Is there anything more devastating than a shotgun slug for home defense? I mean this thing must damn near rip a man in half.
Is there anything more devastating than a shotgun slug for home defense?
Is there anything more devastating than a shotgun slug for home defense? I mean this thing must damn near rip a man in half.
A tiger.
tigershot
is it a shotgun round fit for tigers like buckshot is for bucks?
Is it a shotgun that shoots tigers?
>Is it a shotgun that shoots tigers?
Yah just ask Siegfried and Roy about that one
>Tiger
TIGER
The tiger
He destroyed his cage
Yes
YES
The tiger is out
A simple M1911 chambered in .45 ACP is deadlier
Hell yes brother, two world wars!! A 1911 is what God packs when he's ready to finally kill Satan.
This but completely unironically. No gods except for chinese ones would run around with plastic pieces of shit.
This claim requires corroboration.
My favorite shirt is proof enough.
two world wars gay
Two world wars and zero demands from the Germans to be banned from war.
All the complainers died to .45 ACP before they could raise their voices.
You see, we didn’t use nukes to bomb Japan. They were a front for what really happened. The US government discovered the ‘Earth Shattering’ ability of the .45 ACP Cartridge. They used the nukes as a ploy for the real plan. The pilot would stick their 1911 handgun, chambered in God’s caliber, and fired twice. The gravitational pull of the earth combined with the weight of the projectile produced the explosion we see in history classes all over the world, images of Japanese men’s shadows forever burned into the earth. Ladies and gentlemen the 1911. Thank you John Moses Browning for constructing a ‘small arm’ of this magnitude only for boomers to belligerently explain why it’s the only firearm anyone needs in their home.
While Moses invented the glorious 1911 it was John Wayne who proved it in the Pacific during the island hopping campaigns of the Boxer Rebellion, Bruce Lee being the only enemy survivor thanks to his uncanny ability to avoid tournament fighting.
i corroborate it.
4 bore birdshot/buckshot
>4 bore birdshot
I've had people tell me this would be non lethal.
.410 birdshot at close enough range is enough to make someone a non-threat and eventually dead, i dunno who told you that but they are retarded.
that's not a surprise. 410 birdshot at under 7 years is basically taking a heavy hardcast .454 bullet to the chest.
No it is absolutely not you tard
alright, let's take the following #9 .410 ammo, which is a good representation of a normal .410 birdshot.
That's 13/16 oz of lead shot, which is 355 grains equivalent weight, traveling at 1100 fps. A .454 ammo, which is for example a .45 colt bullet usually is around 160 to 350 grains. Some heavy hardcast lead .454 casull ones go up to .400 grains. So far so good in terms of equivalence. .45 colt travels at around 900 to 1300 fps depending on load. Again, fairly comparable. At 7 yards, .410 #9 has only an inch spread. This is absolutely comparable performance for home defense. And if you're gonna be retarded about it, just pour some wax into it and make it a wax slug weighing at 14/16 oz. going 1100 fps.
Now of course you could absolutely optimize that kind of home defense setup with .410 if you wanted to, doesn't have to be this particular load of birdshot. For example, brits have access to .410 magnum shells for high pheasant hunting, that's #6 or #7 loaded with 300 grains of shot moving at 1400 fps. That's comparable to some .454 casull loads at 7 yards for home defense. https://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/game/cartridges/high-pheasant-magnum-410
Brits have access to every type of shotgun shell. Slugs require another level of license like a rifle but that's it.
yeah their selection is ironically better than what we have access to in the US, especially for anything outside of 12ga. Huge variety of 20ga, 16ga, 28ga, and .410 that we simply do not have in the US. And some environmentally friendly stuff like fabric wads and dissolving plastics.
Order online, we get shotgun HE rounds and dragons breath shipped to your door.
>their selection is ironically better than what we have access to in the US
That's a load of bullshit and you know it.
for shell selection especially in anything other than 12ga, British have access to a wide variety of types that we don't even import in the US. All we have is standard shot sizes in standard shells from federal and winchester and the like.
Specifically what can you the bongs get that’s impossible to get here?
>British have access to a wide variety of types that we don't even import in the US. All we have is standard shot sizes in standard shells from federal and winchester and the like.
We literally have a wide selection of meme rounds and we import from almost every country.
>That's 13/16 oz of lead shot, which is 355 grains equivalent weight, traveling at 1100 fps
No you are completely wrong. Again you tard. A .410 slug is equivalent to a .454 casull. Birdshot is not one solid mass and does not act as one solid bullet. Each pellet starts slowing and acts independently the second it leaves the barrel. In terms of terminal ballistics the pellets aren’t penetrating the same as a 13/16oz chunk of lead. Some pellets (stack) and follow the wound path of the leading pellet but each pellet weighs only a few grains and does not penetrate well.
Ballistics gel isn’t the end all be all, but show me any birdshot getting to 12” of penetration. Let alone #9 shot. Meanwhile any .454 will shoot clean through a 16-18” gel block. This doesn’t mean birdshot can’t be lethal but it is no where near one comprehensive mass.
>In terms of terminal ballistics the pellets aren’t penetrating the same as a 13/16oz chunk of lead. Some pellets (stack) and follow the wound path of the leading pellet but each pellet weighs only a few grains and does not penetrate well.
Looks like they penetrate well enough to me.
>but show me any birdshot getting to 12” of penetration. Let alone #9 shot. Meanwhile any .454 will shoot clean through a 16-18” gel block. This doesn’t mean birdshot can’t be lethal but it is no where near one comprehensive mass.
Why did you purposely ignore this? Is because it proves you wrong? Rather than be argumentative you could learn more about guns instead. Guns are neat and no one knows everything
Buckshot would have made that a game ender. I never understood the birdshot cope when buckshot is 100x better in every way for humans.
>but at point blank it could penetr-
So can buckshot. And at 20 yards as well. In fact buckshot does the job better every single time. People make all these claims about point blank and 5 yards as if it matters. People die from blanks at that range.
> I never understood the birdshot cope when buckshot is 100x better in every way
Because people have birdshot everywhere, and some waterfowl loads are real close to the size of buckshot. Then some retarded noob reads that you can use that for HD and he goes and buys some #8 target loads for HD.
there are videos of school shooters shooting teenage girls in the face with birdshot and they walk away and dont lose even their eyes
post vid
heres one I found. birdshot at very close range, girl just walks awayholding her chest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc9ZeHIGphk
This is unironically a completely recoverable flesh wound and you wouldn't be seeing this picture if buck or slugs were used.
>A .410 slug is equivalent to a .454 casull
No it isn't.
Yeah you’re right. I was oversimplifying to get a point across. .410 slugs weigh significantly less than a normal .454 casull but they do move a couple hundred fps faster (from a full length shotgun barrel).
It’s the power of a 40 caliber muzzleloader in shotgun shell
At least with slugs I think that was the original intent
You know absolutely nothing about terminal ballistics. BB sized birdshot is the minimum that will reliably penetrate a coyotes skull. You need to stfu about things you don’t know and don’t understand.
moron I have seen 12 gauge 7 1/2 fail to penetrate a grey squirrel's hide at distances of less than 10 yards
Even crap non buffered buckshot loads that are plenty good for in home distances are cheap enough to never ever justify using birdshot for anything other than small game.
oz.
Anon are you actually retarded?
I don't understand, can you simplify it for me?
oh come now, it said 13/16oz in the rest of the post, probably a typo.
why are you shooting 7 year olds?
it's a sport.
>Boss, you killed a child!
