How does France cope with not having generation 5 and being stuck with 4++ ?

How does France cope with not having generation 5 and being stuck with 4++ ?

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Ils fabriquent eux, it's worth it's weight in gold to retain independent manufacturing capacities and not be dependent on someone else. Just look at England, Canada, and Australia for examples of what happens to a country when they fully give up indigenous production

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      France rely on other nations for many of their military capabilities. There are no major western militaries that don't have some sort of foreign sourcing of military equipment or materials.
      >give up indigenous production
      The British produce a lot of their military equipment indigenously.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You're preserving domestic industry capabilities, your military spending boosts your economy instead of someone else's, and France likes their strategic autonomy. I don't think anyone expects that the Americans would sanction France, but one too many disagreements and those procurement requests might take a while for the FMS security check to go through, you know? Plus France is the second-biggest exporter after the US right now, so they must be doing something right.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Plus France is the second-biggest exporter after the US right now, so they must be doing something right
          Isn't it both because the Rafale sold like hot-dogs on sale during an american fair in the past few years, and because the war in Ukraine proved that russian stuff was only good on paper?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You can add submarines and Caesar SPH.

            Plus load of contracts for Thales and Safran (maintenance, electronics etc.).

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You can add submarines and Caesar SPH.

            Plus load of contracts for Thales and Safran (maintenance, electronics etc.).

            >You can add submarines and Caesar SPH.
            And imagine where it would be if the US didn't bribe some Australian politicos to sellout his country to the US (instead of making competition play and ask France to give the Nuclear option Aussies didn't wanted before)

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >The British produce a lot of their military equipment indigenously.
        HAHAAHHA, no they absolutely do not
        lmfao, what steel industry does britain have?

        >Australia

        They get to techskip straight to next gen nuclear attack submarines? Is that a bad outcome?

        >They get to techskip straight to next gen nuclear attack submarines? Is that a bad outcome?
        that the US controls 100% top to bottom, in every phase, that Australia doesnt even get token 'stewardship' over

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >France rely on other nations for many of their military capabilities
        The opposite,
        France is the only one to have everything we expect of an army, including ability to deploy over sea. Even if in a reduced/less efficient form.
        Sure it make it a bonzai army but at least it could develop everything if they needed to. The EU only need to ask France and they could make everything ITAR free.

        >The British produce a lot of their military equipment indigenously.
        British are the ones heavily dependent on the US and other countries, there's a lot they cannot produce themselves.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Just look at England, Canada, and Australia for examples of what happens to a country when they fully give up indigenous production
      What happens in Britain, Canada, and Australia that doesn't also happen in France?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The frog is coping here. All those countries can make things and contribute to their own and to each others defence supply chains.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Why are you comparing all those non-muslim countries to a muslim country anon?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Australia

      They get to techskip straight to next gen nuclear attack submarines? Is that a bad outcome?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >paying x10 the actual cost per sub
        >paying the US to build bases instead of being paid to lend the land
        >no access to the nuclear technology components of the subs, let alone tech transfer

        Australia deliberately screwed the frogs around over the course of a decade wasting time and money, and have turned their navy into a US foreign legion. Should've just bought the original French nuclear designs or the Japanese diesel-electric designs if the government was adamantly anti-nuke (they weren't).

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          France isn't committed to security in the Pacific, the US is. The deal is as much political as it is anything else which is why a large part of it is the inclusion of guaranteed US/UK submarine presence in the region. The whole deal revolves around countering China, it's not surprising they opted for the US.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The Australian War Memorial kinda emphasized how the Australians thought they were fricked when the brits got BTFO in Malay and Singapore and were sure they were going to get invaded before Coral Sea / Solomons and hadn't really had a cultural expectation that the US would ride to the rescue for a commonwealth country (we don't tell them that was just a happy side effect of the *must kill more japs* side quest we went on)

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          umm sweaty, the AUKUS deal is far more than 'just' an entire SSN building industry + subs. I wouldn't be shocked if they did end up giving over the tech for SSN reactors. Australia is already the only export partner for all sorts of high end US tech eg LRASM, EA-18G. There's also tons of hypersonic research being shared, as well as the unmanned teaming aircraft.

