Is there any actual proof that hollow points are more effective?

I have never read any scientific study or statistical analysis showing that hollow points actually end fights better than FMJ. What I do read about are instances where aggressors continued fighting after taking numerous premium HPs to the chest.

It makes sense to me that hollow points would be deadlier because they destroy more tissue in shallow targets like humans, but that's just a problem for the ambulance crew, it doesn't prevent the attacker from continuing to attack you until he succumbs to blood loss. And maybe they hurt more and have a better psychological impact on opponents with no willpower or determination to keep fighting.

I'd rather just carry the same ammo I train with so I can shoot it accurately and shoot attackers in the head or spine rather than try to rely on terminal performance as though I were deer hunting. Every single martial ultimately teaches you to finish off your opponent with a blow to the head, I don't see why shooting should be any different.

  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Yeah

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >it doesn't prevent the attacker from continuing to attack you until he succumbs to blood loss
    That's why you want as big a hole as possible, so the blood flows out faster. Simply mulching a few more grams of fats, cartilage and muscle tissue isn't going to make any real difference.

    >and shoot attackers in the head or spine
    You're so certain that you'll hit a moving target in the head or spine while stressed the fuck out that you don't think there's any reason to worry about what happens if you don't?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's never going to be big enough. A 44 Magnum doesn't make a big enough hole to bleed out an opponent in a timeframe relevant to close quarters combat. You could cut someone completely in half at the waist with a chainsaw and they could probably still shoot at you for a full minute.

      >You're so certain that you'll hit a moving target in the head or spine while stressed the fuck out that you don't think there's any reason to worry about what happens if you don't?

      Yes because I shoot every day. It comes automatically.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >You could cut someone completely in half at the waist with a chainsaw and they could probably still shoot at you for a full minute
        youve never been punched in the face hard enough to be shocked

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        If you shoot somebody close range with a 44 magnum, I would bet my life they are going to stop attacking you lmfao

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >It's never going to be big enough. A 44 Magnum doesn't make a big enough hole to bleed out an opponent in a timeframe relevant to close quarters combat.
        44 Mag is the only handgun that people who are very very serious about the possibility of actual in room and in car violence carry, all serious paramilitary hits and drug handgun hitters use 44 mag just because of its effect on softy Kevlar

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          If you shot a 44 in a car you would never hear anything again for the rest of your life.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        This is immature and unrealistic. I've unfortunately exchanged bullets with people. Training is immensely important and impactful, but pretending it's going to allow you to precisely hit organs and bones on command in a gunfight is childish. If you don't believe me go do some force on force training with sim rounds and find out how that goes, with the fear and adrenaline much lower than you'll experience in a gunfight in the wild. It's easy to think the way you do until reality takes a shit on you.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Everyone vastly over inflates their abilities especially when it deals with stressful situations. The person that brags about how badass they are and how cool they are will always be the first ones to fuck up and shit the bed in any actual real world scenario. They will put themselves in a bad situation because they think they are John Rambo himself and get fucking shot. Meanwhile the guy that isnt full of himself will wait for a good opportunity and shoot a motherfucker when he cant miss.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >That's why you want as big a hole as possible, so the blood flows out faster
      size is pretty much a non-factor. a .22 to the aorta is enough for rapid loss of blood pressure, whereas a .500 to the shoulder is more likely survivable than not. location is what matters. bigger holes destroy tissue in more locations, but only the difference in radius is what turns near misses into hits.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        This. I'd carry 22 for defense if it functioned and penetrated more reliably. I carry 9mm but I don't touch anything +p.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yes it does, that little bit of muscle is literally the reason the FBI went 10mm.

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Is ballistic gel testing the equivalent of the tests where they had someone stand outside in the winter and exhale steamy breath, then they had someone exhale into a surgical mask and there was less visible steam coming out, and that supposedly proved masks would stop covid?

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No. Every argument for hollow points boils down to "muh stoppin power" and "muh shot placement" just like the .45 vs 9mm argument.
    Just shoot whatever you want, it doesn't matter.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I think lots of people have a predisposition to fall over when shot with anything.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        That's because they've watched TV and people are retarded.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I think they're afraid of dying and think they're going to make the injury worse if they keep moving around.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            They are probably in shock if they have gunshot wounds.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Just shoot whatever you want, it doesn't matter.
      >posted from my .25 ACP

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        .25 ACP-chad

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        .25 ACP is a fine gut-blaster, I wouldn't expect it to be anything else

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Vasily Blohkin singlehandedly killed 7,000 people with a .25ACP.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            well I mean you don't exactly need expert marksmanship when you're murdering prisoners..

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            well I mean you don't exactly need expert marksmanship when you're murdering prisoners..

            oh also the russians are savages and always have been

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous
          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            https://i.imgur.com/DAck2db.png

            jesus

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Just shoot whatever you want, it doesn't matter.

      i love this crowd of people on PrepHole who act like nothing matters and you should stop being a 'tryhard'. literally the same type of gay that goes on /v/ and complains about competitive and multiplayer games. you just want to be 'comfy' with your revolver or makarov.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        in a just world, contrarians would be beaten to death

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >you just want to be 'comfy' with your revolver or makarov.
        Yes but with bolt action guns

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Well constructed hollow points make a slightly larger hole. That's it. It's maybe 5-10% more effective than FMJ at making a hole.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Making a hole high and to the left of where you train to shoot thousands of rounds per year.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        My guns are zeroed for my carry ammo.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Then you are training your brain to view an off hit as good.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Or you just train with your carry ammo.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            What kind of shit ass ammo are you using where there is a significant poi shift between your carry and range ammo?