Claims I have heard passionately defended by multiple people
>5 shells of 12ga birdshot at 5 yards would not be lethal
>10 shells of 12ga birdshot at 5 yards would not be lethal
>A 4 Bore loaded with Birdshot would not be lethal
>A 2 bore loaded with Birdshot would lot be lethal
>ripping a three inch deep layer of someone's entire torso clear off of their body exposing their ribs and organs would not consistently stop them
They'll usually cage their comment by saying "well maybe it'd be a psychological stop" or something along those lines.
I'm not relying on birdshot, it's for birds. It might kill someone, it might not. Buckshot will.
>eventually dead,
The trick is to make them dead before they make you dead, presumably if you're shooting someone they're a thread to you. Making them dead now rather than later is a real good idea.
>I'm not relying on birdshot, it's for birds. It might kill someone, it might not
As long as you also say the same about pistols unironically. Otherwise you're a fag and a coward.
Say what about pistols? They weren't designed to hunt little birds with hollow bones. What were 9mm and .45 invented for? To kill people, full stop.
Way too many uninformed anons on this board when it comes to shotguns. Birdshot absolutely will kill.
you bullshit but I heard a guy tell me once that he stepped on a tank mine in 'nam that sent him 300ft in the air, blew him into 5 pieces, and had field medics stitch him back together in a field. Also said he had 5 gold plated m1's buried in his back yard. Boomer sensationalism is real.
mfw
birdshot has multiple sizes (dont know where BBs fall into but probably still birdshot).
no9 is 2mm and probably wont do much and is very common in upland hunting woodcocks and shit,
a lot of shotgun accidents happen during upland hunts , rarely deaths, at least none that i have ever heard of,
also if you get accidentally shot it probably happened at some distance and smoll pellets loose a lot of energy over distance. no3 (3,5 mm ) is also used for woodcock and where I live for Wabbits. that might do someone in up close. then again it might not considering there are x rays of people receving a full load to the face (of nonspecifyed birdshot) and none getting into the skull.
>might be the resoult of the opposite of survivors bias, basically who is going to x ray a dead hunter.
, no1 (4mm) is probably lethal but In my experience very rare in upland. BBB (4,8 mm) are very likely to do someone in within 10 yards and I base that opinion upon nothing but a guestimate
no4 buck is 6,1 mm and that one is very definitely lethal.
basically unless there is a test of somekind specifying the type of birdshot used ) is best to stick around no4 buck sizes, already low overpen, going lower then that general size of pellet is a bit overkill IMO.
>also within 5 yards, flannel fag did a decent test at 25:00 minutes of the vid but i cant find which size he used. seems effective but it is not a human body
This man said 4 bore you absolute mongs
no shit sherlock, the joke here was that .410 can be used for home defense and be deadly, of course 4 bore will be too.
If you're gonna rip a man in half, do it with your bare hands
No
no. simple as
a literal cannon. Have a choke and mount a cannon pointing at it.
english please
This. I had a mega groid tell me you cant use a cannon to commit mass murder. As someone who has literally shot a Civil War era cannon, I had an aneurysm hearing that level of stupidity.
A hand grenade
i think id rather get shot with a slug than a 308 or something
Idk a .308 might icepick more. A slug is game over.
I'd rather not get shot at all
>I'd rather get hit by a bus than a challenger
They're both insta-kill anon.
Dunno, I only load slugs for home defense but I live in Europe and our houses are not made from wood or cardboard but bricks and I can think at least a couple of cases in my house where I might want to hit something behind something else. So slugs it is. Plus 3a armor (the only one you can realistically get) won't save you.
why do euros pretend that they are allowed to use guns for self defense?
Because we are.
Most European countries have proportional self defense laws. If an attacker has a weapon, you may use one to defend yourself.
What's not possible in most cases is a firearm license specifically for self defense (or only under extreme circumstances). But if you have a firearm license for any other reason, hunting, for instance, you can use it to defend youself in a home defense scenario where the intruder is armed.
Armed doesn't necessarily mean with a firearm, by the way, but the lower the threat they pose, the harder it's going to be to clear you of all charges in court.
>proportional self defense laws
That's bullshit. How am I supposed to know the intent and armament of a home invader or aggressor? Are you fags really expected to operate under a bullshit RoE when someone is actively trying to hurt you? Straight up reminding me of making home rules for Goldeneye or some shit. What do you do if a home invader is unarmed? Is it Slappers Only in the foyer? What if he's got a knoif in his pocket? Does he call Time Out to let you know he's now armed and, being an honourable European criminal, will wait for you to arm up in a proportional manner?
It is wank because its on such a case by case basis, one judge might say you used excessive force, while on another day you might not even end up in front of a judge because the police officers leading the case decide you did act reasonably and not even charge you.
You have to be very sensible, if you come home and there's a guy in your house who gets violent, you can beat the shit out of him, but if they try to escape you have to let them go.
You also need to tell the police straight away and make sure you emphasise that they got violent first, and hope the stars align above.
You don't. But that's the point, they don't want you trigger happy. Again, it's not so much about the intruder's armament, as it is about the intent. Basically no traps and no shooting from the back and the rest is rather easily defensible in court (in a home invasion/defense situation, trespassing outside is harder to defend, obviously).
That's not how the law works in Europe (and I'm pretty sure it's not how it works in the US either).
You will be prosecuted no matter what, and the court will decide whether you're guilty or not.
>no shooting from the back
no shooting in the back*. Especially if they are running away, duh.
Yes it is though, if you act in reasonable self defence the police and prosecution service may decide that you did not commit any crime and not prosecute you. Pic related is the most recent one I'm aware of, guy was arrested, but released and then no charges were made after investigation
good thing european law system isnt autistic as the US circus
>proportional self defense
Having to meet a criminal on their own terms to make it a fair fight is retarded.
bullshit, you can shoot an attacker if life is threatened. of course you can.
but yeah indeed typically one cant get any type of firearm on the basis of self defense (anymore, in most euro countries)
>What's not possible in most cases is a firearm license specifically for self defense (or only under extreme circumstances).
What is the purpose if a weapon, if not the defense if one's rights, liberty and life?
Criminals are bullies, not warriors; when they see their homy's head explode, they tend to not stick around to be next, but even if they did, I'm confident enough in my skills with a Mossberg not to need 30 shots.
The most based bong.
The law in Tennessee is pretty reasonable.
In essence, if you are inside and the intruder is outside, you are not threatened (except in an extreme circumstance) so lock the door and call the cops.
If he comes INSIDE and a reasonable person would thinks he's a threat, then just shoot him.
Even in Bongland you can, it just depends on the circumstances.
>Something slightly based happening in Europe's asshole
What the fuck?
The guys went for the knife drawer when the guy challenged them, so he could reasonably claim fear for his life and be justified in shooting.
its from 2012
And? Nothings changed in the law since then, it's just the best example I know of that proves you aren't automatically going to jail of you shoot someone in self defence here. Pic related is more recent, and was a knife, but he would have fine if he used a firearm still.
The UK isn't America, there are very few hoke invasions that result in deaths here.
pathetic, also didn't involve a firearm. subjects of the crown are not entitled to use firearms for self defense.
And he was then released after the police investigated and found that he had acted lawfully.
>let me tell you about your country.
We'll ask you when we need to know about diabetes and morons, thank you very much.
This article is 10 years old
Had it been invaders the tosser would have fried
I'm not allowed. I can get out of jail. But i can't get out of the wooden box.
In Spain the law is beyond retarded and you must fight back with similar force. If the intruder is not using a weapon and you use a knife to kill him, then it was not selfdense, you killed the poor thug and go to jail. Intruder uses a knife but you shot him with your hunting shotgun then you are a murderer, even if the poor muslim decided to go into your home at night and cut you several times before you were able to grab your weapon.
Marry some burgerbeaner and escape, then pass yourself off as a Mexican.
