Like what if the aid was somehow magically converted to Eastern weapons, but on a cost basis. Like an Abrams would be the 2.5 t-90s or some shit. Would Ukraine do as well as it has?
if Ukraine was supplied with Eastern weapons?
Like what if the aid was somehow magically converted to Eastern weapons, but on a cost basis. Like an Abrams would be the 2.5 t-90s or some shit. Would Ukraine do as well as it has?
yeah
That depends, is it eastern weapons maintained by retarded mobiks and corrupt slave morons deployed in retard combloc military doctrine or are there actual thinking, rational people behind them?
they would probably rather have an M1 abrams rather than a pair of T-90s
and they would really rather have a battery of PGMs over any number of dumbfire soviet-era guns
but anything is better than nothing, as long as it reduces the material gap between them and russia
Russia doesn't have a HIMARS/ATACMS, NLAW or Javelin equivalent.
Tornado-S is a HIMARS equivalent, just used and built by Russians
>cost basis
If some of those weapons actually existed at scale like GMLRS rounds or Javelins, sure? The thing is they don't because they were never produced in such numbers due to the electronics. Not all of the systems are performance equivalent if you increased quantity, however.
yes. they want quantity, not quality. for stuff like pgms though id imagine they'd want excaliber over krasnopol or whatever.
Copperhead is a better design than Krasnopol due to the placement of the shaped charge up at the very front versus a big chunk of monobloc HE in the base which acts as standoff when it hits targets. Supposedly some MBTs (Soviet and Western) have gotten away with being smacked by Krasnopol due to that in the rare instances it got used when otherwise a normal 152/155mm hit should have lethally spalled the interior.
AYY LMAO
Placing the warhead futher back is superior, for shaped charges and HE-frag.
Russians didn't invented it and most post-70s ATGM (ie javelin, tandem HEAT, hellfire missile, etc) are designed in the same way to get an optimal standoff distance (4-8 diameters) that the copperhead doesn't have because it's a far older design.
Soviets knew how to do excellent shaped charges.
> shaped charges
and HE-frag like the krasnopol (6-11 kg of HE directly in the roof is a mission kill at minimum)*
It is a mission kill at a minimum regardless of whatever 152/155mm round hits but the way Copperhead is setup it has just enough standoff rather than having to blow through the electronics module with fucking plain HE.
AFAIK the krasnopol has a both PD and delayed action fuse. For DA the shell nose is crushed...
The krasnopol guidance seems to be kinda iffy if the battlefield isn't flat.
>Soviets knew how to do excellent shaped charges
is that why they didn't put one in krasnopol?
Hard to tell. While Warsaw Pact weapons should be more compatible the Ukraine war has shown that even a "small" amount of better systems can be more important that just more numbers like russia.
SS, HIMARS are critical to disrupt russian logistic, even 1000 T-90 would be useless to do that.
>500 T-90 more would end destroyed on a minefield.
I mean they have been getting a lot of eastern weapons, they early part of the war had been the west scouring the world for any stockpile of Soviet weapons, armor and ammunition they could get their hands on including SAM's and quite a few aircraft. They've done pretty well with that.
Frankly I don't think it would be thaaat bad, a lot of Russia's failures and big losses have been down to western intelligence and western training.
For all the talk about how great HIMARS and ATACMS is, Russia has been able to hit pretty much anywhere they wanted in Ukraine with their own missiles, they just don't know where shit is.
You just got to pick the right weapons, if Ukraine had a tenth of Russia's long range missile arsenal, imagine the devastation they could cause, and Russian missiles are cheap.
>Like what if the aid was somehow magically converted to Eastern weapons, but on a cost basis.
S-300/400's, Lancet, Ka-52, Kalibre, Iskander, 2S19 Msta-S, Smerch, bunch of other stuff, I think they would be fine. Are they as good as western weapons, no. However, combined with Five Eyes and they'll go far.
>early part of the war had been the west scouring the world for any stockpile of Soviet weapons, armor and ammunition they could get their hands on
i hope some declassified reporting on this comes out sooner rather than later. my hunch is that this will remain one of the biggest factors in the war that gets systematically ignored by postmortems.
i say this because state armaments secrecy seems to be extremely high for undeclared ringtausch arrangements compared to nearly everything else related to military aid. bulgaria and ukraine both maintained official silence on the artillery aid for nearly a year after sharp-eyed war observers could have first seen incontrovertible evidence that bulgarian shells were in use.
the same goes for MLRS supplies from pakistan, which became blatant over time from frontline photos alone, but still took a bad-faith* investigative exposé to confirm among everyone but osint nerds.
deals involving egypt and the arab states have been even more tight-lipped.
*the angle taken was ~ "the US supports democracy in europe, at the expense of people a continent away"
>not mentioning romania
the world will never know how much romania really helped ukraine and it's fucked up. without romania the artillery battle would be completely fucked and God knows how many afvs and other stuff have been sent secretly.
