rare. Look up any apple seedling tastings, they are almost all good.
the rate of getting good apples is much higher.
>Most of the "good ones" are recessive traits that disappear when crossbred
That's not how it works. A recessive gene being expressed means it is homozygous in that plant. The child is guaranteed to receive that gene. If both parents are expressing a recessive gene, the child is 100% going to have it too.
It's true that apples tend to cross pollinate, so the offspring tend to be different from the parents. But if you collect your seed from an orchard where they are surrounded by other quality apples, even open pollinated seeds should get a decent mix of genes. >muh Fuji
mediocre apple
If you cross two good parents you COULD get something nice, but it's like playing the lottery. If you have the necessary knowledge in botany and horticulture , lots of time and a nice big farm and breeding greenhouse where you can experiment with hundreds of seedlings in a controlled environment then yeah odds are decent that you're going to get something worthwhile sooner or later but if you're just planing seeds from grocery store apples in your backyard then good luck with that.
[...]
If you cross two good parents you COULD get something nice, but it's like playing the lottery. If you have the necessary knowledge in botany and horticulture , lots of time and a nice big farm and breeding greenhouse where you can experiment with hundreds of seedlings in a controlled environment then yeah odds are decent that you're going to get something worthwhile sooner or later but if you're just planing seeds from grocery store apples in your backyard then good luck with that.
If you're planting one tree in your backyard then sure, plant a sweet 16 grafted onto whatever the latest patented dwarf rootstock is, because you have one chance . But the idea that you'll probably get something bad or indedible is nonsense. You will most likely get something that is not spectacular and not bad, just average. You don't just undo thousands of years of selection with a single cross. The biggest risk is that it will be particularly susceptible to some disease and die young or make "ugly" fruit.
Apple trees from seed will almost all bear sub-par and wildtype fruit. They tend to be small, sour, and good only for making cider. They're edible, but they'll make you long for a proper McIntosh red or a Fuji.
It's a consequence of apple genetics. There's two things to know about this:
1. You get a random selection of apple genetics from both parents. Two good parents will probably yield something marginally better than two poor parents, but even that isn't guaranteed. You have a strong change of getting a tree with tiny sour fruit. Applies do not grow true to type and they do not have a lot of desirable and dominant fruit genes. Most of the "good ones" are recessive traits that disappear when crossbred. This means breeding for new apple varieties is time (and money) intensive.
2. Apples cannot self-pollinate. Because all typed varieties [e.g. Fuji] are close to genetically identical, they cannot and will never be able to pollinate other trees of the same variety. If you're thinking of growing apple trees, you should know that you need at leas two different varieties, preferably three, because without a second type of apple to pollinate with, your apple tree will yield no fruit.
>Sub-par and wild type fruit only good for making cider
City slicker opinion, as someone who grew up on an apple farm this is literally not true. The apples will be small and maybe a little more sour than normal but will taste fine >Bro they aren't the store apples!
Boohoo, gonna cry? I can't imagine being so spoiled that a wild apple is considered "inedible" and bad tasting most of the time.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Just shut up and buy apple flavored Onions (contains no apples).
1 year ago
Anonymous
>as someone who grew up on an apple farm
Why is your apple farm producing random crossbred trees?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Not him but I imagine they grew wild stock for grafting.
>Most of the "good ones" are recessive traits that disappear when crossbred
That's not how it works. A recessive gene being expressed means it is homozygous in that plant. The child is guaranteed to receive that gene. If both parents are expressing a recessive gene, the child is 100% going to have it too.
It's true that apples tend to cross pollinate, so the offspring tend to be different from the parents. But if you collect your seed from an orchard where they are surrounded by other quality apples, even open pollinated seeds should get a decent mix of genes. >muh Fuji
mediocre apple
>because boomers can't be bothered to pick their apples up
It's mostly because small apples are more decorative than large ones, they tend to be more numerous and colorful and don't alter the shape of the branches. They're also better for wildlife. >If you are growing seed from two good parents, you are pretty likely to get something "fine" even if it's not "good"
Not really. Apple trees that are born from natural pollination are always closer to the wild form than their parents, even if both are edible cultivated varieties.
Granny smith is a rare example of edible cultivar derived from natural pollination, and it's extremely tart and sour compared to the average cultivar.
>Granny smith is a rare example of edible cultivar derived from natural pollination
Not rare at all. Braeburn, Golden Delicious, Red Delicious, McIntosh, Spy, and so on. Until very recently most of the popular cultivars were "discovered" rather than deliberately bred.
Also I don't think you understand what "edible" means. I have never heard of an apple that wasn't edible, though I've had a few I would prefer not to eat. >it's extremely tart and sour compared to the average cultivar.
It was selected for those characteristics. Not all apples are table apples.
>Granny smith is a rare example of edible cultivar derived from natural pollination, and it's extremely tart and sour compared to the average cultivar.
Because it's for baking
>None of the fruit is edible
Definitivt edible.
There are many varieties that are either meant to be cooked or bred for long term storage. Some apples ripen in December/January after spending a few months in a celler.