It's really the UK that has the most draconian gun/self defence laws. The rest of Europe is generally much better.
>Plus 3a armor (the only one you can realistically get) won't save you.
3a armor stops shotgun slugs. You will be severely hurt but you won’t die.
It doesn't matter, threat is neutralized. There's practically 0 chance an attacker can fight back after receiving a slug to the chest, pen or no pen. Paul Harrell also has a video of this, the force applied is devastating.
>severely hurt
>threat neutralized
Not happening. In 2001 my neighbor (a las vegas metro officer) was shot at under 10 yards with 2 slugs from a double barrel shotgun simultaneously. He had on soft body armor at the time, and said it was like getting hit with a baseball. However, the adrenaline dump was so intense he didn't actually feel any pain until the day after. Believe it or not the shooter was taken down with non-lethal force and arrested. He kept asking "why did you shoot me dude?" and the guy just kept apologizing for it.
A slug won't tear a man on half, but it absolutely will put him on the ground, and he'll probably be dead.
For indoor use, I recommend #4 BUCKshot.
It has a good balance between pellet size, pellet count and low penetration, since you are responsible for everything that comes from the muzzle and everything it does.
My house in America is made from wood, and it seems good enoughbto last while being less expensive to rebuild in an area prone to tornadoes, and yes, a tornado will tear down a brick house with little difficulty.
There's a whole street of small, cheap brick homes on the next block; I have no idea where the "Americans don't have bricks" meme came from but it's fucking retarded.
why do we have 12 different threads that are all absolute noguns trash topics?
Better than slavposting
I'd pick buckshot before a slug but a well placed slug is absolutely devastating. But then again buckshot is devastating too.
>this thing must damn near rip a man in half
The hole is leaves at close range is devastating. Have you seen these things just vaporize watermelons? Imagine what that does to the human body. The hydrostatic shock would leave a cannonball-sized hole in your back. Nothing has more stopping power (at close range) than a slug.
Humans are stronger than Watermelons.
They are more dense, which really just enable most effective energy transfer. Anyways, this is what you want if a future astronaut doctor the size of a grizzly bear breaks into your house.
God damn phone made me sound like pajeet.
>most effective energy transfer
Quicker energy transfer. To determine the efficiency you must figure out how much of that energy actually ends up doing what you want (ripping apart tissue) as opposed to just dissipating harmlessly, which no one does.
okay nerd
>has never hunted an animal with a 12 ga slug
>has never seen a 12 ga slug entry & exit wounds
>proceeds to lecture PrepHole about shotgun slugs
I've killed quite a number of deer with both 12 & 20 ga slugs. Ask me how I know you're full of shit?
> inb4 "A SHOTGUN SLUG WILL ABSOLUTELY PICK YOU UP OFF THE GROUND AND THROW YOU 20 FEET BACKWARDS WHILE DISINTEGRATING YOU INTO MEAT PASTE
Retard.
FWIW, slugs completely pulverize ballistic dummy heads too.
?t=550
It's the best really, not that buckshot or proper bird shot is bad. BB is a personal favorite.
As far as slugs are concerned, these are good for gome defense. Consistently break into three pieces when hitting the target. So you're getting the full energy without the risk of over penetration.
Lots of videos on YouTube of these being shot at things
Forgot the back of the box doesn't say the name
Winchester PDX1 segmenting slug
Here's a video of it shooting gel for fun
?si=Sb0vRZYNFtvrrZe3&t=157
Paul Harrel did a few videos on gimmick shells like those. Sadly they all suck
>Sadly they all suck
huh. yeah i wondered about those.
seems like one of those things that just bound to not work the way one might expect them to
?si=jXZjEuClK3lUVcio
Yeah, you'll have to search his channel for more, but here's that ball and chain ammo. He did one with thumbtacs too
Just found out he has cancer. Pancreatic. Shit. He's done.
god dammit. fuck.
If I remember right he caught it early by chance so he's got a shot at beating it. If it was diagnosed when vast majority of the people with it get it diagnosed (at stage IV) then he'd be fucked completely.
trips confirm Paul lives another day to dome coons
people REALLY try to make a ball + some string more effective than just a big ball and it doesnt work. You can't just miniaturize something that makes some amount of sense in a canon and expect it to work in a shotgun
Ball and chain? Did they expect a pirate ship to attack?
BB seems like it would be pretty nasty inside of 25m, pic related is a small steel beer keg I shot with a random 40g BB cartridge a friend gave me, shot around 20m. The bar isn't much bigger than a dinner plate, image that's a man's chest and think about all the pellets that have also missed. Every rib will be broken, and enough will pass between to shred the lungs, heart and arteries. If the guy does manage to survive and get to a hospital, they'll have so many wounds they won't know where to start.
KYS
Slugs or Buckshot ONLY
>Every rib will be broken
wrong
>and enough will pass between to shred the lungs
wrong
>heart
definitely not enough penetration
>arteries
probably wrong
>so many wounds they won't know where to start
Still somehow wrong.
What you WILL get is something like
or
where the penetration is unremarkable, at best, and the person walks away or kills you outright.
BB is only marginally smaller than no.4 buck but nearly has double the number of pellets. It generally doesn't come in light clay busting loads and isn't usually classed as birdshot.
It's great how confidently you can say its terrible and will barely break the skin, yet use people being shot with smaller birdshot sizes of unknown power as proof of this.
>people aren't steel cans
No, skin is actually weaker than steel believe it or not, and it's the base of a steel beer keg, not a tin can. I wouldn't want to be shot with a strong BB load inside of 50m (or further) but I'm looking forward to both of you trying it out to prove how wrong I am.
I'm liking this idea of using regular .177 cal steel BBs for handloads. The option to min-max your powder, shot cup, etc. should yield some truly terrifying load possibilities. I'd think 3" shells could easily obtain 1600 fps. The question would then be, when does a load stop becoming safe for the gun you intend to shoot it out of? Is 1800 fps feasible? Desirable? Because an ounce BBs traveling at 2100 fps from 10 or 20 feet away doesn't sound very survivable.
I used to have a 30" full choke barrel for my 870. I wonder what steel shot-regulated goose hunting ranges might be obtained? Something like 2 or 4 shot is common for goose hunting, but now I'm curious to pattern BBs at range. I have a feeling that lucky hits at 100 yards to a vital organ are easily fatal for even a single BB. If the pattern density holds up far enough out, this could be viable. And also a mother of a home defense round.
I'm on the pro-BB side here. But just thought of something that needs to be considered. Lead deforms, steel bounces. You might be good on penetration-v-over penetration. But, hard surfaces like steel or ceramic or masonry could reflect steel BBs just all over the place. Even a car window at an angle. At 1500 or 2000 fps. It'd be comparable to setting off a fragment grenade at the impact point. Which could also be a Good Thing, if you know about that possibility and teach yourself how to use it. Please be safe, kids. Experimenting is fun, but thinking it through carefully is always a good plan.
Paul shooting steel BB at the meat target
?si=638Flx6tvV3mFvQj&t=613
Thank you anon, do you think
Will double down on being retards or just go quiet?
Video of actual human getting shot point blank with birdshot.
Will you double down or just go quiet?
Fucking hell moron shut the fuck up. Tell me what loading was used in that video, multiple people in this thread have clearly stated that birdshot varies massively from shitty target loads designed go pop clays to heavy loads designed to drop geese flying 50+m high.
I was personally saying that BB would be pretty nasty to be shot by, and that's not even even bird shot.
Do use all a favour and post us a video of you taking a load of birdshot from 10m sway and then you csn smugly tell me it won't do anything.
