If NCOs are so important to a modern military, why aren't they paid the same as officers and get equal promotion opportunities?
Preparedness & self-sufficiency community
If NCOs are so important to a modern military, why aren't they paid the same as officers and get equal promotion opportunities?
The enlisted man, though uneducated, is cunning and deceitful. They should never be trusted.
Officer hands typed this post.
I was an NCO, and I agree with that an Anon lol.
>I was an NCO
>I agree with that an Anon lol
grammar checks out
Incorrect. An enlisted man typed that post while an officer dictated it to him.
Yet you cannot debunk it
>why aren't they paid the same as officers
NCOs are paid well, it's just that >Officers are paid even better.
and get equal promotion opportunities?
Because if officers and NCOs were promoted on the same track then they would just be officers not NCOs. In modern times being an NCO is a choice not a permanent caste. At any time that NCO can complete a 4 year degree and go to officer school.
There are a lot of people who choose to stay NCOs rather than become Officers. USMC Sergeant Major Daniel Daly, the man responsible for the famous "come on you sons of bitches, do you want to live forever" qoute, and 1918 Medal of Honor recipient, was offered battlefield commissions on TWO seperate occasions. He chose to remain an NCO saying that "I'd rather be a great NCO than a mediocre officer".
>NCOs are paid well
>At any time that NCO can complete a 4 year degree and go to officer school.
I'm E-4 with two college degrees (both in physical sciences from a well-known public ivy league with a good GPA) and my pay checks are 1200 every two weeks. The only officer program I'm able to apply for has only accepted a single applicant in the last six years within my rate. There is no hope for me. I went to an enlisted recruiter by accident who told me it was near impossible to get a letter of recommendation from my senator but that I could very easily become an officer within a year of service. I'm now on my third year and I have to remind myself every day that I'm doing this for the 5 years of job experience that stopped me from getting a civilian job out of college during the start of the Covid outbreak.
Very accurate. And sometimes these idiot grunts are in charge of you just because they've been in for so long so they auto-qualify leadership despite not having the skills necessary.
Did you actually apply?
Did you actually try writing your senator?
>I'm E-4 with two college degrees (both in physical sciences from a well-known public ivy league with a good GPA) and my pay checks are 1200 every two weeks.
I was more specifically referring to E-5 and up NCOs. I'm Army, so we don't have many NCOs at E-4. Even still if you include BAH E-4 pay isn't terrible.
I also feel zero sympathy for you. You should have done more research before joining rather than walking into a recruiting office and believing every word the recruiter said. You should have told him, you want to be an officer and won't settle for less. I will never understand how people dumbasses sign their lives away for 4-6 years without researching the bare minimum shit about the military.
Also have you even tried telling your chain of command you want to commission? If they know you have two degrees they should be willing to help.
> I will never understand how people dumbasses sign their lives away for 4-6 years without researching
in my time, there wasn't much to research on your own. i wanted to be enlisted because i didn't think i could do college. a lot of guys are like that. i also got suckered in by the events on 9/11. i didn't have anyone i could talk to. got into the DEP and even the fucking recruiter about forgot about me. anyways, i did all right. hated my MOS, but made it to E6 before throwing in the towel. glad i did it, but yea, i wish i knew more. got a job doing DEERS after and seems to me, people like you, have a family member or mentor, someone pointing you in the right direction. i tell people the same thing now when asked, but i don't act like they're stupid. you can't just research a fucking life experience.
assembly line workers are so important to any factory and they get paid dogshit. that's just how the world works. they're not the ones designing the product and making decisions that will extend the life of the company.
Every decision made by the upper echelons of the US military is bringing the end of the United States closer and closer, because all empires end in destruction. The USA can only be saved by the complete destruction of our overseas empire.
meh. the wads in Washington have had and will always have their heads right up their asses. funny things is - so does every other nation's leadership.
Yes, I agree. The people who want to have power over others are a combination of incompetent narcissists and ruthless sociopaths, and the only reasonable path forward for humanity is to set up robust systems that put real checks on the people in power (preferably through the everpresent thread of collective violence if they abuse their positions)
people like that always become leaders. it takes a certain kind of person to want that if they're not thrust into it. we all need it since we all want to mind our own business and left alone. therein is the real problem. we let them. we have robust sytems, we have real checks, but they get corrupterd or ignored. no matter what system you want to build you're going to get that. my advice: accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and quit worrying about the world. it's only fate is to burn. by all means, live, love, struggle even. but all this shit will burn.
