How does electricity work?

How does electricity work?
I recently had a well issue, so I learned a bit about well pressure switches and had to replace mine.
First to troubleshoot, and then for safety before replacing, I used a multimeter on my pressure switch when the contacts were open.
I don't know correct terms so I am going to say 'input' to refer to the wires carrying electricity from my circuit breaker to my pressure switch, and 'output' to refer to the wires carrying electricity from my pressure switch to my well pump, sorry if that's the wrong words.
Touching one of my multimeter leads to the input hot wire and the other to the input neutral wire gave me a reading of 220V. Touching one of my multimeter leads to the input hot wire, and the other to either ground or an output wire gave me 110V (when the pressure switch contacts were open, meaning no electricity was flowing through the output wires). Touching one of the leads to the input neutral and the other to ground or output also gave me 110V.
However, it is my understanding that only the hot wire carries electricity from the source (breaker) to the destination (pressure switch or well pump).
So why is it that neutral to ground or neutral to disconnected output was also giving me 110V?
Is this because there was electricity flowing through my breaker box due to my other breakers for my other appliances or what?
What is the neutral wire doing?
Also, my pressure switch has two ground wires, one coming from the input wires and attached to the metal body of the pressure switch, and the other coming from the output wires and attached to the metal body of the pressure switch. Both are connected to the same metal body. Obviously I am going to leave them both attached, but purely theoretically, they serve the same purpose, so I would really only need one or the other of the two ground wires connected, so I could disconnect either one and still be completely safe (assuming there's no broken wire anywhere, etc,), correct?

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  1. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    One is ground in from your panel. One is ground out to your pump.

    Black is hot. White is also hot but the other sidenofnthe split phase. They're both 120v to ground and 240 to each other

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      It is my understanding that the ground wires are so that if some fault results in current passing through the metal body of the pressure switch, the current will flow into the ground wires instead of into a person who happens to be touching the pressure switch, correct?
      In which case, I still don't get why there would need to be two ground wires. While one goes to panel and the other to pump, both ultimately just go into the ground as a safe path for electricity in case of fault, correct?
      thank you

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        There is no current passing through the chassis. If a wire breaks and happens to come in contact with the chassis, then it should keep the chassis safe to touch in some way.

        The chassis doesn't generally count a ls a current carrying conductor so you can't get a ground source farther down the leg by screwing onto the chassis. The only ground source is the wires.

        In the one box you posted a picture of. The enclosure is designed to act as a bus bar for ground and it has two ground screws. So alright you can have ground in and pit of your switch. It's surely listed for that.

        Your pump needs to be grounded too, not just your switch

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          >If a wire breaks and happens to come in contact with the chassis,
          Isn't that the whole point of having ground wires attached there, in case that happens?
          >Your pump needs to be grounded too, not just your switch
          But surely that could be accomplished by just having a ground wire right at the underground pump running out into the ground, there is no reason for any fault at the pump to need a ground wire running back into the house?

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            No. Actual literal earth, sticking a wire into some dirt is not actually ground. If you measure the resistance from your house's ground rod to some patch of dirt it's gonna be like 70k ohms depending on soil conditions. You can't use this high resistance path to even balance out load differences

            • 1 year ago
              Anonymous

              What? What is literal earth versus dirt? You just mean it has to go deep into the ground? I don't get why a ground wire from an outdoor underground pump would run into my house.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Sticking a wire in the dirt is not the same as electrical 'ground'. End. Stop trying to frick around, you're gonna find out.

                Your ground conductor goes all the way back to the service entrance for your power where it's bonded to neutral/ground and that goes back to the transformer where its bonded to neutral/ground.

                Your ground wire has to run into your house so it can ground itself to the panel.

                If you dont have this ground conductor all the way back to the transformer there's not going to be enough current flow in a fault to trip the breaker.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Homosexual post. Pound an iron bar into your yard, steal it from a railroad, run some copper lines to it. electricity will never bother you again

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >electricity will never bother you again
                Not all shocks are fatal, it might bother him a few times before it never bothers him again.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                ground rods are for lightning dissipation and have no other purpose

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                ground is ground, thats why they call it ground
                americans confuse themselves by calling the neitral conductor, the negative of a battery, anything else, ground. which it isn't.
                the cpc, ground wire is ground.
                a ground rod, normally a copper stake that you hammer into the ground, is a perfectly legitimate ground connection, as long as it is installed by a professional with suitable test equiptment to check the impedance is low enough to be effective.
                the problem is americans don't do any testing whatsoever on electrcal installs, thats why they can't install ground rods.
                if you are wondering why you have extra ground connections it could be bonding, a very low impedance path to ensure equal potential between exposed metal parts which otherwise could shock someone.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                As stated just above you, a plain ol ground rod, even installed to uour spec, ie 166ohm resistance won't do fricking anything to trip a current based circuit breaker. It needs to be bonded to the ground wire provided by your provider.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                here he goes again with the circuit breaker. Do you work at home Depot anon?