Tell me why you'd want a load where people survive a fucking shotgun blast, the most dangerous and deadly load in the world. Why the fuck would you WANT to purchase any kind of birdshot over buckshot? For what? What benefit does bb have over 00 buck when it comes to the actual factors that kill humans? Less penetration won't kill a human. You assume buckshot over-penetrates anyway, but that's actually wrong. It doesn't, in fact it comes a little on the soft side according to FBI ballistics testing. They're small, soft lead BBs flying not particularly fast compared to many bullets. Even steel bb shot is not intended for humans, and certainly not for deer or large game.
Here's another issue with steel shot. They weigh significantly less than lead. That means they don't deform but there's less momentum. They slow down significantly faster from air resistance, and lose energy quick. They're very light. You also shouldn't use steel shot with a full or modified choke because it can damage your barrel, because steel doesn't deform when passing through. It also means your patterns will be different every time through a choke, so open bore is best.
I honestly still don't understand the mass copium cock sucking for birdshot when buckshot can be found online in abundance for cheap. I actually have steel shot sitting on my dresser and I'd never load it for humans.
Muh overpenetration is a giant meme too. I've never been able to find a case where someone shot an intruder and had a projectile injure someone else because it went through a wall.
Intruder no, but police have shot a man waving a machete around in a mall and killed a girl hiding in the dressing rooms. Also alec baldwin.
>Why the fuck would you WANT to purchase any kind of birdshot over buckshot? For what? What benefit does bb have over 00 buck when it comes to the actual factors that kill humans?
This is what I never get either. Yes birdshot can be lethal. Yes it’s probably fine for home defense. But we buckshot will kill. There’s no question about it. Turkey and goose loads aren’t even cheap either. They are often more expensive than buckshot. You only save money on target loads but buying 5-10 shells of buck is all you need and that’s $5-10. It’s cheap as shit in the big picture.
The discussion is almost never, “what can birdshot/hunting loads do to a person” or “if I had to use a hunting load for SD what would be the best of these options I have”. Those are extremely unlikely scenarios but I understand the discussion from just the purely academic standpoint.
I fucking knew it was the birdshot aspie. God damn can he just not stop sucking cocks and getting blown the fuck out in every thread he's in.
Any high power birdshot load is going to be 2-3x the cost of a buckshot load that will blow it out of the water in terminal performance. You're trying to make a wheel better by adding corners
Bb isn't birdshot. I wouldn't use it myself because it's far easier just to go and buy decent 00 buck loadings that will work better.
I was just agreeing with the Anon that said it would probably work and in my experience it would probably be very nasty shooting someone inside of 25m with it.
For some reason though this has caused some sort of autistic meltdown and anons come scurrying out to tell me it will just bounce off a t shirt.
>Bb isn't birdshot.
Well actually……it is birdshot. I know what you mean and I’m being a smartass. I also agree it would work. But when BB loads are nearly $1 a shell why wouldn’t you just buy buckshot that costs the same?
>one person died
So it is lethal? Did she just take a load to the tits or was it a dud cartridge
>So it is lethal?
Sometimes. In between nukes and sternly worded letters just about everything might prove lethal, the question is how quickly and how likely it is to be so. Birdshot can kill humans, but the odds of rapid incapacitation is much lower than with something that actually penetrates properly.
reminds me of that anon who put on a steel tin as a helmet and had his buddy shoot him in the head
>BB is a personal favorite
Thank you, brothers. I've been using and advocating BB for home defense for decades. You can literally buy canisters of steel BBs at Walmart and load your own shells. You get high velocity, tight groups, and will totally mulch your target at 20 yards (and a bit further). Over-penetration is minimal in most situations, assuming you have even the most basic situational awareness of your backdrop.
BB is my go-to as a general rule, but I certainly keep other loads around for specific tasks. Since I reload shotshells, dumping copper-plated BBs into a hopper is trivial if I should ever need to again ... I've got about 250 shells in storage for the zombie apocalypse. A good starter kit to get through the first day. I really like No. 3 & No. 4 buck, but No. 1 & No. 2 are fine. Since over-penetration bothers me, No. 1 is about as large (even too large) as I want for home defense, but would rather No. 3 or down to BB. Trying to buy bags of various buck shot is an expensive pain, the only reason I don't reload those anymore. And also, I don't reload slugs. (yet)
To address the OP,
At close range, the math is pretty simple: total weight of shot multiplied by velocity. I'd rather dump 1 3/4 oz of lead into someone at 1500 fps or so than 1 oz at 1300. Obviously steel BBs are lighter and travel much faster, like 1600 to 1800 fps are possible loads (if you really want to, I'm certain anything in the 1400-1500 fps range is far more than adequate). No. 3 buck or BBs would usually be more effective than a slug because they would dump all their energy into a hamburgerized wound, where the slug can (and often does) pass through deer- & man-sized animals. The choice between steel or lead (or tungsten, for you crazy motherfuckers) is more to optimize for high-velocity loads, if you think you need them.
KYS
Buckshot or Slugs ONLY
Funny how law enforcement loads buck or slugs. I wonder why they don't use birdshot. Hmmmmmmm
probably because they are expected to be able to sucesfully engage a person much farther then the end of the hallway.
A steel can is not the same as a person. Look at ballistics tests for any of these and they absolutely will fail to reach the minimum penetration standards of the FBI, they won't even come close. People who get hit by birdshot walk away from it, and it won't stop a determined attacker by any means whatsoever.
>Im taking a wild guess here
FBI 12-16 inc pen (/might have gotten the numbers wrong) was devised because you are not always shooting a thinly clothed individual square on at 90 degrees, at very close range. sometimes you will hit the arm at 20 meters , and the bullet passes through the arm ( jacket, shirt, skin, muscle, skin, , shirt, jacket), then hit the trunk of the body (jacket, shirt, skin, muscle and then you reach the torascic cavity and start doing some serious damage).
>12 - 16 inches probably gives you sufficient pen at most distances and angles that you could possibly enter a shootout with a service pistol (low penetration and range weapon) while redu8cing overpen potential.
how the fuck does something thats supposed to stay intact UNTIL it hits the target supposed to 'compensate for aim error'?
It‘s for vital organs etc.
Normal slug - aim near heart -> miss heart
This (supposedly) aim near heart -> might hit heart
Like buckshot
at that point just use buckshot then i guess
Yeah, a full mag of 7.62x39. Shotguns low capacity doesn't inspire confidence in me consider we're starting to see South Africa tier home invasions where there's many nogs coming in at once. A shotgun would be good for 1-2 threats, but more and you're starting to have to do the reload drill shit and none of you notrainings are actually prepared for that.
>we're starting to see South Africa tier home invasions where there's many nogs coming in at once
Schizo. This is and always has been very rare. If you watch any home security footage of these rare situations, the group of home invaders always without exception starts to panic and run the moment the first shot is fired. Nobody is getting in the prolonged John Wick-style gun battle that you fantasize about in your head.
No, not always. A lot of time it's a fentanyl with a hammer that doesn't stop when you drop a full mag of 9mm in them.
So don't drop 9mm in them, dump a tube of 1oz slugs in them
So is it a fentanyl fiend with a hammer or is it many nogs? Doesn't matter but pick one
It's 5 fentanyl fiends.
My shotgun holds five in the tube and one in the chamber, if all are slugs then I have nothing to worry about
>fentanyl is a downer, retard. also it was never proven that the le jogger man had a hammer.
Armed robbery grabbed the shotgun though
>A lot of time it's a fentanyl with a hammer
Absolute retard.
The humble Romanian Micro Draco continues to be the finest personal defense implement. It's good to see more people recognizing this.
