Japan, Britain and Italy are expected to reach a formal agreement in December to develop a next-generation fighter jet that will be used by the Air Self-Defense Force, Japanese government sources said.
Japan plans to deploy the new fighters by around 2035, when the ASDF’s current F-2s will start to retire.
The airframe of the new fighters will be mainly developed by Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. (MHI) and BAE Systems Plc, a major British defense contractor. Italian aviation and defense company Leonardo SpA will join in this part of the project, the sources said.
Japan’s IHI Corp., Britain’s Rolls-Royce Plc and Italy’s Avio SpA will develop the engine.
The Japanese and British governments, at a meeting in May, agreed to come up with a collaboration outline by the end of 2022. The two countries have planned to develop next-generation fighter jets with “stealth” ability and technology for coordination with drones. ***
Italy, which had discussed fighter jet development with Britain, later joined the talks with Japan.
Plans were floated to have British Prime Minister Liz Truss visit Japan in early December to sign the collaboration agreement. But her abrupt resignation scrapped that plan.
Japan, Italy and Britain are making arrangements to announce the agreement, possibly online, in December, the Japanese sources said. ***
After the agreement is signed, Japan’s Defense Ministry will include the development costs in the initial budget for fiscal 2023.
Prime Minister Fumio Kishida and British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak had a chat on Nov. 16 in Bali. They agreed to accelerate discussions on outlining and announcing their cooperation on the next-generation fighter jet.
At the end of 2018, the Japanese government decided on its Mid-Term Defense Program, which said the country will promptly embark on Japan-led development of a next-generation fighter with a view toward global cooperation.
The Defense Ministry in 2020 chose MHI as a core developer of the new jet, as well as Lockheed Martin Corp. of the United States for technical support.
But the talks became tangled after Japan asked for a degree of freedom in terms of renovation and information disclosure because it wants to export the jets in the future.
The United Sates showed reluctance, citing confidentiality in defense and security information. Ultimately, Japan switched to Britain as a partner to develop fighter jets. ***
The Japanese government said joint development by the three nations will reduce costs and help to broaden the market for exports.
To expand its scope of acceptable exports to include the aircraft, the Japanese government is expected to revise the guidelines in the “Three Principles of Transfer of Defense Equipment and Technology.”
Under current guidelines, finished products that can be exported are limited to “rescue, transport, vigilance, monitoring and minesweeping.”
The ruling Liberal Democratic Party is expected to discuss a widening of the categories with junior coalition partner Komeito, which has maintained a cautious stance on the issue. The government wants the jet development project to give a boost to the domestic defense industry.
> https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14771484
some further reading from the Royal United Services Institute
https://static.rusi.org/OP_356_Tempest_Programme_final_web1.pdf
Implessive lmfao
Wasn't Sweden in on it too?
Sweden will just look over their shoulders and make stealth Gripen
Sweden is a fairly junior partner compared to the others, would probably be announced afterwards/seperately.
Tempest is already formalised.
Japan will take the engines and data and use it to make their own 6th gen similar to how the F-2 program heavily derived from the F-16.
Sweden will probably do something similar to Japan. Although they'll probably have a greater addition to Tempest's EW suite as Ericcson and Siemens are goated with the sauce.
They've decided to step back from the project until Britain, Italy and Japan figure out a concrete arrangement.
IIRC the only agreement so far was to develop a a set of technology demonstrators not a production prototype, and Sweden didn't want it to just be another nEUROn
How much do you think it will be a failure?
>How much do you think it will be a failure?
The frogs aren't involved so it won't be
>The frogs aren't involved so it won't be
or germans
Name 5 UK-led military joint ventures that ended up as failures
The Republic of India
Name one that was not
Gallipolli, Suez, 1922 Turkish revolution, Crimean war, Archangel mission
I doubt it'll be a failure. But if it takes this many countries to get something into a prototype phase then mass production will start around the time Skunk Works reveals its third generation AI-driven anti gravity drone carrier.
If they are planning 2035, that means 2040 likely. Meanwhile, the U.S. will probably have something in the sky by 2030 that is twice as advanced.
>f2
>eurofighter
>m-346
anyone impressed by any of the above? shit, the m-346 is probably the most successful of the three and that says a lot.
at absolute best, the result would be a 5.5 gen that is delayed 5 years
but realistically, it will be an f-35 clone that is delayed 10 years
don’t get me started on “export potential”, my sides can only take so much.
