>incompatible with anything off-the-shelf.
Oh moron please. The picatinny aftermarket barely existed in the early 2000s. Magpul was still stuck making magazines, your only options were the issued KAC grip, surefire M900s and 660 gangster grips; and the latter two were only options for SOF and geardos in very lax units. Aftermarket grips and rail covers only really blew up when the AWB expired in 2004, by which point the XM8 had already faced cancellation twice and was already effectively dead in the water. The XM8 had a lot of issues, but compatibility with a handful of aftermarket accessories was utterly irrelevant to its cancellation.
It was supposed to shoot out a burst of flame to help clear out trenches, but napalm hadn't been invented yet and it was too small to hold a lot of fuel, so it was very anemic and described by testers as a "mild annoyance."
>Fitting a bayonet on a non-threaded suppressor
You have to respect the designer's ability to fit on all manner of stuff on something that wasn't meant to have attachments, but at some point you know you have gone too far.
In fairness, standard issue optics, under barrel launchers, extended magazines, and pistol caliber conversions for rifle platforms are all pretty common these days. In hindsight it's easy to see which of those ideas work, but it's kinda hard to figure out what is tacticool bullshit and what is gonna be the future of small arms when you're in the moment.
If you literally mean a single example of a firearm, you're right. But if you talk about platforms, well, let's use the AR as an example. We got: >Standard issue red-dots and ACOGs >M16/M4 with the underbarrel M203/M320 >magazines of all sorts of sizes >ARs chambered in 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and 10mm Auto.
With the AK you don't see many optics because they're mostly used by brokies, but you still have RPKs with the extended mags, PP Vityaz and Bizon as pistol caliber conversions, and GP25/GP30/GP34 UBGLs.
Again, this is assuming you're not referring to literally a single firearm with everything at once.
To be fair, it was the Soviet Union that lost Afghanistan, under General Secretaries who were mostly Ukrainian, so the vatniks can just deflect blame for losing that one onto Ukraine
>Uses othe countries' soldiers to fight their war >Loses, with mostly Ukrop losses and very few Russian >Entire government and union still collapses
...that's worse.
Everything any European country east of Germany can be proud of was built by the communists. Shame on them for their insolence and lack of gratitude. Do not sully the name of the Soviet Union like the Bolsheviks didn’t bring the Russians into modernity.
Honestly once drones get sufficiently strong and major players stop using it as a weapons testing ground it would unironically fall like a house of cards.
The only reason Afghanistan exists is because all of its invaders didn't want to actually kill the population that lives there.
Once someone decides screw ethics, Afghanistan and its people aren't needed anymore and they're actually worth killing for some reason, it will literally stop existing in a month. But genocide is all behind closed doors instead now.
>haha you left a country after occupying it for 20 years that means you would lose a war
Why do third worlders make this argument so much? Do they not know the difference between a war and an occupation?
>Show up >Blow up al-quadia >Except not really >Get told to blow up Taliban instead so the CIA can monopolize poppies and boylove >Taliban widely supported by the Afghan people >Now in a war of occupation you never asked for >Are we the baddies?
1 month ago
Anonymous
Taliban were gays too, all pashtuns are, otherwise correct
1 month ago
Anonymous
>>Are we the baddies?
we're not muslims, so no.
1 month ago
Anonymous
widely supported by the Afghan people
only by Rual retards most city people aka civilized hated them
1 month ago
Anonymous
>most city people aka civilized hated them
Wow, they sure did as little as possible to help the US push them out then then did nothing after they fully occupied the entire country
>losing a war vs successfully invading a country and leaving after 20 years of occupation
Either you’re just retarded or you’re coping hard if you can’t tell the difference.
>look at this gun that we made entirely modular and easy to attach a flashlight to >Picatinny releases a retrofittable mounting system that blows it out of the water
The funny part is, pic rails were a thing even before the xm8 was produced. Just shows how out of touch the top brass can be
That wasn't "top brass" that was just HK thinking they could rape the military with their proprietary garbage, and the top brass ended up rejecting it.
>That wasn't "top brass"
But it was. The first prototype presented to the Army had rails like any other rifle, and then said top brass specifically requested HK to develop some sort of new attachment system.