                Will current flow through that rod or not, anon? And if it's only 5 amps and your stupid IRL breakers are 20, let's install five.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                > It needs to be bonded to the ground wire provided by your provider.

                Literally no such wire exists in most of the world. Only in some of the wealthiest countries is this common. Even then, it is also staked at every distribution box and substation.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                The euros get one. It was one of the first posts in the thread. You can get one in the US, you just need to pay more for the service. They're common in trailer parks.

                here he goes again with the circuit breaker. Do you work at home Depot anon?

                Will current flow through that rod or not, anon? And if it's only 5 amps and your stupid IRL breakers are 20, let's install five.

                Because the ground is a shitty conductor no matter what you do.

                Go out and check with your screwdriver. I'm waiting.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Go out and check with your screwdriver. I'm waiting.

                Can I just drop a multimeter probe off my dock? I'd be happy to do that when I get off work.

                >The euros get one. It was one of the first posts in the thread.
                doesn't mean it's necessary by the laws of physics or electric power distribution. In fact,
                >You can get one in the US, you just need to pay more for the service.
                100% implies they are optional.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >You can get one in the US, you just need to pay more for the service. They're common in trailer parks.
                Spoiler alert: this isn't an insulated line all the way to the powerplant. It's a bunch of stakes in the ground at a junction within a mile or two of every home.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                probably more like 10-20 miles, but this anon is right, at least in CA.it might be "from provider" but that doesn't mean it's not a stake in the ground somewhere

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                probably more like 10-20 miles, but this anon is right, at least in CA.it might be "from provider" but that doesn't mean it's not a stake in the ground somewhere

                That's all you need. If the neutral/grounded leg originate at the transformer and come to your house that's what the euro is complaining about. We use the same number or wires and don't get it because we make a center tap in US transformers and ground that. In euro they ground one side of a 240 coil.

                In the US if your neutral goes open or high resistance then your ground and neutral are both fricked.

                In Europe they would still have a ground conductor back to their serving transformer. Assuming that wasn't also damaged in whatever freak condition opened up the neutral in the first place.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Because the ground is a shitty conductor no matter what you do
                So there is zero danger from standing under a power line and touching it with a metal pole because your feet are on a "shitty conductor"?

                Please anon, go try and report back.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Yes exactly. the ground is such a shitty conductor that standing a few feet away from a high voltage ground fault and touching it will kill you. If the ground was a better conductor than you then it wouldn't put any current through you.

                https://i.imgur.com/onY9ZwY.jpg

                25 ohm is spec in the US. This other guy talking about other planets and lakes and shit is fricking crazy wtf. I hope yall are only trolling each other because it's too dumb for me to read.

                Of course one point of ground (dirt) voltage reference is different from another and another. Somenplace in Kansas that's about to get struck by lightning and another place next to a lake in Michigan and a desert in Nevada all have the same voltage and resistance to ground? Wtf

                See the person on the left, step voltage.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Yes exactly. the ground is such a shitty conductor that standing a few feet away from a high voltage ground fault and touching it will kill you.
                Kill you...because you're standing on the ground, and it conducts that fault through your feet. If you were floating in the air touching an HV line or being near a fault would be perfectly safe.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                It can kill you if you take a large step. It will go up one leg and down the other because your meaty flesh is 10x better conductor than the ground.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Being shocked up one leg and down the other never killed anyone, just toasted their balls or made them paraplegic maybe.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Aaaaugh! My balls are on fire! I can't feel my legs! Dominic you rat! You weren't using the fuse puller to pull the fuse you were putting it back in! You were giving me the ol spicy crotch! How could you give your own mate the spicy crotch! I'll never walk again Dominic!

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                in a desert maybe, or somewhere without any water or sewer infra whatsoever. And bodies being a good conductor (they are!) doesn't make ground a bad one - just not as good as bodies. If ground were insulating the ground fault would not happen in the first place. Also there'd be no lightning.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                t. Repairing a power line will kill you because you're near high voltage

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                > It needs to be bonded to the ground wire provided by your provider.
                t. don't have a provider and run a waterwheel genny on my property. So should I ground to the wood, the coils, or what?

                Nope, I ground to the ground (or the water, that seems easier)

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                How do you think the provider is grounding on their side, if the Earth doesn't work?