Most older varieties of fruits were meant to be baked or bottled, rather than eaten raw.
Try baking them next fall and see if you aren't pleased with the results.
apples and pear have a lot of variability
so a lot of the seedlings will be shitty
but there are some older russian varieties that come fairly true from seed like antonovka
orchards seed would have worse success ratevwith seedlings because the pollinators and the graft stock are usually crabapples
If you're planting them everywhere you might as well grow them from seed, grafting is only needed if you want to get a specific type and have it do a specific thing. >Plant thousands of trees by seed >They all have different characteristics >Might get an amazing one, will definitely have some average or shitty ones >Through this more and bettle apple varieties are made
Grafting isn't worth it when you're just spreading the apples around. Better to gamble and hope to have a great apple that's worth spreading than an average one.
So anyways, how do they discover new apple varieties if apples grown from seed are always LE BAD? You can look this up yourself.
>This guy crossbreeds apples >Selects the apples that have appealing traits and could potentially turn into something good >Basically ALL of the apples from seed are edible >He hardly ever has an apple that is extremely sour and "inedible"
I mean, you can just look up sneedling apple taste tests, these are apples grown from seed and not grafted onto prime rootstock, they just crossbreed a couple apples and plant them in rows to hopefully discover an apple worthy of making a new breed.
And guess what? Most of the apples are edible and taste good, an inedible one is extremely rare. Look up any apple seedling tastings, they are almost all good.
Based, he was spreading biodiversity. Grafting leads to monocultures which are prone to disease and of course new varieties aren't discovered because there is no reproduction going on.
>new varieties aren't discovered
you are moronic and a Black person
what would happen if now that its winter, I sprout a bunch of apple seed and grow them in my greenhouse ?
Will they just have one really long season?
I need to plant several hundred new trees in the next few years and I am itching to get started
Also peach seads I have as well
>Will they just have one really long season?
Yes, I'm pretty sure you dont need to worry about dormancy periods and winter rest until they're already bearing fruit
God I remember when that shit was pushed everywhere from some book with an abusive drunk woman.
>it's Johnny Appleseed's fault I'm a drunk
>since Chapman was against grafting, his apples were not of an edible variety
Ignorant slandering of one of the most based historical figures aside, the constant parroting of the lie that you can't grow anything from seed and get good results pisses me off to no end. If any of these people had just planted a seed one time in their worthless lives they would immediately see what bullshit they've been parroting. Especially if it's some trash supermarket apple like red delicious they'd be almost guaranteed to get something better than they started with, since half the genes would be from something other than red delicious.
I have an antique abandoned orchard on my property. Over the years many apple and pear seedlings have come up an matured
None of the fruit is edible
The pears in particular taste amazingly astringent like an unripe persimmon
None of the apples are sweet and have varying off flavors
These are all offspring of very old varietals that were quite tasty
Now i have watched youtube videos of people doing their onw apple trees from seed and having luck so maybe something has changed in the new apple varieties?
But I can tell you that the apples and pears in my orchard would be eaten by no one but bears
Are there a bunch of ornamental crabs or pears growing nearby that would pollinate yours? Those are deliberately bred to have small, nasty fruit because boomers can't be bothered to pick their apples up. Are you sure they are really seedlings and not suckers from rootstocks? Are the parent trees any good?
If you are growing seed from two good parents, you are pretty likely to get something "fine" even if it's not "good".
>If you are growing seed from two good parents, you are pretty likely to get something "fine" even if it's not "good"
This is the opposite of what Pollen asserts.
Was he just making shit up? I find that hard to believe
>Pollen
Pollan rather
>Bro the apples will be bad or something!
I've heard this so many times, I've even had people insist that an apple was a crab apple and also poisonous despite it being a normal apple grown from seed that tasted fine.
I rarely get an inedible apple, they are usually pretty good. They also can mature at wierd times so it's probably just morons picking them at the wrong time and saying they're bad
>I rarely get an inedible apple
How many trees have you grown from seed?
None, I go camping a lot and try every apple I see, even when they're not in season.
There are wild apple trees everywhere in new york state. Usually apples grown from seed are small and sour but not "inedible" by any means.
These are apples left behind by smaller farmers, not exactly "commercial" apple growers who have groves of thousands of trees but the apples I find out in the middle of the woods tend to be fairly good anyway.
I assume that if you grow them from seed to make more seed apples like in
the rate of getting good apples is much higher.
>Fuji
>Mediocre
Yeah, extremely generic apple.
If you cross two good parents you COULD get something nice, but it's like playing the lottery. If you have the necessary knowledge in botany and horticulture , lots of time and a nice big farm and breeding greenhouse where you can experiment with hundreds of seedlings in a controlled environment then yeah odds are decent that you're going to get something worthwhile sooner or later but if you're just planing seeds from grocery store apples in your backyard then good luck with that.
>Was he just making shit up?
yeah
If you're planting one tree in your backyard then sure, plant a sweet 16 grafted onto whatever the latest patented dwarf rootstock is, because you have one chance . But the idea that you'll probably get something bad or indedible is nonsense. You will most likely get something that is not spectacular and not bad, just average. You don't just undo thousands of years of selection with a single cross. The biggest risk is that it will be particularly susceptible to some disease and die young or make "ugly" fruit.
