How do we feel about home batteries? Posted on March 5, 2023 by PrepHole Contributor How do we feel about home batteries?
When EVs become commonplace and the prices come down, home batteries are going to be interesting.
Until then its not worth the huge premium
Batteries will never be cheap. The idea is that you'll have no choice but use them at some point.
Be it taxation or divestment in fossil fuels.
>Batteries will never be cheap.
Economy of scale exists no matter what good you are talking about.
>Economy of scale exists no matter what good you are talking about.
yeah, in a world where the supply of cheap energy (oil) is practically endless. we're no longer in that world.
>we're no longer in that world.
>t. all resources are infinite and nothing will ever change
I would consider $0.15/Wh pretty fucking cheap, and that's where LFP is. NMC can be under $0.1/Wh.
>but muh replacement every 5 years
LFP for home solar can reasonably last 30 years, some manufacturers offer 20 years warranty on LFP.
You can charge your electric car from $300 of solar panels (~1kWp) plus a $300 inverter plus maybe $700 of buffer batteries, anything beyond that is convenience tax and retard tax and commiefornia tax.
Solar for charging cars without a battery backup is useless for most people because they'll be away at work when it's generating most of its power.
>he's too poor to just have two cars and drive them alternately
You can usually get some kind of virtual battery from the grid, which basically just gives you discounted electricity. I've even seen services where your "stored" electricity can be used on commercial charger networks. Of course it's not totally free, just a big discount, in the ballpark of 50%.
Batteries aren't necessarily more economical than this big discount, especially commercial batteries that cost $1/Wh.
I'm getting real tired of people mistaking this accounting trick for technically feasible energy production and distribution. Some garden gnome telling them it works that way is not going to keep their lights on as the same garden gnome turns off one thermal base load plant after the other.
Nobody but extreme retards think that this is somehow actually storing energy, it's an accounting trick sold as an accounting trick. It's offered in places where it's feasible, because the daytime demand for electricity is high.
>same garden gnome turns off one thermal base load plant after the other.
Obviously this is a totally grid-dependent solution and nobody's claiming otherwise, the real garden gnomery is in on-grid battery systems, which, on top of being extremely expensive, still don't keep your lights on for even just a second if the grid cuts out. Those systems, loads of sellers and manufacturers sell them with misleading advertising.
>yeah it can work in a power outage you just need another $3000 worth of equipment installed and you're limited to 5% of the rated output of the inverter and it's technically not ups because the switching time is 30 seconds but it can totally do it
i mean how much battery do you need? is 5k in batteries to much for you?
>i mean how much battery do you need?
AA batteries are fine.
Maybe of they figure out sodium ion batteries for home and they can make them for cheap. Lithium is lightweight, but doesn't really matter for static batteries in most cases.
Mostly a waste of money in the long run. Can do the same thing for less using lead acid deep cycle batteries and a good inverter.
If this is only for power outages just buy a used APC UPS and make your own Lithium Ion battery pack (YouTube is full of videos on this).
The only place this makes sense is in an off-grid cabin where you are only going to use the system sparaticaly.
I always looked at residential boilers and thought, "imagine if something in the house was this explosive, but also was impossible to put out, like, REALLY burned for weeks after the initial blast?"
And then I thought, "hm, I wish it was also made of a REALLY exotic material which there are only limited quantities of, inb4 muh oceans, and I could just put a hunk of it in my home?"
Lead acid batteries are more repairable, renewable, cheaper, and reliable than lithium globohomo bullshit.
Lead acid batteries are of the Heavens.
Lithium is demonic and evil. The element is not innately evil, but any constructions made with man's hands of it are.
If they get more cheap for the occasional blackout or for a extremely low load they will be worth it.
Lithium iron phosphate batteries are great, cheap, safe, high performance, and have good ROI on solar. Lithium iron phosphate packaged into powerwalls and powerwall knockoffs is severely overpriced, often over 3x the price of the raw batteries, has garbage ROI, but still has good lifetime. Lithium nickel, ie. Tesla powerwall, is high performance, but expensive, relatively unsafe, has no ROI unless you pay over $.40+ per kWh, lifetime is maybe 10-15 years at best. Lead acid is expensive, has no ROI, crap performance, all around shit.
>Lead acid is expensive, has no ROI, crap performance, all around shit.
If you operate them properly, lead-acid lifetimes are functionally infinite.