                Spoiler: it's a long electrode,typically in a lake or ocean like the anon you're arguing with.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        They’re not literally plugged into the ground, “ground” in electricity is a fancy word for “any conductive part of the system that electricity shouldn’t be in”. When something goes to ground, the electricity doesn’t just magically disappear into the earth, it goes back to the source supplying it and trips a breaker or blows a fuse. If you don’t bond everything to ground properly (that is, all the way back to your neutral source), you could electrify something you didn’t mean to - which can kill someone

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          Uhh what? Ground means a sink for current, held at zero voltage so it can always accept current. Places voltage shouldn't be are CONNECTED to ground, so that through you is always a less favorable path for the electricity. In many cases ground IS in fact connected to a copper Spike driven into the ground and bridged to copper plumbing when applicable. Sometimes ground is also provided with the service hook up. If something shorts to ground, the current draw on the SUPPLY side, not the returning current, trips the breaker. Not sure if you learned how electricity works from Grandpa swearing while he shocked himself but what you were saying sure ain't it.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            >the current draw on the SUPPLY side, not the returning current, trips the breaker.
            How is the current different on one side of the circuit? Asking for a friend.

            • 1 year ago
              Anonymous

              He's not wrong, a fault from supply to somewhere else (lake, etc) will still trip the breaker even if there's no current on the ground conductor/side.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >He's not wrong, a fault from supply to somewhere else (lake, etc) will still trip the breaker even if there's no current on the ground conductor/side.
                So how long do these electrons visit the lake before returning to the source? And do scientists know about your vacationing electron theory?

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                I'm not sure what the confusion here is. Electrons (remember this is ac) push and pull along the hot lines from powerplant. A low conductivity path to zero volts - regardless of whether or not this current makes it back to the powerplant - will trip a breaker because it's on the supply side. The electrons (and remember, they aren't really doing the pushing, the field is) go back and forth, back and forth not in a big loop. Any suitably large dissipating conductor on the other end would allow this push-pull because it just needs capacity, not return.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >current makes it back to the powerplant
                You mean transformer
                If there was a solid electrical connection from the power plant to the house, the outlet would be powered by tens of thousands of volts. Transformers work using expanding and contracting magnetic fields, not with direct electrical connectivity.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Yes sorry, this is totally correct. I am using the term powerplant but I really mean "lines as they're coming into the house". That was dumb my b

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >lines as they're coming into the house
                And to complete the circuit, current goes back to the source rather than taking a visit to the lake. That was my point.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                I think we're talking about different situations?

                I imagine a regular home circuit with a breaker on either the supply hot, OR the ground. Say this circuit got cut, and supply shorted to some large conductor or capacitive load - a shitload of water or the frame of a building, etc. Not speaking realistically here, just to setup the problem.

                If this happened, I'd contend high current would pass from the supply line, through the panel, to the broken wire, then into the large conductor - at the very least, until it achieves adequate charge to lose its potential sink (and repeat at 60hz). When this happens, I believe a breaker on the supply side (between transformer and broken hot wire) could trip due to overcurrent, BUT a breaker on the ground side (uninsulated copper back to transformer/supply/etc) would not.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Check your math. It seems your hypothetical circuit has a different amount of current at each end.
                Also, a capacitor is two conductive materials separated by a non conductive material. A lake doesn't have this kind of structure.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                this is like comparing an antenna to a circuit. I am speaking in terms of charge. Instantly connecting a large, insulated conductor of arbitrary charge to an AC voltage *will* put current on that connection, at least briefly, until equilibrium is reached. I don't think there is any requirement for KCL while charge is accumulating or dissipating within the circuit. I think a suitably large unipolar antenna at RF frequencies would do the same.

                Again, I'm making a lot of bad word-problem assumptions - that the circuit breaker can trip on an instantaneous spike, that my new current sink mass is huge and insulated, etc. But aside from that I don't think my situation is unfeasible given your formulation of the problem either, just keeping in mind that it requires consideration at the charge level rather than C-V

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                How many amps of current go through the air as a frequency? Again, asking for a friend.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >current go through the air as a frequency
                is this a cargo cult sentence

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >is this a cargo cult sentence
                Just pointing out that:

                this is like comparing an antenna to a circuit. I am speaking in terms of charge. Instantly connecting a large, insulated conductor of arbitrary charge to an AC voltage *will* put current on that connection, at least briefly, until equilibrium is reached. I don't think there is any requirement for KCL while charge is accumulating or dissipating within the circuit. I think a suitably large unipolar antenna at RF frequencies would do the same.