>inb4 moron gun
they stumbled upon it by (naively but correctly) appreciating its aesthetics
They have been used to launch molotovs, and recently, for launching standard and improvised explosive munitions in Syria against ISIS.
>Is there anything more devastating than a shotgun slug for home defense?
a musketball
It is perfectly legal to own a flamethrower.
Is it a sensible home defence weapon?
No, but I would love to see an Ayy/Skinwalker/Melanin-Rich Gentlemen shrug off a fall full of napalm.
Yea, a bigger slug
Or a strange massive gauge like 8 gauge loaded with 00 buck, at that point slugs are surperfluous
Yea but a 9mm can blow the lungs out of the body
I imagine a hollow point slug if such a thing were to exist
> I mean this thing must damn near rip a man in half.
Depends on a slug.
If birdshot won't stop a chubby college girl at point blank range, I wouldn't trust it to stop a determined attacker.
And before idiots say he missed or the shell was a dud or whatever:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spu-shooting-victim-sarah-williams-leaves-hospital/
>Williams was critically injured and taken to Harborview Medical Center, where she underwent a five-hour surgery. She was transferred out of the intensive-care unit last weekend, according to hospital spokeswoman Susan Gregg.
>critical injury
>5 hour surgery
>intensive care
Sounds like it worked as well as any pistol bullet would have, if not better
And you left out that they did kill someone
just pour wax into the birdshot like hillbillies do you fucking retards.
What would be the best way what zero with a 1oz slug would match up with a 7 1/2shot 1200fps at 30yards? Got a red dot for my a300 ultima and for fun would like to be able to take it out to shoot trap. Say I would want to zero it so the shot is set for 30yards, what zero with what kind of slug would be the closest ballistically?
You'll have to experiment, but running a bead they're all mostly the same within 30 yards, for me. I find that a 1oz federal power shok at 1,610fps shoots higher (due to more velocity) and flatter than a tru-ball penetrator or black magic slug. That's the only reason I continue to use them. They shoot flatter than everything else. At 100 yards a power shok shoots higher than point of aim while some other slugs impact lower than point of aim.
I was actually really disappointed with the black magic magnum rounds. They kick like a mule from my maverick, but at 50 yards lose so much velocity and energy they actually drop below a federal power shok 2 3/4in. Which kicks much less in my opinion.
The Magnum Crush (the best offering from brenneke) shoots just as flat as the power shoks, but the recoil is too extreme and makes me smack my teeth together, as well as really fucks up my neck. If I was in alaskan bear country though I'd have a full tube of them.
I thought rounds that are the least likely to over penetrate were the best no? If you so much as graze the neighbors dog even if frank hastle is coming for you and it's a life or death situation your life would be ruined with litigation no?
950 JDJ
No thanks. If I'm forced to rely on a shotgun for some reason I'll spend the princely sum of $10 on a box of buckshot or slugs instead of rolling the dice on the poorfag special and hoping I'm in the 17%.
I have these (the 3" version which has higher muzzle velocity) and Fiocchi #000 8-pellet buckshot.
I mean, if you cover your house in gasoline pre-emptively and set it on fire once you see an intruder then I'd imagine the effects would be pretty devastating.
Criminal: "But I've never been burned alive"
Dumbest fucking thread on here right now. If all you have is birdshit aim for the face to disable the eyes. If you have any sort of choice get buckshot or slugs.
Just get normal #00 Buckshot like a normal person you fucking retards.
Yes, explosive slugs.
Is that a fucking 40k bolter round
Pretty much, just missing the rocket propulsion. Here have another, this time in 20mm.
Is there any reason to not have a choke on your shotgun? Since there are some chokes out there that will still work with slugs/bird/buckshotm are there any downsides for just throwing one on?
Chokes won't work with steel shot or meme slugs. You also can potentially choke too much for slugs. Any choke will negatively effect the velocity of a slug, and potentially accuracy, as it squeezes through.
>You also can potentially choke too much for slugs
a foster slug can be safely fired through everything except extra full chokes which you don't see in the the US much at all.
>extra full chokes which you don't see in the the US much at all
Amerifag here, clearly you don't do much turkey hunting. Extra full is super common.
A machete.
I'm astonished and somewhat annoyed that such a retarded thread has stayed up for 4 days but in a sad twisted way it's somehow still 10x better than every single Ukraine-related thread
yeah hot take: birdshot would fucking suck to get shot by and would cause anybody except the absolute highest of strung out crack-strong meth heads from doing whatever it is they're doing.
Also even though I agree with you, you're a fucking nancy for mass replying
>We've all seen the videos of people shot half a dozen times with 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP, so if those are still effective for self defense, I guess that means a half a dozen hits to the torso is the bar to pass.
The difference being 9mm doesn't stop being lethal beyond "you would be dead if this was a blank rifle because my muzzle is pressed so far into your ribcage" distance.
Birdshot is completely insufficient for self defense and defending it is retarded gayry.
okay
Glad you're getting it.
I don't think you've ever in your entire life shot birdshot, or you would know both of those patterns are from a barrel practically touching the person.
It depends largely on the shot and the shotgun in question. Most of the impacts in my pictures were at ranges from 10-20 feet.
full choke exists
If you've ever patterned a shotgun before, if you've ever shot paper with birdshot, even casually, you'll know that the pattern does not open up to the size in these pictures at the muzzle, or even at less than ten feet, outside of extreme circumstances such as extremely light shot, rifled barrels, extremely short barrels, or some combination.
So far all of these resulted in immediate death of the victim.
>If you've ever patterned a shotgun before
If you had you would know what I said was true and you are spouting bullshit.
Birdshot is almost ok if you want to get within stabbing range of the crackhead.
Immediate death at 20 feet is what some of these men experienced. Take some measurements of the rooms in your house and report back to us.
See
You do not experience powder burns at 20 feet. Also, as far as house measurements go, 20' isn't even the distance of my hallway.
>I'm simply confident in the reality that on average birdshot would not take more hits to incapacitate at a single room's distance than, say, 45ACP
21 feet is not a decent distance. Again, not even my hallway. If I'm using a long gun for home defense I better have the option of going outside and shooting 20 yards with it, not 20 fucking feet. Again, people die from blanks at the ranges you're talking about.
I'll stick with buckshot. It seems to do a better job. Educational purposes.
>21 feet is not a decent distance. Again, not even my hallway. If I'm using a long gun for home defense I better have the option of going outside and shooting 20 yards with it, not 20 fucking feet. Again, people die from blanks at the ranges you're talking about.
People are not killed by Blanks at anything other but muzzle distance. People have been killed by Squibs launched by blanks, and by detatched bits of casing launched by blanks, debris stuck in the barrel launched by blanks, and by shot cups left in home made blanks for shotguns, but people are not killed by actual blanks unless the barrel is pressed against them.
I hope I don't have to tell you that if you press the barrel of a shotgun against someone you dont get a half a foot wide shot pattern.
The majority of defensive shootings happen within seven yards, even including those that happen outside.
>See
I trust the medical examiner more than you unfortunately.
>I trust the medical examiner more than you unfortunately
For many of those pictures from university of Alabama the medical examiner brings up powder burns and distances of less than 20 feet.
>you'll know that the pattern does not open up to the size in these pictures at the muzzle, or even at less than ten feet
This is what 20 feet looks like, and you will NOT get powder burns at 20 feet. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
Anything's possible depending on the load and barrel, anon.
>If you've ever patterned a shotgun before
Post your shotgun. They look something like this
>completely insufficient
So just to clarify, you are saying that from 10ft away, #6 birdshot to the chest or abdomen is completely insufficient to stop an attacker?
