Instead of Bong-Germ team with their ugly Typhoon. Joint Italian-French projects are always cool. But now, in order to see the Italian-French fighter, we will have to wait for the 6th generation...
Italy should have joined France in the development of Rafale
give all that euro shit to Ukraine and get F35s
>deliberately impair the combat capability of your own army
ngmi
The only ones who operate the Rafale are the French (who operate it out of a sense of national pride), Egypt, Greece, India and Qatar.
Croatia, Indonesia and UAE all have purchases on order though. To me this seems like the Rafale is just the Budget choice for planes, well actually no that's not true the F-35A is significantly cheaper at this point in time. So it's basically only the top choice of countries that are looking to score political points (Egypt against Libya i think), (Greece against Turkey), Qatar and UAE want a politically safer bet than the US who doesn't really care about them. India likes being neutral between Russia and the US, Croatia i'll just assume is butt blasted because they're in the balkans.Indonesia is mildly surprising but Singapore has F-35's so not that odd.
Meanwhile the F-35 is operated by a good chunk of the First world and it's expanding beyond that at this point.
It's still a good idea to keep your industry working and not stagnate, unlike some other nations with a "arms industry" mostly for show.
If you want to arm ukes so badly just hand them all the Panavia Tornados, germany and italy would still have to replace them, but they'd do it sooner.
Tornado isn't the kind of plane Ukraine is looking for
Wrong. Tornado ECR is the exactly what Ukraine should looking for.
>, well actually no that's not true the F-35A is significantly cheaper at this point in time
why americans always think that everyone should buy the f35 ?
i mean the fact that XA100 is nowhere to be found
the upgrades come slower than the upgrade of eurofighter
its fucking ugly
you cant fucking call it a multirole when it can hold only 4 fucking missiles
honestly it feels like most of them buy the f35 for political reasons because i dont see the need on the air forces of many countries
plus why they always compare the price that usa buys f35 with well....everyone else?
my room temperature is bigger than their iq
also whats the point of it all the F4.1 will bring rafale on the same level if not about electronics wise with the f35
the F5 will bring an almost complete overhaul on the structural side of it to reduce its signature
and most importantly france offers the MCM to be held locally unlike LM that has only given ODIN to few select lapdogs holding the rest hostages
>F-35.... LE BAD!
Please stop parroting this stupid meme Pierre.
prove me wrong in anything i said then
yes its BAD no matter what it cant be a f16 or a f4 or basicly anything because its internal capacity is LOW
end of story
4 internal hardpoints + 6 external retard. Very little missions require pure 100% stealth and the F-35 would be used for SEAD/DEAD. Also the internal hardpoints are to be expanded to 6 soon.
>+4 internal plus 6 externals HURR DURR
ah yeah
>LOOK OUR TOTALLY NEW STEALTH AIRPLANE THAT YOU NEED TO SACRIFICE ITS ONLY SELLING POINT TO GIVE IT A CHANCE OF SURVIVAL
such a good rebuttal that i cried
As opposed to planes.... Without an internal bay that can carry a grand total of 0 missiles and compromise their radar profile with external hardpoints? Are you a tard? How hard is it to understand that having 4 internals is always going to be better than having none. And guess what, your rafaleshit has none.
because having 2 aim120s and 2 aim9x wont give you any chance of survival against something that can carry 6 meteors and 4 magic 2s
or 4 meteors and 4 magic 2s
then what?
Except for the fact that the F-35 can annihilate anything it needs to before it's seen.
>pings its radar
>enemy gets pinged
>find its general direction
>f35 sends an aim120s
>enemy flogs it cold
>gets back
>f35 sends another aim 120
>enemy flogs it
>because shooting fucking missiles from the moon in order not to be seen has its natural drawbacks
>suddenly you are out of long range shit and you have to get into wvr
>enemy still hasnt fired shit because "it cant see you" nevermind the fact that this argument doesnt work since the era of aesa radars....
>suddenly radar bleed through happens
>enemy fires its load because it can now targets you
>and you have literally nothing
>you get blasted
>IM STEALTH GUYS
maybe try to refine your argument a bit
you expect americans to understand aerial warfare?
hot denial airspace is literally something they teach cadets from the moment they are ready to jump into AAT
not sure how other countries do it but here in greece well at least till the day i learned that i developed a problem with my belly muscles and i couldnt proceed any further
we use to fly with t2's and we had an f16/f4 whatever it was that day on bvr mode and we had to learn how to dive at what angle in relation to where we thought the missile was coming
WHEN to actually dive because diving the moment you got locked you most certainly will end up dead so the trick is to turn cold on the same alt continue for a bit let the lets say meteor burn its fuel in upper atm and then dive hard into thick air and accel
those people think that those planes are like a wunderwaffen they dont understand that bvr only helps against enemies that are 4-5 generations behind and in today's world you cant just spam bvr missiles and be done thats not how it works
going into wvr is more than likely the most normal scenario because a aim9x is far more deadly than a aim120 being fired from another universe
yeah man, the air battle over is totally guns-only dogfights and SAMs have never shot down anything because missiles and radars don't work.
>this is why everyone mocks Rafalefags and Gripenfags
*air battle over Ukraine, damnit
>here in Greece
Lol. Lmao even
Still can''t wrap my mind about the fact that stealth/5th gen/ larpers deliverately ignore the fact that long to medium range fox-2 exists... And that most modern optronical sensors can detect a heat signature up to 90 nm and more at least...
Having a stealthy signature is a good thing, but that's just one trick in the hat. We're no longer in the late 90's.
Are you really that ignorant or just coping so hard you pretend to be stupid? Fighter-mounted electro-optical sensors have a maximum detection range of 90km against a jet from the rear aspect only, looking right into that steel-melting heat. From other aspects, that range drops to 50km.
Why is France trying to develop a 6th gen fighter with serious low radar-observability characteristics if it doesn't work? Maybe because you'd lose 80 Rafales to one F-35A dropped if the two types went against each other? Never mind getting shot by opposing high-altitude GBAD batteries too, which the Rafale cannot adequately deal with.
Wew.
Where am I wrong? The range of IRST is limited simply by laws of physics, infrared gets dissipated into the atmosphere and you're trying to track a high-subsonic target.
And how do you plan on dealing with things like S-300 and S-400 complexes with Rafales, besides hiding behind F-35s?
>In this one specific scenario where the F-35 pilot makes a very predictable mistake against his opponent he loses, guys! See! The F-35 is bad!
No USAF F-35 will be alone. No F-35 will be without AWACS support. You will get scanned from one direction and killed via data link from a completely different direction.
>only given ODIN to few select lapdogs holding the rest hostages
No matter the volume of shitposting that comes from vatniks and thirdies, they'll never match the sheer amount of bitterness and asshurt the French squeeze into each and every post. It's almost artful.
>you cant fucking call it a multirole when it can hold only 4 fucking missiles
6 internally and 12 on wings with Block 4 in 2026, still better low-observability than a Rafale.