The XM8 was a mediocre replacement for the M4, but as usual people overdo it with the criticism and accuse it of things that just weren't true.
And a main selling point of the XM8 was the swappable configurations in a deployed environment. Which was cool, and everyone online always drools over but it’s kind of a non-factor in practice for the average soldier. ARs already are modular enough for practical needs and even then swapping uppers out on the fly is very rare outside of specialized units.
This gun was definitely an answer to the non-problem of ARs being shitty, given that in the early 2000s the average perception was still that they were the same as original issue small batch M16 Jam’o’matics.
That proprietary attachment system was just pure greed.
>the average perception was still that they were the same as original issue small batch M16 Jam’o’matics.
Which is correct, in that the guns themselves weren't ""fixed"". The M16 choked at the starting line when never once cleaned in a wet jungle on a steady diet of indefinitely reused disposable magazines and the cheapest gunpowder available, and the current ARs would do the same if they were treated the same. Same as just about any other gun.
Right. I’m just talking about perception, which popularly at the time was “M16 bad. M16 jam. Replace M16” and for the purposes of discussion M16 and M4 are the same thing, because again public perception is retarded.
The XM8 was capitalizing on this. >You want the troops to have the best equipment right? >You don’t want them using those awful Vietnam rifles? >Remember how bad your uncle said they were? >Pressure the military to give our boys the best no matter the cost!
Mk23s had a government sale and were produced for several years, and the civilian versions just ran on from that. XM8 had no guaranteed sale, so there's no reason to tool up for something that probably wont sell (MR556s often shelfwarm); and that's assuming they can export them without making an SL8 equivalent that will discourage even more potential buyers.
I don’t really care about the M4 being replaced, but the actual biggest sin the US Army has committed was adopting UCP instead of All Over Brush. It would probably still be in service today if they had, and without the subsequent adoption of multicam because UCP was so bad, we probably wouldn’t see every fucking country wearing multi, and have more unique camo designs for different countries
Nah, one of the reasons the army did want to get away from woodland camo was that everybody had copied or bought surplus. The US military makes a huge amount of stuff, and the demand will always be for whatever the main US pattern is.
Also, All-Over-Brush follows the same thinking as multicam: One universal pattern to do everything. And since it was brown dominant like multicam it would have worked and been copied.
So, you’re wishing for a universe where every country is wearing All-Over-Brush knockoffs. Which is a based universe to wish for.
What are you talking about? All over brush was a family of three patterns. It wasn't meant o be universal, although it did perform the best overall in multiple environments. UCP took the colors from the worst performing pattern "Urban Tracks" deleted black and used the MARPAT/CADPAT pattern. There was no other thinking behind UCP in reference to you saying it was made for NVGs. As for W2 , it was a contractor offer by Crye. During the competition when the army adopted it to get rid of UCP the requirements required bookend patterns which is the reason multicam arid and tripic exist, but then the Army realized they had the W2 pattern from 2004 and didn't have to pay crye for it and said fuck it to the bookend patterns.
Just addressed the all over brush, as I did mean desert brush specifically since that was the winner according to Natick.
In your picture there of Urban Track you can see that UCP is not just a transplant. Urban Track has both black and tan which is not present in UCP, and the grey tones are quite different. If you look in the linked hyper stealth article you can see the Urban Track did perform well at night, which is why it’s colors influenced UCP, but the UCP colors are not one-for-one copies.
If you're referring to tan in general, UCD has tan in it. If you're referring to the darker tan in some images of Urban Track, it was changed in phase II of the trials. As for black the army deleted it with the stated reason being it not appearing in nature, and I already said that they had deleted black.
I'm telling Ben you posted this.
Ben's dead, friend.
1 month ago
Anonymous
UCP-D is unrelated and I don’t think worth talking about since it has nothing to do with the original adoption of UCP.
For for black and tan, as of December 2004, it was still shown as part of Urban Track. If you have more up to date slides, I want to see them, but all the charts I have show the pattern with the black when it was tested.
As for being the worst performing, it did actually perform well at night against IR. So again, UCP adoption was driven by colors good against NODs, though UCP and Urban Track do not share the precise same colors.