>we have robust sytems, we have real checks
lol no, the US constitution is an anti-democratic document that rigs the system in favor of the type of gays who wrote it. Patrick Henry was right not to ratify it.
yea, no and fuck you, chink. we are a republic, not a democracy. we have democratic features, but we are not and never should be a democracy. the gays who wrote it wanted a system that protected their shit without having a single man or party take it away from them. it's been eroded at ever since by cocksuckers just like you. anyway, i'm going to go read about guns. my oath is still good.
>we have democratic features
We have the illusion of democratic features, but we've always been a plutocratic republic that pretends to be a democratic one. Post gun + passport; I don't think you're American.
>I've studied lots of 4chan infographics for many years, so I understand American politics better than anyone!
I've studied the words of the founding fathers, the words of continental enlightenment thinkers, the words of fascists, anarchists, communists, and capitalists, and various accounts / syntheses across the history of human civilization. Humanity has organized itself in many different ways in our time, but one thing that has held true for the past 10,000 years is that all empires are destroyed.
Does that mean you don't actually have a formal education or qualification in any of that?
I have a BA in History with a focus on Revolutionary History from Illinois Wesleyan University.
So that's a no then. No shame in it man. A BA in History is still a laudable effort.
>not a formal education
kek, based retard
keep coping non-stemmy, you'll figure out how to tie your shoes one day
The question was
>Does that mean you don't actually have a formal education or qualification in any of that?
and "any of that" was referring to
>I've studied the words of the founding fathers, the words of continental enlightenment thinkers, the words of fascists, anarchists, communists, and capitalists, and various accounts / syntheses across the history of human civilization. Humanity has organized itself in many different ways in our time, but one thing that has held true for the past 10,000 years is that all empires are destroyed.
If you have a STEM degree, why are you so bad at logic?
a bachelors in art/history is not a formal education, its proof of attendance to a daycare for 18-23 year olds
come back when you get a doctorate, then you'd be about on the same level as a B.S
>a bachelors in art/history is not a formal education
Also, even if you don't consider it a formal education, it is 100% a qualification.
>Does that mean you don't actually have a formal education OR QUALIFICATION in any of that?
>a bachelors in art/history is not a formal education,
My brother are you retarded by chance?
t. coping baristas
I actually have B.S in History because my university considered studying history to be a science. History degrees are actually classic tradition for military officers because studying history is how you study militaries and warfare.
t. Army officer w/ history degree
Just move to Russia gay
Why would I do that when I believe in democracy, justice, freedom, and the rule of law? I know that our rulers don't believe in any of those things, but I do, and I believe America can live up to the ideals it was founded on.
Also, the entire anti-federalist coalition at the convention believed in democracy. Ben Franklin though the constitution was garbage and barely ratified it, and only agreed to after the Bill of Rights was added (which the federalists did not want). In fact, over two dozen delegates refused to sign it. You're an ahistorical retard who learned everything he knows from public school and Hollywood movies.
Based on reading this, if you weren't in the military you'd be working at starbucks while complaining that you have two college degrees and complaining about capitalism. Externallocusofcontrolcel
You're a fucking idiot and did it to yourself. How the fuck can you be so stupid as to not even be able to google "how to become an officer" before FUCKING ENLISTING?
>Public ivy league
Lol. Every ivy league is private. No such thing as a public ivy. That's just something state schools call themselves so gullible people from out of state go to the school. This bro coping hard
UICU, UVA and UCLA are incredibly good schools by any metric. William and Mary as well. Stop talking about that which you know nothing about retard.
The Ivy League is an NCAA Athletic Conference of eight schools, and historically pre NCAA included West Point and Annapolis, again, based on athletics. 'Public Ivy' is retarded cope, similar to the University of South Dakota referring to itself as the "West Point of the Plains" for some reason.
it's because USD has a really large ROTC program relative to everyone around it/the population of the school
Just because you live in a garbage state doesn't mean the rest of us do.
you're either retarded or worse, a marine
>Didn't apply to the Navy Academy
>Didn't apply for ROTC
>Didn't even apply for OCS when going to the recruiter
You were never going to make it as an officer.