Holy shit, the Rafale can't even do SEAD/DEAD. What are you gonna do, try dropping AASM Hammers on a 92N6E? Rafales just hide behind F-35s until all hostile high-altitude GBAD and interceptors have been taken out and then act as bomb trucks, until they run out of proprietary bombs again, like in 2011. Rafale only gets deals due to politics, like extorting Croatia with EU stuff. F-35 gets bought by anyone who wants to actually be able to fight. 100% bid winrate, 78:1 droprate in Red Flag 😀
>it's fucking ugly
You are objectively wrong
Nope, he's still right, tho. It's just you having a shit taste.
Your taste is so shit it better kill you
Most other first world countries rely on the US for their defense. None of the Rafale buyers are relying solely on the US. Something to think about.
Furthermore there's a myriad of missions for which the F35 is not really suitable for. Which is why the US still operates f16s, F15EXs and more and why countries like Greece want both the Rafale and the F35.
>Furthermore there's a myriad of missions for which the F35 is not really suitable for
Like what? Defensive/Offensive counter-air? SEAD/DEAD? Ground strike, Deep Strike? Anti-ship? Recon? An F-22 is a better interceptor on paper, can't really think of anything else. Legacy platforms make cheaper JDAM trucks solely due to 90's prices ignoring inflation and the costs of their MLU packages. If you go by 2022 prices, F-35As are cheaper for that and have better sensor suites.
Anything that requires high payloads and maneuverability.
But muh dogfighting is dead. Yes, probably, in wartime, but actually no.
Take Greece for example. They need aircraft that will intercept F16s, mock dogfight them and escort them outside the airspace. The F35 is just not the aircraft for that. Other countries (India) also have similar issues.
I also don't buy the reduced operational cost but i'm not in the mood to discuss just the costs because a) the information is limited b) what information is available I don't really trust.
Why?
They don't need something carrier capable.
They wouldn't have gotten a production line.
They wouldn't have gotten a 5th gen platform.
All of which they have with the F-35B.
Basically anyone with the choice of the Rafale or F-35 picks the F-35. Even Canada.
Rafale isn't a bad plane, but the F-35 (and even Typhoon) are superior.
>France stops supporting Pakistan
>Pakistan retrofits shit loads of tech to Mirages III/V's to keep them flying with capabilities even greater than the M2K
Lmfao
Buy buying the F-35 you're not simply buying a plane.
US sales strategy involves political, logistical and economic deals to make the contract more interesting.
But when you buy Rafales, you also buy the political freedom to not be able to adequately deal with enemy SAMs
Ah yeah, all those rafales downed by the mighty S-300 over Europe
I really doubt that F-35 is superior to something other than in crushrate.
>(and even Typhoon) are superior.
Top kek, how is the AESA upgrade going again?
Quite well; the production contract for RAF's ECRS Mk2 variant has been signed.
Rafale was designed with slightly earlier tech, that is why it'll always approach sundown faster than Typhoon. Basic product lifecycle, bitches; learn it.
Wake me up when Typhoon finally has better service life than the prototypes
What on earth are you babbling about
The Typhoon has absolutely dogshit reliability. Typhoons were rated at around 6000 hours of service life per craft, which is horrible compared to other aircraft. What's worse, recently UK pulled Tranche 1 aircraft from service with only ~2500 hours used up. Compare that to F-16 or Rafale, which have 8000 hours of service life. Funniest thing is that every single Typhoon version promised to have the service life extended to 8000 hours, but failed every time.
Either you're being ignorant or disingenuous. RAF Tranche 1s are pulled for budget reasons, same reasons why other national fleets have low flight hours. For any proper air force 6000 hours is standard for the Typhoons, nd that's not "horrible" - F15Cs originally had 4000 hours, and F14s and F18s had 6000 hours - I don't know if this has changed or if rebuilds / strengthening is necessary to achieve higher figures. Either way, you're dead wrong.
>F-15 was rated for 9000 hours of service life
>Hornet was rated for 6000 hours but it got bumped up to 8000 hours due to better reliability than anticipated
>F-14 was dogshit with notoriously bad reliability, and it was rated for 6000 hours, extended to 7200 hours
There's far far more to service life than "Jet A is better than Jet B", and you are a child for thinking so
>The F-15’s initial operational requirement was for a service life of 4,000 hours. Following successful airframe structural testing, the F-15C was extended to an 8,000-hour service life limit and was extended further because of the need for air superiority
>To get to 10,000 flight hours means probably a couple hundred thousand maintenance hours have been put in
>with each of the unit’s F-15s currently averaging 120 hours a year, the aircraft may not reach the 10,000-hour milestone
>only a handful of the C/D/E aircraft are believed to be in the 10,000 hour club
https://www.acc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1073678/nellis-f-15s-odometer-hits-10000-flight-hours/
Now shut your mouth full of rotting teeth and admit that Typhoon was a mistake
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Magazine%20Documents/2017/September%202017/0917_Tirpak_SLEP.pdf
>uh uh um no u!! (playground insult)
As I said, a child.
>posts an article stating that an aircraft's operational requirement (ie. what was decided in project planning phase) was 4000 hours
>that very same article says that in testing it was extended to 8000 hours
>get another article stating an even higher rated operational life
>get called a retard for being a retard
>heh, ad hominem, you lose
>just, yknow, extend the hours, simple as
Involving Germany was the mistake tbh
>"Whyyy nobody in europe buy european weapons!"
>"If you don't involve us in the project we won't buy it!"
>proceeds to fuck over the entire project by stiffing on funding
>Gerhard Schröder wins elections by promising to cancel the Eurofighter project
>everyone knew to expect this from the eternal kraut from the start
>contract's cancellation clause would be more expensive for the germans than just going through with it
They fuck up every project they're involved in like that. Projects run by private german industry are another story.
Continentals are just cunts in general who are unable to play with others. Those with the ability should just avoid them.
Hence AUKUS.
This, fuck continentals (except poles)
>t. Ausfag
France was in the right when they broke off, tard wrangling bongs and germs would be far more difficult than designing a new plane from scratch
Yeah, they were at least able to pull off a functional jet like the Swedes. Funny how the Spanish and the Italians are actually very decent partners in these projects with EADS, Leonardo and others.
Rafale is far from a clean sheet project.
There's an F-15E out there with something upwards of 13,000 hours I believe. Tail 89-0487 in the 335th FS which successfully dropped a GBU-10 on a hovering helicopter in Desert Storm, giving it the only air to air kill with a bomb on record. I believe the story goes that the helicopter was on the ground and dropping off troops when they dropped the bomb, then it took off and they said fuck it, just keep lasing, and it scored a direct hit.
Very nice, guess in 10 years the Typhoon will finally reach the same air to ground capabilities than the Rafale, truly a marvel of engineering
Even tho it already does that and can carry more payload than the rafail and it’s puny engines?
>Source: my headcanon
But nice try Bongtard, a bit recognizable tho
isnt rafale capable of carrying
>3 SS with 2 tanks +4 AA
or
>2 ss with 3 tanks + 4 AA
eurogay can only carry AA if it uses the small diameter tank at the center if its up to deep strike it can only carry 2 AA
Literally retarded
Kek, can I see this payload in the air? Would be a shame if it was just a mockup and not operational at all
Lol, thats thing ain"t gonna fly more than 150nm with this configuration.