                Again, I'm making a lot of bad word-problem assumptions - that the circuit breaker can trip on an instantaneous spike, that my new current sink mass is huge and insulated, etc. But aside from that I don't think my situation is unfeasible given your formulation of the problem either, just keeping in mind that it requires consideration at the charge level rather than C-V

                >a suitably large unipolar antenna at RF frequencies
                has nothing to do with how much current it takes to trip a breaker.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >has nothing to do with how much current it takes to trip a breaker.
                ah, i agree, sorry - just that it could be smaller than a skyscraper or lake in this case, at higher f.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Say this circuit got cut
                I mean cut INSIDE the house
                > (uninsulated copper back to transformer/supply/etc) would not.
                and I believe this would be true even if the ground/earth were a stake right at OP's home. Unless it were connected to the new large conductor/sink, of course.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >So how long do these electrons visit the lake before returning to the source?

                about c/60hz in the USA.

            • 1 year ago
              Anonymous

              put one finger in an outlet, and the other on your coax/phone cable

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >put one finger in an outlet, and the other on your coax/phone cable
                You realize both are bonded to the grounding electrode system, right? You are completing a circuit which means the electrons are going back to the source. Still no electrons going on a vacation at the lake.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >You realize both are bonded to the grounding electrode system, right?
                if my coax's conductor were bonded to ground at any point, it would not be carrying signal, and could be replaced with a rod?

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >if my coax's conductor were bonded to ground at any point, it would not be carrying signal, and could be replaced with a rod?
                Try again. I only understand languages that make sense.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                it seems you really like arguing the details of a word problem while totally ignoring the intent.

                Okay, no lake and no coax. I have a long superconductor which goes to the moon, which is only 1 mile away, made of copper, and has until-now been totally insulated -- at arbitrary charge, maybe zero. I put that silly-ass unrealistic conductor in one hand, and a 120VAC hot wire in the other -- who cares where it comes from, it's oscillating 120V (or even DC).

                When I complete this circuit, is there any current between my home panel's uninstalled ground rail and my (or my utility's) to-spec ground spike? I think the answer is no, even as charge movesfrom my home, its supply, etc to/from the mass until it too is at 120VAC (tripping a hypothetical nano-sentitive supply side breaker, but not a ground-side one).

                Sorry if it sounds like I'm arguing, I am actually interested in the physics here. I'm guessing there are other more realistic situations which could cause the same thing to happen (fault causing current spike on hot, but not Earth, at the panel)

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >at arbitrary charge, maybe zero
                What gives it a reference to zero? Zero implies it is bonded.
                >When I complete this circuit
                which means a loop. It just seems like you are describing a straight line instead of a loop.

            • 1 year ago
              Anonymous

              Think of voltage as electron pressure that lessens as dissipation of the pressure (power usage) increases.

              >He's not wrong, a fault from supply to somewhere else (lake, etc) will still trip the breaker even if there's no current on the ground conductor/side.
              So how long do these electrons visit the lake before returning to the source? And do scientists know about your vacationing electron theory?

              Those electrons don't have to go where they came from for current to exist, that rule applies to batteries that rely on that input voltage to sustain the chemistry that provides power. There just has to be a difference in voltage in a mains system. The 60hz signal your house experiences is so fricking inertial (wrong technical term) due to the fact that it is generated by turbines the size of your house, that your electron feedback is almost irrelevant to the supply system. Add to that the fact that in an AC system the electrons basically will wiggle back and forth somewhere between few yards to a centimeter and you realize that it's basically a wiggling rope and you are stealing energy from it with a ratcheting mechanism anytime you use a DC electrical device.

              >So how long do these electrons visit the lake before returning to the source?

              about c/60hz in the USA.

              Electrons do not have to return to the source unless it's a fricking CHEMICAL battery.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Inertial (wrong technical term)
                I'm pretty sure the right term is capacitive (or inductive), which is again the point of physicist-anon's silly moon ground - putting a damper on that electron pressure.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Electrons do not have to return to the source unless it's a fricking CHEMICAL battery.
                You are describing nuclear reactions, not alternating current. You are an idiot. Generating electricity does not alter the number of electrons in the outer valence shell. Every time an electron is stripped from an atom, it is simultaneously replaced by another electron returning to the source. To the source. The source. Source. Also, source. Yes, source. Back to source. A thousand times, source. An electron in the loop of current returns to the source. Electrical reaction. Not nuclear reaction.
                If we could just use a few volts to shift around the number of electrons of an atom, we would have as much heavy water as we could possibly want. But the electron is always replaced. There is always a complete circuit.
                If there isn't a complete circuit, you can rely on I in the formula P=IxE to remain zero because electrons aren't moving. Sure, voltage is present but no current. This means no power. That's why your light switch can shut off power usage. Since turning off a light switch turns off a light instead of creating new radioactive isotopes in your walls, you really need to rethink your position.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                I don't think the anon you're quoting is contending that electrons in a generator driven circuit can freely be added or subtracted at the powerplant - just that it doesn't need to be the SAME electron, which is what the dumbass anon earlier is arguing; some electron must return via a lake or insulator to the powerplant, which is simply not true. The "lost" electron doesn't need to be replaced by "itself", all electrons are the same and indeed there's no meaning to the term "itself" as the outer shells are exchanging electrons when conducting happens, some are replaced each time. As long as the charge is equalized from SOMEWHERE, and that can even be a capacitive "source", an electron doesn't need to (and won't) make this entire loop like anon demands.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >If we could just use a few volts to shift around the number of electrons of an atom, we would have as much heavy water as we could possibly want.
                anon here thinks Heavy water is heavy because it has more *electrons*?

