Disclaimer before everyone shits up the thread with muh ammo waste and muh no need for it, would an accurate assault rifle, with say 500 RPM firing a cartridge similar to 556 in penetration be possible with all the modern advancements in materials, shock absorbers and the like?
The ability to fire full auto accurately out to 100-200 meters could be really interesting and possibly provide for a really fun gun to shoot.
Yea
AEK-971
AN-94
AN-94 is a delayed recoil burst rifle, the AEK is only 15-20% more accurate in full auto than an AK-74
How heavy is it allowed to be?
You should be able to fire it shouldered and carry it for long distances, ie max weight would be around G3 level
It's not that hard, there's just not enough capacity, stability and sturdiness to turn it into a machine gun.
<capacity
know that, i was asking purely for fun reasons
<stability and sturdiness
is this in regards to sustained fire and the like?
stability means that the gun stays where it's aimed at, even if recoil is tame you want to have several points of contact like a bipod so that the gun is staying still.
sturdiness and thermal mass are related to sustained fire, yes.
is there a way to improve stability while firing shouldered? maybe some kind of harness?
Very little recoil doesn't necessarily mean controllable full auto at 150 meters, i was thinking more akin to something that could, in theory, be used instead of semi auto at medium ranges, say across a field
assault rifle is there to differentiate it from a full power rifle, the fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it's le bad
you all get way too technical and into definitions and that’s exactly the problem. it’s not what “you” know it to be it’s what’s it been smeared as and perpetuating it only reinforces how normies have been brainwashed to perceive it. you aren’t operating on the same definitions. your realities are not the same
>is there a way to improve stability while firing shouldered? maybe some kind of harness?
not a practical one, no. you want to be able to control the gun while focusing on the target and retain the aiming position while you're not shooting. bipod or a tripod are great for that, a harness not so much. primary reasons are that by standing and firing you make yourself a vulnerable target and moving shifts your aim anyway, making this mobility improvement moot.
basically, you want full auto on machine guns, which are most optimized for it. their configuration allows for a greater range and ability to do area fire, while rifles can effectively engage only point targets. if you're not engaging areas filled with enemies or trying to extend the range there's little purpose to just throwing more bullets downrange and you end up wasting ammo that you have to carry. crew served weapons consume so much ammo that the entire squad usually carries the whole ammo supply, with about 50% or more of the ammo load carried by regular riflemen still being relegated to the belt fed.
This gave me an idea: how feasible would a lightened bren gun style weapon in 556 and with all the modern belts and whistles be?
As far as I know the bren had pretty small box mags and still did a great job at being a full auto gun, how about making a similar, lighter design to fill both roles and make full auto feasible in an infantryman role?
Incredibly moronic idea.
The name of the game nowadays is AR-18 copies for a reason. If you want a top mag, sure, go ahead, but you will make it an AR-18 copy.
I don't want a top mag, homie, i was just listing the bren gun as an example of a low-firerate low-capacity gun that could still be a great lmg, read the rest of it before you sperg out again
Low firerate is a result of simple quite universal factors like spring rate, bolt mass, receiver length, bolt length, bolt starting velocity etc.
The Bren is irrelevant do you not see? If you want a light weight low rpm low capacity assault rifle that could also work as an LMG you make an AR-18 copy that uses stanag mags, has a receiver two inches longer than usual, and that is literally it, you are done, you now have an AR-18 copy that is basically the same as any other but has low rpm and can be used in full auto accurately.
>assault rifle
perpetuating made up word by politicians to demonize gun owners. cringe
>confusing assault rifle with assault weapon and getting salty about it
now thats the real cringe
you think the average person you want to convince to be pro 2A cares whether you say rifle or weapon after assault? they’ve already been brainwashed. “assault” anything is cringe
but he's right. assault rifle comes from sturmgewehr which was coined by Hitler, who was a politician :^)
Why are there so many morons that think “assault rifle” was invented by lib politicians in the 21st century as opposed to being invented by Germans in WW2?
Are you just moronic?
perception is reality
Nah. “Assault weapon” is the made-up, propaganda term. “Assault rifle” denotes a certain category of rifles, was coined by the Germans in ww2.
still not getting it. this is why the libs always win the gun control narrative. tiresome really. words matter
I understand that colloquially, among normies, they mean the same thing, but this is /k/ and we are weapons autists. There are no fence sitters here we are trying to convince to be pro 2A.
And I like the term assault rifle. I think it’s edgy.
What even is your point?
Are supposed to change terms well established over the better part of the century because the libs might get offended?
>perpetuating made up word by politicians to demonize gun owners.
My sides
Didn't know the nazis wanted to demonize burger gun owners
>Sturmgewehr 44
>Assault Rifle 44
Eat shit, moron
gun owners do plenty to demonize themselves
Yes of course its possible. Look up videos of ten year olds shooting NFA AR15s, they already recoil very little even for children.
Your picrel is literally an example of a viable unified machinegun/assault rifle. All you have to do is optimize the cartridge to be light recoiling, so SCHV + a very fine, light for caliber bullet, chambered in a rifle with a constant recoil action and fed from a drum or quad stack mag. No doubt it’s possible, and if the Hughes amendment didn’t exist I’m sure there would be tons more development in the field of shoulder-fired machineguns, and that such a machinegun would already exist. Surefire (Jim Sullivan, really) made a proof of concept, a sort of modern day ultimax, with their MGX, an AR15 sized constant recoil 5.56 machinegun with quick change barrel, fed from quad stack mags. AFAIK there are only 1 or 2 in existence.
gemmy high effort response, thanks
attach a heavy-ass fixed barrel chain gun to this a setup like this
Equip infantry with powered exoskeletons with a weight bearing/shock absorbing third arm to cope with the weight, increase stability, and allow the user to use their hands to stabilize the gun more effectively
or just use the gun you yourself posted, as said
Yes. Literally all it takes is the bolt not smashing into the back of the receiver each shot.