1 month ago
Anonymous
I think we a have a fundamental problem with communication. I wasn't talking about UCP-D, which I really like I think it looks awesome. I was saying that Urban Track had it's darker tan elements removed in Phase II of the trials, it never lost the black. When they made UCP they used the same colors as Urban Track from Phase II minus black. It's in the original Natick presentation.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Right ok. I knew you were not talking about UCPD but you seemed to think I was. Let us both agree to never speak of it again.
What you’re showing in that picture is Urban Track. And you are saying the colors in that picture were transplanted to make UCP. I understand.
However I am saying two things:
1) Urban Track influenced UCP but the colors are not precisely the same. Not all tones of grey are one-for-one. This is according to hyperstealth which I’m going to believe unless there is documentation that the colors were transplanted instead of us looking at copies of pictures of PowerPoint slides with embedded pictures in them and trying to determine if the colors match.
2) According to the slides, again up in the hyperstealth link, greys were chosen because grey, tan, and black tones were the only acceptable tones against NODs. There is a Natick slide dedicated to saying that.
From those slides, I go all the way back to my original comment that UCP colors were chosen for performance against NODs.
Then, jumping off from what I believe is fact as shown by Natick, I inject my opinion that the cult of night supremacy was strong at the time in the army, and that the camo was chosen in a misguided attempt to be forward looking about near peer nation threats that would have night vision, while largely ignoring camo as a factor in occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. I do not agree with this, I am stating what appears to be the reasoning.
1 month ago
Anonymous
I can't really argue with what you're saying it makes sense and I wasn't in the heads of the Natick scientists, although I am very skeptical of their claims of it being for night time performance, if it were UCP itself would have went under more trials with publicly available documentation. I'd also caution against trusting Guy Cramer. He's a Canadian guy that sold patterns to a few militaries and has some great patterns, but I've had some personal interactions with him and he really comes off as a greasy salesman. A couple years ago he was trying to pass off a lenticular lens sheet as an invisibility "Quantum Stealth" technology that he invented. https://www.hyperstealth.com/Quantum-Stealth/
1 month ago
Anonymous
I understand that’s he’s somewhat self serving. His conclusions must inevitably be that his camo designs are of course superior. I remember there being some weird claims about GHOSTEX. But when it comes to things like the Natick slides, public info is very scarce if it isn’t from him.
The fact that grey, tan, and black tones are the only ones considered acceptable against IR, and the fact that UCP is all grey tones can’t be a coincidence. And that opinion on acceptability is not coming from the word of Guy, but from the Natick slide itself.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Add: Regarding lack of UCP testing before adoption. This is leaning into schizo territory but my guess (guess!) is the people in charge knew that UCP would suck total ass in daytime camo tests, but they really wanted to adopt it for night time anti-NOD purposes. So they simply didn’t do the tests and rushed it into service. People can’t complain that you adopted a pattern that tested terribly if you never do the tests.
I don’t think any of this was decided by Natick. Those people seemed to genuinely want to do a good job. The Desert Brush they presented seemed like a genuine effort. But their data was taken and mangled by people who wanted reality to conform to how they wanted the army to fight, rather than how it currently was fighting.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>Ben's dead, friend.
Rip Ben I hope his Camo collection is in good hands
>All Over Brush
Yes you are right. I did mean the Desert version which was the finalist as a possible universal pattern. If it makes you happy, replace all previous mentions with “Desert Brush” as that is the only variant that was meant to be a final contender
>UCP uses Urban Track colors
Not exactly. Urban Track is pretty different so it’s not like they just transplanted the colors.
Natick did day and night testing (through NODs), and from that testing derived colors that should have worked the best. Since there was very little variation in scoring across the daytime testing on average between patterns, it was the night time scoring which provided the most variation and drove the selection.
Urban Track scored well in the night testing, so it did influence the colors, but so did the data from all the patterns.
The colors in UCP were not transplanted off any of the tested patterns, but extrapolated from the colors they thought would perform best.
Below link also talks about all the all over brush variations.
Putting a bodykit on a G36 doesn't suddenly make it good.