The point being made here is the variety of weapons available which is not short of the smartest A2G weapons currently in use
Moving the goalposts, which was that Rafale>Typhoon. In all fairness Typhoon dominated the Rafale for much of its life but the length and scope of the updates have tilted the balance.
>Moving the goalposts
That's not how that works, dipshit
The topic was air to ground weapons
Are you even able to follow reply chains?
Impressive, you might actually have some fielded by the time RBE2-XG is ready
Typhoon Pre-AESA had one of the best radars in the world, comparable to Rafale's AESA's radar.
Unlike the Rafale, the Typhoon has greater power generation and a significantly larger nose, so doesn't need a gimped AESA to cope.
A2G wasn't a priority with Typhoon (they had the Tornado for that). When the Tornado was phased out all A2G munitions were converted to Typhoon and Typhoon's can carry more ordinance, at a greater distance than the Rafale.
Pure cope, its either biggest payload and no range or same range and smaller payload. Surely if the Typhoon is superior it must be a bestselling fighter, where are the sales?
>where are the sales
You've been schooled on this before, Rafail
Dassault sells to shitskins; Eurofighter is the choice of Euros
Simple as
Sure thing
Typhoon sales to European countries:
Austria
Typhoon sales to shitskins:
Qatar
Kuwait
Oman
Saudi Arabia
>Typhoon sales to European countries:
>Austria
>Spain
>Germany
>Italy
>UK
>Typhoon sales to European countries:
>Spain
>Germany
>Italy
>UK
Umm but Rafale was bought by BOTH French Air Force & Navy France, sweetie 😉
>Typhoon sales to European countries:
>Austria
>Spain
>Germany
>Italy
>UK
You actual retard, a "sale" means an EXPORT sale.
You dont "sell" stuff to yourself. You acquire it but it's not an export.
As
says, France did not export the Rafale to itself, that would make no fucking sense.
Why are you guys always this dense holy shit.
>reeee is must be an EXPORT
Yeah, by that sort of retard measure, an aircraft would be UNsuccessful if 20 nations signed up to develop it and it sold to 2 other nations; whereas an aircraft developed by 1 nation that sold to 3 other nations would be "more" successful
I trust not all frenchies are as disingenuous as you, otherwise it's a really bad outlook for France
Did you hear? The French Force de Frappe adopted the Rafale for the Nuclear Deterrence role?? Amazing, they trust it for something so critical?? Has the Typhoon been adopted for nuclear strike roles by any country??
The Typhoon is a DOMESTIC fighter for UK, Germany, Spain & Italy developed to their specs you absolute gigamongoloid. Export success is the real measure of how "good" a fighter is. You're blatantly claiming having more participating nations in a project makes it more successful. 154 Typhoons have been exported to 5 nations, while 284 Rafales have been exported to 7 nations. And NTA, but I'm the guy who made Rafalefags seethe the hardest in this thread earlier.
>Export success is the real measure of how "good" a fighter is
>F-22 exported to zero country
>F-22 offered to zero country
Are you trying to make the point the typhoon wasn't offered to other markets the rafale succeeded in you giant retard?
>Export success is the real measure of how "good" a fighter is
You're retarded
>Has the Typhoon been adopted for nuclear strike
And shifting goalposts
The point of the Rafale nukes was that is was meant to be an equally stupid of an argument as claiming the Typhoon is more successful for being designed by four countries whereas the Rafale by only one, but I guess you're too dimwitted to get it.
>Typhoon Pre-AESA had one of the best radars in the world, comparable to Rafale's AESA's radar.
Do you enjoy just making shit up?
You think AESA vs PESA means one can't be better under any circumstances?
Typhoon by a long way at the better air to air radar, bigger range, wider angle. Superior sidelobe performance.
>You think AESA vs PESA means one can't be better under any circumstances?
yes its literally impossible for a pesa to be better even if you take 1gen aesa before gan
There is so much more to radars than simultaneous tasking of TR modules. So much so that the fact you're oblivious to it makes it pretty much worthless trying to teach you.
You can have higher quality TR modules on a PESA delivering more power, with better software interpreting that data and making an inferior radar multitask doesn't somehow make it better.
>There is so much more to radars than simultaneous tasking of TR modules
thats literally what makes the aesa radar better overall
>You can have higher quality TR modules on a PESA delivering more power
you can also have better tr GaN modules on a aesa to deliver more power
> with better software interpreting that data and making an inferior radar multitask doesn't somehow make it better.
no shit anon this can also apply to any fucking radar even vhf ones and probably the only ones that matters the passive ones
>You think AESA vs PESA means one can't be better under any circumstances?
Pretty much
>Basically anyone with the choice
>with the choice
Key word
The US don't give them a choice.
South Korea wanted Rafale, the US threatened to remove their military base
Germany didn't want the F35 for the NATO nuke, they wanted F18, US removed the choice
Australia wanted to test the F35 against the Rafale, the US bribed some politician the same way they did for the submarines and suddenly, no more test.
Swiss obvious economical choice was to take the Rafale, Bidden pass by, likely put pressure on them over state secret and suddenly they accept a F35 that only cost less because it will fly less.
If US was running a protection racket and extorting clients to pay tribute to their MIC they'd be forcing them to buy Boeing, not Lockmart.
Finnish Air Force actually got to test all the Hornet replacement candidate's electronic warfare systems, radars and radar/IR signatures from the receiving end with the help of some Nokia engineers. They said all of them deliver exactly what they promise.
>US was running a protection racket and extorting clients to pay tribute to their MIC they'd be forcing them to buy Boeing, not Lockmart.
They tried but unlike military contract they would have to bribe every single client because Boeing is simply less attractive.
With military contract they need to put pressure on far less people.
Lockheed was in fact caught for bribery/corruption multiple times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
The US weaponized how their anti-corruption laws applied to non-US oversea companies, putting extra effort on critical industries, asking for staggering fines over any sort of infraction with the intent of bankrupting their target so US companies could buy them.
How they made GE take over Altoms turbine is even worse (France got it back only recently).
https://www.economist.com/business/2019/01/17/how-the-american-takeover-of-a-french-national-champion-became-intertwined-in-a-corruption-investigation
And so the US did accuse Airbus of 'endemic corruption' (no! your airliner aren't better than ours!) found a few proof (because let's be honest, it happen) and were about to sue if Airbus didn't saw it coming and countered it by taking it to a court in England by themselves.
This is real politic.
France definitely have shady backroom deal but when the US get desperate they can get away with far worse.
>Finnish Air Force
Already had US equipments and were on the fence for NATO membership which would have required US airplane to carry out nuclear deterrence, it was biased from the start.
Only Germany, Italy, Belgium & Netherlands are part of the NATO nuclear sharing treaty. It's in no way a requirement in being a NATO member. One can always dream ofc.
If they want to become part of said nuclear sharing treaty it is, no other planes would be allowed and you can't exactly change at the last minute.
Continuing with US planes, outside of the obvious logistic simplicity, was always a message to Russia about the cost if their neutrality isn't respected.