>it was near impossible to get a letter of recommendation from my senator
WTF does that even mean. Every member of Congress is allowed to make 5 nominations to each Service Academy each year. How hard it is depends on whether your congressional district is filled with retards or liberals.
t. ring knocker
go to OCS you stupid moron
I don't think the nation needs an officer who believed the recruiter's lies about needing a Senator to nominate you for ROTC or OCS
>I'm an E4 with two college degrees
>I believed my recruiter when he said you had to have a nomination from a Senator
you aren't officer material
literally the WORST prior service officers are the ones that only went officer because they realized it was easier than making E-7.
At the end of the day these are different career tracks. I was an officer but I sort of daydream of enlisting in the guard since I miss the military but wouldnt want the responsibility and workload of being a part-time officer. Being an officer got me my education and job, but that this point enlisting would be for reasons other than career.
Unfortunately my wife and I live nowhere near family and we have our careers set up where we don't need childcare but have two decent incomes and there is no way to fit the national guard in there, not to mention a deployment.
maybe one day. I was Army but I look at the deployments the Air guard units around me do to support contingency operations and they're like 3 months long. Must be nice.
ANG have it sweet and dat retirement is nice too.
the job and responsibilities of the NCO vs the Officer are completely different. NCOs are essential to getting a unit combat ready along with providing critical small-unit leadership in combat. Officers on the other hand are responsible for planning and understanding the bigger picture. Officers need their NCOs to provide advice while also ensuring the unit is combat ready. NCOs need their Officers to ensure the unit has what it needs to accomplish the mission, to include the plans for how the mission is to be accomplished.
>why aren't they paid the same as officers
because officers, being higher IQ, can make more in the private sector - so you gotta pay them more to retain them
>equal promotion opportunities
if you promote all your NCOs who's gonna do the NCO-ing? retard
the whole point of NCOs is that they're adequately compensated grunt wranglers. you need a lot of grunt wranglers and they're inherently occupying a low rung of the administrative ladder.
>because officers, being higher IQ,
Officers haven't had a higher IQ since the 1970s. Source: Joint Forces Quarterly.
Link? Officer IQ has gone down for sure, but I don't think it's below the general population though
>I don't think it's below the general population though
It's not. Neither are grunts or NCOs - since the army bans IQs under 85 it's technically above average despite being short of geniuses.
The dilution of college standards is what dropped officers from 120-130 to 100-115.
the average IQ is always 100, since IQ scores are derived by how far away someone is from the average
>the average is always 100 cope/deflection in anno domini 2002+21
It's time to read some studies, anon. We've been adjusting to measure against a standard for decades now so this deflection is as obsolete as the 'muh cultural test differences' one.
You can only compare IQ test scores between people who have taken the same IQ test, because they're all standardized against other people who took that test. You don't know what you're talking about lol.
>aaaaaa you can't correct for and compare different metrics
Yep, it's reddit.
cope + seethe retard, different IQ tests are not standardized against one another
Damn. If only we had a way to calculate differences between different things and normalize them!
You can search all day to try to find it, but there is no normalized IQ score across all the different IQ tests available. It does not exist, and you will never post it.
>The dilution of college standards is what dropped officers from 120-130 to 100-115.
Education can't improve IQ, it's inherent. Midwit government employee brain at its finest.
Officers have quite the promotion bottleneck as well, if you make it to full bird you're probably a piece of shit. Where if you make it to gunny or SFC you could very well be an ok guy.
Because you don’t make the best indians chieftains.
they are different types of jobs and ideally complementary to eachother
the irl major sixta got arrested for being a pedo
why don't they get rid of officers and privates and make everyone an NCO?
Because good officers are even more important and to get good officers you have to attract the best talent and that means university graduates. And that means you have to pay them a decent wage and more than the enlisted. Although they will almost certainly get better money elsewhere, you're also relying on the perceived status of military officers, patriotism and inculcated notions of duty for attraction and retention.
This post will cause a great deal of buck toothed, rednecked enlisted seethe.
I hate enlisted so much. Jesus the amount of bullshit caused by them that I've had to deal with. Overgrown fucking children. Literally every day I was dumbfounded by their antics. WHY ARE THEY LIKE THAT!?
