Is there a round that:
>performs well out of a 16"barrel
>is stronger than 5.56 but softer shooting than .308
>still performs well at 500yrds
Is there a round that:. >performs well out of a 16"barrel. >is stronger than 5.56 but softer shooting than .308
Everything I read seems to push me towards 6.5 Creedmoor, but I was wondering if there were other contenders. I want to build a nice handy little carbine. In the meantime, I'll post rare and wild gun pics I've found
Creedmore definitely ticks three of your four boxes, only one I'm not sure about is velocity from a 16" barrel. Probably your best bet though, I've go a 20" AR-10 in 6.5 CM and I love it.
If I were to get a higher twist rate barrel would it improve performance from 16"?
6.5 is a meme
I hear .260 Remington is pretty good, possibly even better than 6.5mm Creedmoor, but Remington is run by fools who've failed to market it as well despite it being introduced sooner.
Grendel
Is Grendel more accurate than Creedmoor out of a shorter barrel?
accuracy isn't dependent on caliber like that
Well, just general performance. I know Creedmoor has trouble with shorter barrels because you lose so much velocity, and past 200yrds not very effective.
There's no world where Creedmoor won't be effective past 200yds. It'll work, but you're absolutely right that it's optimized for longer barrels and gains a lot from 20"+. Grendel will offer similar performance out of a 16" barrel and fit in a 7.62x39 magazine to boot, however the tradeoff is it works better with 120gr or lighter bullets whereas Creedmoor can push 175 grain bullets. I'd definitely recommend Grendel for your requirements.
The only common caliber that's not going to lose enough velocity to affect performance out of a 16" or lower barrel is 7.62x39. 5.56 and .308 should be at least 18" length. However .308 isn't dependent on fragmentation as a wounding mechanism so cutting the length doesn't matter as much. 5.56 HAS to reach a certain velocity or it will icepick and you basically just shot the dude with a .22
Stick to common calibers or you'll regret your decision later when ammo is super expensive and you can't find it anywhere.
.308
5.56/.223
7.62x39
& the list is sadly shrinking as more things get banned and less attainable thanks to Democraps.
Neither are meant for shorter barrels. But CM is essentially the same recoil as .308, so I don't think it falls "in between 5.56 and .308."
local pawn shop has a 6.5 grendel complete upper in 12-14ish inches, i didnt measure but its clearly not 16 or 20. Does that defeat the purpose or should i cop for fun?
I'm pretty sure it is g2g out of anything like 12 or better.
My lil bro's 12.whatever" is pretty accurate at range
barrel length does not alter group size. it changes velocity.
it does alter the grp size when wind is involved
wind alters group size when wind is involved. shorter barrels can actually be better for accuracy because they have superior harmonics but that's going into benchrest territory.
if you took a short barrel with normal ammo and a long barrel with ammo underloaded to mach the short barrel's velocity, they would perform identically.
the barrel is a pressure vessel. if all you do to it is alter the length, nothing but the pressure curve changes. the bullet is pushed more. it's a tube.
if we are talking strictly the length measurement, and absolutely nothing else, there is no intrinsic feature to that statistic which alters group size.
>wind alters group size when wind is involved
yes but to varying degrees, velocitry decreses the group size across a range of variables when wind is volved. Also balanced and lightweight long barrels exist.
300 memeout supers?
Pic unrelated. It’s a 220gr sub
7.62x39, adjust the sights for shots past 300m, that's why all 7.62x39 guns come with those adjustable sights. Alternatively throw an LPVO on it with bullet drop dots.
You can also go lower than a 16" barrel with that, 12" (AK104 length) ones are super nifty. CSA VZ58s come in a pistol version at that length and are more accurate than AKs. SKSs still exist too.
.308 isn't bad out of a 16", lots of them come standard in that length. AR10s obviously can come in any length, PTR91s have 16" versions, .308 AKs if you can find them. .308 definitely doesn't have much drop. 5.56 out of a 16" isn't going to penetrate adequately past 300 yards. There are A LOT of fags who are deeply invested in this round so ignore any rebuttals and look up that information yourself. There's a reason the military dropped it, specifically citing poor performance at range.