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              this

              Then you are training your brain to view an off hit as good.

              retard

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            What? Post groups of your carry ammo and range ammo.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Post groups

              is this the new 'post guns'? do we have to start taking photos of our targets after range trips now so we can be accepted by anonymous losers online trying to win an argument? you're the same kind of person who gets mad at people for taking photos of everything they do yet you're also ASKING for said photos.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It’s fine in this case because he’s saying there is dramatic differences in POI at normal defensive ranges (less than 10 yards) with different ammo. The amount of inherent difference at those ranges is minimal. So yes if someone is saying things that aren’t true I do ask for some proof. I want to see what the fuck he’s talking about. These aren’t rifles at hundreds of yards where a change in grain weight, velocity, or bullet design can throw you off the target completely.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You realize that there are ranges between 10 yards and 300 yards right? Precise handgun accuracy is important for carrying in the woods because visibility can be 50 to 100 yards, unlike your studio apartment. Inb4 hurr durr use a rifle. Next time you go backpacking try carrying a rifle with you everywhere you go and during every activity and see how well that works out for you.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I searched the thread and found nobody talking about poi changes other than him so it's literally just a schizo arguing with his tulpa

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                My point was that your standards are extremely low relative to the mechanical accuracy and potential of the weapon. For me, the pistol is a substitute for a carbine, because the maximum visibility where I live is usually 80-100 yards, with the average being far less, and the terrain is extremely physically challenging to navigate at all, let alone quietly, so it makes sense to ditch longarms entirely and just get more skilled with handguns. Skill does not weigh anything and does not impede mobility. Any moron can hit a guy in the chest at 10-15 yards.

                >You realize that there are ranges between 10 yards and 300 yards right?
                And those are relevant to handgun defensive encounters how? Like I said later even at 40 yards you are talking a few inches which is wider than the group you are shooting at that distance with a handgun (for 99.99% of people). Don't pretend otherwise. The longest law enforcement shooting ever was at 104 yards
                https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/12/08/police-officer-tx-shoots-suspect-104yds-holding-horses-handgun/
                The longest SWAT sniper shot every was less than 200.Their average shot distance is 51 yards. Don't act like shooting past 50 with a handgun is common. Show me any civilian encounters past that. Dicken at the mall the other week is a huge rarity.
                >Precise handgun accuracy is important for carrying in the woods because visibility can be 50 to 100 yards,
                >For me, the pistol is a substitute for a carbine, because the maximum visibility where I live is usually 80-100 yards, with the average being far less
                No it isn't. Full stop. It's not. Even a moderate shooter with a carbine can outshoot Jerry Miculek at 100 yards if he only has a pistol.
                >and the terrain is extremely physically challenging to navigate at all, let alone quietly, so it makes sense to ditch longarms entirely and just get more skilled with handguns
                Well I honestly don't believe you considering dangerous game guides manage just fine with rifles. Regardless, how did this have any bearing on a defensive encounter? Show me all the examples of deep woods gunfights with pistols.
                >My point was that your standards are extremely low relative to the mechanical accuracy and potential of the weapon.
                You don't know what my standards are. I never said anything about what I think is good enough. I only said what is realistic, even unprobable, for an encounter. I don't care how good you are or you think you are, you aren't more mechanically accurate at 100 yards than the pistol is.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >And those are relevant to handgun defensive encounters how?

                Because I can see further than ten yards, which means I could shoot something further than ten yards. It also means other people can see me further than ten yards, which means they can shoot me further than ten yards.

                >Don't act like shooting past 50 with a handgun is common.

                I shoot with a handgun past 50 yards every single day.

                >No it isn't. Full stop. It's not. Even a moderate shooter with a carbine can outshoot Jerry Miculek at 100 yards if he only has a pistol.

                The lightest carbine is twice as heavy as the heaviest pistol and cannot be holstered for full physical mobility. I am able to engage human targets at the maximum possible visibility in my environment. The pistol is superior overall to a carbine for me in my environment.

                >Well I honestly don't believe you considering dangerous game guides manage just fine with rifles.

                That's out west where visibility is high and the terrain is easy to navigate. In the East, visibility is 50 yards on average and the terrain is literally an obstacle course. You need to have both hands free at all times. There is no sling ever invented that will allow you to carry any rifle in this environment gracefully enough to avoid injury and avoid spooking game, it doesn't exist. Hunters here rely exclusively on ambush tactics at stands, they are incapable of opportunistic hunting the way I can.

                >I don't care how good you are or you think you are, you aren't more mechanically accurate at 100 yards than the pistol is.

                Most modern pistols can hit a human target in the vitals consistently at 100 yards. I cannot do that, but I can keep my shots on a human silhouette with 99% consistency at this range. Even an off hit may take out your shoulder or arm, which may take you out of the fight. Moreover, I will see you first and get the first shot because I will be light and agile and you will be heavy and struggling to move through the terrain.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Because I can see further than ten yards, which means I could shoot something further than ten yards.
                So since I see people at hundreds and thousands of yards every day I should bring a .300WM with me everywhere?
                >I shoot with a handgun past 50 yards every single day.
                At people? Based, but you don't. Practice and for fun isn't the same. You are moving off the topic.
                >The lightest carbine is twice as heavy as the heaviest pistol and cannot be holstered for full physical mobility.
                Irrelevant to this discussion. It's about carry ammo. That doesn't make a pistol better.
                >I am able to engage human targets at the maximum possible visibility in my environment. The pistol is superior overall to a carbine for me in my environment.
                Irrelevant again. Being able to engage doesn't mean able to engage as well. Where do you live that you go backpacking but the brush is so thick it's impossible to bring a rifle? You contradict yourself.
                >That's out west where visibility is high and the terrain is easy to navigate
                Yeah man, Alaska is known for it's wide open plains. Same with the rockies and cascades and PNW.
                >In the East, visibility is 50 yards on average and the terrain is literally an obstacle course. You need to have both hands free at all times. There is no sling ever invented that will allow you to carry any rifle in this environment gracefully enough to avoid injury and avoid spooking game, it doesn't exist.
                Sure. Very believable. But you can bring a backpack?
                >Hunters here rely exclusively on ambush tactics at stands, they are incapable of opportunistic hunting the way I can.
                That's a lie. You aren't the badass you think you are.
                >but I can keep my shots on a human silhouette with 99% consistency at this range.
                Never said you couldn't
                >I will see you first and get the first shot because I will be light and agile and you will be heavy and struggling to move through the terrain.
                Sure.