The plastic they're made of starts to degrade after 30 years, and you need to be a chemist to keep them going.
barefoot pakistani would like a word with you
Lead acid batteries work on high school level chemistry. Not all of us flunked out of school, retard. The ancient egyptians had a type of lead acid battery 3000 years before christ.
And you can encase them in things other than plastic you know. Any kind of soft metal with a wooden case for example.
What does "operate them properly" mean? The lead acid batteries I know have, at best, 1000 cycle life, that's with the half depth discharge, slow charge/discharge.
Keep the electrolyte level at the right depth and storage and operation at the proper temperature.
You can beat on them pretty hard in charge precisely to avoid sulfation.
That's not going to give you infinite lifetime, that's just enough to get the nominal cycle life.
This. I understand that lithium iron phosphate has a range disadvantage vs LiPo, but it's odd that they haven't seen more regulatory adoption in EVs due to the better safety features (not exploding).
I think it's mostly due to manufacturing scaling, there's just not enough factories making LFP to fill the demand for EV. Also the fast charging meme isn't very good for LFP. But it's slowly happening, even Tesla is planning to use LFP in the near future, some BYD shitboxes already have LFP. Also seen LFP retrofits for older vehicles like Leafs.
>pay over $.40+ per kWh
That would be pretty much all of Europe.
You Americans dont know how lucky you are with your energy prices.
Just build a sodium-sulfur battery bro
What's the application for home batteries?
Is it just for emergency power in the event of a grid outage?
Or is it surplus storage for homes with solar/wind electricity generation?
That question should help determine the best battery for the job, right? One is charge and store, and the other is continually charging and discharging.
Not interested in those housefires waiting to happen. SLA is a much safer chemistry to use in a home.
Large home batteries are an interesing example of distributed energy resources (DERs) DERs refer to small-scale, modular power generation technologies that can be located close to the point of use, such as homes, businesses, and institutions. Examples of DERs include solar panels, wind turbines, fuel cells, microturbines, and energy storage systems like batteries.
The primary advantage of DERs is that they can provide localized energy services, which can be more efficient, reliable, and cost-effective than centralized energy systems. For example, if a home or business has a solar panel installed on its roof, it can generate electricity on-site and reduce its dependence on the grid. This can help lower energy costs, increase resilience in the face of power outages, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
DERs can also help to increase the flexibility and reliability of the electricity grid. By providing power at the point of use, DERs can reduce the need for large-scale transmission and distribution infrastructure. This can improve grid resilience by reducing the likelihood of widespread power outages and enabling faster restoration of service when outages do occur.
Overall, DERs are an important part of the transition to a more decentralized and sustainable energy system. As renewable energy technologies continue to improve and costs continue to decline, we can expect to see greater adoption of DERs in the coming years.
Is this an AI post? Other examples of DERs include diesel generators lol.
I remember a coworker telling me "it's so awesome, I have an electric car and I've been able to charge it this past month entirely from solar from my roof!"
$50,000 of solar panels, I'm sure he'll get that return on investment in no time.
I just have a generator (gasoline) that powers the whole house (including well pump) in case of emergency. Relying on solar for emergency power in a part of the country that gets blizzards doesn't seem wise.
Yes, a diesel generator can be considered a type of distributed energy resource (DER) since it is a small-scale power generation technology that can be located close to the point of use. Diesel generators can be used to provide backup power in the event of a power outage, or they can be used as the primary source of power for off-grid locations.
However, it is worth noting that diesel generators have some significant drawbacks compared to other DER technologies. Diesel generators are not a renewable energy source and emit pollutants, including carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxides, and particulate matter, which can harm the environment and human health. In contrast, renewable energy sources like solar panels and wind turbines are emissions-free and do not produce harmful pollutants.
Moreover, diesel generators can be less cost-effective than other DER technologies, especially as renewable energy costs continue to decline. They require ongoing maintenance and fuel costs, which can add up over time. In contrast, renewable energy systems have no fuel costs and require minimal maintenance once installed.
Overall, while diesel generators can technically be considered a DER, they are not the most sustainable or cost-effective option compared to other DER technologies, especially as the cost of renewable energy continues to decline.
>ChatGPT has entered the thread.
Wish ChatGPT had an anime girl personality. Character.ai can do it, but always fucks up sooner or later.
What kind of gay uses corporate talk like "DER"?