For another, it has even WORSE problems regarding mounting space than the M4- a platform that already was low on room for an optic, white light, LAM, and switches for those things.
Then you have the dummy wide mags, melting body cladding, and pencil barrels. It's not good and was never good.
This is now a Camo thread.
Furthermore, EVERY SINGLE CAMO PATTERN, OTHER THAN M81, IS COMPLETE AND UTTER TRASH.
Every single one.
EVERY single one!
Okay?
Marpat? Trash.
UCP? Trash.
All over brush? Trash.
Anything Slavic? Trash.
Whatever the brits are wearing? Trash.
Multicam? Trash. >Tiger stripe is pretty based-
NO, actually it isnt. It's trash. >but surely you must think brush stroke is pretty go-
NOPE.
TRASH.
Sperging over small arms is retarded. Does it shoot? Yes? Good. No? Not good. Nobody cares about that 0.1% edge case performance. New planes, drones, helicopters, missiles, radars, etc. will be infinitely more useful than the modern equivalent of a slightly more pointy stick.
Shut up you euro noguns gay.
fippy
bippy
The gun was too expensive.
the sl8 retails for 1300
the only costly part is the optic
What killed the XM8, more than anything else, is that it's modularity was proprietary bullshit incompatible with anything off-the-shelf.
It’s compatible with the 416’s gas piston and rings, also it has the same trigger components and hammer as the UMP.
>incompatible with anything off-the-shelf.
Oh moron please. The picatinny aftermarket barely existed in the early 2000s. Magpul was still stuck making magazines, your only options were the issued KAC grip, surefire M900s and 660 gangster grips; and the latter two were only options for SOF and geardos in very lax units. Aftermarket grips and rail covers only really blew up when the AWB expired in 2004, by which point the XM8 had already faced cancellation twice and was already effectively dead in the water. The XM8 had a lot of issues, but compatibility with a handful of aftermarket accessories was utterly irrelevant to its cancellation.
Don't worry, that was gonna happen anyway
>I hope America loses every future war for rejecting this.
I hope America loses every future war for rejecting this
>We could have upgraded an already twice upgraded musket with a tubular magazine
VGH, we have to go back
>flaming bayonet canisters
It was supposed to shoot out a burst of flame to help clear out trenches, but napalm hadn't been invented yet and it was too small to hold a lot of fuel, so it was very anemic and described by testers as a "mild annoyance."
I don't know what the hell is going on here, but I'm erect.
>Fitting a bayonet on a non-threaded suppressor
You have to respect the designer's ability to fit on all manner of stuff on something that wasn't meant to have attachments, but at some point you know you have gone too far.
Tacticool bullshit truly is timeless
In fairness, standard issue optics, under barrel launchers, extended magazines, and pistol caliber conversions for rifle platforms are all pretty common these days. In hindsight it's easy to see which of those ideas work, but it's kinda hard to figure out what is tacticool bullshit and what is gonna be the future of small arms when you're in the moment.
they are but not at the same time, in the same gun
improvements converge, everything else specializes
If you literally mean a single example of a firearm, you're right. But if you talk about platforms, well, let's use the AR as an example. We got:
>Standard issue red-dots and ACOGs
>M16/M4 with the underbarrel M203/M320
>magazines of all sorts of sizes
>ARs chambered in 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and 10mm Auto.
With the AK you don't see many optics because they're mostly used by brokies, but you still have RPKs with the extended mags, PP Vityaz and Bizon as pistol caliber conversions, and GP25/GP30/GP34 UBGLs.
Again, this is assuming you're not referring to literally a single firearm with everything at once.
>he doesn't spray paint his rifle
>/cangen/ meta 2025 circa
Not against russia, that's for sure
>Not against russia, that's for sure
I'm glad you are not hiding you are brown and retarded
>afganistan
To be fair, it was the Soviet Union that lost Afghanistan, under General Secretaries who were mostly Ukrainian, so the vatniks can just deflect blame for losing that one onto Ukraine
>Uses othe countries' soldiers to fight their war
>Loses, with mostly Ukrop losses and very few Russian
>Entire government and union still collapses
...that's worse.
>Russians sending west Russians to war
Stop describing our current predicament 🙁 you're making me feel worse than I should be.