                Those electrons sure are ripe with mass and neutron crosssection, anon.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >If we could just use a few volts to shift around the number of electrons of an atom
                This is exactly what happens when a battery is charged. You are describing everyday electrochemical (ionic), not nuclear, reactions. Even in a capacitor, electrons are "shifted around" by a "few volts" - added to one side and "subtracted" from the other, in net.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          Thats only the case in your moronic yank system. In civilized countries it actually is literally dissipating current into the ground.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          >They’re not literally plugged into the ground,
          jumping in to point out most homes in USA indeed have Earths "literally plugged into the ground" on the wall outside, in addition to any mains connection.rural homes and ones with septic tanks especially but it is common everywhere. and even if not theres defenetely spikes at the nearest juction box or substation.not only at the source gennies

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            are you conflating neutral and Earth? When we speak of ground here -- the copper insulated wire in op's picture, we are talking about Earth, the safety connection, not the 0V return path our appliances use to sink current back to ConEd.

            this anon is right -- there is no long conductor between homes and the grid which carries zero current except in a fault.the "return" path you're talking about is literally the planet.yes its a crappy conductor but with that much volume and mass its meaningless

  2. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Magic space Black folk. That's how it works. That's why it robs you and rapes your white daughters. Deals drugs. Gang shootings
    It's magic space Black folk bro

  3. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    a lot of people are confused by the topic, so allow me to explain it. in america, we use a grounded system for our transmission and distribution of electricity. the power company literally drives a 8-10ft copper ground rod into the ground, and attaches a wire from it to the neutral on the transformer. this gives stray currents a path back to source.
    for wiring in a building, we use equipment grounding conductors to clear ground faults. a ground fault is when a metal part (such as a metal chassis or conduit or water pipe etc) is energized. the equipment grounding conductor provides a low resistance path back to the panel, and allows very high amperage to flow through the circuit breaker, which induces a very strong magnetic field, causing it to trip, thus cutting the power to the metal, which is no longer a threat to personnel.
    in your picture, you have a series circuit. the white wire is not a neutral as in a 120v circuit, but rather an ungrounded conductor connected to one leg of your service. by code, it is supposed to be reidentified, but that wasnt common practice until recently and inspectors may choose not to enforce it.
    you have 2 equipment grounding conductors because one leads back to the panel to clear fault paths, and one comes from the well pump so that if there is a fault with it, it can also be cleared.

  4. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    A lot of replies in this thread have no idea what they're talking about, and the entire conversation about "ground" is a side-topic at best.

    Your 2 current-carrying conductors are both oscillating 120v sine wave. Both of these waves "center" around what your powerplant/home considers "zero volts" - which is also the potential of your system's ground, by design. However, the two waves are 1/120sec or 180° out of phase with *each other*, so one is at +110v at the same time the other is at -110. This makes their difference measured on a multimeter, 220.

    Why are the colors confusing? Your pump/switch manufacturer or electrician has used single-phase theee-wire cable for a phase-to-phase 240V installation, probably to save money. So the "neutral" wire in the jacket isn't actually neutral... current flows back and forth between the two insulated wires like a swing or seesaw. Ideally it won't travel to the ground at all - if it does, your circuit breaker or GFCI will probably trip.