Also England is building storage to rejoin the club.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/12/uk-military-vaults-upgraded-to-store-new-us-nuclear-weapons
>SK wanted Rafale
Bullshit
>Germany wanted F-18
Bullshit
>Australia wanted F-35
Bullshit
>Economic choice
Unit cost of F-35 is lower and beat every Rafale in every metric tested by the Swiss
>SK
Want to make their own fighter and ditch the F35, initially preferred Rafale or F15 for cost.
wanted F-18
>Bullshit
Did you even check shill-kun? The US had to remove certification for the F-18 to force Germany to get the F-35
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/germanys-air-force-going-all-fa-18-super-hornet-138332
https://meta-defense.fr/en/2021/12/17/the-fa-18-ef-super-hornet-is-still-further-away-from-germany/
https://fas.org/publication/fa-18_removed-from-fact-sheet/
>Australia
They removed all competitors from consideration, Australia is an US satellite state.
https://australianaviation.com.au/2018/03/the-options-that-werent-for-the-raaf-fighter-fleet/
>But both jets are European, and as has been born out with the AIR 87 armed reconnaissance helicopter (ARH) experience, are encumbered by political and multi-national considerations, and their systems are not designed to seamlessly integrate with those forces of Australia’s principle ally in the region, the US. Thus, any efforts on Australia’s part to increase those levels of integration would likely have been costly and would have had little support from the US for either the development or the validation work.
>Unit cost of F-35 is lower and beat every Rafale in every metric tested by the Swiss
...only because their "alt-metric" claimed you need to fly the F35 less
https://skiesmag.com/news/swiss-bet-f35-affordability/
>Recent reports point to an increasing gap in what operators thought they’d be spending on F-35 operations, compared with reality.
>Flight hour costs for the F-35 have been a sore point that House Armed Services Committee Chairman Adam Smith (D-Wash) raised just one day before the Swiss announcement, telling the Defense Writer’s Group; “The sustainment costs ― and it varies, I understand they’re as high as $38,000 an hour, and that is incredibly expensive ― it’ll make the plane so that you don’t really want to operate it any more than you absolutely have to.”
>Croatia i'll just assume is butt blasted because...
No, Croatia needs airforce
like yesterday and only France can deliver them in reasonable time
This. F-16V would've been bought if there wasn't a huge queue for the aircraft. Croatia dragged its feet when it came to procurement, deciding to make a tender with >5 years worth of life in the existing aircraft.
Except USA blocked sale of Israeli F-16, then allowed it when vetoed it again.
At same time France promised to build manufacturing center in Croatia.
Also I support EU homogeneity and support to fellow europeans.
I'm Croat and he is retarded, there was no shit skin quota. We still beat those animals at border kek
also fuck serbs
>Belgian industry is urging the federal government to join one of the new-generation combat air system projects currently under development, whichever it may be, taking care not to decide in favour of the SCAF or the British-Italian-Japanese Tempest – now GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme).
>However, the Dassault CEO, still angered by the previous Belgian administration’s choice in favour of the F-35A Lightning II from US group Lockheed Martin to replace the ageing F-16s, on Wednesday showed himself to be hostile to Belgian participation in SCAF.
>“I hear about the Belgians, that’s all very well. But I would then advocate setting up an F-35 club within SCAF,” he told French senators. “I don’t really see the point in putting more F-35 countries into SCAF... Why would I make room in my factory, in my design office for people who have chosen the F-35?
>“I hear people say: we could give jobs to Belgian companies straight away… No. If it’s imposed on me, I’ll fight. I don’t see why I would give jobs to Belgians today.”
Holy fucking ass rage. Why are the French so upset about the F-35?
This is peek incel behaviour. Just joint Tempest already, you will be much happier.
By the end of the year 1000 F-35s will be produced. Compare that to the sales of the Rafale and it is easy to see why they are seething so much
Are rafales even built anymore? Whenever France sells some they always use their own stock from their navy/airforce
Of course they are? But everyone who's buying new ones is going for the F4 standard which is supposed to start deliveries around 2026
tempest is a dumpster fire
and i doubt scaf will ever happen after the bullshit germany did by inviting ibm to be its cloud provider for the program
aka once more germany is sabotaging yet another eu program
they fucked up eurofighter and still are
they fucked up tornado too
they fucked up the eurodrone
they fucked up the epc
they also fucked up the zephyr
and now scaf
>Tempest is a dumpster fire
Those plane grapes sure are sour froggy
remember when uk wanted to merge tempest and f-x ?
yeah fun times admitting your dumpster fire is basicly DOA
It already happened under your nose retard. Tempest and the F-X became GCAP, meanwhile you went with the GERMANS to make a plane. Lmao, it'll never work. French entitlement and German autism are a deadly combo. In the sense that they kill every project they touch.
Alphajet was alright
maybe you should look WHO from japan is actually involved on the matter before thinking that its merged
aka you got only mitsubishi on the engines while they are literally moving ahead with the f-x as it is
>NO THEY'RE MAKING TWO 6TH GENS AND MITSUBISHI IS MAKING TWO PLANES
Lol
https://warriormaven.com/air/japans-6th-gen-mitsubishi-f-x-prototype-to-emerge-in-2024
you were saying?
Yeah I can totally see them spending double the budget on two similiar projects. Honestly it's a retarded take and the project will end up merging as a whole in the GCAP just for the economies of scale involved
That article quotes another article that quotes a 2020 article before the merging of the projects retard-kun
don't expect frogs to understand that some countries are capable of a friendly partnership. They are just seething that MGCS and SCAF are dead, I will love to see them try to solve both of these problems now on their own
Why wouldn't France be capable of developing a domestic tank?
They already have better barrels and know how to make an autoloader.
I don't know what SCAF is.
>better barrel
source or citations needed for that
Back from Franco-German program, 140mm barrel that had 60-80% better performance IIRC.
And they had a 140mm barrel for LeClerc 30 years ago but France didn't want to invest because French military won't fight a war where tanks matter.
Developing the tank isn't so much of a problem, besides probably the engine and the gear box which can be quite challenging. The problems would be the economies of scale involved which would make a group partnership very convenient in the long run for a lower unit cost and eventual upgrades. The french wanted the MGCS for a reason, if it fails they might have to find different partners or they will fave to find customers for the new tank to make it profitable, which is going to be a pain in the ass if there are already other very advanced tanks on the market.
The being said SCAF was the fighter programme they had with germany and spain it is most likely going to fail
>besides probably the engine and the gear box which can be quite challenging.
France has like 5 companies that make diesel engine and their own gearboxes.
>rest of the argument
yeah, fair but LeClerc was developed despite those issues and France is the 2nd largest weapons exporter on the planet and finding markets shouldn't be that much of an issue.
>The being said SCAF was the fighter programme they had with germany and spain it is most likely going to fail
It is FCAS for non-Spaniards and it isn't showing any signs of failing as work started half a year ago.
Not French and you have issues.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/signs-point-to-germany-and-airbus-being-eased-out-of-scaf/ yeah I don't know about that. The french basically want the german funding but want to keep the technologies to themeselves and germans obviously can't accept that.