.300blk drops more than 7.62x39 at range. Look at the two bullets next to each other, .300blk is a fatter bullet with less powder behind it, meaning drop city. It's meant to be a naturally subsonic round good for suppression, it's not a good all around round. Completely pointless when subsonic 7.62x39 exists imo.
6.5 mememore is more expensive and less common than .308. There are far less rifles chambered in it and you're going to spend so much more just to get basically the same performance as .308, which you can buy heaps of surplus ammo in.
.308 is just a very bad fit for a light lil carbine. I'm not really fussed on cost per round, I just want to build my rifle and handload for it.
>light lil carbine
Ruger SFAR or any .308 bullpup.
>or any .308 bullpup.
Bullpup don't actually weigh less, even tho they're so short. t. MDRx owner.
>tuck the barrel in so the receiver is twice as long
Nice
>.308 is just a very bad fit for a light lil carbine.
Just use the 110 grain varmit bullets and suddenly your 308 weighs a lot less, has same velocity as .223, but twice the muzzle energy.
i love that lower, i always forget the name, didnt think it would work with other rounds than 556
Dead round in the US, almost costs as much as blacked and will only get pricier
Did Wolf move countries again? Golden Tiger already has. They can't stop Russian ammo coming in, never have been able to unless they're going to inspect the "factories" just outside of Russia. They just ship it to a relay and it gets imported from there. Tela Ammo is Golden Tiger but shh.
nta, but I guess you missed the part where putin banned the export of ammo last month
What a bunch of retarded bullshit. You are suggesting shooting 7.62x39 past 500 yards and then say that 5.56 doesn't have enough power past 300 yards.
7.62x39 is an even further step backwards when it comes to long range.
Stop coping and just use a fucking rifle caliber. Maybe if you gays drank some more milk growing up you wouldn't have an issue.
7.62x39 is the urban warfare caliber, perfected round for urban combat.
5.56/5.45 are the conventional warfare caliber, you can carry so much more ammo.
308 for everything else
5.56 out of a 16" barrel isn't penetrating a car windshield or fragmenting past 300y. With a 20" barrel it will out to around 400y. Its effectiveness is highly dependent on velocity and ammo type. It's a finicky bullshit round, but under ideal circumstances when it works properly it makes some nasty wounds.
Think of a long range 7.62x39 shot as lobbing the bullet onto the target. It arcs but you have to consider it's only 12mm case length less than a 7.62x51, that's not a ton of powder loss. It retains a decent amount of power at range.
Intermediate caliber wars are indeed gay, they're all compromises. Just get a fucking .308 and shut up. Nobody disagrees that it's a good round, they just complain about "not being able to carry as much" as if they really even have a way of carrying 10+ mags.
>5.56 can't go through windshields at 300yds
Yes it can
>it can't go past 400yds
Yes it can
>bu-bu-but 7.62 can totall-
Stop talking
>5.56 @300yds
>Aprx 2200 fps with a 55gr or 77gr projectile
Pretty sure that's gonna pen a windshield tbh senpai
>300 blk has a fatter bullet than 7.62x39!!
>7.62x35 vs 7.62x39
Anon, I....
thats length, but 7.62x39 is fatter being .311 vs .308 for .300 memeout
I thought you were gonna bring up something like ogives but you're worried about 3 fucking thousandths of an inch?
>6.5 mememore is more expensive and less common than .308. There are far less rifles chambered in it and you're going to spend so much more just to get basically the same performance as .308, which you can buy heaps of surplus ammo in.
Price wasn't a factor in OP's criteria. You only bring up price because based on performance (all that matters to OP) 6.5 is Creedmoor is the answer, and you're still in denial that it's better than everything you have
objectively false, he could have chosen 7mm-08 if price was not an object
Okay, here's the only criteria OP laid out, notice how price is not listed:
>Is there a round that:
>performs well out of a 16"barrel
>is stronger than 5.56 but softer shooting than .308
>still performs well at 500yrds
Do yourself a favor and learn what objectively means
Also, obvious same fag and
yes, so he should choose 7mm-08 because it's better than 6.5 creedmore
also wow you figured out that two consecutive replies to different posts in the same thread are from the same person, you must feel smart
7.62x39 is fatter than .300 BO retard
similar weight .308 bullets have a better ballistic coefficient than .311 bullets, so .300 nigout retains energy better than 7.62 commie.
at 300 yards, 123 grain nigout has 17 inches of drop compared to 32 inches for 123 grain 7.62, and they carry the same energy at 400
>6.5 Grendel, 6 Arc
Former will overtake .308 on energy retention at further precision shooting sort of distances.