    The reason the ground is connected to the box body like that instead of straight thru is to protect you in case one of the hot wires becomes frayed/pulled and makes contact with the metal box... This would give it 120V relative to your floor and the other grounded metals in your pump and room, making a potential shock hazard. With the ground wire connected there, that voltage could run along the copper wire to powerplant ground, instead of your body.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      > that voltage could run
      *current

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      A good way to check this would be looking at the specs label on your pump's body, or googling its model #. I'd bet money it's a 240V pump, not a 120V one, so if your system were as you described it (~120V black, 0V white, 0V-ish copper) there would be NO way to deliver enough voltage to spin the pump.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      He's almost there but he is still thinks 240v is multiple phases instead of a split phase

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        No, this would put 208v on his meter between conductors instead of 220-240. They are fully balanced, not 60° out. See pic attached.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          It's a single phase that's split. It's not two phases

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            this is meaningless. Regardless of how it is supplied, those lines are 1: 120V sine waves, 2: not in sync. That is TWO PHASES of AC power, regardless of their delta t or where they come from.

            • 1 year ago
              Anonymous

              You're the one that posted a 3 phase transformer when that's not the way it is, and you started some.dumb shit about ground

              Some hypothetical super ground. You need like 5 ground rods for that shit man.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                does any of this imply two equal-amplitude sine waves with a delay between them is not "two phases"

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >two phases
                I think the issue with calling anything two phases is that a two phase system exists. They are 90 degrees out of phase which also makes them 270 degrees out of phase. It's a useless system, but it does technically exist.
                Unfortunately, a split phase system is often called two phase by people not knowing any better. If it's a useful electrical power supply, it's probably not a two phase system. If it uses two of the phases on a three phase system, it's called single phase. It makes sense because you can do it three times but not have a six phase system. It's one third of a three phase system.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >only sine waves exactly 90 degrees apart are two phases
                >if my delta slips by one degree, it's magically one wave now

                This kind of rote-learned times-tables garbage would get you DP'd in the ass over at PrepHole. Mathematics comes first, then science, then engineering, then trades on top; engineering or trades do not get to change the math, sorry.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >if my delta slips by one degree, it's magically one wave now
                >Mathematics comes first
                I like to use mathematical processes like addition and subtraction. Apparently it's waaaay out of your league. Delta implies 3 phase, which is 120 degrees out of phase with other phases. A two phase system is 90 degrees. The difference between 120 degrees and 90 degrees is not actually one degree, check your math.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Delta implies 3 phase
                biggest kek.

                what's your name for the delay between two sine waves, anon. is it something other than "phase"? If so, you didn't qualify for a GED.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Looks

                >Delta implies 3 phase, which is 120 degrees out of phase with other phases. A two phase system is 90 degrees.

                Literally all of this is made up. Any delay between waves is phase. A two phase system is two sines, so literally anything but 0/360 degrees apart.

                like

                >I like to use mathematical processes like addition and subtraction.
                Well, keep passing those classes and eventually you'll get trigonometry and understand waves.

                someone

                > Delta implies 3 phase

                >The difference between 120 degrees and 90 degrees is not actually one degree, check your math.

                lol which is it

                needs

                >. A two phase system is 90 degrees.

                In the early 20th century? Today's two phase installations are almost always split π apart. That's why N American appliances expect 240V, not 208 or 180 as you'd get from 60 or 90 degree phase delay.

                This is also the case for any modern naval shipboard/submarine generator, or other isolated system like a space station. I wouldn't know anything about that, though...

                attention

                Well that was anticlimactic.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >samegayging in PrepHole

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >samegayging in PrepHole

                guess again. or by all means, keep climbing up your own ass.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Delta implies 3 phase, which is 120 degrees out of phase with other phases. A two phase system is 90 degrees.

                Literally all of this is made up. Any delay between waves is phase. A two phase system is two sines, so literally anything but 0/360 degrees apart.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >I like to use mathematical processes like addition and subtraction.
                Well, keep passing those classes and eventually you'll get trigonometry and understand waves.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                > Delta implies 3 phase

                >The difference between 120 degrees and 90 degrees is not actually one degree, check your math.

                lol which is it

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >. A two phase system is 90 degrees.

                In the early 20th century? Today's two phase installations are almost always split π apart. That's why N American appliances expect 240V, not 208 or 180 as you'd get from 60 or 90 degree phase delay.

                This is also the case for any modern naval shipboard/submarine generator, or other isolated system like a space station. I wouldn't know anything about that, though...

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Delta implies 3
                how many subscripts you see in this definition of delta?
                >The difference between 120 degrees and 90 degrees
                you don't believe this difference exists. you mysteriously need a third operand to subtract two integers and get a difference, because Delta implies 3.
                >Mathematics comes first
                I don't think it arrived at your place at all. You might want to ask for a refund.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                go to account status on your utility's website or app or whatever, look at new plans. You could buy "one" (120v outlets only) or splurge a little for "two" (120v and 240v appliance outlets) depending on your property and needs. I guarantee they won't be called "zero" and "one" phase service, respectively.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                166 ohm is the resistance to ground norm in EU.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >166 ohm
                so a voltage divider.
                thats why we don't use that "modern" "system".