Regarding the tanks the french will have to compete with the Abrams, the K2, the Leopard and if rumors are true the future tank made by germany, italy, sweden and spain. That is if it does it by itself, I don't know if that is a good idea honestly but knowing them I'm sure they would try
I guess us plebs can only guess what will happen but the Franco-German tank is definitely kill.
Francis Tusa is a debby downer but yeah, let's see what Germany can really offer in the aerospace area
that being said,
>France partnering with shitskins
LMAO talk about scraping the barrel
>let's see what Germany can really offer in the aerospace area
nothing?
https://meta-defense.fr/2023/08/30/rafale-f5-scaf-besoins-france/
Yeah I'm not betting on FCAS going anywhere relevant soon
That is actually expected since the timetables for 6th gen are insane.
the point is that there is a portion of the french politcal spectrum which is basically fed up with the situation and want to go on alone. I honestly think it's not a good idea to try to do either programmes without an international partnership, it would just be too expensive
Yeah, 6th gen looks to be unobtanium for states without a 20 trillion dollar economy.
Exactly, even germany and japan which have very large economies are looking for partnerships. But who knows, maybe the frogs can pull it of in the end if shit hits the fan
They have Dassault, Airbus, Safran, Arianespace, MBDA and few others, if anyone in Europe can do it, it is them but it will be comically overbudget and deadlines will be nothing more than suggestions.
Excusez moi, mon français est merde.
Yeah but they are also basically leaping one generation ahead without any experience on 5th generation aircrafts. Say what you will of the GCAP but the UK, Italy and Japan were Tier 1 and Tier 2 partners to the programme. They have help built and gained experience in using a stealth aircraft. They are working together as well which will definitely lower costs
I meant alone, I believe France is the only state in Europe that can build a 6th generation jet on its own with England second and Sweden third.
gnomish lore is so fucking awful, I want Roman/Greek tier religions to be popular again.
gnomish lore is literally better on artistic grounds. There is a reason the Septuagint was among the most copied books in the West even before Christ and garden gnomes actually had a ton of converts around the Mediterranean. The whole reason Christianity could spread is because part of the story was already known.
Ehud telling the fat oppressive king "I have a message from God for you, you must let me tell it to you in private," and then running him through with a sword strapped to his thigh is more kino than the formulaic back and for smoting of many Greek myths.
Not to mention the Hebrew poetry stays fresh today in many places.
Not that I don't love the Homeric epics and Hesiod, but in terms of contemporary writing it also isn't worlds different. It's in many ways similar to the earlier epics of other people's, Gilgamesh, etc. The Tanakh cribs older stories in parts, but its tales of sojourners and slaves being saved through cunning faith and mystery makes it more unique.
Or the whole thing where the priests of Baal are pouring oil and tinder on their altar trying to get it to light aflame.
Meanwhile, Elisha is pouring water on his alter.
Then he asks "why do you call out to your God with words, is he not standing on the alter? As he gone to go take a shit? Or is he asleep that you should need to wake him?"
The Hebrews bagged on idols quite well. "oh no, Dagon has fallen? Can he not right himself? Does he need your help to stand upright? Not much of a God then huh?"
And Ecclesiastes out nihilisms the "I am le absurd," existentialists of the 20th century by a mile.
You are gnomish, aren't you?
It's a "he said, she said" in the military circles in Croatia.
Look, everyone is very sceptic of immigrants here and we have been pressured to let them in for years and some states like Austria and Italia have been claiming we run concentration camps on the border with Bosnia so it is possible that somehow, us rejecting the F-35 purchase turned into a right wing talking point but I don't see a logical way that could happen.
Pretty sure Safran has been working on that one and they have a working prototype.
Yeah I understood that, but honestly it wouldn't be worth it. If you look at the hypothesized numbers for the NGAD or the GCAP the unit cost is going to be insane even with economies of scale. A partnership for smaller countries with first world economies is necessary even if you have the technological capacity
>I meant alone, I believe France is the only state in Europe that can build a 6th generation jet on its own with England second and Sweden third.
I doubt it. France has not been able to design a 5th gen yet, while many other countries have experience from participating in the F-35. I think Dassault would need some help from EADS in designing a 5th gen or 6th gen, since the only facility in Europe able to measure true radar imprint of an actual plane is located in Spain.
>I believe France is the only state in Europe that can build a 6th generation jet on its own
France can't make 6th gen engine, not by themselves.
>germany
wait
the same country that fucked up eurodrone by demanding a cap on its ceiling and to be dual engined with a high lift low drag wing spec that defeats the reason of being a drone?
the same country that was part of the epc vette program and left because nobody else agreed on having a literal corvetter at 5000t?
the same country that fucked up eurofighter by demanding 4 tiers of specs and tests for each upgrade leading the entire program on the trash can?
the same country that wanted zephyr to have LESS endurace because they might forget that its flying?(yes it was their fucking reason) and airbus had to move away to do their own version?
the same country that intentionally fucked up the first batch of the type 212 of greece?
the same country that brought a us company to oversee its cloud based solution that will power the entire A.I of the scaf while europe LITERALLY has pcloud that is considered the best of the best?
nah sorry germany needs to be bombed to the ground and if anyone is left alive to be raped wearing a nazi uniform just to remind them who they trully are
It's not the size of the economy per se, it's the growth rate.
If the next new fighter is say 50% more expensive than the current one, and the economy looks like picrel, well...
It's Système de Combat Aérien du Futur for you, retard.
To be honest, I do not like the idea of France's future fighter stemming from a European collaboration.
>We'll do it alone, nyehhh!
Fucking do it, I want to see France's economy fuck itself even harder in the ass
France is the third biggest arms exporter in the world and its business is booming thanks to Russia humiliating itself in Ukraine.
Seethe more gay, we demonstrably don't need you.
>we demonstrably don't need you
>GDP same as before 2009
didn't think i would read something this retarded on PrepHole but a frog is a frog after all
thats because your amount of knowledge around the matter is as big as a teaspoon
its cheaper ONLY for usa look at the rest especially the ones that managed to get ODIN locally
and you will realise that well getting an f15ex will still come cheaper regardless
thats because japan isnt merging shit this is just a stupid term uk invented to save face
japan is only providing the tech they developed for the engine
>its cheaper ONLY for usa look at the rest
what the fuck is this idiot talking about, seriously?!
https://www.ft.com/content/aca4f3f0-f9bd-4d96-9928-febb13da6513
>According to executives at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, part of the challenge is that each of the companies wants to take the lead in the most interesting parts of the development, including the cockpit, electronics, the weapons control system and the carbon fibre wings. “There are so many areas that everyone wants to do,” said Masayuki Eguchi, head of defence at MHI. “Ultimately, the work share will be decided depending on factors such as how much time will be required to develop the technology and how much it would cost,” he said adding that the partners have yet to work out whether the workload would be shared one-third each or whether it would be a different split.
They have merged the programmes, they are working on much more than just the engine
They're not upset about the F35, they're upset about the belgians having always been completely unreliable whenever it comes to military matters (see WW1 and WW2 which costs France incredible harsh losses both time because they flip flopped).
France shouldn't partner with the germans either btw, they're the kings of corporate espionnage and have completely different strategic need for their planes. They don't really give a shit about having a good fighter, they just want to steal technologies and industrial processes.