What insane country do you live in that would run you 50K for solar panels? I am in NL and for you to have that kind of cost you would have to place at least 70 panels. Which at the current average of 400 WP would net you 28000 watts or about 120 VA. The fuck are you running if thats not getting a massive ROI from the subsidies on delivering back to the power company alone? At 7 cents per kWh the power xompany pays you, and the average consumption at ~30 kWh a day, you overproduce a minimum of 130 kWh a day and would earn 10 euros on subisidies a day while having no energy costs.
GPT pls go
I've been considering tossing some batteries in the basement. This state and county make solar prohibitive and shitty to deal with, I don't want to go that route.
From local power company, peak power is 6x the price of off-peak, so just a home battery running on a schedule to charge off-peak and supplement during the day would make a massive difference to me.
With new rates, next year I'm looking at an average of $250/mo.
I don't know enough about this shit to know where to start. I don't care about battery chemistry, I'll do some garden gnome math and make that decision later.
I think I need a grid-tie charger/inverter that can charge the batteries from A/C/grid power, but I don't know how these things are wired to be able to add power back in.
I know that's what the inverter does, but I'm not sure what's going on here, it can't be like a generator with a transfer switch.
I need to be able to schedule charge and discharge, do I need to size it to power the whole fucking house, or can it provide supplemental power like I assume solar systems can do?
I'd prefer to not try to size it to handle the electric stove and electric dryer, and my heat pump. I'm not trying to offset ALL of my power usage to off-peak hours, as nice as that would be I think I'd be blowing my budget to go that route.
What the fuck am I looking for? Shit I should be reading/watching?
Anyone here done this?
Researching this has been a bitch, 99% of what I find is just ads, ads in blog posts, ads in forum posts, ads within ads within tumblr blogs.
If you don't want off-grid functionality, there's something called "storage inverter", usually used with solar inverters (indirectly). Basically you just put the inverter wherever in your house, you put current clamps on the input power line, then the inverter supplements power from the batteries when it's needed and there is charge. This type shouldn't need to be big enough to handle all your loads, although having comparatively huge inductive loads on the same power net usually isn't recommended, ie. 3kW+ induction motors when your inverter is rated <5kW.
Many chink solar inverters also have this functionality and cost a lot less than the brand-name storage inverters, if you want to keep it as cheap as possible, then those are a good options. Voltronic and EG4 and a bunch of others. 48V LFP server rack batteries are your best choice of battery unless you PrepHole. Watch Will Prowse, he focuses on solar, but many of his inverters support this kind of use.
Big thanks anon, given me plenty to look into.
Only a drooling moron would but that much money into batteries that still need the grid or solar to recharge. You can get a diesel generator for a fraction of the price. Only downside is not virtue signaling to your faggy friends who live in a converted van.
Not convinced a home battery can ever make its money back and I wouldn't trust them in anything other than an isolated stone building that won't burn my house down.
pointless and retarded
just a new fad for gadgety people to play with and be smug about
the money invested into them would be better spent on making your home more efficient
Here is the only battery ill ever need
I grow my own batteries
well if 1-2 days of your work is worth less than 500 maybe, otherwise no. also victron is pain in the ass if you want to do any fun stuff with it
>victron is pain in the ass if you want to do any fun stuff with it
I don't want to do anything funny when dealing with 100s of amps in 24V.
But I cheat, it's for a solar installation. These batteries were cheap, CALB, so not bad, I need to initialize them and then make strings in 8S for 24V
There will be 2 batteries, one string of 100Ah and one of 5x40Ah as well as 3x6 solar panels strings.
Also I want something with no wifi nor bluetooth because I am a boomer. It's difficult but not impossible
by fun I ment some advanced energy control based on hourly pricing and prediction and I just hate all the custom comm protocols that are used in victron equipment.
for 3-4k euro you can get 3kw hybrid solar inverter+5kw battery, how powerfull will be your setup and how much did you pay for it.
>how powerfull will be your setup
Not powerful enough, 12 of the panels will face east but at a very low angle, 6 will face south at about 75° for winter sun
so the peak will be 12 x 270W in summer ? 3Kw
24V x 300Ah = 7200Wh of capacity so 3 hours of the inverter at full capacity, with a depth of discharge of 100%
I'll have to add at least 2 100Ah/24V strings of batteries
>and how much did you pay for it.
