Is chapter 12 of Sun Tzu's art of war still applicable in the modern period? Is fire attack used outside of China?

Is chapter 12 of Sun Tzu's art of war still applicable in the modern period?
Is fire attack used outside of China?
I only know of XiaoTing and ChiBi. Both of which fire was used to destroy the larger force.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Sun Tzu's art of war
    >attack when win
    >don't attack when lose
    Is it really that easy to write a book?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Sun Tzu was writing for coddled nobles.
      For a modern equivalent imagine a trust fund kid who has never had to tie his own shoe laces. LITERALLY. NOT FIGURATIVELY.
      And their entire education is composed of learning elaborate cursive and reading hegel for twenty years and how to pour craft beer just right. That's it.
      Now are you going to dump high level strategy and tactics on these kids? Frick no. They aren't going to understand shit.
      You teach them the VERY very basics of warfare and logistics by using hegelian terminology because anything else will go over their head entirely.
      The reason the book is so hyped is because its target audience of rich morons who know nothing keep reading it throughout centuries and praising its insight of not being a complete fricking moron.
      It's recent boost has also been because it was read by japanese and chinese morons and they pretended it is so deep and insightful it can be used for business also, not just warfare.
      t. knower

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Also he was writing for these coddled nobles because military was directed in significant part by aristocracy
        Nobody could upend the existing horrible system, so people like Sun Tzu who weren't moronic had to try to patch up the absolute worst gaps in it

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Why do NATO officers read it then?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Because 80% of any officer corps formed during peace time is moronic.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Id argue every single officer who doesn't have years of experience is moronic and doesn't know the basics. Sun Tzu's stuff is insightful because not everyone knows about the importance of logistics and shit. You boast about how its "common sense" yet I can easily see a thousand generals today fricking up the most basic shit like attacking where the enemy is the weakest and you the strongest or neglecting logistics.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          A martial artists basic training is never over

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >coddled nobles
        Like how it was written? because it's to similar to "12 rules antidote to chaos" or "The 48 laws of power"?
        Come on, the Art of War are books from the bronze age, written on sticks

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        If shit was so basic then why did Robert E Lee Order Pickett to charge up that hill instead of just ignoring Union positions? Why did the Wehrmacht bother with Stalingrad? Why did Romans let Cannae happen? Why did America bother with Afghanistan? Why did Russia sit and wait 8 years to allow Ukraine to gather strength before attacking them again?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
      >3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.
      >4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.
      It's simple, yet militaries still make the same basic mistakes, look at Vietnam, Afghanistan and now Ukraine

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >win instead of losing or you will lose
        damn chinksects really are the titans of the 21st century

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Sun Tzu was writing for coddled nobles.
      For a modern equivalent imagine a trust fund kid who has never had to tie his own shoe laces. LITERALLY. NOT FIGURATIVELY.
      And their entire education is composed of learning elaborate cursive and reading hegel for twenty years and how to pour craft beer just right. That's it.
      Now are you going to dump high level strategy and tactics on these kids? Frick no. They aren't going to understand shit.
      You teach them the VERY very basics of warfare and logistics by using hegelian terminology because anything else will go over their head entirely.
      The reason the book is so hyped is because its target audience of rich morons who know nothing keep reading it throughout centuries and praising its insight of not being a complete fricking moron.
      It's recent boost has also been because it was read by japanese and chinese morons and they pretended it is so deep and insightful it can be used for business also, not just warfare.
      t. knower

      Reminder to everyone that says that the art of war is super basic and useless. It is basic, but we are living through an example of what happens when you don’t respect the basics.

      I’m reminded especially of his words on not picking auspicious dates to start battles rather than good weather, of the benefits of attacking where your enemy is weakest rather than where they have been fortifying for a decade, of the dangers of letting politicians or kings interfere with war, of the importance of having good intelligence, and the part where he loaded 2 of every animal on a boat just to beat them up. I still don’t understand the last part

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        He did it so that us in the future call any bunch of animals in one place a ‘Tsu’, unless it’s a farm.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Sun Tzu was writing for coddled nobles.
      For a modern equivalent imagine a trust fund kid who has never had to tie his own shoe laces. LITERALLY. NOT FIGURATIVELY.
      And their entire education is composed of learning elaborate cursive and reading hegel for twenty years and how to pour craft beer just right. That's it.
      Now are you going to dump high level strategy and tactics on these kids? Frick no. They aren't going to understand shit.
      You teach them the VERY very basics of warfare and logistics by using hegelian terminology because anything else will go over their head entirely.
      The reason the book is so hyped is because its target audience of rich morons who know nothing keep reading it throughout centuries and praising its insight of not being a complete fricking moron.
      It's recent boost has also been because it was read by japanese and chinese morons and they pretended it is so deep and insightful it can be used for business also, not just warfare.
      t. knower