          >french subs

          sounds like frog cope to me

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >bro youre totally paying 10x the cost of the sub
          Kek how are you still using this cope little frog

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    My first guess would be "Being part of NATO"

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They are doing something with the Germans apparently. Haven't heard much about it since they announced it.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The EU 6th Gen Fighter (FCAS) is still stuck in the 'pointless bickering' phase of all defence projects involving France, where France demands that the entire project be specifically tailored to meet France's incredibly niche requirements (see the Eurofighter, MGCS, etc, etc). Usually that goes on for a few years quietly in the background until everyone else involved in the project just declares that 'this is bullshit' and pulls out, leaving France seething quietly to itself and trying to pretend that it's still a serious world power rather than just another Satrapy of Brussels.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >all that seething
        Oh my, did a Frenchman steal your GF or something?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >niche requirements
        >wanting a multirole figther
        >plus a carrier-version
        How is your "air defense only" Eurofighter going?
        Oh right! It's shit and you had to rework it into basic air support because you realized that's a fricking waste not to.
        And Germany veto selling it to any country, meaning you may as well not exist internationally.

        Meanwhile, the Rafale can do everything better, and sell like crazy despite the US trying to bribe all the client.

        So of course the FCAS will never be made unless France is at the controls and dumbass don't have veto power.
        We are even willing to trust Germany with MGCS because their pride of their honestly good tanks keep them from their usual cowering "let's sell our industries to the US".
        Germany would be building their own Maritime Patrol aircraft too if their lobbyist didn't sellout to Locksheet.

        France isn't arrogant. We are just that good and Germany is a whiner we still want making our tanks.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Germany would be building their own Maritime Patrol aircraft too if their lobbyist didn't sellout to Locksheet.
          German here. Iknow, and all I feel isi rage.

          >France isn't arrogant. We are just that good and Germany is a whiner we still want making our tanks.
          We just spent 80 years hearing 'yuo are teh nazis' in iresponse to oliterally everything we either di or did not do, and on topp of that we had to finance rebuilding half of Europe after the Soviets looted everything and let the rest rot for half a century.
          Also, our politicians are all spineless sellouts who are either in Washington's or Moscow's pocket. Or they're some kind of yuppies who were bought whole by a lobby group and sent to write laws for them.
          It'll take another ten years before that changes, but it willl change. Let's hope it will not be too late.

          Also, we will keep building tanks and uboats. And apparently air defense. Give us some time. Your Rafale does a great job, and SCAF will be pretty damn coool when it's done.
          PS: Let us do the tank things. Trust me. You guys go do wheel things.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >How is your "air defense only" Eurofighter going?
          >Oh right! It's
          Crushing the F-15 in Red Flag so they put it just behind the F-22
          And any time Germany wants they can launch Brimstones and Paveway IVs, they just need to buy the ordnance
          Seethe and cope Pierre

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          FCAS won't look like that.
          I doubt they will go for a tail given how extreme stealth has to be for a 6th gen system of systems.

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Rafale, is fully the equal of the F-35, Su-57 and J-20 as a fifth generation fighter. Like the KF-21, it is a 4.5 gen with development potential to be further upgraded to fifth gen. That is why many countries, such as India, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE which have requested F-35s or were looking at other fifth gen options like the Su-75 and KF-21, are now Rafale users.