Apple trees from seed will almost all bear sub-par and wildtype fruit. They tend to be small, sour, and good only for making cider. They're edible, but they'll make you long for a proper McIntosh red or a Fuji.
It's a consequence of apple genetics. There's two things to know about this:
1. You get a random selection of apple genetics from both parents. Two good parents will probably yield something marginally better than two poor parents, but even that isn't guaranteed. You have a strong change of getting a tree with tiny sour fruit. Applies do not grow true to type and they do not have a lot of desirable and dominant fruit genes. Most of the "good ones" are recessive traits that disappear when crossbred. This means breeding for new apple varieties is time (and money) intensive.
2. Apples cannot self-pollinate. Because all typed varieties [e.g. Fuji] are close to genetically identical, they cannot and will never be able to pollinate other trees of the same variety. If you're thinking of growing apple trees, you should know that you need at leas two different varieties, preferably three, because without a second type of apple to pollinate with, your apple tree will yield no fruit.
>Sub-par and wild type fruit only good for making cider
City slicker opinion, as someone who grew up on an apple farm this is literally not true. The apples will be small and maybe a little more sour than normal but will taste fine
>Bro they aren't the store apples!
Boohoo, gonna cry? I can't imagine being so spoiled that a wild apple is considered "inedible" and bad tasting most of the time.
Just shut up and buy apple flavored Onions (contains no apples).
>as someone who grew up on an apple farm
Why is your apple farm producing random crossbred trees?
Not him but I imagine they grew wild stock for grafting.
>Most of the "good ones" are recessive traits that disappear when crossbred
That's not how it works. A recessive gene being expressed means it is homozygous in that plant. The child is guaranteed to receive that gene. If both parents are expressing a recessive gene, the child is 100% going to have it too.
It's true that apples tend to cross pollinate, so the offspring tend to be different from the parents. But if you collect your seed from an orchard where they are surrounded by other quality apples, even open pollinated seeds should get a decent mix of genes.
>muh Fuji
mediocre apple
>because boomers can't be bothered to pick their apples up
It's mostly because small apples are more decorative than large ones, they tend to be more numerous and colorful and don't alter the shape of the branches. They're also better for wildlife.
>If you are growing seed from two good parents, you are pretty likely to get something "fine" even if it's not "good"
Not really. Apple trees that are born from natural pollination are always closer to the wild form than their parents, even if both are edible cultivated varieties.
Granny smith is a rare example of edible cultivar derived from natural pollination, and it's extremely tart and sour compared to the average cultivar.
>Granny smith is a rare example of edible cultivar derived from natural pollination
Not rare at all. Braeburn, Golden Delicious, Red Delicious, McIntosh, Spy, and so on. Until very recently most of the popular cultivars were "discovered" rather than deliberately bred.
Also I don't think you understand what "edible" means. I have never heard of an apple that wasn't edible, though I've had a few I would prefer not to eat.
>it's extremely tart and sour compared to the average cultivar.
It was selected for those characteristics. Not all apples are table apples.
>Granny smith is a rare example of edible cultivar derived from natural pollination, and it's extremely tart and sour compared to the average cultivar.
Because it's for baking
>None of the fruit is edible
Definitivt edible.
There are many varieties that are either meant to be cooked or bred for long term storage. Some apples ripen in December/January after spending a few months in a celler.
Most older varieties of fruits were meant to be baked or bottled, rather than eaten raw.
Try baking them next fall and see if you aren't pleased with the results.
apples and pear have a lot of variability
so a lot of the seedlings will be shitty
but there are some older russian varieties that come fairly true from seed like antonovka
orchards seed would have worse success ratevwith seedlings because the pollinators and the graft stock are usually crabapples
If you're planting them everywhere you might as well grow them from seed, grafting is only needed if you want to get a specific type and have it do a specific thing.
>Plant thousands of trees by seed
>They all have different characteristics
>Might get an amazing one, will definitely have some average or shitty ones
>Through this more and bettle apple varieties are made
Grafting isn't worth it when you're just spreading the apples around. Better to gamble and hope to have a great apple that's worth spreading than an average one.
So anyways, how do they discover new apple varieties if apples grown from seed are always LE BAD? You can look this up yourself.
>This guy crossbreeds apples
>Selects the apples that have appealing traits and could potentially turn into something good
>Basically ALL of the apples from seed are edible
>He hardly ever has an apple that is extremely sour and "inedible"
I mean, you can just look up sneedling apple taste tests, these are apples grown from seed and not grafted onto prime rootstock, they just crossbreed a couple apples and plant them in rows to hopefully discover an apple worthy of making a new breed.
And guess what? Most of the apples are edible and taste good, an inedible one is extremely rare. Look up any apple seedling tastings, they are almost all good.
>cringe
If you use technology just embrace it. That pic is awful too. Stop romanticizing agriculture. It destroys nature.