                Post your gun you shoot every day at 50 yards. Here's a random one from me.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >So since I see people at hundreds and thousands of yards every day I should bring a .300WM with me everywhere?

                Yes. If you live in a high-visibility environment you should have long range weaponry and try to keep it as accessible as possible. A perk of living in the east is not having that problem.

                >At people? Based, but you don't.

                So far, no. At animals, yes.

                >Irrelevant to this discussion. It's about carry ammo. That doesn't make a pistol better.

                It does. Shooting a pistol accurately requires consistency, much like archery. If you carry ammo that you don't train regularly with, chances are you will perform poorly at extended ranges. You need to shoot ammo hundreds of times at various ranges to fully grasp it's actual performance.

                >Irrelevant again. Being able to engage doesn't mean able to engage as well. Where do you live that you go backpacking but the brush is so thick it's impossible to bring a rifle? You contradict yourself.

                I live in a place where you need to use a walking stick maneuver efficiently and safely and where you frequently need to use all four limbs to climb. Carrying a rifle here is similar to having a serious injury or disability.

                >Yeah man, Alaska is known for it's wide open plains. Same with the rockies and cascades and PNW.

                Alaska is full of open country. I've seen it in countless hunting shows. It's also largely unsettled. In the East, everything that isn't settled remains wilderness because it was too swampy or rugged to build anything on. Eastern American woodlands are the most physically challenging environment in the entire world, similar to Japan.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Post your gun you shoot every day at 50 yards. Here's a random one from me.
                All I ask.

                >A perk of living in the east is not having that problem.
                moron the east has a much higher population
                >I live in a place where you need to use a walking stick maneuver efficiently and safely and where you frequently need to use all four limbs to climb. Carrying a rifle here is similar to having a serious injury or disability.
                You could have said what state and what area. So you need a walking stick but somehow a rifle is too long to carry?
                >Alaska is full of open country. I've seen it in countless hunting shows. It's also largely unsettled.
                Except for some of the largest untouched forests on Earth.
                >In the East, everything that isn't settled remains wilderness
                Which is most of it
                >because it was too swampy or rugged to build anything on. Eastern American woodlands are the most physically challenging environment in the entire world, similar to Japan.
                Lol

                You are so full of shit.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >All I ask.

                I did. I hit the character limit. Read the second post.

                >moron the east has a much higher population

                And massive amounts of forest to hide in. That is my environment.

                > You could have said what state and what area. So you need a walking stick but somehow a rifle is too long to carry?

                You don't carry a walking stick, it carries you. It distributes the effort of locomotion to the upper body, greatly increasing efficiency of movement, gives you the means to steady yourself on unstable ground, clear obstacles, and to lean on while you carefully place every each footstep so as to make no noise. I have also developed a technique for using a walking stick to stabilize a pistol, increasing my accuracy by 50%.

                > Which is most of it

                New England and New York are mostly forested and have very low population density. Vermont in particular feels virtually uninhabited much of the time.

                >Lol

                You are so full of shit.

                That's literally why manifest destiny started. People moved west because the Northeast is almost uninhabitable. You would need all the dynamite in the world to build one more road. Japan has the same problem, that's why the entire population is crammed into Tokyo. Look at on Google Earth and topographic maps, it's basically like if VT were a whole country.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Sure. Very believable. But you can bring a backpack?

                I wear a small backpack, counterbalanced in front by a smaller front pack. All gear must be perfectly balanced on the skeletal system so that it is carried as efficiently as body fat. The body must have complete freedom of movement. Without natural body mechanics, your chances of encountering game and avoiding detection are almost zero, and your chances of injuring yourself are very high.

                > That's a lie. You aren't the badass you think you are.

                I grew up in a deer hunting family in a deer hunting community. 99% of Eastern hunters rely exclusively on sit-and-wait tactics. Treestands are seen as revolutionary. I have never met another person other than myself who can repeatedly get within range of deer and other game animals via stalking. It is vastly easier out west.

                >Post your gun you shoot every day at 50 yards. Here's a random one from me.

                Mine is similar to picrel, a stock g34 with an RMR and streamlight TLR1O. I also have an exact duplicate. This is the greatest all-purpose weapon ever created in human history. A westerner would understandably feel differently.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I wear a small backpack, counterbalanced in front by a smaller front pack. All gear must be perfectly balanced on the skeletal system so that it is carried as efficiently as body fat. Now I know you're trolling. Good job on keeping me strung along.
                >Mine is similar to picrel
                So not yours. Post yours

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Let me guess shitty 9mm right?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        stop jerking the trigger.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      A hollow point that expands by 50% of its original diameter, which is very moderate expansion and it can be more, has a 125% increase in frontal surface area. Does that make a near miss on an important area into a good hit? Maybe, probably not. But having more than twice the flesh impacted isn’t something to ignore. That’s a significant increase with no real downside except cost.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The best argument that is irrefutably in favor of hollowpoints is overpenetration. Namely, that it doesn't do that as well. The last thing you want to do is have your bullet go through someone and into someone else, or miss and have it go through a wall or something.

    But hey for years hunting has been done with JSP or hollow tips and the mushrooming does indeed help. I think people overestimate how driven most attackers are once you shoot them. Literally the most recent mass shooter fell back and bled out in the bathroom the second he started getting shot, and during the Rittenhouse situation where he was attacked by 3 people simultaneously, all 3 of them pretty much gave up attacking once shot. Even the guy with the glock, who theoretically could have just switched hands, didn't keep coming after him. If you shoot people they seem to be more concerned with not dying than keeping up the offense

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      People keep bringing up the overpenetration thing but that's been proven to be bullshit years ago for two reasons. 1 is that it's a statistically negligible occurrence and nobody can provide data showing that it's a serious concern. This makes sense because criminals usually strike when they think there are no witnesses around, so generally there aren't going to be bystanders in a defensive shooting. 2 is that 9mm FMJ rapidly destabilizes on impact and loses a lot of energy in the human body. When shooting through a thick cross section, it actually does a lot of damage due to tumbling, this is common when shooting through the arm first or shooting from the side. The bullet cannot travel very far or retain energy after exiting the body. It's only a threat to people who are literally standing right behind the intended target.