>drops more than 7.62x39 at range
If it's using the intended 1:5 twist rate, the additional terminal effect from that supposedly bridges that gap.
Is the bullet really that fat? I wish suppressors were easier to get I'd hand load .300 subs and plink at 300 yards with a booty silently
6.5 Grendel. I shot a 5" group at 600 yards with a Grendel AR-15 the first time I shot it.
second. I trust grendel out to 600y to reliably put down large whitetail. that's around the point the standard hunting load (123g sst) drops below 1k foot lbs out of an 18 inch barrel.
for reference, in the same barrel length, m193 drops below 1k foot lbs at like 100y, M80 Drops below 1k foot lbs at like 900y or something like that
m855a1
6.8 Rem SPC. Of course Remington, being owned by Freedom Group at the time, did a worse marketing rollout than .30super carry or .224Valkyrie.
It was made for 16" the same way 5.56 was made for 20." Fits in AR-15 mags, 85 grains at 3000fps, or 115gr at 2575fps.
Yeah its out there and $1/round isnt terrible for boutique ammo, but its still probably a doomed cartridge.
6.8SPC, however out to 500 yards depends on bullet choice, but will have some drop to it. It went from being a contender for limited military use to becoming a hog and medium-sized deer hunting cartridge.
The SPC vs SPC II situation didnt do it any favors
That LWRC Made a receiver spec for it, and Magpul makes 30rd pmags for it, makes me wish that the companies rolling out new cartridges would abandon the grendel/x39 case head and instead just use the 6.8 case head. It’s only a bit smaller, but can be loaded to higher pressures for the same bolt thrust, and with stronger bolts. I’d be all over a 6mm ARC based on the 6.8 case. Plus, The SPC vs SPCii problem would be immaterial here with a new cartridge. The 6.8 caliber was suboptimal for the powder charge too. Bullet too fat, ogive too short. Low BC @ high velocity, or high BC @ low velocity.. pick one.. Mightaswell start over with skinnier bullets.
.400 Legend is the SPC bolt face.
It is, but the rim is slightly rebated. The case head is still grendel.
>The 6.8 caliber was suboptimal for the powder charge, too... Might as well start over with skinnier bullets.
you just described .224 Valkyrie. But nobody wanted to make barrels with 1:5 twists or something retarded like that to take advantage of the 100+ grain bullets.
Maybe a 6mm SPC?
Performance from a Short barrel, relative to the cartridge’s max potential, is generally gonna be the inverse of performance at range. You’ll have to a sacrifice either SD (BC) or velocity, as short barrel efficiency is a function of overbore ratio. I imagine the recoil would be typically be greater as well (on paper, atleast, not necessarily perceptible), cause if you increase bore diameter to get short barrel efficiency you’re likely also increasing bullet mass.
The limit of what you’re looking for would be the CETME/FABRL species of cartridges. Low SD, excellent form factor, small powder charge required to push the bullet to very fast velocities. The bullets are usually very light, so low recoiling as well.
But in real life, the best compromise cartridges are I think 6.8 SPC or 6.5 grendel. 6.5 grendel really is outstanding in what it can accomplish vis a vis trajectory and energy retention given its not very stellar overbore ratio. 6.8 would work better in shorter barrels though. I think LWRC even sells rifles/PDWs with barrels as short as 8”.
Edit: idk why I originally read your post as asking for something that “performs well from short barrels” (vs 16”). Still, 6.5 grendel would be my recommendation. It’s just what you’re looking for,
Maybe FN’s new round the .264 LICC or whatever it’s called.. it’s like an overpressure grendel.
6.5 Grendel, 6.8 spc, 6mm arc for intermediate rounds
277 fury for full size rifles maybe 6.5 creedmore, but it’s really meant for at least 18in barrel and it burns through barrels really fast
7mm-08
7mm-08 with
Yes there's a shit ton.