Everything any European country east of Germany can be proud of was built by the communists. Shame on them for their insolence and lack of gratitude. Do not sully the name of the Soviet Union like the Bolsheviks didn’t bring the Russians into modernity.
>Gorbachev
>Ukrainian
>Gorbachev was born in Privolnoye, Russian SFSR, to a poor peasant family of Russian and Ukrainian heritage.
>Britain
>Russia
>NATO
Who's up next? China?
Honestly once drones get sufficiently strong and major players stop using it as a weapons testing ground it would unironically fall like a house of cards.
The only reason Afghanistan exists is because all of its invaders didn't want to actually kill the population that lives there.
Once someone decides screw ethics, Afghanistan and its people aren't needed anymore and they're actually worth killing for some reason, it will literally stop existing in a month. But genocide is all behind closed doors instead now.
>haha you left a country after occupying it for 20 years that means you would lose a war
Why do third worlders make this argument so much? Do they not know the difference between a war and an occupation?
they aren't stupid, they're dishonest. lying comes as naturally as breathing to the third-worlder.
>we didn't fail, we failed. it's different so it doesn't count
lmao
>Show up
>Blow up taliban
>Gubbermint says you gotta stabilize the region
>Gubbermint splits resources between Afghanistan and Iraq
fuck
>Show up
>Blow up al-quadia
>Except not really
>Get told to blow up Taliban instead so the CIA can monopolize poppies and boylove
>Taliban widely supported by the Afghan people
>Now in a war of occupation you never asked for
>Are we the baddies?
Taliban were gays too, all pashtuns are, otherwise correct
>>Are we the baddies?
we're not muslims, so no.
widely supported by the Afghan people
only by Rual retards most city people aka civilized hated them
>most city people aka civilized hated them
Wow, they sure did as little as possible to help the US push them out then then did nothing after they fully occupied the entire country
>losing a war vs successfully invading a country and leaving after 20 years of occupation
Either you’re just retarded or you’re coping hard if you can’t tell the difference.
By that logic allies lost to the Nazis since they eventually left germany
No, because the Nazis collapsed after their leader an heroed. If the Nazis came back full force after the allies left that'd be a victory too.
What did that occupation amount to then?
>gets defeated in just 2 months and occupied for 20 years
Turd worlder education everyone.
If a man came into your house and fucked your wife for 20 years then left, you didn’t fend off the attacker
More like if a repo man tried to seize your house for 20 years but gave up the ghost. Plenty like him before him
Vivek? Is that you? Only one American pajeet is this retarded. Post hands
>look at this gun that we made entirely modular and easy to attach a flashlight to
>Picatinny releases a retrofittable mounting system that blows it out of the water
The funny part is, pic rails were a thing even before the xm8 was produced. Just shows how out of touch the top brass can be
That wasn't "top brass" that was just HK thinking they could rape the military with their proprietary garbage, and the top brass ended up rejecting it.
H&K still ended up winning by convincing everybody their 416 rifles were the answer to a non-existent problem.
>That wasn't "top brass"
But it was. The first prototype presented to the Army had rails like any other rifle, and then said top brass specifically requested HK to develop some sort of new attachment system.
The XM8 was a mediocre replacement for the M4, but as usual people overdo it with the criticism and accuse it of things that just weren't true.
And a main selling point of the XM8 was the swappable configurations in a deployed environment. Which was cool, and everyone online always drools over but it’s kind of a non-factor in practice for the average soldier. ARs already are modular enough for practical needs and even then swapping uppers out on the fly is very rare outside of specialized units.
This gun was definitely an answer to the non-problem of ARs being shitty, given that in the early 2000s the average perception was still that they were the same as original issue small batch M16 Jam’o’matics.
That proprietary attachment system was just pure greed.
>the average perception was still that they were the same as original issue small batch M16 Jam’o’matics.
Which is correct, in that the guns themselves weren't ""fixed"". The M16 choked at the starting line when never once cleaned in a wet jungle on a steady diet of indefinitely reused disposable magazines and the cheapest gunpowder available, and the current ARs would do the same if they were treated the same. Same as just about any other gun.