      I've killed numerous deer and seen numerous deer killed with perfect chest shots from high energy rifles. As a general rule, the deer run until their brains run out of oxygen. This is proof that you can't incapacitate a 200# mammal with energy or bullet design. Only shot place matters. If people don't have a lot of fight in them then that just reinforces that you probably don't need fancy ammo.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        bro. The cops in LA literally shot a suspect 2 times with an AR, the rounds over penning the target, went through a wall, and killed a 13 year old kid.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >AR
          >Dude is discussing 9mm
          Illiterate or retarded?

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >cops
          >as an example of good decisions or competency
          >as an example that has any bearing on a defensive shooting by a citizen
          Cops only hit 10-15% of their shots and tend to be in location when other people are around. And even then it’s incredibly rare to hear they hit someone in the background. I challenge you to find one civilian defensive encounter where overpenetration created a problem

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          > he thinks the cops actually hit the perp and the innocent didnt get hit by stray magdump gunfire per LAPD and NYPD shooting protocol

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >As a general rule, the deer run until their brains run out of oxygen
        not uncommon, but in general it's a result of the poor shot placement, deer shut down instantly if .308 passes close enough to their heart

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Bullshit. I've seen hearts obliterated from .270, 7mm mag, 300 mag etc in deer that ran over 100 yards. Passing the bullet close to the spine is all that works instantly.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I think it's worth mentioning the NYC subway train shooting (Goetz? Getz?) where he shot 4 people on a subway with a .38. I know the likelihood of 9mm fmj hurting people who aren't directly behind a shooter is low, but the fact is that if you are in a similar situation you probably don't want to risk the bullet overpenetrating regardless.

        I don't know what ammo he used other than .38, though back then lead round-nose or sjhp or lead hp were pretty common.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          most people who do mass shootings are gun illiterate so he was probably just using regular FMJ

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Nah he was scared he was being mugged, it wasn't a mass shooting in the sense of "i went onto the subway and started blasting"

            Contrary to popular belief about melanin making people bullet proof, he only had to shoot them each 1 time. Except for the last guy who was already on the ground when Getz allegedly said "you look like you could use another"

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            moron he was attacked by 4 morons with knives and screwdrivers on a subway. He stopped them with a 5 shot j frame and holds the record for the most attackers at one time outside the home. He might be gun illiterate, we don’t know. But he was CC’ing for his safety

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            that was literally a textbook case of self defense retard

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Eh there are people on meth and pvp that quite literally don’t know or feel that theyve been shot. They’ll keep attacking until they just die

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Very true, significantly more dangerous than a PvE fight

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I mean with rittenhouse the first two died almost immediately and the third guy he shot didnt really attack him at all

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >the third guy he shot didnt really attack him at all
        He was about to shoot him with a pistol. Kyle was just quicker. Fuck him and his non-existent bicep.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Yep, fuck the commie, the kid fucker, and the guy who threatened to gut his grandmother and younger brother.
          All three deserved a dirt nap, one got away for now.
          Isn't it interesting how you could shoot any three Antifa at random and manage to hit the worst shitbags on earth?

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The only reason to buy jhp is the increased accuracy by certain brands and the improved qa for most brands. You also have the chance of not overpenetrating and causing collateral damage. There is also no major discernable poi shift between premium jhp and fmj at short range so I'm not sure what these newfag retards are talking about.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The accuracy thing doesn't pan out for me. Only a select few hollow brands are more accurate than FMJ for me. Blazer brass 124 grain is more accurate than anything in the six or 7 9mm Glocks I've owned. Only 147 xtp is more accurate. Lehighs are surprisingly accurate too. Most hollow points can't do better than 2"@25 from a rest.

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    a hollow point's largest positive is that they don't generally over penetrate, or if they do its with such a reduced velocity that they won't seriously injure someone else

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There's plenty of science available about bullet design, and I think it is pretty clear that a well designed defensive ammo outperforms fmj target ammo, but you should practice with what you carry, and carry with what you practice. Nothing could be worse in a real defensive shooting than firing your first shot and being surprised by the result.

    For me it's not an issue because I load my own ammo and can affordably practice with my carry rounds, but for others, if all you shoot is green and white box target ammo, that should be what you carry as well.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You must have some real fucked up hand loads if you are getting a significant poi shift from target ammo.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        even the slightest POI shift matters when you need to dome a terrorist 50 yards away with a 9mm (something us cool special forces operators have to do really often)

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          If you carry in the woods or the mall then you could very well have to shoot someone at 100 yards.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The poi changes, yes, but that isn't what I am talking about. If you are shooting pinker ammo at the range but you carry buffalo bore in spite of never having shot it, you are not going to be ready for the recoil. The gun might even malfunction if you are limp wristing it.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          And you'll go to prison, because buffalo bore CEO explicitly says on his website that his ammo is for KILLING people.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Why would you not carry ammo designed to kill people? Wait, what state do you live in?