My new favorite is supersonic 8.6 blk out of a 14-16 in barrel. Very impressive stuff.
8.6 blk does intrigue me. But I worry about drop with it past 400yrds. It's still very new, so maybe with time it will be more clear on what I can expect from it
I hear you drop is a real issue when you're sighting a general purpose type round, there might be some cool optic solutions to come though for 8.6 specifically which lessen or remove the effects, something to watch out for.
I mean technically the solution is already here with that military scope vortex made all you would have to do is change some numbers in the settings to account for the 8.6 projectile arc instead of the .277's but sadly it's still unobtanium.
Do you actually shoot anything beyond 400yds? Not trolling, it's a genuine question. A lot of people pick a caliber/rifle based on its maximum performance without having the self awareness to realize that they themselves will never need that maximum performance. Sidenote: drop is constant. Even if it's severe after a certain distance, you can still account for it.
Rarely, but I want something that can perform at 500yrds regardless. Anything beyond that isn't what I would ask from a lil carbine.
>Rarely
>but i need it because
>because
>because what if the boogaloo hero fantasy i've constructed in my head really happens
clown. get real
Bruh, I have no illusions about that gay larping shit. But I want to be able to reliablly hit steel at 500 yards with this thing. The fuck you have against that? Are you a fag that only owns a glock and an AR?
1911, 10/22, 12g over/under, and a Mosin. Wouldn't be caught dead with a Glock and would only get an AR if I lived somewhere I could hunt a LOT of coyotes and hogs
That's pretty sad ngl. And you thought you had some authority to comment on my preferences for a lil carbine?
>posts stock pic of somebody else's gun
okay retard. me and that mosin have been slaying whitetail deer out to 300yds for half a decade now. if you want a little carbine because
>oi vey my arms get tired carrying a full sized rifle
then you're afraid of guns and afraid of the gym. get good or get out
>me, looking at my 3 safes and $35k worth of guns containing several instances of each gun you're so proud of
Uh huh.
Post safes
Holy wow
Are you 50+ years old
25
okay loser, go suck off your grandad
>didn't say that bullet has to land accurately
Sabotted 224 bullet out of a straight walled/barelly necked casing.
6mm arc
6mm Arc
6mm ARC. designed by and for the military. already has contracts, already stacking bodies.
take your pick of duty rifles. geissele, barrett, noveske, wilson combat.
what grendel wishes it was.
>500 yards
And up to 1,000 yards
The .308 AP rounds pierce armor well
The 5.56 is being replaced with the 6.8
The 7.62x51 / 308 is still a stronger round
Another 7.62x51 / .308 AR with a basic thermal optic for night hunting.
Both cartridges can be chambered in the same rifle and are very abundant.
Burst fire and full auto can be configured with a legal sear or rapid fire trigger.
However, at long ranges, a single fire semi-automatic action is ideal for aiming.
6.5CM and 6PRC are about as "middle-ground" as you can get here, both also have short comings there is no "do it all" bullet it's aways dependant on seeral thing however I propose these two becaouse of less wind draft and softer recoil than .308 still almost doubles .223 do with that what you will
I am a fan of having a 7.62x39 rifle and a .308 rifle. Just have to know what kind of engagement you have ahead of you before you leave. When in doubt bring the .308.
>what kind of engagement you have ahead of you
larp
Little do you know you're dealing with a terrorist so dangerous that international media has black outed all references to him as not to inspire others.
6.5 Grendel.
7.62x39
6mm ARC
6.5 Grendal
6.8 SPC 2
I'm sure there are others, but these three are gtg.
6.5 or 6mm I'd go grendel
243 winchester (or 6mm creedmoor, but fuck that! 243 is classic!) is best boi.
Light bullets pop armor
heavy bullets go the distance
All with less recoil than 308
Mk262
Tell me you're a fag without telling me you're a fag
>performs well out of a 16"barrel
>is stronger than 5.56 but softer shooting than .308
>still performs well at 500yrds
these are retarded requirements
6mm arc.
Unironically what we should have went with.
>better recoil
>better ballistics
>not as expensive as 277 fury or other meme rounds from a manufacturing standpoint
>fast as fuck