>from 10 feet
I think having to make stipulations at all makes your choice completely insufficient in any and all situations.
buckshot will kill any threat to you in a self defense situation no ifs ands or buts. 5.56 will kill any threat to you in a self defense situation no ifs ands or buts. And you keep going back to pistol rounds to try to prove a nonsense point, but yet again a 9mm center of mass is going to kill you, no hoops to jump through.
Not talking about any and all situations, talking about 10ft away, which is more than reasonable for home defense. Is it your belief that birdshot will not stop an attacker at 10ft?
>not talking about any and all
But I am. If it can't, it's trash and insufficient because my life is worth more than an internet argument.
>b-but 10 feet is good enough sometimes
Nope.
>my 2003 toyota corolla can haul a 500lb john boat, but it can't haul an 8,000lb wakeboard boat, therefore my 2003 toyota corolla is completely insufficient for all driving purposes
The difference being you don't die if your toyota corolla doesn't tow the boat. You do die if the crackhead doesn't decide to die. Minimum penetration depths standards exist for a reason, and birdshot doesn't pass.
The next is a woman who was shot in the hip, funny thing about this case (well, not for her, though she did make a full recovery) the Surgeon managed to get all of the shot out of her, he actually missed the plastic shot cup (He, being a noguns, didn't even know what that was), so the wound became infected and the poor woman had to be opened up all over again.
I provide this case because it shows the size of the wound while also showing enough of the shot pattern to be consistent with the patterning of the other cases I provided.
I hope this is not too extreme for the mods, I'm providing this for educational purposes only.
In short, my survey of birdshot injuries both lethal and non lethal leads me to concur with the likes of Paul Harrell and Jerry Miculek that at indoor ranges, Birdshot absolutely will deliver consistently debilitating injuries. To my knowledge there are no recorded cases (that don't come from hearsay) of a center mass or head hit from birdshot that did not result in the end of aggression on the part of the target. Any cursory search of records will show cases of men surviving two, three, five, even as high as twenty pistol rounds and remaining conscious, but we don't use these cases to suggest pistols are inadequate.
I would challenge anyone who believes Birdshot is completely inadequate to stop a man at indoor ranges in the overwhelming majority of cases to provide an estimate for how many birdshot shells to the chest they think WOULD constitute a reliable incapacitation in such a case. Is it five? Ten? No one will provide a serious answer, they'll either weasel out of the question, or flippantly give some astronomical number. The fact is that the width of a wound absolutely does have an effect on incapacitation, not only from shock (and shock and pain are two different things) but from impact forces and change in blood pressure. We all know instinctively that the penetration standards of the FBI are specific to pistol scale wounds, and don't logically scale up to a wound of any size, we all know that if you were to deliver a wound one inch deep to a targets say,"entire body" it would be immediately debilitating.
?si=2C9lmfWKyMUVDq_V
A comparison largely relegated to pistol calibers, but relevant.
Paul Harrell's birdshot series, for those of you who put stock in his judgement.
Your "survey" of close up shots, some with powder burns, others not clearly actually dead are telling. Since we also know there are mixed loads out there your zoomed in pics also don't have proof of it only being birdshot. Your questionable proofs are Vatnik-level Birdshot Aspie.
What we do have video-wise is the school shooting showing someone shrugging off birdshot and the cop who gets blasted in the face from ten feet away who continues firing. You trying to invoke Paul Harrell doesn't help either... Did you actually record any video of you testing it out for yourself and being the judge Paul told you to be? Link your results on a gel or meat target gay.
>A dozen medical examinations
>"Well those could be mixed loads and one of them had to be muzzle distance because of the pixels and the way that it is"
>A single security video where we know nothing about the load or what happened
>"This is fully representative and repeatable"
>Any cursory search of records will show cases of men surviving two, three, five, even as high as twenty pistol rounds and remaining conscious
Yeah pistols suck at killing people. Rifles and shotguns don’t. This has been known for well over a century. Saying birdshot is no worse than a pistol is an indictment of birdshot, not a positive.
Terrible analogy retard. More like
>my vehicle can tow what it needs to tow anytime if I use 91 octane. It can tow a 500lb John boat if I use 87 octane
>no I won’t fill up with better fuel once a year the one time I need it
>I save $5 dude
And now I should like to share two cases of survived birdshot injuries. First, this is a picture of a man who was shot in the shoulder from around twenty feet with a load of birdshot, post surgery.
As you can see, the reconstruction that had to be done to the shoulder was extensive. I still have a picture of the bone fragments that had to be removed if anyone wants to see, it's quite a little pile.
>the reconstruction that had to be done to the shoulder was extensive
And? That can happen if someone falls down the stairs. Was the shot front on and they missed? Was it sideways and stopped by the shoulder? Those are crucial differences.
For like the tenth time I’ve seen, you show up, dump your photos, and completely miss the point. It’s not
>can birdshot kill
It’s
>what does birdshot do better than buckshot at HD
The answer is nothing. Enlighten me if you think there are upsides.
I can find just as many (probably more) of people killed by .22s. That doesn’t mean .22s are a good HD choice and don’t have tons of examples of failing to penetrate to vitals. Something that can be lethal doesn’t mean it’s always lethal. Meanwhile there are tons of equivalent options which will always be lethal with a center mass shot at multiple times the average self defense range. Not picking those is stupid.
>that screw sticking out
big oof
You are talking to multiple people. I have included a picture with every one of my posts in this thread so far.
As you can see from the previous post's picture, the pattern exhibited at 15 feet is of a similar width to the previous shots.
Like I said, I keep a Rifle for home defense, I'm simply confident in the reality that on average birdshot would not take more hits to incapacitate at a single room's distance than, say, 45ACP
The prevalence of powder burns suggests an extremely close contact with the victim. The pattern falls in line with this theory and this is likely less than 10 feet away. As I said before:
>People die from blanks at that range.
I am aware of the case of the young woman being shot in the face with the shotgun at close range, but to put it simply, unless this was some one in a million chance like you read about soldiers ignoring their faces being blown off, or those videos you see on /gif/ all the time of impaled people walking around talking like normal, it's inconsistent with the results I've seen. I don't know *why* it's inconsistent, bad ammunition? Could most of the pellets missed her face? Could it have been some kind of particularly small shot, or a reduced recoil load, or mini shell? I dont know, all I know is I have seen many birdshot corpses and no other case of someone walking away from a hit to the head at that range, or twice that range, or three times that range. I dont know the intimate details of that case, but I'll always take the weight of many cases over that one, just as we don't judge pistols by that case a couple of years back where the man had a round visibly sticking out of his head, having stopped cold on the skull (I believe it was 9mm).
personally I think something like 1 1/4 oz #1 or #2 birdshot is okay (if its lead or copper, not steel). But #6 isnt and skeet/trap clay ammo is huge no
theres places where slugs or buckshot simply arent available and if thats the case you go with largest pellet and heaviest load birdshot you can get
>theres places where slugs or buckshot simply arent available
Not with that attitude.
rip Barry. We miss him here across the ocean. He was one of the people to inspire my love of the .22lr
Literally the only reason I've ever watched an iv8888 video. Least we still got Paul for now
If you're going to customize your target shells into a kind of wonky slug why not just do what Taoflerdermaus did and stuff a large ball bearing in there? That'll blow a hole through just about anything smaller than a hippo.
Paul Harrel insists that almost all Birdshot, out of the appropriate barrel, will immediately kill or incapacitate within seven yards, but no disrespect meant to the expert, if I was making use of birdshot to defend my home I would prefer one of the larger shot sizes, and one of the heavier powder loads such as is used commonly by Turkey hunters. He did test heavy loads of I believe it was #4, and it seemed quite effective by the standards of his test.