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Because the lawyer will say you're a crazy serial killer or some shit.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                you'll also have an lawyer and he'll dismiss all the bullshit irrelevant to the case

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Show me a single case of this ever being successful. I’ll wait. It’s literally just fuddlore

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You're the one saying that carrying buffalo bore will get you prosecuted, so why don't we start there?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No I’m not. That wasn’t me and I’m saying the exact opposite. I’m saying that your choice of carry ammo has had zero bearing on any legal case. Self defense shootings usually don’t go to a trial anyhow

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >but your honor his bullets were EXTRA lethal!
                as opposed to less lethal which would cause undue suffering??

                it literally doesn't happen lmao, maybe if someone was just like knee capping a home intruder after they gave up and the hollow points could be construed as being 'extra destructive'.... but that's not self defense anymore so it doesn't matter

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Harold Fish was convicted for it, got off on appeal - that's closer than anyone should like to be. What if he got a different shitty judge for the appeal?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Harold Fish was fucked over by Arizonas shitty self defense laws of the time placing the burden of proof on the defendant to prove it was self defense, and not the state to prove that it wasn't.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The Fish case had nothing to do with his choice of ammo and had everything to do with him talking poorly with cops initially, and a combo of immoral judge and prosecutor. The judge didn't allow evidence showing a violent history of the attacker. The prosecutor did some shady shit I forget off the top of my head and was reamed by the Arizona bar association later.
                >At trial, the prosecution presented testimony from a forensic expert that the angle of entry of the bullets into Kuenzli’s body showed the wounds were defensive. One of the bullets pierced Kuenzli’s hand and arm before striking his chest, the expert said, indicating he had a hand raised in self-defense, and, therefore, that Fish was not acting in self-defense. Fish’s attorneys had sought to bar the testimony as speculative, but the judge permitted the testimony. On the other hand, the judge barred the defense from presenting the testimony of a defense investigator who had examined the crime scene and the path taken by Kuenzli and would have testified that the evidence showed Kuenzli was aggressively moving toward Fish.

                That's what fucked him. Regardless, it's a stretch to use this case, and it's one case from 20 years ago. Concealed carry is infinitely more popular and common now. Self defense laws in most states are better. I can spin literally any gun or ammo used as "bad". That doesn't mean you should or shouldn't use certain things. They don't matter and there isn't evidence to show that hurts you in court.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          My 92 and 19 put blazer brass fmj, Speer gold dots, and Lehigh xtreme defenders wherever I aim them. There is no discernable poi shift at self defense ranges. Sorry about whatever bull shit You bought.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Your standards are probably like just being able to hit a guy anywhere in the chest at 50'. I kill squirrels at 25 yards.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              So you have to adjust your sights to get hits at 25 yards with different ammo?

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Your standards are probably like just being able to hit a guy anywhere in the chest at 50'
              So well within the average shooting distance. That’s 5 times further than the average distance. Even at 40 yards like in Indiana the movement on a torso sized target is minimal.
              >I kill squirrels at 25 yards.
              Yes I’m sure you’re shooting gold dots at squirrels instead of using a .22 rifle or pistol. Regardless that has zero bearing on hitting a torso

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                My point was that your standards are extremely low relative to the mechanical accuracy and potential of the weapon. For me, the pistol is a substitute for a carbine, because the maximum visibility where I live is usually 80-100 yards, with the average being far less, and the terrain is extremely physically challenging to navigate at all, let alone quietly, so it makes sense to ditch longarms entirely and just get more skilled with handguns. Skill does not weigh anything and does not impede mobility. Any moron can hit a guy in the chest at 10-15 yards.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I'm a big advocate for people learning to shoot their handguns accurately. But you're an autist on a whole other level. If you have to shoot at someone at 100 yards with a handgun, the only reason I can think this will happen is because they have a rifle and they're going to use it on you. You will not have the time to slow down and do your long process of setting up that shot like when you probably do when you're grouping all calm at the range. You will still be shooting rather fast because if you wake a while you will die in your unrealistic and highly unlikely scenario.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Ok

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >getting lectured about poi by some stupid white trash who has probably never chronographed a bullet in his life
            Lol, I said. Lmao.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >needs a chronograph to hit targets at less than 25 yards
              Lmao what

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >hit targets at less than 25 yards
                >"targets"
                What an impressive standard of accuracy

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The op was talking about concealed carry ammo. Do you wanna argue about rifle ammo now?

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Nice strawman

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    FLAT MEPLATS
    SQUARE SHOULDERS
    KEITH HARD CASTS

    Someone post the copy-pasta, it's the best damaging round. Fmj has a tendency to push things like arteries and veins around it.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That's why I wish the 40 didn't suck. It's awesome that ALL of it's ammo is flat nose. I wish 9mm would follow suit.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Federal Syntech 147gr, 147gr training/match, and 150gr action pistol are all soft cast lead flat nose projectiles loaded to the same standard as their HST line. Iirc their 124gr training/match round is also flat nose.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Never seen it.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's good shit. More expensive than 115gr blazer or 115gr steel but well worth the expense in some circumstances.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              What pouch is that? Can it work for 19 magazines?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No anon, it only holds 6 mags.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I've got some flat-nosed 9mm from Underwood.

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You ever hear of a liver shot, OP? Not from a gun, but from a punch. You can knock somebody out by punching them in the liver. It supposedly causes a sudden shift in blood pressure which is enough to knock you unconscious. I don't have any science but I think something similar happens when you get a good shot on a deer because I've seen it happen there too, and not necessarily just on an actual liver shot. I suspect that any shot that sufficiently damages internals might cause enough of a sudden blood pressure change that it could knock an organism out instantly even if it doesn't kill them immediately.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      II do not think that a liver shot is an actual

      [...]

      <<< knockout, it is just that your body automaticaly lies down as a reflexive action to a great bloodpreassure disturbance and you can"t get up for a while. however i could be wrong on this since i have never been properly punched in the liver before but i did have a fiew nasty falls and i could not get up for a fiew seconds after because my body just wouldn"t let me so i assume it was something simmilar

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I don't know for sure either but it seems like a good way to start a gunfight regardless

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous
          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Imagine if he was just pulling out his wallet lmao

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No, there isn't.
    It does seem that the larger permanent cavity, and larger surface area could slightly increase incapacitation likelihood/speed.
    But no one has ever been able to definitively prove it.