There is only a handful of countries in Europe which match the needs of France like Greece, Italy or the UK too bad they're either broke or basically a captive market for the US.
F-35 is for the advent of actual wars with peer countries and actual means of destroying you.
rafale is a both rugged and sophisticated aircraft for everyday jobs and not just retarded show off like the f-35 that, may I remind you, was sold on the idea that even if you can't just operate it as much as the other planes, the sim would do.
So now you have tons of pilots coping in their gaming rig basically playing DCS while actual chads take Gs and fuck up towel people live
It's more that the French will sell to anyone the US wont, that isn't going to piss off the west when you buy Russian or chinese
F-35 is cheaper upfront. Cost of ownership is a different, it's more maintenance-heavy and requires locksneed support for basically any sort of tinkering.
not to mention the complete bullshit
>the f35 is cheaper because you can spend flight hours on the simulator
because surely this is how you gain practice and you can understand the quirks of the plane
>we have to blow holes in our actual ships to teach damage control
F-35 isn't even the first military vehicle to have extensive simulator training, mong
it LITERALLY is they LITERALLY account the amount of virtual training to cost of flight
which LITERALLY nobody else on any other plane did it to justify its """"price""""
>it LITERALLY is
It isn't.
>its """"price""""
The F-35 is cheaper per airframe and has the same cost per flight hour as an F-15.
>well actually no that's not true the F-35A is significantly cheaper at this point in time. So it's basically only the top choice of countries that are looking to score political points
well, yes, but also, no
Cumulative operating costs are a bigger sum than the price tag
Rafale is cheaper to run (even cheaper than F-16)
After 10 000 flight hours (typical life spam for an airframe), Rafale ends up being almost 2 times cheaper than F-35 (and Grippen 4 times cheaper)
But as you said, there's a lot of backroom deals with jets so you also have to include foreign investments and diplomatic "I-O-U"s that come as a package deal
>After 10 000 flight hours (typical life spam for an airframe), Rafale ends up being almost 2 times cheaper than F-35 (and Grippen 4 times cheaper)
Do tell, what's the flighthour cost of a Gripen compared to an F-35A you're using? You're using 7000€/h for Gripen aren't you? Swedish, USAF, and French numbers are not comparable with each other, flight hour cost depends on what you count into it. Do you count pilot salaries and running the airbase canteen into it? I've got the Norwegian Air Force stating their new F-35As are cheaper to operate than their old F-16s were. The most well-known cost-saving thing the F-35 has is that most parts can be accessed one-deep just by removing the skin panels, less labour and better availability rate.
I've also come to expect a fighter to fly 5000 flight hours since C Hornets are rated for 6000 flight hours by default and Rafales for 7000. Keep in mind, air forces that expect to have any war-fighting capacity don't fly their jets as long as the airframes can barely hold up; they need to have enough flight hours left in them.
Yes, I'm just going with first google result.
If you want to one up me with more accurate numbers from actual accounting books or something, please, go ahead.
As for the life span I went with a max round number you could reasonably and still safely squeeze out of the plane before you have to send it to farm
Hornets specifically are rated quite a bit lower because arrested carrier landings cause higher strain on the frame (I'd assume the Rafales on CdG are more worn out than the terrestrial ones as well)
> air forces that expect to have any war-fighting capacity don't fly their jets as long as the airframes can barely hold up
fair point from US perspective
but look at what planes Croatia is replacing
Our conservative government(Croatia) didn't want to accept the terms that were put on the table to buy the F-35, which according to rumors in our country, involved a shitskin quota.
So, buying a jet that has backdoor access by Americans and causes a demographic catastrophe in your country is not really preferable to one of the best 4th gen jets out there for us.
>involved a shitskin quota
Any proof of that? And not like France can't fuck you up with backdoor either.
I don't know about that, but in about a week of Croatia selecting the Rafale, France suddenly supported them in being allowed into something, pretty sure it was Schengen?
>Typhoon
It's Bauhaus
>in order to see the Italian-French fighter, we will have to wait for the 6th generation
The Italians are in GCAP you tard.
Italy and France have different foreign policy relations. France would just veto Italy trying to sell the plane to countries it wanted to. Same thing happened with the SAMP/T. Italy wants to sell it to Turkey but France doesn't.
It's the same reason why Germany and Sweden aren't part of the British, Italian, Japanese 6th gen program and likely never will be.
> Italy wants to sell it to Turkey but France doesn't.
Well some years ago it felt like Turkey was ready to start a war again Greece and per treaty against France so yeah, no wonder they didn't fancy the idea. Both country share the same flexibility when it come to customers honestly.
>Well some years ago it felt like Turkey was ready to start a war again Greece and per treaty against France so yeah, no wonder they didn't fancy the idea. Both country share the same flexibility when it come to customers honestly.
Not at all. France has big customers and keeping them happy means not selling to their enemies. That includes Greece and India.
Pakistan bought Mirage 3s in the late 1960s and Mirage 5s in the early 1980s. Afterwards, France wouldn't sell Pakistan planes or even spare parts. Pakistan ended up buying second-hand French planes and parts in the 1990s to keep their fleet running and upgraded.
>Sweden is in GCAP tho.
No, it isn't.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/sweden-joining-uk-japan-italy-fighter-effort-seen-as-unlikely-by-industry-partners/
France only started trying to step into the role of Greece's (and Armenia's) protector against the Big Bad Turks when Turkey started taking chunks out of their geopolitical turf which made France or more specifically, Macron, have a major grudge against them. In reality most French analysts have pointed out that this strategy is moronic and is netting France roughly zero political wins.
Most French analysts are white-hating marxists so I'll take that as a win
Sweden is in GCAP tho.
the domestic turkish AA was developed with diehl
its literally a clone of iris-t
Is that a French company, why are you bringing that up? And source?
Fuck off Frenchie. You've been busting everyone's ass about muh rafale, ugly ass plane. The GCAP is going to be a success without your need to make every project twice as expensive and twice as french.
Both planes literally look the same.
>Joint Italian-French projects
VGH...
Why the cat ears
>partner with France
>a year or 2 in they want to move all the previously agreed to be split manufacturing to France
>then when you say no they abandon the project and make it in France anyway
>you are left with 75% of the plans for something, 50% of the manufacturing capability to make it, and a choice between dramatically increasing your budget, trying to find a new partner, or abandoning it and buying American
...That said, I would like to see some LRAAM solutions with terminal IR guidance. How far that MICA IR reach, LOAL capability?
NOBODY wants to work with the French.
I used to think that's just a stereotype, but over the last decade I've had to deal with about a dozen of them professionally and all of them were incompetent and lazy garbage with gigantic egos, incredibly thin skin and a penchant for drama on par with teenage girls
>"waaah waaah you should phrase your critique as an opinion"
moronS YOU'RE OBJECTIVELY WRONG AND GOING TO KILL PEOPLE IF I GIVE YOU WIGGLE ROOM TO TALK YOURSELF INTO IGNORING THAT
>NOBODY wants to work with the French.
Poos and Goos do. Bloody benchod.