>f-35 clone
No, it won't be multirole like that.
It's gonna be a slightly more modern F-22.
>f-35 clone
It is explicitly an F-2 replacement. Why would they waste money developing another F-35 when the UK, Italy, and Japan are all major partners of the F-35 program? (in Japan's case, they are officially customers, but they're restroactively taking on a partner-like role)
>this isn't the 80s
You have no idea what you are talking about. The 80s was probably when Japanese aerospace was at its weakest.
One failed project doesn't stop JAXA from being the most competent space program today outside of America.
Whats wrong with Eurofighter? Its not a bad aircraft, its just not been battle proven. But then lots of 'good' planes haven't been either. It wouldn't perform against stuff like the F-22, but then its not supposed to.
what is right with it? it has no edge over its competition
rafale and f-15 outperform it
f-16, gripen, and fa-50 are cheaper with most of the capabilities
quality vs quantity is one thing but the eurofighter is neither
Wow, so much wrong with this I don't know where to start. Will put you down as a butthurt troll, FCAS by 2050 ammirite? Spain stronk partner lol
> rafale and f-15 outperform it
ok
> f-16, gripen, and fa-50 are cheaper with most of the capabilities
ok
Typhoon rapes F-15 in every test. They beat the shit out of them in every joint exercise.
Costs on par with F-22 due to the massively decentralized production process and is critically deficient in the ground strike role.
Also they're only just now starting to recieve AESA radars, so about two decades behind the curve there as well.
>critically deficient in the ground strike role
literally wot
The Eurofighter is easily the best gen 4 fighter, to where it even has gen 5 capabilities like super cruise.
The Eurofighter is the best non-American fighter around
>F-35 clone
All three of those countries already operate F-35s, idiot
In fact they're the most involved countries outside of the USA; the UK contributes something like 10, 15% of every F-35 ever built, while Italy and Japan both manufacture and maintain F-35s as the designated regional hubs for the programme
For some strange reason, German MIC preferred F-18, maybe the F-18 agent paid out more kickbacks. But when Russia started piling into Ukraine and Germans realised they might actually need a proper deterrent, they quickly switched to F-35. That tells you a lot about which aircraft they consider superior.
France are ornery and want to maintain their own MIC. So they cucked themselves out of the F-35 and still retain their silly Mirages. Frick em.
Spain has no money.
>Meteors your Rafale and F-15
heh, nothing personnel
> the specifications required by all countries must be the same
this, and no allowing MIC to get in the way of inferior product
>What kind of fighters do they want?
Same; air combat capability, datalinks, stealth, multi-role strike because every jet does that now
Italy made a mistake going with FREMM; Type 45 was better
>The Eurofighter is the best non-American fighter around
Maybe, but the Rafale is effectively just as good and I think its cringe as frick when you europeans have pissing contests about what are basically 2 very similar and capable planes.
Facts are facts. The Rafale originated from the Eurofighter programme, but France wasn't happy with the pace of development and workshare (French MIC being what it is), so they fricked off and made their own thing ie Rafale.
Typhoon came later, and as a result, makes use of slightly more advanced technologies and its design is also more upgradeable. Also, it has the Meteor BVRAAM, which was a part of the Eurofighter programme.
I thought he meant Horizon originally, my mistake then
>The Rafale originated from the Eurofighter programme
I'm aware.
>Typhoon came later
We really out here pretending that a couple of years led to radically different techbases?
>its design is also more upgradeable
It very well might be, we'll see. But as of now they perform nearly identically in most metrics (please note I used "nearly" and not "exactly")
>Also, it has the Meteor BVRAAM
So does the Rafale
>which was a part of the Eurofighter programme.
You are mistaken.
> But as of now they perform nearly identically in most metrics
for starter, CAPTOR-E is much more advanced than RBE2
May I see it?
>Not "radically", but not insignificantly either.
Feels like we are splitting hairs then, I'll decline to follow this line further if you have no objections.
>For one, the Typhoon is slightly bigger, it has greater usable internal volume. Already AESA radar upgrades are locked in. The engines may be upgraded too, depending.
You failed to quote the next line. Allow me to present it again. "But as of now they perform nearly identically in most metrics" That "but as of now" part is pretty important...some would say the entire point being made.