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There isn't any such information that actually passes basic levels of scientific scrutiny which is available to the public. The only things close are the marshall & sannow and ellifritz OSS studies, the latter only looks at caliber and the former ones are very likely(imo) fraudulent. Hell, I'm suHispanicious about ellifritz too. Various LEAs/FLEAs no doubt have access to enough information to make some sort of basic evaluation of the question but even then there are simply so many variables in shootings as to make such conclusions tentative at best. You'd pretty much need to combine autopsy reports and footage from recorded OISs along with civilian shootings(PDs don't tend to issue FMJ these days) to get an idea. IMO JHPs are likely a slight improvement but the biggest gains aren't from what people think they are, hole diameter is unlikely to matter very much outside of fringe cases(ex .22 or .17 vs wide expanding .45 JHPs) due to the nature of human anatomy. IMO weight retention and reliable straight line penetration are a bigger deal, although that can be accomplished with FMJ. If you don't hit major arteries it isn't enough bleeding to matter quick enough, if you do then hole size suddenly matters much less than people think it does as arteries are fairly small and high pressure. For instance the highest blood volume moving blood vessel in the human body, the ascending aorta, is typically less than 1.5" wide(and the descending aorta is significantly narrower). Even a .36" through and through is a pretty big fucking deal given the small size of the target and high pressure going on, bigger hole diameter hits diminishing returns very quickly. People mistakenly shoot pork shoulders and bags of fruit and say that the incrementally bigger hole clearly did more "damage" and must be better, shoot a garden hose or rubber tubing(if you're good enough) and then see how big of a difference there is.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Blood loss only matters if you're shooting someone at long range and taking cover or egressing anyway. Not a typical defensive scenario.

  14. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The main reason I use hollow points isn't for damage, it's because I don't want to overpenetrate Trayvon Jr. as I ventilate him for mugging me at the gas pump and hit an innocent person. Any boon to damage is secondary, my main goal is to defend myself without being tried for involuntary manslaughter or something.
    And before it's said, rifle and pistol have different means. I'm carrying a handgun because it's concealable and isn't huge. Any pistol caliber is going to suck in general and I'm just carrying it for self defense because its size is convenient. In an actual combat scenario, hollow points have less use, because you probably do want to overpenetrate and hit a greater number of targets if possible, as well as do more damage to armor plates in case they're wearing some. Not saying it's incredibly likely you'll bag two Russians/glowies/Canadians with one 5.56, but you more than likely don't care about reducing penetration and it's only going to help you if the unlikely does occur.
    In conclusion, the needs of self defense pistol ammunition is going to be different than the needs of wartime rifle ammunition.

  15. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP next poorfag thread
    >Steel vs. Brass, Does it really matter!

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Steel case Russian ammo is extremely reliable, more cost effective even considering the extra wear on the extractor and barrel, and tends to be extremely accurate in handguns (not so much in rifles). Tula 9mm ammo comes off tooling that is based on the Glock chamber, try it in your Glock and you might be surprised how accurate it is. The steel cases are essentially biodegradable. It's also rather hot and gives good velocity. Overall an excellent choice as far as FMJ goes.

  16. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Just pay for the god damn JHP you poorfag. There's a reason every LE agency uses it. Don't make up excuses here and hope people agree with them. If you carry FMJ, just own it and you don't get sued if your bullet overpenetrates.

    Now please enlighten us about how #8 birdshot is ackshually the best HD round and Hi Points are just as good as a real gun.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You are right about everything else. But this
      >If you carry FMJ, just own it and you don't get sued if your bullet overpenetrates.
      Is fuddlore. No one ever gets sued for overpenetration. Many states have legal protections for just that and the instigator is liable. Also there just aren’t cases of overpenetration happening and hitting random bystanders in the first place

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        if you hit an innocent bystander you will absofuckinglutely get sued, doesnt matter what bullets you were using

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Not true. Some states have protections and put the liable on the attacker. Also can you show me any examples of a CCW using hitting an innocent bystander on a passthrough?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Hi-Points are real guns. They kill dumb morons like you every day.

  17. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I keep these in my HD mags.

    The operating principle is that upon impact, the plastic cone gets pushed in and mushrooms out the bullet to maximize trauma and minimize overpenetration. I found surprisingly little info on the best 5mm bullet for home defense. Seems like most people just use 55 gr FMJ or whatever. I really don't know what I should be using in my AR but I figure I could do worse.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >I found surprisingly little info on the best 5mm bullet for home defense
      Then you didn’t bother looking very hard. There is a plethora of information out there and most come to the conclusion that either a heavy 75/77gr OTM or a 50gr Barnes TSX is the best choice. That said I love the vmax (they destroy prairie dogs). If you want to minimize overpenetration and that’s your priority I would highly suggest you get the 60gr vmax. I know 7 grains doesn’t seem like much but they penetrate a little more and hold together just a little better which is good in case you don’t have a full frontal shot. Years ago I found a couple stories from PDs that used the 60gr vmax specially to limit overpenetration and from the 5ish shootings with it they all worked great. Getting hit with a rifle sucks

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Speer makes .223 that's used by LEOs all over the country and I have a few boxes that I trust and use in my HD pistol for my 10.5. 55gr will get the job done just as well but after doing research on what you have a year or so ago, they didn't do what I was looking for. Coyotes, great! Humans, not so much.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Eh it's not the worst choice. Anyone getting hit in the center mass with a 53 grain 3000+fps V-Max is going to have a bad day.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >he uses a .22 for home defense

  18. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    There was nobody bringing it up as a reason why you should or should not use hp ammunition, that was you volunteering it. I still am not sure what your point is in relationship to the topic other than that you dont have to practice with your carry ammo, which is a stupid point that nobody would ever make, so I must be wrong. People were just responding to your absolutely retarded claim that different ammo brands don't change poi significantly. You apparently have an axe to grind on this topic which is unfortunate because you are very wrong.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >There was nobody bringing it up as a reason why you should or should not use hp ammunition
      Literally the first person I linked to said you shoot high and left, indicating that FMJ and carry HP ammo have a different POI. You can't read, are really stupid, or are lying to try and save face.
      >People were just responding to your absolutely retarded claim that different ammo brands don't change poi significantly.
      More people agree with me than you. And for the third time, within normal self defense distances (i.e. less than 10 yards) it absolutely doesn't change it significantly. Prove that it does. Show I'm wrong and make me look stupid.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Ten yards is nothing. I shoot at 100 yards every day. You have absolutely no conception of proficient pistol shooting if you only train at ten yards.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >There was nobody bringing it up as a reason why you should or should not use hp ammunition
          >Shows example of someone bringing it up
          >noooooo not that one
          Fuck off. Like I said right below, post your gun you shoot every day at 100 yards. An hour ago it was only 50 yards. So which is it deadeye?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I carry a Glock 34. That and a Browning Buckmark are the only guns I shoot regularly.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >All I ask.