    The Eurogay Typhoon meanwhile remains a 4-4.5 generation aircraft with no further development potential, and the countries who are using it primarily (UK, Italy, Spain etc) are all F-35 users and have no incentive to develop it further

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >the countries who are using it primarily (UK, Italy, Spain etc) are all F-35 users and have no incentive to develop it further

      The Typhoon is still in active development with Tranche 4 recently underway and is a very capable fighter and also now bomber too.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >and also now bomber too

        The Typhoon FGR4, is fully the equal of the F-15E in the strike role.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          F-15E can carry a heavier loadout and has almost twice the range for ground attack missions with those massive internal and external fuel storages

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Fully equal to...
      Here we go...
      >F-35
      No, Jean...no
      >SU-57
      Kind of easy when there are only 22 of them even if it wasn't just a body-kit slapped on a Sukhoi
      >J-20
      Literally locked by an F-16 near the Taiwan strait, it's an even worst case of body-kit on a Russian license

      Nobody is saying the Rafale is a bad fighter, but get real buddy.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        > Literally locked by an F-16 near the Taiwan strait
        Source: my vietnam/afghan whipped mutt ass

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Oops, sorry, it was an Indian SU-30 that locked the J-20, the F-16Vs are locking J-16s without even the PLA pilots knowing they're made. But, seeing as how the N011M radar is inferior to AN/AAQ-33, doesn't seem at all unlikely that the AN/APG-83 would have issues..

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            So wishful thinking..again
            No wonder you got ass whipped by rice farmers

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Still struggling with those W-15 engines, Xiao?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >vietnam
          wanna tell me how china's war with them went?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            With chinese troops occupying them

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              You mean with Vietnamese troops continuing to occupy Cambodia until 1989, right?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Wouldn't suprise me as it has the RCS of a schoolbus according to the Taiwanese who has been having fun experimenting with their RCS by pinging them with radars.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            can everyone please learn what a luneburg lense is and why you use them when flying stealth aircraft near enemy radar in peace time?

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              That is a software that calculates RCS, so pretty unreliable results unless they modelled every crevice.

              >How is your "air defense only" Eurofighter going?
              >Oh right! It's
              Crushing the F-15 in Red Flag so they put it just behind the F-22
              And any time Germany wants they can launch Brimstones and Paveway IVs, they just need to buy the ordnance
              Seethe and cope Pierre

              Not Pierre.
              F15 is a half a century old design and the F22 has a 135MHz CPU, most unimpressive.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >there are [..] 22 of them
        May we see them? If 4 is all you've seen together at one time, they've got 4.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I think they're getting the "80% complete" mulligan.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Literally locked by an F-16 near the Taiwan strait
        LMAO, this cope story. F-22 and F-35 have been "literally locked" by old-ass Sukhois and MiGs. You've got less than no clue about how stealth works if you think that there's any meaning to this.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >it's an even worst case of body-kit on a Russian license
        A body kit on what? The MiG MFI? Nothing the soviets made looks like it, it just looks like a natural evolution of the J-10 which itself is an evolution of the Lavi. Yeah it’s full of avionics ripped straight out of the F-35 via espionage but outside of the engines of the first ones it’s pretty unrelated to any Russian plane.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          .50 RMB have been deposited to your account

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          China straight up copied the lavi.
          https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-12-28-mn-13774-story.html

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Imagine piloter un «taille-foune» XD

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >taille-foune
        Putain, je la ressortirai celle-là 🙂

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Indian tier cope. Fully expected from a french homosexual.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >fully the equal
      Some of the best pasta around

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Like the KF-21, it is a 4.5 gen with development potential to be further upgraded to fifth gen.
      You can't just upgrade a 4.5 gen to a 5th gen you stupid Black person. You would have to redisgn it from the ground up to get it to actually be stealthy. You may just as well make a completely new aircraft at that point.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yet the KF-21 was designed to be upgraded to a fifth gen

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          KF21 goes into the "4.5th gen".
          It is a 5th gen airframe with 4th gen sensortech and armaments.
          Same way Rafale is a 4th gen airframe with 5th gen sensortech and armaments.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >all 5th gen are of equal value