>something like 1 1/4 oz #1 or #2 birdshot is okay (if its lead or copper, not steel)
For the 3rd time this thread, why bother? I agree that those would kill someone at HD ranges. But those shells also cost about $1 a shell which is the same as buckshot. Why take a chance when you don’t save any money? There isn’t a performance increase either.
>theres places where slugs or buckshot simply arent available
Like where? Show me one place in America you can buy lead BB but can’t buy buckshot or slugs?
>Like where? Show me one place in America you can buy lead BB but can’t buy buckshot or slugs?
this may be surprising but there is world outside of US
PrepHole is a board for civlization, not thirdie filth.
However you can and some do pot their birdshot in resin or epoxy creating a de-facto slug which you should then use to murder your communist government. Wax is also used. See Taofledermaus videos.
If you handload you can easily cast your own slugs after making a mold, and you only need enough to kill your cops/military then take their Kalashnikovs.
>PrepHole
>civilized
You get to have ONE of those.
>is world outside of US
Not that matters when it comes to guns
>why bother? I agree that those would kill someone at HD ranges. But those shells also cost about $1 a shell which is the same as buckshot.
If the shotgun exists for hunting only and its owner already has heavy birdshot shells that do the job, theres no reason to buy buckshot just for HD. Thats $25 saved
If you’re using a 28” barrel hunting shotgun for HD you’re an idiot. You’re a bigger idiot for saving $5 on something that’s mean to protect your life.
well, you did say that it makes no sense to buy birdshot when buckshot costs the same. Yes it does make sense to buy hunting ammo for ones hunting shotgun thats going to be used to hunt. If said ammo also works in HD, why buy buckshot?
I think the problem here is that you cannot comprehend how someone couldnt need or want to spend hundreds into "minmaxed" HD weapons
>someone couldnt need or want to spend hundreds into "minmaxed" HD weapons
>spending literally $5 for 5 shells of buckshot is minmaxing
How about no.
Also how many guys do you know who own a goose gun and only a goose gun? I sure as hell don’t know any. I even addressed this yesterday that the discussion isn’t
>what hunting load to I have that would be best in HD if I need to
It’s
>this is why birdshot is good for HD
Completely separate discussions
I did not take part to this yesterday. My argument is that certain birdshots are good enough(notice that this is not the same as "good enough" or "better" than buckshot) and that thus one doesnt necessarily need to buy dedicated HD ammo. My go-to ammo is hexolit steel fragmentating + solid penetrator slug.
>(notice that this is not the same as "good enough" or "better" than buckshot)
"as powerful as" and "better" of course
Why would you settle for “good enough” when “best available” is right there, costs the same, and can be bought anywhere you buy goose loads?
because buckshot sucks at being birdshot. For a hunter it'll just collect dust and gets never fired. Now if you live in Memphis or some other place filled with church going dindus then I agree not investing $5 to a box of HD ammo is irresponsible negligence.
>For a hunter it'll just collect dust and gets never fired.
You mean just like the birdshot sitting in the hunters gun he has for HD?
Why didn’t you answer this?
> Also how many guys do you know who own a goose gun and only a goose gun?
You’re talking in circles.
nta but i know several old hillbilly dudes down in Kentucky who own one firearm and it's always a long barreled 12g shotgun (could and sometimes are used for geese). a lot of them are single shot break action. kind of impressive those dudes have hunted their whole lives with them.
>Why didn’t you answer this?
because its irrelevant. we talk about shotgun here. Not even goose guns whatever they are.
>You’re talking in circles.
not at all, you are just mad that not everyone has the same point of view as you. Its okay to take HD seriously and embrace consumerism, and frankly hunters should shoot more, but I dont get why you are so mad at people who dont buy dedicated HD ammo to get that final 2 % of anti moron performance out of their shotgun
>embrace consumerism
that's all it is, this anon is upset that he's been overpaying for hyped up HD ammo when cheap ass birdshot will get the job done
well not all cheap birdshot will but some of them do the job well enough. big enough pellets, heavy enough load and dense as possible material.
dont get it, 9x19 or even .22lr are considered powerful enough but 2 oz of #1 shot isnt lmao
>Not even goose guns whatever they are
>doesn’t know what a goose gun is
>acts like he knows hunters
>has the gall to lecture others on their choices
Holy shit moron post guns. A goose gun is get this, a gun used for shooting geese. It’s a colloquial term for a waterfowl oriented shotgun.
> Its okay to take HD seriously and embrace consumerism
So it’s consumerism to spend literally $5 more according to you two? Neat.
Finally
>because it’s irrelevant
No it’s extremely relevant. Your argument is predicated by serious hunters only own one gun and don’t care enough to buy other shells, despite them costing the same and having the same availability. If they own other guns then defaulting to a hunting shotgun is both retarded and a moot point. Even the old geezers I know with a couple hunting shotguns and rifles still own at least a revolver. Every gun owner under the age of 40 I know has pistols and ARs. A shotgun mogs a pistol but a full length barrel makes it incredibly awkward inside.
Why did you run away after this
You were replying so quickly this morning. Is it because you don’t even own a shotgun and it became quite apparent you don’t know what you’re talking about?
>For a hunter it'll just collect dust and gets never fired
People hunt with buckshot you know.
>good enough
means six is one and the other's half a dozen. it's a simple matter of preference
>If said ammo also works in HD
It doesn't, and people don't typically hunt ducks with BB shot. I personally use #4 for waterfowl.
>If you’re using a 28” barrel hunting shotgun for HD you’re a based long barrel appreciator
fixed that for you
long barrel chads dab on short barrel cucks
Educational content is not gore. Thank you.
Oh boy it's the birdshot schizo again.
lol this dude is trying to larp as a doctor instead of a noguns retard with a gore folder now
Samefagging wont do you any good.
Post your guns or your MD
>Birdshot can
>can
Can being the key word
>leave extremely ragged, large injuries that proceed past the ribs into the chest cavity, or penetrate the skull and expose the brain. To say a three inch wide, four inch deep hole in a man that leaves fragments of bone strewn throughout his organs is not adequate to stop an attack with a near certainty is preposterous.
Meanwhile buckshot WILL do the same and doesn’t run under penetration risk.
What does birdshot do BETTER against a person?
>What does birdshot do BETTER against a person?
Since I never once advocated for its use or said it was better than buckshot or a rifle, and made this clear several times in plain, explicit English, I'm not sure why you're asking me.
It's like if someone said Chainsaw injuries are insignificant and not reliably incapacitating, and when I pointed out that this isn't the case, even while stating multiple times I wouldn't use one as a weapon, you come charging in accusing me of thinking they're better than swords and spears.
>Can being the key word
For the love of God, I was being technically accurate, it's like you feverishly scanned the post for "gotcha" words and ignored anything else. A 9mm round "can" kill and a man "can" survive getting shot 19 times with it. At indoor ranges, Birdshot *will* produce debilitating injuries.
Quit advocating for birdshot gay nobody is gonna buy it.
Never have advocated for it, never will advocate for it. Doesn't mean it isn't consistently debilitating at indoor ranges. A sledgehammer is consistently debilitating but I don't keep one of those next to my bed.
>Since I never once advocated for its use or said it was better than buckshot or a rifle
And yet you are still completely missing my point. My point is can it kill. My point is heavy 3” lead or steel BB shells which HAVE BEEN advocated for, are just as expensive and no more common. So you are defending a round that isn’t cheaper and isn’t more accessible. Why? What’s the point?
so what if isnt cheaper or more available? sometimes you need to use what you happen to have and if thats BB or heavy birdshot load then rest assured, it will kill the shitskin just fine
What if you just have blanks? A blank pressed up against his head will kill, negating the need for birdshot.
If you're stuck with blanks then you might want to shove a fistful of dimes down the barrel before pointing it at an intruder.