              I did. I hit the character limit. Read the second post.

              >moron the east has a much higher population

              And massive amounts of forest to hide in. That is my environment.

              > You could have said what state and what area. So you need a walking stick but somehow a rifle is too long to carry?

              You don't carry a walking stick, it carries you. It distributes the effort of locomotion to the upper body, greatly increasing efficiency of movement, gives you the means to steady yourself on unstable ground, clear obstacles, and to lean on while you carefully place every each footstep so as to make no noise. I have also developed a technique for using a walking stick to stabilize a pistol, increasing my accuracy by 50%.

              > Which is most of it

              New England and New York are mostly forested and have very low population density. Vermont in particular feels virtually uninhabited much of the time.

              >Lol

              You are so full of shit.

              That's literally why manifest destiny started. People moved west because the Northeast is almost uninhabitable. You would need all the dynamite in the world to build one more road. Japan has the same problem, that's why the entire population is crammed into Tokyo. Look at on Google Earth and topographic maps, it's basically like if VT were a whole country.

              Post guns. I did. It's your turn. Stock photos don't count.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I don't post personal pictures. You are free to Google what a G34 looks like.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Every time. And I mean, EVERY SINGLE TIME

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                So... you really upload photos you took with your own phone... to PrepHole?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yes because that's a fucking dumb rationale. You don't own guns.

                And yet in reality I only rarely shoot groups with HP as well as FMJ.

                Now this I believe. I do believe you rarely shoots groups

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I have never uploaded a personal photo of any kind whatsoever to the internet in my entire life and I'm not starting tonight.
                Sleep well.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Enjoy not owning firearms

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I have never uploaded a personal photo of any kind whatsoever to the internet in my entire life and I'm not starting tonight.
                Sleep well.

                This is the dumbest reply chain I've seen in a while. If he did post pictures, you still probably wouldn't believe him. And for someone that refuses to post any pictures on the Internet, you seem awfully obsessed with getting this guy's approval. My bet is that the one who posted pictures is a teenager with his dad's guns and the other is a 23 y/o wagie who pretends to own guns but in reality is on food stamps and can't afford them. You'll never convince me otherwise.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Da fuck u sed bout food stamps little boy raping honkey?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                So... you really upload photos you took with your own phone... to PrepHole?

                Cuz u a pussy ass sheltered ass dog fuckin cracka, not him im different person

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                https://i.imgur.com/KrMv7kl.jpg

                Da fuck u sed bout food stamps little boy raping honkey?

                based porchmonkey loadouts

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                U a no gun owning ass cousin fuckin ass cracka, stop gettin raped by yo daddy.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                your move, moon man

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Ill wet yo ass n sell dat shit back in da hood so somebody else can use it to wet somebody else cracka. N den deyll sell it to someone else or throw it away. U nun but a victim

  19. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I only shoot gopher but you can sure as fuck tell the difference between hollowpoint, and FMJ.
    Shot em with FMJ nugget, and it goes right through, leaving a hole only 7.62mm wide, and the gopher lives for a while. A hollowpoint .22, and they get ripped open, and at worst die within a minute.

  20. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Look at any ballistics video ever
    >FMJ cuts through people like a knife through butter
    >Hollow point literally causes a mini nuclear detonation inside of your enemies
    lol ok

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Science isn't real

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      But then you look at the actual wound and it's just a slightly bigger hole. And then you look up terminal performance and you find countless verified reports of drugged up felons soaking up magazines of hollow points in every caliber and staying on their feet.

      My solution is not to increase terminal performance. My solution is to increase accuracy. I think that's more effective. Many years ago I developed a technique for concealing competition sized guns with long barrels and full size red dot sights that I can make fist sized groups with at 40 yards. That is every bit as revolutionary as expanding bullets.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        What is this technique!!??!!

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I suspect that it involves a substantial amount of lubrication.

  21. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Due to extensive research done by the University of Pittsburgh, hollowpoints has been confirmed as the deadliest bullet known to man. The research is as follows:

    Pocket-protected scientists built a wall made of iron and shot a hollowpoint bullet into it at 1,400 feet per second, and the wall was blown up. They then built a wall out of hollowpoints and shot a bullet made of pure copper moving at 1,400 feet per second into the wall, and the wall came out fine. They then shot a hollowpoint made gun made of 3,000 feet per second into the wall, and there were no survivors. They shot 1,400 feet per second into a hollowpoint travelling at full copper jacketed bullet. Western New York was powerless for hours. They rammed a wall made of metal into 1,400 feet per second made of hollowpoint, and the resulting explosion shifted earths orbit 400 million miles away from the sun, saving the earth from a meteor the size of a small Washington suburb that was hurtling towards mid-western Prussia at 400 billion miles an hour. They shot a hollowpoint made of iron at a car moving at 1,400 walls per hour, and as a result caused over 10000 wayward planes to lose track of their bearings, and make a fatal crash with over 10000 buildings in downtown New York. They spun 400 miles at hollowpoints into iron per wall. The results were inconclusive. Finally, they placed 1,400 hollowpoints per hour in front of a car made of wall travelling at miles per iron, and the result proved with out a doubt that hollowpoints were the deadliest bullet of all time, if not just the deadliest bullets known to man.