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >implying the Felon is a 5th gen

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Tbf, it was on ground, unmanned.
      Any vehicle is vulnerable like that.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    who needs a 5th Gen when you have the almighty Pluto Super Etendard

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      But they don't have any of them anymore

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      More like SUPER moron

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The most they'll use their air force for is bombing african militias

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >How does France cope
    Big white wiener. You wouldn't understand.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The same way everyone who isn't the US does.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Frog here, noone is under any delusions that the plane is better or equal to an F35. It is however ours, and that has value in and of itself. Falcon rockets are generally better than Ariane rockets, but Ariane is ours. Abrams is generally better than Leclerc, but Leclerc is ours.
    Inb4 Ariane is a European program, yes it is, but we're big a big enough player in that program (especially considering we control Kourou, the only European space port) that we get to swing our balls.
    Obviously when you're part of an international program with the US, the US are the ones who get to swing their balls.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Is it worth it though? Your paying more and getting less, and if the shit ever actually hits the fan you will measure those capability differences in lost lives.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Is it worth it though?
        It's always worth it.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You'd think burgers wouldn't need the value of independance to be explained to them

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You can always outsource your production to cheaper places but the term "shit hitting the fan" kinda implies fraught international diplomatic situation and those often come with massive disruptions in supply chains, and it is at that point where more independent and domestic production gains a value of its own. With defense capabilities, independence and strong domestic productive potential is extremely important, so even if excel counters say that outsourcing is cheaper and more effective, with long term strategy it might not be. How effective your on paper best weapon systems actually are if you can't get spare parts and ammunition for it because your source is on the other side of the globe with suddenly unfriendly politicians in charge?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Is it worth it though?
        It's worth a lot when no other homosexual can deny you stuff

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >noone is under any delusions that the plane is better or equal to an F35
      As a fellow frog I concur, we know the Rafale is not equal but ONLY BETTER than F35.
      It doesn't waste money on overhyped feature like VTOL and don't sacrifice its performance for a vain attempt at stealth.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Does the same mission
    Cost less
    Entirely built in France
    It's a win win situation

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Being rightfully arrogant and reminding the anglo serfs that their plane is domestic.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Schizophrenic Israel tier nuke policy

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They were never going to drop nukes on withdrawing German/NATO troops. It was just a clear warning to the Soviets that they would not tolerate a ground war on French soil again and that they had the capability to execute that warning even if it directly impacted its allies.

      It was honestly the best and most legitimate nuclear threat the Warsaw pack faced imo.

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Does anyone know when aircraft generations were first ruined? I believe it used to be extremely clear-cut up until the F-22 came along, called itself fifth-generation and then it triggered a storm of retroactive cope generations like 4.5+++++.

    The F-15EX mogs all of them and as far as I've been able to see at least Boeing has the dignity to not call it a "4.5"

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Tbh aircraft generations were ruined when everyone but the burgers decided to skip an aircraft generation and just keep shoving new shit into their old 4th gens, since the Soviet Union collapsed and we were all going to be happy friends forever or something.

      Consequently, every nation which isn't running one of the 3 "real" 5th gens (F22, F35, and J20) is instead taking literally every 5th gen development they can get their hands on and stuffing it into their old 4th gen designs...except for low observability, since that requires a purpose built airframe. Of course, stealth is *the* big feature of 5th gen, so anything without it can't truly be called a 5th gen fighter (sorry Sukhoi femboy), hence the term 4.5 gen to represent all the aircraft which are trying to fake being 5th gen but don't have its core feature.

      I can't wait until we get the next USAF alien space ship in the form of NGAD, and someone starts calling F15s retrofitted with variable cycle engines, drone networking and DEWs "4.75 gen".

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    4, the (++) is baguette cope

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      We say 4.5 in France not ++

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Just call it 4

        Meh, the whole gen gimmick is just an american marketing tool.