>Am not.
Then it should be easy for you to demonstrate. Please.
> May I see it?
off the top of my head, CAPTOR-E is gimbaling and has about twice the T/R modules
>off the top of my head
...
what?
he asked to see it dipshit
not for you to claim more shit with no proof
play dumb somewhere else
>show me technical details about these bleeding edge radars
sure
this is the best available to the general public
https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/08.airborne/karte041.en.html
https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/08.airborne/karte048.en.html
>show me technical details about these bleeding edge radars
Surely you got your info from somewhere to be able to make the claim that one was superior to the other. Why are you suddenly unable to provide anything? I know, its a real bother when people actually want something more than the word of a random anonymous poster; how inconvenient!
did you just conveniently ignore the two links I posted
besides, look at any fricking picture of them
it’s self explanatory, really
>just believe me bro
>its totally how I say it is bro
>why don't you trust me bro
Nah, man. I'm good, you have a goodnight.
frick
off
Black person
https://www.key.aero/article/depth-look-eurofighters-next-gen-radar
I don't think you get to be indignant when he asks for a source multiple times and you don't post it until after he leaves or claims he did)
maybe cause my source is literally one google search away? like use your eyeball mk.1
newbies don’t know about the era of lmgtfy spam I swear
thanks, frankly I just gave up on the twat
Link it or shove it
>a couple of years led to radically different techbases
Not "radically", but not insignificantly either.
>It very well might be, we'll see
For one, the Typhoon is slightly bigger, it has greater usable internal volume. Already AESA radar upgrades are locked in. The engines may be upgraded too, depending.
>You are mistaken
Am not.
> Italy made a mistake going with FREMM; Type 45 was better
I’m curious to hear the reason, FREMM is seeing quite a the success in export
yeah
Horizon is the equivalent of Type 45 not FREMM.
Yes. So what I meant was operational range.
The Japanese aircraft has a MTOW of over 20 tons and could be the largest (and probably the most expensive) fighter in the world, surpassing the F-22.
As long as the UK and Italy are members of NATO, fighters don't need that much operational range.
Thus, it may be more successful if components (radar, other sensors, missiles, engines, etc.) are common and airframes are separate.
FCAS gays on suicide watch
Islands, empires and ikea gang 4eva
The Axis are back in town?
> The Axis are back in town?
Britain was in the Axis??
> Wasn't Sweden in on it too?
> FCAS gays on suicide watch
> Islands, empires and ikea gang 4eva
Japan parted ways with the US because of potential conflicts-of-interest when it comes to export. So there's no way France, Germany and Sweden are touching this project either.
Because the American itar rules are a joke
> Because the American itar rules are a joke
It's not just that. Germany, France and Sweden have their own formal and informal embargoes on countries because of domestic politics. The same goes from Belgium and the Netherlands, as well as the US.
Case in point: The very weapons they'll sell to Arab dictatorships they won't sell to Turkey. Britain's restriction is against Argentina but they're open to most other viable customers.
> Tempest member countries are buying F-35s, UK, Japan, and Italy.
> FCAS member countries are not, Germany, France, and Spain.
Spain needs to dump France and Germany for anything they hope to export. The geopolitics of the world is very different than what's on paper, and Spain and Italy have found out.
>It's not going to look like that,
I just added whatever image I found would be an eye-grabbing thumbnail.
>Britain was in the Axis
They are now. Everyone thought this time without Italy, but think again
>world wars won by Germany: 0
>world wars won by Italy: 2
it’s all making sense now
Very cool. Japan's defense industry is awesome. I'm glad to see that they have been investing more in their own military in recent years. I wonder what they will come out with next.
Lmfao not a single military weapon developed in almost 100 years
in other news, the jap probe failed to land on the moon
this isnt the 80’s. jap aerospace is a fricking joke
They launched a probe to the moon?
>tried
part of artemis 1. so the japs cant even take credit for the successful launch
You know that they have multiple successful launch vehicle programs, right?
They did a sample-return from an asteroid. Don't think some cheap moon lander affects the success of Japanese aerospace
Because SLS was delayed for months with sats sitting there and draining batteries.
>British ingenuity
>Jap science
>Italian aesthetics
I'M COOMING
So do the Japanese scrapped the F-X/F-3 program for this or are they still doing that too?
