Italian MBT & IFV procurement

Now that the talks between Leonardo and KNDS failed, what is Italy gonna replace the Ariete and Dardo with?

Leopard 2A8, tracked Boxer, MGCS as proposed by KNDS are off the table, so what now?

KF51 Panther + KF41 Lynx together with Rheinmetall?

K2 Black Panther + AS21 Redback together with Hyundai + Hanwha?

CV90 from BAE?

Some new domestic design solely by Leonardo?

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    some rheinmetall slop probably

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      do you figure Rheinmetall is more open to tech transfer than KNDS?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They work with BAE, who have worked with Leonardo a lot through MBDA and Eurofighter. So there’s probably some mutual understanding in the business and Rheinmetal seems keen to grow their business outside the confines of German politics so might welcome another joint venture

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          yeah, the BAE-Rheinmetall joint venture for the Chally 3 made me think it's possible too
          an Italianized KF51-U would be kino tbqh

          Didn’t they already order Leos 2a8 some months ago?

          no
          the Italian parliament ratified the purchase, but talks between KNDS and Leonardo failed afterwards, so now it's seen as highly unlikely that the Italian government will order Leo 2A8

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            is that a armata????

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    italy has no need for an army period. carabinieri are more than sufficient, they should airmaxxing and shipmaxxing

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      they're already navy&air force maxxing tbqh
      but the army needs some love too

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Their position means that tanks are hard to use whereas amphib forces may be more useful.

        Perhaps they're going to wait a bit and see how the Marines fair restructuring to get rid of tanks - maybe they'll scrap tanks altogether aside from a few upgraded Arietes.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >italy has no need for an army period
      i'm sure the senate said the same thing before the gauls invaded

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    without shells useless

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Didn’t they already order Leos 2a8 some months ago?

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >K2 Black Panther + AS21 Redback together with Hyundai + Hanwha
    Italy is neither poor like Romania nor has any political beef with the Krauts like Poland so it makes very little sense for them to go full Korean. Meloni oddly enough also has a pretty good relationship with the Germans. My guess is going to be they'll go with Rheinmetall.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Meloni oddly enough also has a pretty good relationship with the Germans. My guess is going to be they'll go with Rheinmetall.
      Krauts are this delusional lmao.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Tbqh, why would they need to replace Ariete and Dardo which are already good enough?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      they're 1990's era vehicles. May be able to inrease their lifespan through modernizations, but that's about it. UK, France, Germany are all upgrading their MBTs and IFVs too. (Chally 3+Ajax/Leclerc XLR+VBCI/Leo 2A8+Puma)

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Abrams is a 70s design and it will be in service for the next few decades.

        Are they? I've never seen Italian vehicles tested

        Yes.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Are they? I've never seen Italian vehicles tested

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      in a word (or four), digital networked open architecture

      also sensors, and probably advanced materials and engine and suspension and gearbox as well, but I'm not a car guy so I dunno

      Abrams is a 70s design and it will be in service for the next few decades.
      [...]
      Yes.

      >Abrams is a 70s design and it will be in service for the next few decades
      will be in service =/= the leading MBT of the US Army

      https://i.imgur.com/50ujsfO.jpeg

      Now that the talks between Leonardo and KNDS failed, what is Italy gonna replace the Ariete and Dardo with?

      Leopard 2A8, tracked Boxer, MGCS as proposed by KNDS are off the table, so what now?

      KF51 Panther + KF41 Lynx together with Rheinmetall?

      K2 Black Panther + AS21 Redback together with Hyundai + Hanwha?

      CV90 from BAE?

      Some new domestic design solely by Leonardo?