Right. I’m just talking about perception, which popularly at the time was “M16 bad. M16 jam. Replace M16” and for the purposes of discussion M16 and M4 are the same thing, because again public perception is retarded.
The XM8 was capitalizing on this.
>You want the troops to have the best equipment right?
>You don’t want them using those awful Vietnam rifles?
>Remember how bad your uncle said they were?
>Pressure the military to give our boys the best no matter the cost!
Same playbook as Dragon Skin.
>That proprietary attachment system was just pure greed.
Wasn't their idea.
>That proprietary attachment system was just pure greed.
Literally requested by the Army. The original prototype had rails.
>proprietary attachment system was just pure greed
It'd certainly stop morons selling kit on ebay though.
>US Military abandons SOVL in 2005
>instantly goes to shit and has lost every war since
>Russian military abandons SOVL in 2010
>instantly goes to shit and will soon have lost every war since
I'm starting to see a pattern here...
>I'm starting to see a pattern here...
Yeah it's called M81 woodland
>Russian military abandons SOVL in 2010
You mean ditching the third world look and looking more professional?
What does the tacticool lunchbox hold anon
Keep coping gay, you'll never get your hands on one.
Oh no.
Anyway.
J-Just wait until I get my Tommybuilt!!
Why doesn't HK produce semiauto versions of the XM8? Seems like it would be easy money among the kind of people that also buy stuff like MK23 pistols.
Mk23s had a government sale and were produced for several years, and the civilian versions just ran on from that. XM8 had no guaranteed sale, so there's no reason to tool up for something that probably wont sell (MR556s often shelfwarm); and that's assuming they can export them without making an SL8 equivalent that will discourage even more potential buyers.
>MR556s often shelfwarm
That MSRP doesn't help. KAC flies because "collectability" and LMT also warms, online at least I never see them in stores
looks like a super soaker
I don’t really care about the M4 being replaced, but the actual biggest sin the US Army has committed was adopting UCP instead of All Over Brush. It would probably still be in service today if they had, and without the subsequent adoption of multicam because UCP was so bad, we probably wouldn’t see every fucking country wearing multi, and have more unique camo designs for different countries
Nah, one of the reasons the army did want to get away from woodland camo was that everybody had copied or bought surplus. The US military makes a huge amount of stuff, and the demand will always be for whatever the main US pattern is.
Also, All-Over-Brush follows the same thinking as multicam: One universal pattern to do everything. And since it was brown dominant like multicam it would have worked and been copied.
So, you’re wishing for a universe where every country is wearing All-Over-Brush knockoffs. Which is a based universe to wish for.
What are you talking about? All over brush was a family of three patterns. It wasn't meant o be universal, although it did perform the best overall in multiple environments. UCP took the colors from the worst performing pattern "Urban Tracks" deleted black and used the MARPAT/CADPAT pattern. There was no other thinking behind UCP in reference to you saying it was made for NVGs. As for W2 , it was a contractor offer by Crye. During the competition when the army adopted it to get rid of UCP the requirements required bookend patterns which is the reason multicam arid and tripic exist, but then the Army realized they had the W2 pattern from 2004 and didn't have to pay crye for it and said fuck it to the bookend patterns.
Forgot the pic.
Urban Tracks which gave it's colors to UCP. Also the worst performing pattern of the trials.
Arid tracks, along with woodland tracks and urban tracks.
Eugh. That’s even uglier than UCP. Which I didn’t know what’s even possible outside of meme camos
Just addressed the all over brush, as I did mean desert brush specifically since that was the winner according to Natick.
In your picture there of Urban Track you can see that UCP is not just a transplant. Urban Track has both black and tan which is not present in UCP, and the grey tones are quite different. If you look in the linked hyper stealth article you can see the Urban Track did perform well at night, which is why it’s colors influenced UCP, but the UCP colors are not one-for-one copies.
If you're referring to tan in general, UCD has tan in it. If you're referring to the darker tan in some images of Urban Track, it was changed in phase II of the trials. As for black the army deleted it with the stated reason being it not appearing in nature, and I already said that they had deleted black.
Ben's dead, friend.
UCP-D is unrelated and I don’t think worth talking about since it has nothing to do with the original adoption of UCP.