For pride's sake they'll say it's still being worked on despite remaining in the early test phase for the better part of a decade. Lord knows they don't want to scrap it entirely after sinking so much time and money into it.
The public outcry would be devastating, especially with the Japanese being less enthused about their taxes going towards military funding.
This the progression of that project. They were saying a few months back that they were considering whether to go ahead as-is or roll it into a new program with the UK.
This program should be a win-win-win for those involved.
It's not going to look like that, it'll be much closer to the tempest images/models we've been seeing for 4 years. They have been very consistent with the modular internal space.
will it? this is official art from the Italian Air Force
>tail
lmao
very 1990s.
Tails are pretty much required for sustained supersonic flight and long range in a smaller aircaft.
This has a lot more in common with the tempest wind tunnel models we've seen than it does the placeholder cgi fx images.
Now, the odd sign.
Tempest member countries are buying F-35s, UK, Japan, and Italy.
FCAS member countries are not, Germany, France, and Spain.
Germany has ordered F-35A
spain's almost certainly going to buy some f-35bs because the alternative is retiring their carrier without replacement
government's been quietly walking back their no-f35s stance for a while
When we look at past history, we realize that there is a condition for successful international joint development: the specifications required by all countries must be the same.
The specifications of the fighter the Japanese want are known: long range to avoid Chinese BMs, integration of their own ASMs, aircombat capability over the J-20 and J-31, coop with F-35, and more.
It will probably be a stealthified Mig-31 or F-111-like aircraft.
But I'm not sure what fighter the British and Italians want.
What kind of fighters do they want?
>But I'm not sure what fighter the British and Italians want.
>What kind of fighters do they want?
Its going to be a cheaper version on hte F-35B/modern Harrier. All 3 are pivoting towards emphasizing power projection and jump carriers are the easy/cheap way to do that.
the f-35b is new and the tornado and eurofighter are old
>tornado is old
I don’t care
it must stay in service 100 more years
god its gorgeous
>Japan, Britain and Italy
kino alliance
now that I think of it, did Italy ever had a joint military project that turned out to be unsuccessful/bad? the only stinker I can think of is the NH90
Italians have even done the unpossible and had a successful cooperation with le frogs (FREMM)
Aster too
SAMP/T as well
>did Italy ever had a joint military project that turned out to be unsuccessful/bad?
The North Africa campaign?
kek, but tbf it was an Italian operation first that went to shit so then the Germans had to be brought in.
technically it wasn’t even an Italian operation
>Italy present in Lybia since 1934
>Britain present in Egypt since late XIX century
>Italy joins axis
>British Egypt attacks Italian Lybia
double post lol!
Will it have adaptive cycle engines? I know rolls royce were working on one before usa chose pratt/GE
Almost assuredly. Its just going to be what we have always seen of late: Europeans take the burger tech and made a n.5 gen version of the plane they buy from them with all the latest bells and whistles. It'll be decent and it'll be affordable, just this time the Japanese are getting in on the action. That'll probably be a good thing for all involved but we'll have to wait and see. As a burger though, I have to say I'm all for it, We usually make the best shit but sometimes y'all allied peeps have good ideas and make useful shit. ie Javelin is tight as frick but there is no doubting that the NLAW can do serious work as well; Ukraine easily showed that.
>the f-35b is new
And in 2040 it'll be starting to show some age. Its like you haven't noticed that this is what they always do.
what the frick are these wings lmao
sex
pelican
I don't know how bongs got from this
to this, but thanks Queen they did
You got bonged
You're blind then
Or maybe you are?
You realise that
are BAE models from summer this year with zero Japanese input? The only significant changes between that and the original model is the trailing edge of the wing. Unlike the OP image (which is a cgi placeholder not a real design) which has entirely different wings with pretty much every aspect of the wing different, most notably the cranked leading edge/intake cover. Also has a very different fuselage with clearly smaller weapons bays.
Take a look at
again, and compare it with this abomination
They are two different designs, and the former have more in common with F-3 than with the later
Are you moronic or just refusing to see the design evolution? The latest BAE mockups have NO Japanese input.
Go get your eyes checked.
You're obviously just a troll
Tempest
and more
new tempest mockup
and more
these two are similar
this one is different
this one is moronic
Japanese F-X