Low RPM, muzzle breaks, suppressors, long barrels, heavy weight, stock dampeners are all just a bonus, in fact 5.56 is also just a bonus as you can easily achieve it with 308 or even 8mm mauser.
This. KAC AMG in 308 moves less than a 5.56 AR.
Nevertheless, it’s always useful to go lower in projectile momentum. Achieving the same energy, trajectory etc with small and light calibers going fast, and higher mag capacity. All this allows controllable full auto from an even lighter weapon. Dude I have a 4 pound AR and I didn’t even need to do gay shit like skeletonization. I want that, with constant recoil. One gun, that can do everything. That’s what the NGSW should have been. A lightweight unified MG/rifle, with a hybrid case .224 and quad stack mag.
>a cartridge similar to 556
No. 5.56 has too much recoil. Cut it 3.5 times to .22LR level and you get your controllable auto fire.
Such was down see Interdynamics MKR. Light bullet plus very massive muzzle brake achieved recoil of .22 LR. Never done before and after. Despite low weight hbullet had similar to M193 ballistics: 1000m/s 0.243 BC (vs 0.26 bc of M193).
Also small rimfire ammo is 2 lighter than centerfire case so 4.5x26R round had rediculosly low weight of only 3.6 (!) grams. So you can have like 900 rounds combat load and spam autofire without care.
Those micro caliber cartridges are pushing the low weight and low recoil superlatives beyond dimishing returns tbh. They can be a little bigger. They simply give up too much in the pursuit of low weight and light recoil. With a properly designed action, 5.56 does NOT have too much recoil. Look up shooting footage of the KAC LAMG, ultimax 100, and Surefire MGX. Those are all viable shoulder-fired 5.56 LMGs, and have virtually zero recoil. Hell, the 308 versions look extremely controllable as well.
That said, those micro caliber cartridges I think do have a place and might make a comeback in MP7 type weapons, especially with hybrid cases.
>Those micro caliber cartridges are pushing the low weight and low recoil superlatives beyond dimishing returns tbh.
4.5x26R was pushing into optimal burst fire dispersion. You just don't know. People have about zero knowledge about capabilities and limits of burst fire, machineguns are black holes of knowledge (God bless R. Reagan who banned machineguns for lowly peasants).
Kellgren in Interdynamics run extensive research in that area, he found relationship between recoil and burst fire dispersion, also found that 5.56 has too much recoil to bring tangible benefits from offhand automatic fire in that caliber. Quotting Kellgren: "things become interesting at 10mil dispersions and flatten out beyond 2 mil dispersion." Too achieve 2 mil dispersion rifle needs .22 LR levels of recoil.
>That said, those micro caliber cartridges I think do have a place and might make a comeback in MP7 type weapons, especially with hybrid cases.
Thing is MP7 cartridge style bullet has terrible form and high drag, after 200m it flops. But microcaliber with VLD bullet and increased velocity can reach and touch to 400 meters and thefore take role of assault rifle not just PDW.
The cartridge you described with a low form factor is exactly what I had in mind when taking about an MP7 type cartridge. 4.6x30 is trash, I’m definitely not singing it’s praises. I was thinking a longer cartridge, wider case, higher pressure, with a .204 FABRL type bullet,
What is burst fire dispersion? Accuracy in full auto?
Accuracy for 3 burst fire. Diameter of circle in mrad/mil where 50% of bullet hit. 2mils for MKR.
From another source: single shot accuracy 4 MOA (during same side by side shooting M16A1 shot 3.5 MOA), implying supported fire position. Full auto dispersion offhand for MKR was 4 mils.
Here is another relevant thing, P90 project development cartridges. Including ultrafine bullets and rimfire.
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/5-7mm-fn-experimentals/37458/10
Suck a pity FN chose such mediocre solution. Probably not because of NATO PDW requirement:
1. 200 meter target range. Can be achieved with any bullet no need for VLD bullet.
2. Pistol requirement. This implies vertically staked ositok grip magazine. Rimfire doesn't stacks well in straight column and pistol grip limits lenght of the round and thefore bullet too.
Could I get an ISBN for that book please? Google's not being helpful.
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/N/dp/B006IV3OKI
Thanks, that helps a little even if I can't read it.
ak-107. counterbalance guns have existed for 30 years and have no actual military service yet (as a mechanical system) for some reason, maybe its something we'll see when other countries start making M5-esque weapons
Balanced recoil is a meme. Ian did a video on it, said there’s virtually zero difference. Constant recoil on the other hand, the benefits are obvious.
Yes. Just use an AR
Have you ever seen someone who knows how to handle full auto fire a 5.56 rifle? They're already accurate.
Do you want high hit probability on fleeting targets or do you want tight groups on paper? Those are more exclusive goals than you might have figured.
>mfw Colt hired Cave Johnson to build their ACR
I imagine if you wanted a highly accurate full auto machine gun that can be carried by your average grunt, you would probably want the firing rate to be as low as possible.
You could just make it recoilless.
Gunny Hathwiener put an 8x Unertl scope on a ma deuce and was hitting out to a mile and a half to 2 miles. Said it was really tricky to get off just one shot at a time with the paddle trigger, but hellz yeah, it's possible.
*Forgot to add, obviously tripod mounted, and with today's compensator tech, I would think reasonably accurate follow-ups could be expected. Hell, pod mounted mini guns or the GAU-88 are wicked accurate, multi round systems. Ask any warthog jockey.