  22. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Less chance to overpenetrate with enough energy to kill or severely injure little Timmy behind the Opponet, even when hitting thinner parts of the body
    ( OF course :overpenetration into someones eye will obviously cause a severe injury at least ,hell even an airsoft bb can blind someone which would PROBABLY fall under the severe injury classification). bigger hole= Faster bleedout, bigger hole also means slightly bigger chance to hit something important like a nerve, spinal cord, heart, aorta , carotid ecc,. the secondary cavity is bigger when using hollowpoints, increasing the chance of disturbing something important.-example : a livershot would probably cause a reflexive drop (similar to a liverpunch in boxing). A hollowpoint basicaly buys you better margins of error in terms of shot placement. When using a pistol, any advantage is very welcome. The faster you disable your opponet, the less oportunities he has of hurting you.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >The faster you disable your opponet, the less oportunities he has of hurting you.

      Then shoot him in the head with ammo that you've shot 10,000 times.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You can shoot him in the head with your carry ammo also. You haven’t shot your pistol 10,000 times anyhow

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I can make 2" groups or better at 25 yards with my carry pistol centered precisely where I am aiming on command. You will never ever get there with hollow points.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Do you think that hollow points are inherently less accurate? What are you trying to say?

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              In my case, yes. I have 4 Glock 9mms and they all shoot FMJ more accurately than most hollow point ammo with a few exceptions, most notably Hornady 147 grain XTP, which can do under 1"@25 yards.

              But more importantly, hollow points are too expensive for me to buy in bulk, I'm always buying little 20 round boxes of them. Every brand has it's own unique POI and trajectory. When that 20 round box is gone because I rotated through it, I cannot find anymore because it's not in stock. I have to buy something else and refamiliarize myself with the idiosyncratic performance of that ammunition. Or it is in stock but the performance has changed slightly because it's a different batch and lot number. This system offers no consistency and is too complicated. There are inexpensive hollow points that I could feasibly buy in bulk at great cost, but these offer marginal penetration, which is worrisome given the number of moose and bears I encounter on a regular basis. It's much simpler to just carry FMJ and shoot more accurately. I'm going to train regularly anyway because I enjoy shooting and value shooting skill, so why not rely on this instead of expensive ammo? Is that not just as viable a strategy?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I have 4 Glock 9mms and they all shoot FMJ more accurately than most hollow point ammo with a few exceptions,
                Unless you reload FMJ, no they won't. The quality control and standard deviation on defensive ammo is much better than bulk FMJ.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                And yet in reality I only rarely shoot groups with HP as well as FMJ.

  23. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP is a slackjawed fucking retard trying everything he possibly can to justify this even being a thread holy fuck. Just use hollow points for shooting less than 50 yards and use FMJs for farther holy FUCK. Yea OP, we are so proud of you for being able to shoot a pistol at a billion yards while simultaneously being such a weak pussy gay that packing an additional 10 pounds (standard carbine plus ammo) is just unacceptable for you.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      10# is an absolutely insane amount of weight. That's more than my entire survival loadout. You must not go outside very much.

  24. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Unless it's a cns hit, there's never a guarantee that the fight will be ended with any bullet and any number of shots. HPs prevent over penetration and ensure that you get all of your energy on target, which is as much as you can hope for.

  25. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They do produce larger wound tracts and negate the possibilities of over penetration. Ultimately shot placement is king with jhp and fmj. I run jhp to reduce the possibility of over penetration . Shooting the scumbag threatening your life and/or stealing your property is the easy part, it’s the potential legal bs that follows the shooting that you need prepare for, especially if your bullet goes through the assailant and hits and innocent bystander

  26. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What you really ought to do is maximize penetration to make sure you kill through their cover and body armor. Two holes will bleed twice as much as one and there's no stopping the bullet from going deep enough to guarantee vital organs are perforated.

  27. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Shot placement is king shot size is queen and nothing else matters. Hollowpoints are better because in basically every single use case scenario outside of a few distinct cases you will never be dealing with armor and it makes the wound cavity bigger. A bigger wound cavity is a larger surface area to hit something vital and imparts more energy into the target. Using FMJ is a pretty stupid idea in practically any self defense situation as it is inferior in every practical way to hollowpoint in all of the areas where self defense rounds matter. The ONLY way FMJ comes out on top is in penetration which is a non issue in almost every scenario. Either a hollowpoint would penetrate anyway or you shoudnt take the shot to begin with.

  28. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What's the consensus on the effectiveness of hollow points in smaller calibers like 9x18 makarov? What about 9x18 in general.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      There isnt enough difference from normal 9mm or 45 or whatever for it to mean anything. It will only matter in very small rounds like .22 or .25 which might have such poor penetration even with FMJ where it could matter depending on how much clothes they have or if their arm is in the way or what have you.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Noticed i worded it a bit vague. Hollowpoints are better. The no difference is in reference to 9x18 isnt different from other cartridges and how hollowpoints are better for them.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >It will only matter in very small rounds like .22 or .25
        A fudd told me a story once about how he repeatedly shot a rabbit with FMJ 22lr rounds, finding it in the bushes several minutes later still alive and slowly bleeding to death, put a round in his dome to put him out of his misery.
        I know it's just fuddlore but I'd trust any decent manufacturer like CCI to penetrate, and beyond that I think hollow points are *moron* necessary.

  29. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Here Anon, my contribution to the vast gulf that is your ignorance.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting

  30. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    https://sys.PrepHole.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnebula.wsimg.com%2Fd0ba783a795f1cef262aa1027d14a092%3FAccessKeyId%3D6BF38C5AD5E3222E4D9B%26amp%3Bdisposition%3D0%26amp%3Balloworigin%3D1

    Screwdriver master race

  31. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous
    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of these that they penetrate like FMJ but still damage a wide area of tissue like hollow points? If so, shouldn't you avoid using them for self defense against humans for the same reasons you avoid using FMJ for self defense against humans?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous
  32. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The biggest benefit that Hollowpoints offer is that the body will capture it. I use cast lead bullets with a wide meplat for hunting and it would pass-through longwise any animal I hit.
    Don't want to use non-deforming bullets to avoid collateral.

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