>all of them were incompetent and lazy garbage with gigantic egos, incredibly thin skin and a penchant for drama on par with teenage girls
no need to actually *work* with them, although it's true; just look at the Rafail moron on this board
>NOBODY wants to work with the French.
Italy had successful projects with France, including but not limited to the SAMP/T, Aster missiles and especially the FREMM frigate even the US wants to acquire.
France succesfully made the Scorpene SSK with Spain too.
France had successful aeronautical projects with the UK during the cold war, not just planes but armament too.
Only the krauts are problematic.
Then why does nobody want to work with the frogs ?
You're the nobody
Couldn’t be since I don’t want to work with the frogs either lmao
Nah mate, if we actually wanted to work with France at length we'd have included them in the Tornado project. We didn't and that baby came out beautiful.
>Be Switzerland
>Deny Italy a repurchase and transfer of Leopard-1s to send to Ukraine even though you don't use them
>Only after the tanks are shipped and the money is given tho!
Why are you like this.
Oops meant for
They did?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAC/Dassault_AFVG
But France withdrew as it was already close to fielding the Mirage 5.
Other nations have learned not to work joint projects with the French.
>itt frenchies seething
>yeah man 12 missiles hanging on the wings will totally not contribute on the radar signature
its an alien concept to them they think stealth always works no matter what
>israel puts 40 hours per month we put 35 the next best airforce out there in europe puts 21
its funny how out of all of them the dutch is actually putting so many hours
uk on the other hand isnt even putting 10 hours per month
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-flying-hours-decline-again-after-brief-recovery/
its ironic how their tanker fleet has more hours than their fighter jet pilots
Yes, you are useless, I was one of the ones who had the misfortune of going there on one of these programmes. Taking indolence and incompetence to a fine art. Bravo
You sure did, buddy, you sure did.
"I've been called out on my bullshit, better undermine him and call him buddy"
I can't decide who's more contemptible, yoghurt morons or roaches. The best thing that could happen for society was if you wiped one another out, but you lack the basic comptence for that as well.
The only calling out you did is you being underage, at least mentally.
Now post some sliver of proof to back up any of your claims or shut the fuck up.
PS: These "programmes" haven't even started yet, but you'd know that if you were involved, wouldn't you? Of course you would.
Yes because that's the only programme the Greek military offers? Stick your proof up your ass gay, saying Greeks are incompetent is like saying the sky is blue, it's an immutable truth.
>Gets called out on his bullshit LARP
>NOOOOO IT'S TOTALLY TRUE I SWEAR IT'S THIS OTHER THING THAT DOESN'T EXIST
You are a pathetic sack of shit.
Still better than being a Greek lmao
found the butthurt turk
you think we offer multiple programs like your local gym offer memberships?
>3 flights and a burger for a total of 5k euros
>10 flights bulk on a aging f4 feel the roar on your spine as you climb out to reach the gods
Yes..... "you" do? The army, navy and air force all take international students from NATO?
They don't. Clearly you're a larping sack of shit, get the fuck out of here. Joint excercises is all there is, and that's pretty far from "taking students".
i get that you are confused as fuck and instead of asking you just want to piss me off
YES we do offer a full course on navy air force and the army just like any other nato country
HOWEVER
i specifically mentioned the AAT training center
this center offers any cadet that has graduated from his country air force academy to be able to train in GREECE thats the difference
the initial plan was to offer this to countries that have the m 342/yak 130 as a trainer
but then instead we spend money to install various simulators ranging from f16s to rafales to f15s and f35s
there are plans by 2028 to buy c130s/a400 and potentially c390 simulators
they never disclosed who it was they said it was a german company
all you need to see is the specs
its literally the same
>they never disclosed who it was they said it was a german company
Turkey was Germany's biggest arms customer up until the 2000s. Germany placed embargoes on Turkey sometime in the 1990s until they were lifted in the 2000s. Then informal embargoes were selectively applied in the 2010s up until a full-scale, legally-binding embargo was placed in 2019. There's been no military industrial cooperation between Turkey and Germany since.
Germany and Sweden exercise restrictions and vetoes on a lot of potential customers, that's why they're not going to be partners in the 6th gen GCAP fighter jet program. It's not just about one customer. Japan itself left the US program and merged with the UK and Italy also because of technological restrictions from the US.
the air force program is set to start in 2024 currently only the greek pilots are using the simulators
so either you are a timetraveller
or
you are the typical PrepHole user
Maybe he's a Greek pilot that defected?
Kek
No you did not, they haven't even started.
>Anon gets completely obliterated
>Still persists trying to sell his LARP
Why are PrepHole fags like this?
>yeah man 12 missiles hanging on the wings will totally not contribute on the radar signature
And what do you think hanging 12 missiles on a Rafale does to it's radar signature?
SENSORS CAN ONLY DETECT YOU FROM BEHIND
>because surely once it turns it photoshops its self out of the OPTICAL sensor
Now you're just pretending to be illiterate
italy doesnt have catobar carriers, why would they want to join development of a catobar plane?
Newfag here. Is there a future for overly futuristic and expensive tech like the FCAS or MBT ?
i mean if you don't have US-tier factories to pump them fast, you'll just get obliterated like Russia and use CW gear
No but really I've been shitting on the Rafale in this thread and long before for lacking DEAD capability. I'll tell what I think it would need to change that: integrate Joint Strike Missiles, SPEAR 3s and LADMs or some other kind of decoy/jammer missiles. Integrating ARMs for SEAD also requires some kind of sensors and software, which I hear might also be on the table for F4?
However, none of these potential capabilities seem to be receiving any kind of effort from Dassault.
>SPEAR
They have their version of SDB 2, called the BAT-120.
OK, that looks nice. Apparently they plan on integrating the SPEAR EW as their ARM of choice, and the FMAN/FMC AShM in the F5? SPEAR EW integration kind of implies the SPEAR 3 might be coming along too then? I remember they were hinting at possibly integrating the JSM for both sea and land attack when the Finnish HX challenge was going on too.
But a lot of that has been pushed back to F5 standard in 2030, the F-35A is getting the JSM and AARGM-ER sooner around 2026-2027.
Dassault doesn't pick what weapons should be integrated, customers do
That's definitely a contributing factor to it losing the bid in Finland, then. The FAF spec was operating the Hornet replacement on the same standard as the "host country", sans nukes ofc. Bad experiences with running national variants that only brought increased costs and deprecated performance. SAAB was offering JASSM integration for the Gripen, but they were so strict with that they wanted Taurus KEPD anyway.
>Italian-French fighter, we will have to wait for the 6th generation
nice cope they can develop 6th gen fighter
Rafale is the best airplane the countries that are not trustworthy can get.
For the same price, they all could have bought the F-35.
>For the same price, they all could have bought the F-35.
You can buy 4x F-35As for the price of 3x Rafale F4s.
Not him, but there's a reason Middle Eastern countries aren't getting any 5th gen despite being extremely rich and able to pay for it. Qatar is one of the more hilarious countries in the fact that they own F-15QA, Eurofighters, Mirage 2000s, and Rafales. They're just buying whatever the fuck they can get their hands on and you know even in these 4th gen aircraft each selling country is giving them a bullshit version of the avionics/EW suites.