For for black and tan, as of December 2004, it was still shown as part of Urban Track. If you have more up to date slides, I want to see them, but all the charts I have show the pattern with the black when it was tested.
As for being the worst performing, it did actually perform well at night against IR. So again, UCP adoption was driven by colors good against NODs, though UCP and Urban Track do not share the precise same colors.
I think we a have a fundamental problem with communication. I wasn't talking about UCP-D, which I really like I think it looks awesome. I was saying that Urban Track had it's darker tan elements removed in Phase II of the trials, it never lost the black. When they made UCP they used the same colors as Urban Track from Phase II minus black. It's in the original Natick presentation.
Right ok. I knew you were not talking about UCPD but you seemed to think I was. Let us both agree to never speak of it again.
What you’re showing in that picture is Urban Track. And you are saying the colors in that picture were transplanted to make UCP. I understand.
However I am saying two things:
1) Urban Track influenced UCP but the colors are not precisely the same. Not all tones of grey are one-for-one. This is according to hyperstealth which I’m going to believe unless there is documentation that the colors were transplanted instead of us looking at copies of pictures of PowerPoint slides with embedded pictures in them and trying to determine if the colors match.
2) According to the slides, again up in the hyperstealth link, greys were chosen because grey, tan, and black tones were the only acceptable tones against NODs. There is a Natick slide dedicated to saying that.
From those slides, I go all the way back to my original comment that UCP colors were chosen for performance against NODs.
Then, jumping off from what I believe is fact as shown by Natick, I inject my opinion that the cult of night supremacy was strong at the time in the army, and that the camo was chosen in a misguided attempt to be forward looking about near peer nation threats that would have night vision, while largely ignoring camo as a factor in occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. I do not agree with this, I am stating what appears to be the reasoning.
I can't really argue with what you're saying it makes sense and I wasn't in the heads of the Natick scientists, although I am very skeptical of their claims of it being for night time performance, if it were UCP itself would have went under more trials with publicly available documentation. I'd also caution against trusting Guy Cramer. He's a Canadian guy that sold patterns to a few militaries and has some great patterns, but I've had some personal interactions with him and he really comes off as a greasy salesman. A couple years ago he was trying to pass off a lenticular lens sheet as an invisibility "Quantum Stealth" technology that he invented. https://www.hyperstealth.com/Quantum-Stealth/
I understand that’s he’s somewhat self serving. His conclusions must inevitably be that his camo designs are of course superior. I remember there being some weird claims about GHOSTEX. But when it comes to things like the Natick slides, public info is very scarce if it isn’t from him.
The fact that grey, tan, and black tones are the only ones considered acceptable against IR, and the fact that UCP is all grey tones can’t be a coincidence. And that opinion on acceptability is not coming from the word of Guy, but from the Natick slide itself.
Add: Regarding lack of UCP testing before adoption. This is leaning into schizo territory but my guess (guess!) is the people in charge knew that UCP would suck total ass in daytime camo tests, but they really wanted to adopt it for night time anti-NOD purposes. So they simply didn’t do the tests and rushed it into service. People can’t complain that you adopted a pattern that tested terribly if you never do the tests.
I don’t think any of this was decided by Natick. Those people seemed to genuinely want to do a good job. The Desert Brush they presented seemed like a genuine effort. But their data was taken and mangled by people who wanted reality to conform to how they wanted the army to fight, rather than how it currently was fighting.
>Ben's dead, friend.
Rip Ben I hope his Camo collection is in good hands
I'm telling Ben you posted this.
>All Over Brush
Yes you are right. I did mean the Desert version which was the finalist as a possible universal pattern. If it makes you happy, replace all previous mentions with “Desert Brush” as that is the only variant that was meant to be a final contender
>UCP uses Urban Track colors
Not exactly. Urban Track is pretty different so it’s not like they just transplanted the colors.
Natick did day and night testing (through NODs), and from that testing derived colors that should have worked the best. Since there was very little variation in scoring across the daytime testing on average between patterns, it was the night time scoring which provided the most variation and drove the selection.
Urban Track scored well in the night testing, so it did influence the colors, but so did the data from all the patterns.