>declassified
That may be the case, but to me it seems much more likely that those countries either just did business and had no obligations to report on it or the information was public in the first place, it just wasn't reported on for some reason, like political standing (bulgarians). Pakis supporting Ukraine isn't surprising anyway, they had good political and military relationship for years if not decades.
the bulgarian connection is so messy that it's hard to tell. for years now (well over a decade), they've been dealing with russian-backed sabotage of their ammo dumps and production facilities, to domestic irritation but very little international fanfare. some of these incidents involved murders. so there was tons of domestic political sensitivity / inertia to overcome re: ramping production of warsaw pact calibres for ukraine. the US was involved somehow in sweetening the deal, but it's unclear what the intermediation looked like.
once ukraine's state armaments company was ready to report on the restarting of shell production in x calibre, they continued to frame this as with the assistance of "a NATO country", being very pointed about not mentioning the origin by name.
it took bulgaria several more months to come out and say they were supplying shells. US officials seemingly worked to keep it out of the anglophone press for ages, even after they attended a ribbon-cutting ceremony on a new factory line. whole situation was just weird.
>Pakis
pakistan seems like it was a lot easier for the glowcrew: multiple paki dudes i talk to online, who are relatively informed about separatist conflicts in their home region, the khan coup & protests, etc. flat out refused to entertain the notion that enwp.org/Pakistan_Ordnance_Factories was supplying a ton of MLRS ammo despite mounting & completely unambiguous evidence of this from osint trackers. idk. thirdies gonna third.
so spill the beans, fren. foarte bine, mulțumesc frumos praying-emoji etc.
one thing i've wondered without much evidence to go on: do nato members ever use the danube delta for getting naval aid to UA, like the riverine craft that the US has supplied? or is even that stuff routed thru poland?
romania was a large producer of soviet shells before the war and has only ramped up production since though basically none of this has been officially announced. random romanian afvs/artillery pieces show up constantly, the training grounds here https://www.rferl.org/a/nato-battlegroup-romania-russia-war/32044735.html are training "soldiers" constantly, every type of factory defense related is constantly busy. ofc none of this is announced. heres an example of afv usage https://sundries.ua/en/ngu-demonstrates-the-use-of-romanian-tab-71-against-shahed-136-video/
kinda boring but it frees up better shit to be used on the front. you can basically only find anecdotal evidence of its presence though. there it is on a truck, there it is driving, there it is shooting down lawnmowers.. this isn't the only piece just an example theres artillery mlrs etc as well
>one thing i've wondered without much evidence to go on: do nato members ever use the danube delta for getting naval aid to UA, like the riverine craft that the US has supplied? or is even that stuff routed thru poland?
izmail and the bridge connecting it to the rest of ukraine is constantly being targeted but i assume if its the us its routing through poland or maybe through romanias northern border. a lot of stuff that goes thru the adriatic gets routed through there which is again something nobody ever mentions
Ukraine's gotten a fucktons of old Eastern gear from all around the world these past couple years. They're the most common type of aid.
Not to mention outside the honest war-aid gift packages, the Russian occupying forces have been the biggest donators of new gear. As in a great source of loot.
That being said, even the locals have many times stated that the average Western gear from the past 30 years > the average Ruskie shit from the past 30 years.
Not at 2.5x ratio. If the ratio was enough to outnumber whatever Russia is scraping up, maybe. But you got to remember Ukraine needs things that outclass and outrange Russian ground forces, because in addition to that Russia has BBC, strategic missiles and Navy.
at the beginning yes - initially only shoulder fired weapons were making a difference (and could probably be replaced by greater number of soviet countrparts) later when himars came there is no direct soviet equivalent, same with long range artillery with smart munnitions, anti radiation missiles etc.
>Eastern weapons
*TF2 pan sound*
Ukraine broke the Kyiv siege, shut down the northern front, expelled Ruzzians from Kherson and took the whole Kherson oblast with nothing but a bunch of Czech and Polish T-72s.
*Kharkov Oblast
Did you forget the advanced ATGMs and MNPADS that were used for much of the initial pre-HIMARS part of the war?
They were used, but I doubt they accounted for a significant chunk of the work. They had a fuckload of Stugnas and their air defence was mostly based on post-soviet SAMs. MANPADS were useful, but come on. They mostly defended themselves on their own, all the deliveries really came into play when they started pushing back.
It's easy to forget because of all the memes, but Ukraine was fighting Russia with the exact same weapons for something like a year. With the exception of HIMARS, western weapons haven't done much qualitatively. Rather, they provided numbers and replaced those that Ukraine lost. All those tanks and IFVs and MRAPs/APCs did nothing special. That's still an important role, just not earth-shattering. HIMARS of course was really important.
It's not that the Ukrainians are some sort of superhuman warfighters with yellow tinted glasses and a 10:1 KD ratio in COD.
It's just that the Russian army is full of thievery and rape. It's been like this for hundreds of years without any reform.