        It is an easy way to say that the new one completely btfos the last one

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Meh, the whole gen gimmick is just an american marketing tool.

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The F35 has an access mechanism that gives the US the power to shutdown any F35 to include those sold to other countries

    This is not an issue if a country is 100% aligned with the US, but for countries that seek some level of autonomy it creates an issue

    Also, no country can do repairs or even routine maintenance without the expressed approval of the US

    cliffs, the F35 is a US asset whether owned by the US or not

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    At what point the frogs ditch their pride and buy an American plane? Or will they opt for technological inferiority instead?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      We can manage on our own with limited budget.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They will hide behind the American military. If it ever comes to a position where everything is so shit and the French actually have to fight, they'll just surrender.

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The strongest militaries always rely on domestic production. Having 20% better plane overall means nothing if your procurement can be marketed as developing your country's economy and making more jobs so you order twice as many of the planes and recover some budget by selling stuff to other countries.
    >Turkey
    >France
    >Korea
    >Israel
    All rely heavily on domestic technology when they can and are generally better off than similar countries buying foreign. Countries like Poland too want to at least have a lot of technology transfer when buying from Korea, and when buying from USA a lot of it is down to diplomatic relationships.

    Then there are other problems in a hot war or before a hot war. For example USA can delay any contract for weapons you need if they themselves need it and now you're left with no tanks (see the Patriots for Ukraine). Or the country you're buying shit from just switched government to one unfriendly to you and despite seeing a war brewing just beyond your borders, you can't even resupply spare parts for your vehicles.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah, France is big enough to keep up a proper MIC, and as their enemies aren’t likely to have better planes than Rafale, the arrangement is in extremely high likelihood better than buying planes from US. The guaranteed availability and economic benefits probably outweigh the added capabilities of F-35 when you look at the picture as whole, even though F-35 is the better plane.

      That being said, considering all the parts of the equation, there aren’t too many countries that can pull their own national projects as a beneficial arrangement with fighter planes even if they had US as an option.

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >How does France cope with not having generation 5 and being stuck with 4++ ?
    Like this.

    Any more questions?

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Who are they going to fight that they would need 5th gen planes for ? The US ? No.
    The russians ?
    Get out of here.
    A bunch of MiGs with Harms and AiM-120s would be enough for those, much less a Rafale.

  21. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    by having first strike nuk usage policy (as a warning).
    even Russians look quite civilized in comparison...

  22. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    wtf is even a 5th generation fighter, 4th gen + a raspberry pie?
    stealth is irrelevant anyway in 20th + 1 century, you can see all that shit from space satellites 24/7

  23. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Probably by being one of the few nations that still has a domestic aviation industry.

  24. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Rafale is better quality value than the F35 and likely a superior aircraft to have all around.
    Making up an arbitrary self-serving ""generation"" will not change that.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/XCRDzXG.jpeg

      >noone is under any delusions that the plane is better or equal to an F35
      As a fellow frog I concur, we know the Rafale is not equal but ONLY BETTER than F35.
      It doesn't waste money on overhyped feature like VTOL and don't sacrifice its performance for a vain attempt at stealth.

      >BETTER than F35
      Least deluded baguette
      You're a fricking joke

  25. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    France fields the most advanced and most popular 4th gen airframe in existence with a 6th gen project in the works.
    I think they can lay off of the cope, and so should you.

  26. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    gen 5 is a joke, thats consists of a russian failed abortion fetus, american cuck sitting in the corner of the room, and a chink that tries to mimic the cuck in the corner

  27. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Well judging by how the French do, it's more like 4++++++++++++ again 5----------- if you know what I mean.

  28. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They "cope" by not needing anything now or for the foreseeable future because they're not run by the MIC

  29. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There is literally no nation outside NATO that can deal with an F15 in competent hands and you think they need a 5th gen because ... ?

  30. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Chances are it's good enough to take on anyone France is likely to fight.

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