The colors in UCP were not transplanted off any of the tested patterns, but extrapolated from the colors they thought would perform best.
Below link also talks about all the all over brush variations.
https://www.hyperstealth.com/camo-improvement/
The funny thing is that in the thumbnail of the guy in all-over-brush, it looks like he's wearing multicam.
no everyone would have used all over brush
looks like shit
Rifle trials showed that an unacceptable amount of soldiers would die of embarrassment.
>not wanting to be the Starship Troopers
Gaaaaaaaay
>I hope America loses every future war for rejecting this.
say no more
fucking hell
is that the dastardly doings of "Bendy" Bill?
>slightly more modular variant of existing unremarkable rifle in sci-fi plastic shell
Nothing of value lost by not adopting it.
Is this a really shit handguard, or a horrifically badly attached barrel?
Every free float AR will do this and I challenge anyone to post a webm proving otherwise.
It's reasonable for 20+ inchers to slightly bend.
It is not for carbines and SBR's especially SBR's with thicc barrels.
It's not the barrel that's bending
Putting a bodykit on a G36 doesn't suddenly make it good.
For another, it has even WORSE problems regarding mounting space than the M4- a platform that already was low on room for an optic, white light, LAM, and switches for those things.
Then you have the dummy wide mags, melting body cladding, and pencil barrels. It's not good and was never good.
I hope America loses every future war for rejecting this.
This is now a Camo thread.
Furthermore, EVERY SINGLE CAMO PATTERN, OTHER THAN M81, IS COMPLETE AND UTTER TRASH.
Every single one.
EVERY single one!
Okay?
Marpat? Trash.
UCP? Trash.
All over brush? Trash.
Anything Slavic? Trash.
Whatever the brits are wearing? Trash.
Multicam? Trash.
>Tiger stripe is pretty based-
NO, actually it isnt. It's trash.
>but surely you must think brush stroke is pretty go-
NOPE.
TRASH.
ALL OF IT!
Fuck you!
Excuse the fuck out of you, M81 sucks anywhere that isn't a forest in New England or Europe during the summer. Choco Chip is mega based.
NO!
YES!
OD GREEN IS BASED TOO EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T CAMO
OD Green is King.
I didn't include it in the schizo post for that same reason.
But, yeah.
100% agreed.
>M81 sucks anywhere that isn't a forest in New England or Europe during the summer.
whats it like to be full of millions of tons of pure shit?
I just wanted to fuck with that guy tbh, M81 is fine, but Multicam works better here in the Texas Panhandle.
because multicam is the best pattern.
i love u
Point of order!
Frog Skin.
>A G-36 with meltier furniture
>when the G-36 is just an AR-18 with meltier furniture
yeah I think you're a europoor idiot
Nice try, germoid politician.
I wish somebody other than an airshit company made this camo.
I love her. Fuck Colt(hold), Fuck SIG(GER). HK Perfection NUMBAH WAAAN. Anything else is compromise. I LOVE HER I LOVER HER LOVE HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope Russia loses all future wars for rejecting this
That looks like shit.
It was too good for us.
Preach, love the 90s and 2000s
I hope America loses every future war for rejecting this.
This was the right choice and they fucking knew it.
why?
bullpups blow chunks
If they had just made the suppressor less ugly... alas.
chode suppressor
Bruh is that guy holding a halo 2 battle rifle
*Crysis
>I hope America loses every future war for rejecting this.
Sperging over small arms is retarded. Does it shoot? Yes? Good. No? Not good. Nobody cares about that 0.1% edge case performance. New planes, drones, helicopters, missiles, radars, etc. will be infinitely more useful than the modern equivalent of a slightly more pointy stick.
Ugly and oversized.
To be honest I miss the days of chunky fishguns.
>rejects this gun
>loses almost every war afterwards
Coinicidence? I think not
Yeah M81 was pretty fucking cool Anon. As the saying goes, you don't know what you got till its gone.
>stops using this to defend the republic
>becomes Ital*an
oh look it's a fan of that somehow shittier G36
*fishier
>another AR-18 with a weird chassis.
Oh no. Such loss. Such sad.
Anything but more soulless AR lookalikes.