You know how out of control colleges are? Put those same people on a base but now jacked up on testosterone and given guns and heavy equipment what did you think was going to happen
I al going to drink Krombacher through my empty Panzerfaust 3 tube and there is nothing you can do about it Lt.
officers are white collar bitches
NCOs are trades
This is America, we don't pay people who are important unless they're at the top. Know your place, socialist euro.
What the fuck are you talking about? Is there a single Western military that pays its Sergeants and up less than six figures equivalent US? They earn more than officers less than Major rank, even before extra duty allowances.
People will say that NCO’s choose to be, even after getting degrees. But the reality is the NCO to officer pipeline isn’t exactly cut and dry, and just like how everything is based off the needs of the service you aren’t guaranteed to become commissioned even if you’re a badass NCO, if only because they can do much more good being a badass NCO than become a fresh butterbar or captain/lieutenant. Officers aren’t *that* important in the grand scheme of things, but someone who can speak with and wrangle the grunts to do their jobs well (or at all lel) is worth their weight in gold. Officer promotion is full of bullshit too, and once you get to colonel and above its basically almost all politics, and nothing but once you become a flag officer.
>also the military in general is only really appealing to a very specific type of person overall, so if you want all those fresh college grads to even start considering you over a private company you damn well better sweeten that pot a little
Because the Officers are the OGs who train the entire military, organize everything, develop the plans to win the war, and are the ones who have to deal with the political class and fallout from the defeat in wars.
NCOs just need to tard wrangle the enlisted.
>Officers are the OGs who train the entire military
NCOs do most of that.
>NCOs just need to tard wrangle the enlisted.
Neverserved detected or perhaps retarded.
>NCOs do most of that
Where do you think NCOs got their knowledge from in the military? Officers came first.
Everyone hates NCOs. Especially the lower ranked ones. Everyone above and below them just dumps shit on their heads. In return, they get surly and hateful. They're also the only people retarded enough to turn their 4 years into 8+ years.
Officers are supposed to be entrusted with following through with orders. Think of them as knighted men who are entrusted by a lord to do his bidding. You not only want guys with higher intelligence, you also want guys who can take more responsibility. College degree is an antiquated but still effective way at vetting people to see who is up for being an officer and who isn't. As for pay, like I said, they're entrusted to follow through with orders, you're gonna need some incentive for that.
The US never should have maintained a literally Dark Age system of Commoner/Nobility soldiery.
I point this out every chance I get, the top Enlisted Rank in the Roman Legions was the equivalent of a Full Bird Colonel. The XO of a regiment/batallion (Camp Prefect in a Legion) was a professional soldier's rank. Rome is a better analogue for the US than dark age social classes entrenched into modern militaries as a cargo cult formalism. You have a reasonably educated, reasonably literate population (like Rome had) to draw from and put in your professional army.
You mean mercenaries?
No. Professional soldiers and mercenaries are two historically different things no matter how hard insecure anti-government larpers try to twist it.
Yeah, the difference is that a "professional army" is brainwashed to think they're "serving" their countrymen rather than their rich bosses. Mercenaries are at least honest about what they're doing.
>-t. the official Wagner Group sales narrative
A professional Army is one made up of soldiers who believe in themselves, their nation/people and are willing to die for it, and therefore directly hold it accountable in return. Volunteering into an Army because it's a jobs program for gibs is unironically worse than just having mandatory conscription in the long run.
Like I said, brainwashed. There's a reason you're called 'bots.
Russians are subhuman orc invaders, and Putin should be executed on live television.
>t. low Thumos energy
BAP is gnomish
>getting your knowledge on ancient Greek metaphysics and philosophy purely from BAP
>not getting it by actually reading the ancient Greeks
The only people bringing up thumos in 2023 are ideologically silo'd twitter / tiktok zoomers.
>projecting onto me to discredit me
Actual underhanded feminine bullshit right there anon.
I'm right and you know it, zoomie
>sets up strawman
>knocks over own strawman
>I win [insert r*ddit meme here]
Unironically Plato tier gayry right here.
There are many fine qualities you can assign to the bulk of enlisted personnel. "Reasonably literate" is not one of them.
>A degree in history isn't a formal education.
Historians from all ages are rolling over in their graves, especially since most of them were the ones to read/write shit and pass it down to others.