      The way i see it, the point of the art of war was to serve as the starting point for the development of a philosophy of war rather than being the total sum of it. Problem is, Chinks don't do dialogue very well, so they just took the thing as the be-all end-all definitive textbook and declared everything in it as indisputable law.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Problem is, Chinks don't do dialogue very well, so they just took the thing as the be-all end-all definitive textbook and declared everything in it as indisputable law.
        Source on this?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          my vague recollections of snippets and anecdotes on Chinese military history (a subject of which i know almost nothing about). iirc, there were quite a few incidents where chinese (and other countries within their sphere of cultural influence) generals took the part where Sun Tzu says to cut-off any possible retreat for your own army to heart and it ended with their entire armies being destroyed, like in that one battle during the Imjin war. Chungju i think it was.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            lel, based morons
            It doesnt work if you face japanese whose all motto was to never retreat and keep attacking

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >It doesnt work if you face japanese whose all motto was to never retreat and keep attacking

              You can say the same about the vatnik meatwaves
              you keep droning them, but they keep sending them

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            That tactic was supposed to only be used if you want a last stand/buy time. I bet those motards probably think its a morale boosting buff.
            The same tactic could be used in reverse to break an enemy's morale. Aka, leave an opening for an encircled enemy so to sucked them to make a break for it.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >they just took the thing as the be-all end-all definitive textbook and declared everything in it as indisputable law.
        De Re Militari was still used in the Renaissance and talked about afterwards so...

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I'd say he knows a little more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it.

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Incendiaries remain popular throughout the world despite various bans on their use

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      But is it still capable of winning battles? In the 2 battles I mentioned, Cao Cao's entire fleet got engulfed in flames and was destroyed while Liu Bei's invasion force which were encamped in a forest during the hot summer was also destroyed by the conflagration. I have never heard of entire armies or fleets getting destroyed by fire outside of China but then again im no historian.
      Can fire be used to win a battle in the modern age? Id imagine the people will just hide in the tanks. Looking at Ukraine, combustibles were ground to dust by bombardment anyways and you have a no mans land like in WW1. Is this an obsolete tactic? Is an entire chapter of this book worthless?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >By fire
        What about all the HIMARS/Smookers artillery ammunition explosion?
        We're probably never going to get the exact numbers of vatniks being vaporize during those explosion,
        but it sure did change and force the Russians to move back with their heavy artillery

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Fair enough. Guess chapter 12 isn't obsolete yet, just the application of this tactic is no longer to burn entire armies but to burn provisions.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Incendiaries are a weapon like any other and perform numerous specialised roles, in situations like they ones you mentioned where they are able to have decisive effect they can and have won battles in the modern age

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        It's 2500 years old and you're shocked to discover that some of the more specific advice may not be perfectly applicable to the modern day?

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Fire bombing ended WWII.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    That's like asking if the Tao Te Ching is still applicable in 2024.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      One is a manual on war. The other is utter nonsense. Don't compare them.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I meant the I Ching sorry, but that's also applicable.

      One is a manual on war. The other is utter nonsense. Don't compare them.

      The similarity is they're books full of platitudes.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >The similarity is they're books full of platitudes.
        One is a manual on war, the other is utter nonsense. You cannot compare a cook book and a book on the suppression of the female sex. They are not the same.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >implying cookbooks are not directly tied to the misogynistic notion of women being primarily house bound domestic workers

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Worked at Waco didn't it.

      >embracing the free flow of life and the universe instead of trying to rigidly control everything is not applicable in 2024

      Aren't feddies prohibited from posting?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Wasn't the purpose of Waco to save the kids from a bunch of pedos? It failed at Waco.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          On the contrary I think we can be very confident those kids weren't being bothered by pedos after Waco.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Hard to diddle a charred corpse..

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          The primary purpose of waco was literally to get good PR for the ATF (that worked well...) by whacking some doomsday culbreastst that outlasted their predicted universe expiration date making **legal** machineguns.
          The child burning was merely a byproduct of abject moronation.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >The primary purpose of waco was literally to get good PR for the ATF
            For what purpose?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              So ummm... I may be moronic.
              "Operation Showtime" is a phrase commonly associated with the waco siege, which is an attempt by the ATF to fix it's public image after the ruby ridge fiasco. Problem is, I couldn't find a non-polarised source on the subject, so that part could be fuddlore.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    White Phosphor is frown upon because It burns too well and is dangerous to the civilian population

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    never read art of war in full, but reading chapter 12 I think the "spirit" of it is still applicable to modern warfare. Don't know much about ancient-war but the principles of fire seem to have parallels with modern day utilization of incendiaries, chemicals, sabotage, artillery, etc. The targets are the same, as is the objective, to create disorder and take advantage of it.
    This is why people still read Sun Tzu I guess, just as a way of "cultivating" strategic mindsets.

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It can burn whole buildings if someone is careless.

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