      >so what now?
      can they collaborate with the bongs?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >in a word (or four), digital networked open architecture
        Are you joking? Electronics is literally the easiest part to modernize. I don't understand why you're bringing it up at this point since Abrams didn't have any problems with it. In the worst case, it would just slap HITFACT turret on it.
        >will be in service =/= the leading MBT of the US Army
        Yes, but neither is Ariete newly produced. Italians are more willing to save its defense industry than just giving away multi billion euros to its competitors in Germany.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Electronics is literally the easiest part to modernize
          Wrong
          You're talking about trying to cram 2020s and future electronics into 90s armoured vehicles. The physical dimensions no longer fit.
          Upgrading electronics also involves upgrading the power supply, cooling, and very importantly for a tank, the protection of said electronics.
          >Abrams didn't have any problems with it
          Abrams isn't open architecture and the FBCB2 while advanced (as usual with America) is dated as well.
          >just slap HITFACT turret on it
          Similarly, we are way past the point when we can just "slap" a new turret on. The Challenger 3 programme revealed that the modern tank turret is fully 2/3rds of the cost of the entire tank, because that's where all the electronics goes. Once again: digital networked open architecture. That's where the cost is.
          >Italians are more willing to save its defense industry than just giving away multi billion euros to its competitors in Germany
          Out of the NATO Big Four armies in Western Europe (not counting Spain), Italy ranks the lowest in defence expenditure after Germany, UK and France. The other West Europe NATO countries are tiny and have limited individual relevance.
          So no, Italians aren't in fact as "willing" as you thought.

          and this is just what *I* happen to know. once again, I know nothing of
          >advanced materials and engine and suspension and gearbox
          but I'm quite certain there have been significant advances in these areas since... whenever Dardo and Ariete were built.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Wrong
            >You're talking about trying to cram 2020s and future electronics into 90s armoured vehicles. The physical dimensions no longer fit.
            >Upgrading electronics also involves upgrading the power supply, cooling, and very importantly for a tank, the protection of said electronics.
            Proof? If I remember correctly, Leopard 2 is literally a 70s design and it has no difficulties with integrating modern digital equipment with little modifications.
            >Abrams isn't open architecture and the FBCB2 while advanced (as usual with America) is dated as well.
            The hack do you even mean by open architecture? Abrams has never had any difficulties with installing new equipment so far and you're just making shit up. Also FBCB2 is bound to be replaced with JBC-P.
            >Similarly, we are way past the point when we can just "slap" a new turret on.
            But that's literally what the RH has been doing with it's cutting edge KF-51?
            >The Challenger 3 programme revealed that the modern tank turret is fully 2/3rds of the cost of the entire tank, because that's where all the electronics goes.
            Never said it's not. Also, what makes you think it's inadequate to modernize Ariete from the 90s, when modernizing Challenger 2 from the 80s isn't?
            >Once again: digital networked open architecture. That's where the cost is.
            Once again, you're simply spamming a buzzword that you can't even grasp.
            >Italy ranks the lowest in defence expenditure after Germany, UK and France.
            What does it even have to do with the topic? Italy owns Leonardo, one of the largest defense contractors in Europe. The hell would they want to rule out its contribution to the domestic procurement program?

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Not the guy you were talking to, but: what does Leonardo even do? I know they produce stuff, but what are their most successful, best-selling products? I don't hear about them as much as other companies like Rheinmetall, Hanwha, Lockheed, Northrop Grumman. When I hear Italy I only think Centauro 2.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >what does Leonardo even do?
                iirc they have a very good electronics division
                Italian MIC basically went in on radars and related electronics, and naval guns
                not particularly impressive in other areas

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Helicopters, they also make the currently best trainer jet and good naval stuff

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It literally produces radars used in Eurofighters.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >you're just making shit up
              You're not getting any answers from me with that goddamn attitude.
              I may disagree with your opinions but I don't accuse you of making shit up. Do me the same favour or go frick yourself.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >b-but muh feelings...
                Lol you're just too incompetent to refute all of that.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    they should just buy some CV90s and build more Centauros

  8. 2 weeks ago
    T-I-G-E-R-S

    EMBT on the improved Leclerc hull, BWP Borsuk

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      i'm surprised nobody is speculating about a potential joint partnership with france, considering they're arguably the ones dealing the most with italy. everyone immediatly jumps at the conclusion that the germans will be the ones getting the dough. although they don't have the brand recognition of the krauts, france is making some cool looking toys, it's all a matter of adjusting the sticker price

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        France will kill the production lines after 5 years of production

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          https://i.imgur.com/5CIgIhO.png

          France will allocate all the parts and service techs to itself and toss its partners the leftovers

          please, we're not like the australians or americans caving at the last second and throwing billions down the drain. we're reliable partners

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            have a nice day frog.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        France will allocate all the parts and service techs to itself and toss its partners the leftovers

        • 2 weeks ago
          T-I-G-E-R-S

          So does the Rheinmetall

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        France can't build shit

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