Aren't modern soldiers basically mercenaries? I mean think about it really? They're only serving because of the money and benefits. The moment the military stops paying, no one is going to stay for free.
Wait until you learn about the wage troubles of the American Revolution in school.
Side note: George Washington's observations about the militia compared to professional soldiers.
George "Glowmoron Rentier" Washington
>fuck the founding fathers who forged America! I, Jayden Smith from Tijuana Oblast am the true patriot!
Very nice sir now face the wall.
>a literal UBI advocate who cucked out when his ideals were put into practice in France
He was a rhetorician. When it came to actually doing things instead of being a quill-and-horse era propagandist Paine was useless, and idolizing him is a red flag for a poor education.
Example: Silas Deane and John Laurens brought home the money the colonists needed while Paine farted ideological BS about war profiteers.
The only reason the regular men and women of America decided to fight and die for independence was the ideas espoused by Thomas Paine. He actually believed in what he was talking about, unlike the cynical businessgays who were the most anti-democratic of the founding fathers. To paint them as a monolith when there were bitter contentions between different factions belies a childlike vision of American history.
I like this quote too, where T. Paine says that any lawmakers who tries to institute fiat currency should be put to death. He said this as someone ordinarily against the death penalty, and he was actually jailed by Robespierre for speaking out against all the beheadings.
>The laws of a country ought to be the standard of equity, and calculated to impress on the minds of the people the moral as well as the legal obligations of reciprocal justice. But tender laws, of any kind, operate to destroy morality, and to dissolve, by the pretense of law, what ought to be the principle of law to support, reciprocal justice between man and man: and the punishment of a member who should move for such a law ought to be death.
Your pay is at least to some extent determined by how _replaceable_ you are.
If it takes a lot of time and/or costs a lot of money to train up a replacement for you (e.g. you're an O-5, or doing a highly specialized job that few are qualified for), it's *probably* smarter to just pay you enough to keep you from heading to greener pastures (but also have a pipeline for training replacements in case shit happens). If your job can simply be handed to someone else with relatively little time and money spent on orientation, then it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money to keep you in.
This simple rule of thumb can be applied with limited success both in the military and the civilian world; it breaks down as you get higher in command or corporate hierarchies. The influence of skills, experience and insight tapers off gradually, and your replaceability starts to be determined by interpersonal relationships - who you know and how loyal your superiors consider you.
Because it’s harder to become an officer, and even harder to get promoted past O-3. Enlisted retards just have to avoid getting too many DUIs and they can make E-9 guaranteed if they stick around long enough.
>harder to get promoted past O-3
If you made it to captain and can't make it any farther it was a mistake. All you have to do is not fuck up routine paperwork and there's literally a schedule to follow for your next promotion, it says exactly what you have to do and for how long.
things don't get political until after you make full bird, which is why there are shitload of retired cols and lt cols, but even then you'll make general if you reup after your 20 and don't fuck up very basic office shit.
>but even then you'll make general if you reup after your 20 and don't fuck up very basic office shit.
Yea that's not true at all. Only about 1% of officers ever make it to general officer rank. There are plenty of 20 year O-5s and 30 year O-6s who tried and failed to get a star.
Who's the bigger retard? The poor dumb kid who enlists into the military to move up in his awful life, or the college educated man who chooses a life of administering a militarized DMV and topping out at like $150k by the end of their career?
>the college educated man who chooses a life of administering a militarized DMV and topping out at like $150k by the end of their career?
Is this supposed to be a bad thing? You do realize that 90% people never come close to earning $150k in their entire lives right?
>the dollarmaxxing virgin vs the chad combat killer
Trick question. They're both hasserveds and you're not.
I'm an afghan vet, I just moved on and see things with greater clarity now that the illusion of chasing the dragon is gone.
>i got a liberal arts degree on government gibs money and shilled my woke-vet status to leftist professors for social credit
You're the one shilling the pursuit of a gay government job that you can't really get fired from at the expense of independence and profit
The army is jobs training and to secret clearance. Simple as. I'll be leaving after.
Not OP, but is NCO’s who then go on to officer training rare? I always thought officers who come up from enlisted would have the experience and be more in-touch with the men they command. Or is there something positive about officers with no prior enlisted service just pushed into commanding the enlisted?