We know for a fact that Qatar was buying allies. Selling them all that gear was as much a political statement by the sellers as it was by the buyer.
Do some people really still unironically think stealth doesn't work? WVR combat, seriously?
In retrospect, the British probably should have joined the French instead of the German project, since it would have given them a CATOBAR capable fighter.
However ultimately it was probably more about workshare than capabilities.
Funny to imagine the prospect of the UK running a shared carrier fleet (serious idea at one point) with the French with a rafale air wing.
Probably would have made Brexit more awkward.
I'd say also some F-35C, but if the British were no longer big partners In the STOVL B variant, it's possible that program would be quite different.
>ultimately it was probably more about workshare than capabilities
Eurofighter is kind of a committee fighter in that production and upgrades has to be jointly agreed; France decided to go their own way rather than be saddled with that command structure
>it would have given them a CATOBAR capable fighter
This would have severe knock-on effects on the entire British military. HMS QE and POW would be at least half again as expensive to operate, forcing them to either make heavy cuts to other parts of the military, or settle for one carrier only. You can see for yourself what the French decided on. Also it would mean taking up F-35Cs instead of (or in addition to) F-35Bs, which as it is the most troubled variant would mean the British carrier wing only gets 5th generation fighters several years after they did IRL.
Why not build smaller carriers? QE is 50% larger than ark royal yet carries basically the same aircraft complement, presumably with a lower sortie rate as well due to STOVL operations and no ability to launch fixed wing tankers or AEW.
>Why not build smaller carriers?
With carriers, bigger is always more economical.
>presumably with a lower sortie rate as well due to STOVL operations
Higher sortie rate due to improvements in aircraft handling and her automated munitions handling system, picrel.
The British are experts in sortie generation, anon; they learned all about it in 1982. QE is larger so that flight ops run smoother. Also push come to shove, you can stuff more aircraft into deck parks if you absolutely have to. The British usually like to operate with wide margins.
>carries basically the same aircraft complement
Hardly. Invincible maxed out at about 22 aircraft during the Falklands. QE cn operate about 40 aircraft normally, and 50 to 60 in varying conditions of overload.
>no ability to launch fixed wing tankers or AEW
That's the trade-off necessary when you want TWO flattops on a European defence budget.
Unless you hack the fuck out of the Army and Air Force, and probably your escort fleet to boot.
Seriously, the cost of operating a Nimitz is at least twice that of QE.
Rafael is cool but, Gabrielle, Uriel, and Michael are clearly superior. Best is Metatron.
Either way, look up what Rafael achieved during the War in Heaven. One basic Seraphim could bring down 100 F-22s lol, let alone a Cherubim or a true Arch Angel. That's not even getting into the Ancient of Days, the Queen of Heaven, the Blessed Virgin, and Christ the Logos.
To be sure, the Whore of Babylon and the Four Horsemen are real threats, as is the Beast and the Antichrist, but they won't win.
>Best is Metatron
It's hard to compete with Cybertronian technology
Not going to lie, I don't see how Moloch, Baal, Ashthera, Beelzebub, Secclus, Yaldaboath, and Lucifer expect to win this battle. Even if they've made ground in territory and souls, winning most souls to their side by now, the advantages of the Risen over the Fallen is too great.
When the Holy Spirit assisted Gideon he was able to put an army of 140,000 Midionites to flight with a night raid of just 300 men blowing hornes. And as for defensive works, recall the Siege of Jericho.
>put an army of 140,000 Midionites to flight with a night raid of just 300
retards who drink like dogs, don't forget
My favorite one is when they put one of the Canaanite armies to rout after God hits them with an earthquake and then he leaves the sun in the sky for 48 hours so they can keep chasing them down.
>Angel art - man with wings in a robe
>Angel description in the Bible - weird wheels with eyes and a four sided head with the face of an ox, lion, eagle, and dog, with multiple wings and eyes everywhere.
>Angel description in the Bible - ordinary dudes, no wings but so damn good looking you'd rather roger them and not Lot's jailbait
Never do a joint project with the French.
italians are worthless arabs
>Italian-French fighter
It's going to be both the most beautiful aircraft to ever exist on the face on the earth and the worst performing one.
>Italian-French fighter
I'd sell my soul to see this.
The fuck are you talking about? Italians make excellent radars. Spanish MIC is likewise very competent in a lot of sensitive high-tech aerospace fields.
>Joint Italian-French projects are always cool
Such as?
Fremm, Horizon, Aster.
Fuck my swiss government for bitching out of the gripen deal, not atleast getting rafale or typhoons and instead opting for f-35s that are now being delayed due to our handling of the ukraine situation.
Lmao at all the pathetic euros itt, F35 reigns supreme and there’s nothing you fags can do about it.
fuck off dude, nearly all of us have it on order already except the lazy Manuelo's and Jorge's
and the butthurt Pierres
(implication was they'll buy it too but they've been too lazy to get it done t. joke explainer)
The euro is right, every country in Europe is going to buy the F-35 because there simply is no competitor.
The French fucked up massively by not developing a 5th generation aircraft, now even minor nations like Belgium are going to mog the outdated French gen 4++++ aircraft.
Eh I mean, while it's an inferior jet, I think the French nation & state will survive it just fine. It's nice to have some second-tier planes available from our friends to friends we don't trust quite as much.
>implying the F35 is 5th gen
Please, at best we give it 4.5 and the Rafale is considered by many the best fighter in the world in all but overblown stealth meme.
The whole concept of fighter generation is marketing/infowar bullshit as one can check all the box while inferior in most specs like the F35.
Plus the F35 still operate like a early-access prototype with 50% of them grounded or needing retrofit.
>Rafale is considered by many
by whom?
Those who chose it over the F35
Literally nobody has chosen Rafale over F-35. F-35 has a 100% bid win-rate.
>pretending US not allowing anyone else to buy the F-22 is the same as Typhoon losing bids because it's a huge pain in the ass to maintain
>F-35 has a 100% bid win-rate
More like 100% diplomatic and financial pressure.
>100% bid win-rate
Bullshit since the Swiss had to use double standard to justify the F35 flying less.
Beside political shenanigan they put enough pressure and bribes there's not even a competition.
I think beautiful planes are better planes.
So my ranking is F14> F15> Rafale > F22 > A 10 (cute!)> Mirage 2000> F8> F18 > F35 = Eurofighter
The simple fact that the Rafale generates such an unholy amount of seethe from the rest of the world (especially anglos and mutts) is the proof the french have built an incredible plane.
Merci copain.
>Literally nobody has chosen Rafale over F-35. F-35 has a 100% bid win-rate.
The UAE did settle for 80 Rafale instead of 50 F-35 when Biden told them the only jets they could get would be monkey models specially built to not be a threat for israeli F-35s.
>we will have to wait for the 6th generation
Italy is already in GCAP you silly frog. I can't imagine a reality where France joins either so I think you're out of luck.
Pastas, Frogs and Bongs collaborating always lead to pure unfiltered kino.
What you don't want is collaborating with Krautcuckland. They'd change the specs midway to make a nuclear carrier project now be fueled by fucking coal and a sail because it's greener according to the broom in their ass. You know it's true.