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                You havent innovated since Edison, so no surprise there.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                25 ohm is spec in the US. This other guy talking about other planets and lakes and shit is fricking crazy wtf. I hope yall are only trolling each other because it's too dumb for me to read.

                Of course one point of ground (dirt) voltage reference is different from another and another. Somenplace in Kansas that's about to get struck by lightning and another place next to a lake in Michigan and a desert in Nevada all have the same voltage and resistance to ground? Wtf

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >This other guy talking about other planets and lakes and shit
                is saying the same thing you are when you say
                >Of course one point of ground (dirt) voltage reference is different from another and another. Somenplace in Kansas that's about to get struck by lightning and another place next to a lake in Michigan and a desert in Nevada all have the same voltage and resistance to ground? Wtf
                Because whole point of the planet or lake is that it's at a different potential. Like a faraway earth or ground from another utility.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >25 ohm
                is definitely more than you'd get from an electrode in a large lake, or average home septic tank. The real ironic part is you're agreeing with each other. His big conductor is an ideal sink, by design it's zero ohms to a functionally infinite "ground", he even says "superconductor".

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Amd 166 or 25 ohm to ground, both are fricking awful. Neither is gonna trip a low voltage circuit breaker. Even if you dead short hot to a nice 25ohm ground rod, that will just run 5 or 10 amps through it all day and night. And nothing is gonna trip.

                Euro anon is right, having another ground from your provider is safer. It's still a rare fault. You may as well argue 'well what if your ground and neutral conductors BOTH failed what about that huh, then you'd still get smacked with 120v'

                The ground circuit is a fabrication in the US. It is created in our panel. The ground resistance between our panel's primary ground electrode (PGE) and the one at the transformer 200 ft away is awful. 25ohms ain't doing shit to a low voltafe faut if everything fails. Euro's 166ohm is doing even less.

                Here's an experiment to see how awful literal tera/earth is . Get an extension cord and plug it in. Get a nice footnlong screwdriver and shove it into the dirt in your yard. Check resistance between the ground on your cord and the screwdriver. I predict 70k ohm, 1k to 500k ohm is totally normal depending on soil conditions.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Amd 166 or 25 ohm to ground, both are fricking awful. Neither is gonna trip a low voltage circuit breaker. Even if you dead short hot to a nice 25ohm ground rod, that will just run 5 or 10 amps through it all day and night. And nothing is gonna trip.

                Only tradesman Euro anon is taklking about an IRL nonideal breaker. Midwest one says "does current pass through hot but not ground when this fault happens between these dots" and that is 100% correct, which is what OP and his replies care about. Even if his neutral is connected to earth in the 'supply' cloud like other anon wants, which it usually is for lightning strikes on hv lines

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Midwest one says "does current pass through hot but not ground
                *Hot and ground wire at the home's panel, where the breakers are. Not measured at the utility, or through the planet.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Nothing significant ever goes to ground unless there's a major fault in the neutral/earth from the provider. It's always hot to neutral or balanced between the two hots.

                Even if there is a major fault, it is like i said maxed our at 5 or 10 amps.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                We agree, b/c it is a hypothetical dumb fault condition, not an installation to code at equalibrium. Obviously it's a dumb thing to have possibly happen IRL, but it demonstrates the same point you make that the electrons don't have to "return" themselves that way unless the source is ionic

  5. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    >which means a loop. It just seems like you are describing a straight line instead of a loop.
    yes, sorry - when i make this connection

    >What gives it a reference to zero?
    it has an equal number of positive and negative charges or charge carriers? Voltage requires a reference to be meaningful, but charge does not. Fixed electrostatic charge could influence a mass' behavior in a magnetic or electric field without ever exchanging current.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      >yes, sorry - when i make this connection
      Describe the return connection

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        there isn't one, that's the entire point.

        In one hand i have a huge insulated conductor, in the other hand I have copper at 120VAC from my home's panel. For the sake of ease, my huge conductor has a bunch of spare or missing electrons (it makes my hair stand up), but it doesn't have to (because my supply wire is at 1/60sec). Either way, charge difference between mass and supply wire puts current on the connection until equilibrium is reached...but no current on a hypothetical breaker on the ground side (uninsulated copper throughout the home, connected to suitable gnd/earth thru the panel)

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          >there isn't one, that's the entire point.
          Then just describe it as a hot leading to a light switch with the switch turned off. No need to talk about the moon or lakes.
          No, a light switch turned off should not normally trip a breaker. Nor should it use a meaningful amount of energy.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            >Then just describe it as a hot leading to a light switch with the switch turned off.
            this totally ignores all the meaningful parts of the problem. It sounds like you are trying to approach this physics problem as if voltage and current were fundamental, rather than emergent, phemomena, using idealized lumped elements which conform to this model.