>so what if isnt cheaper or more available?
For the hundredth time, what’s the point? So you concede it’s as best just as effective, and isn’t cheaper or easier to get. So what’s the advantage? How does it do if they have an arm up in front of them pellets have to go through? A side shot through a shoulder? Even lead BB could struggle there. Why take the chance?
Read this I already said on Tuesday
You aren’t saying it’s good enough if you have to. You’re promoting it as a perfectly fine alternative.
sometimes you need to use what you happen to
Because Birdshot Aspie has to lick windows when he can. Every thread goes this way way where people point out the flaws in his pics, counter with videos showing actual real world examples, and he still spergs out each and every time sliding with his goalposts and ignoring your basic point when brought up.
>BRD5UX captcha
>Can't even make this shit up lol
Him pretending to be a medical professional is a fun new twist though. I can't imagine how autistic someone has to be to get that invested in arguing over birdshot online.
>Every thread goes this way way where people point out the flaws in his pics, counter with videos showing actual real world examples
Every thread goes the same way, I post a series of real world quantifiable examples, and you winge on about a single case we dont have details on.
>I post a series of real world quantifiable examples, and you winge on about a single case we dont have details on
You have zero details on the murders or the ranges involved and neither do the medical examiners. You're pushing this against video evidence of events. You're going to lose.
Birdshot does not pattern to the width of a grapefruit at the muzzle. One of the pictures has an explicit range of 15 feet.
Birdshot will consistently deliver incapacitating or lethal injuries to the chest or head within the distance of the average room, or within the distance of the majority of self defense scenarios.
Pistol rounds will as well, despite the fact that in outlier cases people will survive many hits from pistols.
Just because Rifles and other shotgun loads are superior does not mean that in the steep majority, a load of birdshot will not be debilitating. Just because in the steep majority a load of birdshot will be debilitating, does not mean that there is any reason not to use a superior ammunition.
The anon you're trying to reason with can't be reasoned with. He does this in nearly every shotgun thread
Wrong anon unless you're the Aspie samefagging. The zoomed in shots and lack of details the Aspie provides is proof to everyone reading how dumb their claims are and continue to be.
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Pic very much related. Two cops shot in the face by birdshot from about 13-15 feet away. Both lived and you can see the spread on the one cop face at half the range Aspie claims can be/"is effective".
>Birdshot does not pattern to the width of a grapefruit at the muzzle
>figure 11-2, shotgun discharge at about 5 yards
>pattern similar to many patterns you post itt
At 5 yards I'm not even sure you need a projectile honestly. You could probably just have the wad in there and kill someone.
>does not mean that there is any reason not to use a superior ammunition
That's been my point all along. There's 0 need to compromise by using birdshot on humans. Even if you have a hunting shotgun, keep it loaded with buckshot at home and switch out the ammo when you hunt ducks. Unless you're worried ducks will break into your home and then fly overhead at 20 feet.
I’ve been saying that too and was accused of being a minmaxing cooonsumer for suggesting you buy a $5 box of buckshot. People are idiots.
>That's been my point all along. There's 0 need to compromise by using birdshot on humans.
Like I said, there's a good few people in the discussion, and I think you're misidentifying some of my posts. I don't think we disagree about not using a better ammunition whatsoever. If you forced me to use a shotgun I'd use buckshot or slugs. If you forced me to use Birdshot I'd use the heaviest load of the largest shot size I could get. I'd generally try to maximize lethality no matter what weapon I was using.
Like I said, I've only posted about the effects, not suggested the use, of Birdshot. My go to home defense gun is a rifle and I do advocate for the use of rifles because I think they perform better.
Post guns or post MD. Like I asked for yesterday. So far I’m the only person who posted a shotgun in this thread.
Not him, but I keep 00 buck in the tube and low recoil slugs on the side saddle. I'm the same anon that takes full power slugs 75-100 yards frequently.
>same anon that takes full power slugs 75-100 yards frequently
thank you for your service anon. even with video proof, some of the absolute shitforbrained copers on this board still refuse to admit the things slugs can do. carry on, slug slinger
100 yards isn't even far, I'm not sure why anyone has problems with this. If I said 600 yards, yeah sure I'm full of shit. But 100 yards? I know a guy that takes his revolvers that far on rifle plates.
>I'm not sure why anyone has problems with this
It's a skill issue and it's an issue of tons of people on this board either not owning guns or not doing the kind of shooting that they're so eager to spew bullshit opinions about
Why haven’t you posted a shotgun you own yet?
You're talking to multiple people. I've never advocated birdshot for any reason nor do I rely on it for home defense, I only described it's effects accurately.
Looks like at least in this thread nobody is advocating birdshot but at least one anon is mad about that fact that birdshot and BB can and do indeed work. If lead BB's gel penetration of 12 to 14" is insufficient then we have to consider .22lr and almost every pistol caliber also insufficient and we know that they are not. t. I provided the skeet shot to face video. Please dont use skeet or sporting ammo for HD or even suicide attempt
>If lead BB's gel penetration of 12 to 14"
It doesn't penetrate that well idiot.
it does. notice he uses steel BBs, lead would perform a lot better
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Shotguns are good as a catch-all gun which is where they really shine. You can use them for home defense in the vast majority of scenarios most people would be in and they're simple to operate, powerful, and easy to aim accurately even if you're not shooting with it shouldered. You can also use them for hunting and target shooting so there's a lot of utility there. I'd rather have something automatic with a large magazine if I'm the one that gets to pick what I'd have for home defense but in the absence of that being available a good pump-action 12 gauge is a fine enough substitute I'd trust my life with. Personally I'd load the slugs to be the last rounds shot rather than the first because most of the time some buckshot to center mass or anywhere in the torso is going to stop whatever problem I might be experiencing and because I typically only use guns to kill coyotes or hogs and it's easier to hit those with a cloud of lead than a single projectile, but yeah a slug would destroy whoever you hit with it and even if they had on lvl3/4 plates they're fucking done fighting after they get hit from the sheer force of it alone. Or at least wide open for a follow-up. If you're pissing off people that know what plates are and wear them you've got much bigger problems than ammo selection for your shotgun but it'd probably keep you alive long enough to realize you were fucked.
>even if they had on lvl3/4 plates they're fucking done fighting after they get hit from the sheer force of it alone
I doubt it. Look at this post here:
The truth of the matter is, when you have a vest or especially rifle plate absorbing energy, the energy is displaced along a larger surface area. You would feel less recoil getting shot with a slug wearing a plate than you would feel shouldering it.
Five days this thread is up now. Still unbelievable to me that this is somehow the most interesting content on this board. More of an indictment of all the Ukraine threads than praise of this thread
>Is there anything more devastating than a shotgun slug for home defense?
The Yamato
>Someone uses a different shell than me, it's over...
>The Yamato
Let's see your precious Yamato do this
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Not good for narrow corridors
The law in Texas is even more reasonable, since the porches, garage, carports (even detached) etc are considered "inside".
If you get hit clean with them without armor most medieval weapons are going to be more lethal than fire arms. Sometimes guns manage to pass through without major damage. No one has every taken a mace to the skull or been run through by a 3 foot blade and been ok though.
>most medieval weapons are going to be more lethal than fire arms
Pretty sure I read somewhere that studies of bodies found at medieval battle sites have concluded that a significant percentage of fatalities would have survived if they had access to modern medicine (whether or not they'd ever be able to walk again is another matter entirely of course).
Retard
>In my time I've seen Birdshot injuries from various ranges, including corpses (under medical examination I mean).
Post MD right meow.
Not only does he not own a gun or have a medical degree, from his posting times he’s a filthy e*ropean