I am way over budget but it's less than 4k at this time, I have to buy 2 MPPTs, that will add 1k but I have everything else
>12kwh for 3kw solar
is this offgrid?
if it is not you should really do some calculations before buying more batteries
my objective is to be autonomous yes, at least a bit. Might get a turbine for a small water stream at the back of the property.
Do wonder if it's worth doing batteries when you have variable pricing along the lines of £0.10 off peak, £0.34 peak. You charge offpeak, drain peak.
for home user it is not worth it (at least in europe), the only way to win is to buy when it is cheap for self use.
>t. actually working with this stuff
autonomous != offgrid
dont be stupid and dont put money into something that will never pay off, if you want to spend just put it into efficiency rather than generation
>dont put money into something that will never pay off
I have money, I want to not rely on the services provided by the state.
I have a very efficient house already, solar panels for hot water, very well insulated, now I want my own electricity. The problem is November, December and January, almost no sun, always cloudy or worse a lot of fog and no wind where I am.
Generating is easier from where I start and it's not expensive, batteries are very, very expensive, making the house more efficient is almost impossible or it will be even more expensive
Hydro aside, pellet burner generators are probably your best bet for winter months. Make power and some hot water burning wood pellets, then use the stored to run a heat pump. Solar panels are also really really cheap, so if you have land and money, you can just spam them until you get 2-3kW in cloudy winter days.
I also agree with other anon that Victron is bullshit, you're paying out of the ass for a system you could've had for $800 with a chink all in one inverter, $3000 for a 3-phase high capacity one, including literally every function. Also switch to 48V, nobody uses 24V for anything anymore.
>nobody uses 24V for anything anymore
I found everything I will use in 24V : water booster pump, resistance for the water heater, truck appliances.
I wanted to go to 48V at the beginning because telecommunication equipment is in 48V DC too and I can get some gear
And for Victron, I prefer to pay the price and have a bit of quality, the dimensions of the components and radiators are coherent with the claimed power the things handle, and more important for me, it makes minimal EM noise, I am a radio fag.
Take some from a forklift. Lead acid is very maintainable. You just need lots of space. Tesla powerwalls are just a fire hazard and dont even store enough for a full day of consumption.
Ill revert to the autismo electro prince
A giant flywheel would be better.
I agree, small losses that varry because of the moon is not going to kill my 'battery'.
burry it long thin & horizontal.
Making it thin is the worst possible design you could make for a flywheel. Flywheels should be designed as wide as possible because when you double the width of a flywheel you quadruple its moment of inertia, which means you can store four times as much energy at the same rotation speed. That is why flywheel designs always maximize radius.
This would be feasible if ~~*lithium)) hadn't shut down production of iron nickel batteries, the finest battery technology known to man. The technology has been around for well over a century but it got shut down because it was too effective.
Lithium mining is ironically the most damaging type of mining on earth (to the earth)
We destroy hundreds of square miles of crust to find lithium and IT STILL take carbon footprint to charge the batteries
It's just the illusion of progress, that's all
We get power outages pretty regularly and I've almost pulled the trigger on 2 200Ah lithium batteries for the basement to act in some fashion as a capacitor; a store of energy to be released between running the generator.
>Run generator for HVAC, fridge, freezer, coffee maker, batteries
>Turn off generator
>Have peace and quiet and energy
They're not cheap though. Best I've found is Ampere Time at $700 with tax
At what voltage, 12V? $700 for a 2400Wh battery is a pretty good price. But you need an inverter that can work off-grid as well, that's about $500 at the absolute cheapest for single phase at 5kW rated output. They're usually 24V or 48V as well.
I have a few 20Ah batteries with chargers and inverters for small stuff like TV, internet routers, etc.
I'm not going to run anything crazy off them, at most a 120v coffee maker, sump pump, or fridge. I was hoping the inverter for that wouldn't be as crazy
Well you presumably want something that can also charge them, and inverters that support lithium iron charge profiles usually don't go that cheap, hell even the $500 is for very chink inverters. There are some 2500W inverters that go for around $250, that's the lowest end that can take LiFePo. You can also charge the LFP batteries with car chargers and whatnot, assuming their BMS is set up to handle that, and then use any 12V or 24V inverter that can handle your loads, but it's not ideal.
I have a lithium charger and 2 large solar panels plus a cheap solar to battery manager
I have pic related which has been fine, though is under rated for things like a fridge