            >No, a light switch turned off should not normally trip a breaker. Nor should it use a meaningful amount of energy.
            Only you care about "normally" or "meaningful amount" here.

            • 1 year ago
              Anonymous

              >this totally ignores all the meaningful parts of the problem.
              Are you pretending electrons attach in greater numbers to atoms in our walls?
              No, the power in your walls is not creating radioactive isotopes.
              The number of electrons leaving the source is the number of electrons entering the source.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >The number of electrons leaving the source is oh God, no one is disputing this.

                A breaker on the ground side of my home's panel does not have anything to do with "the source." There are many odd ways, including the ones I've demonstrated here in undergrad-brain for you, where current in and out of the plant (or transformer, or etc - not my home's panel) is conserved, without a bit of it flowing along the ground path through my that panel. Even just "bridge the hot wire inside the home to the service ground, bypassing the panel" is enough, if you don't like hypotheticals.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Even just "bridge the hot wire inside the home to the service ground, bypassing the panel"
                That's called a bolted fault. Those are scary. It just keeps going until either the city turns off the power or the connection is blown apart by the amount of energy going through the circuit. It's incredibly loud.
                >where current in and out of the plant (or transformer, or etc - not my home's panel) is conserved
                Conserved? Is this going back to pretending a lake is a capacitor? I hope not, that isn't how capacitors work.
                Maybe you don't know what you mean by conserved, because I sure don't know what you mean by conserved.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >It just keeps going until either the city turns off the power or the connection is blown apart by the amount of energy going through the circuit.
                or a circuit breaker in my home's panel -- on the SUPPLY side -- trips right away. One on the ground side doesn't, though.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >or a circuit breaker in my home's panel

                >The number of electrons leaving the source is oh God, no one is disputing this.

                A breaker on the ground side of my home's panel does not have anything to do with "the source." There are many odd ways, including the ones I've demonstrated here in undergrad-brain for you, where current in and out of the plant (or transformer, or etc - not my home's panel) is conserved, without a bit of it flowing along the ground path through my that panel. Even just "bridge the hot wire inside the home to the service ground, bypassing the panel" is enough, if you don't like hypotheticals.

                >bypassing the panel
                Thank you for your contribution but you didn't seem to read before posting.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                let's stop feeding the troll, this is too obvious

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >let's stop feeding the troll, this is too obvious
                I'm waiting for him to reveal he's a project manager because not even a first year apprentice is this level of dumb. Understanding current in a series circuit is like basic DC comprehension. Confusing radio frequency with coulombs? Icing on the cake.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Thank you for your contribution but you didn't seem to read before posting.
                okay let's make it super easy for the undergrad.

                I connect the two marked nodes (big dots). You claim that either:
                1: neither breaker A nor B will trip, and the city will burn down or some shit, or
                2: both A and B will trip because "it doesn't matter if the breaker is on the hot or ground side"

                Neither is true. A trips, B does not. When the marked nodes are bridged, there is no new current on breaker B. But current does flow at A -- otherwise there'd be no risk of the bolted fault.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                here, sorry

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                Are you intentionally drawing an ungrounded system? The grounded conductor doesn't seem to have any connection to the grounding conductor in your picture.
                If this is on purpose, then the added connection between those two dots changes it from ungrounded to a grounded system and your hot and neutral are mislabeled. The breaker labeled A should go on the wire marked neutral (since it's the only ungrounded conductor) and the breaker on the ground side is a mystery because I've never seen someone try to make the grounding electrode system fail on purpose.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                are you conflating neutral and Earth? When we speak of ground here -- the copper insulated wire in op's picture, we are talking about Earth, the safety connection, not the 0V return path our appliances use to sink current back to ConEd.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >insulated
                uninsulated*

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >Are you intentionally drawing an ungrounded system?
                I'm not sure why this is necessary, the example would work fine in a two-wire system with Hot and Neutral only. Bridging Hot to a spike in the earth would absolutely trip A. Any other wires running to/from the home would not see a change in current, only A.

              • 1 year ago
                Anonymous

                >the breaker on the ground side is a mystery
                aren't you the one who wanted this breaker in the first place

                >the current draw on the SUPPLY side, not the returning current, trips the breaker.
                How is the current different on one side of the circuit? Asking for a friend.

                as opposed to anon's position A? Claiming it was equivalent to A because the current draw on black and uninsulated wire at the panel is the same?

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