What’s the difference between rocket artillery and shell artillery? I’m assuming rockets are more precise and meant for more surgical whereas shells are meant to cause more general damage?
At the most fundamental level, with tube artillery you have to haul around a big gun which limits mobility but ammunition is lighter any you can carry more of it more easily.
At a practical level, it's easier to give rockets larger payloads and longer ranges while it's easier to give guns better rates of fire. Both can be made accurate with modern tech.
howitzers are a big deal in Ukraine, as is the ability to use them without worrying about barrel wear or supplying them with ammunition. Regarding your image, most of those PzH 2000s won't be ready for multiple years, Ukraine is buying them for the future (which is a bit of a headscratcher). They'd really be better served with something more affordable, or at least something that can all of the bridges in the country, something this 60 ton monstrosity can't do
rocket artillery is a good way of having a large amount of ordnance arriving in a short period without having a bunch of guns. It often also has longer range with more boom. More precise - that just depends. You have guided and unguided munitions for both tube and rocket artillery, and launchers like the Grad are famously inaccurate
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Suddenly, artillery is a game changer when in Ukrainian hands. Why aren't you patting Russia on the back for doing the same thing?
it's a game changer for Russia too. With their deficiency wrt to dismounts they wouldn't have made even limited progress after they pivoted away from the north and focused on the Donbas. Nobody calls it a "game changer" for Russia because they started with a lot and still have a lot. With Ukraine it is discussed because of the flow of western weapons into their hands - the impact or lack thereof is just more notable
>Regarding your image, most of those PzH 2000s won't be ready for multiple years, Ukraine is buying them for the future (which is a bit of a headscratcher).
Other countries can send them their old stock and get brand new ones from Rheinmetall for free. It's a good deal for everybody involved.
>most of those PzH 2000s won't be ready for multiple years, Ukraine is buying them for the future (which is a bit of a headscratcher)
my guess is they expect a lull in fighting before it sparks up again like Crimea and the Donbas, the lines will probably stabilize pretty much where they are for a while with Russia licking it's wounds and waiting to rearm
For unguided shells/rockets it's the other way around. Tube artillery is relatively accurate and rocket artillery is an area barrage weapon. With guided shells/rockets the accuracy is similar between the two.
To be fair its a strategic AA the idea of it engaging himars was always moronic.
Its like expecting to use patriot missiles on MLRS barrages you don't you leave that for shorad systems like CRAM ect.
>AA missile vs. a ground-to-ground rocket
what a waste, just get a CRAM like a Mantis. but russians dont have any such toys except for a handfull of dysfunctional some show-off-unicorns
russia lacks so far behind, its painful
tube artillery is vanilla. reasonably accurate, reasonably fast-firing, good sustain.
rawkit lawnchairs come in two flavours. precision guided rockets are for surgical strikes, barrage rockets are for dumping lots of ordnance quickly.
almost all casualties from artillery come in the first 30 seconds before people take cover. the problem with tube artillery is 30 seconds is enough time to fire maybe 3 or 4 or 5 rounds. even if you barrage them for 24 hours those first 5 rounds are gonna be the only ones that matter, as people found out in WW1.
rawkit lawnchairs can fire every tube simultaneously, so you can dump 100 rockets in the first 30 seconds and kill everything that moves. the problem is you can't reload them very fast.
so it works like this:
0. (optional) satellites and drones identify point targets like anti-air radars that you blow up with precision rockets days in advance
1. massive surprise rocket barrage on the enemy position
2. your tanks and infantry go forward
3. tube artillery supports them "on call" because it has better sustain and rate of fire and is more accurate
british as90, korean k9 and pzh2000 + all of their variants can do that.
the big secret is the fire control computer and coms. this gives the troops instant fire support. all these systems finished their burst fire mission in 2 minutes after they received a request.
now it only depends how far away you are from the artillery system. at 55km range, a shell needs 130seconds to impact.
it only takes 4 minutes and less from the "mom, come and pick me up. the fricking russians are trying to bully me again"-phonecall to the "sssshhhhhHHHH-bo-bo-boooom"-russians-are-minced-moment.
its great for the defence, even better for an offence.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>korean k9
Doesn't that one only manage 3 rounds?
Surprised they can even do that with their ghettorigged autoloader. I wonder what the range of their MRSI barrage is.
Tube artillery is an expensive and heavy gun that fires cheap and lightweight ammunition, whereas rocket artillery is a cheap and lightweight launcher that fires expensive and heavy ammunition. This makes tube artillery better when you need to hit a large number of low-value targets, but makes rocket artillery better when you need to hit a small number of high-value targets.
Field Artillery is reasserting itself as the King of Battle
It's not so much a "game changer" as it is a "game enabler". The more artillery they have, the longer Ukraine can play their favorite shoot and scoot game
Always was
Suddenly, artillery is a game changer when in Ukrainian hands. Why aren't you patting Russia on the back for doing the same thing?
First off moron, I literally said it wont be a big game changer like the HIMARs were.
Second, Russian arty is inaccurate and indiscriminate leading to the destruction of cities and unneccssary deaths which isn't good if you actually want what's on the territory like infrastructure and a populace that doesn't fricking hate your guts.
Third, Russians are going through a shit ton of ammo and more importantly artillery weapons who's barrels need to be replaced every few thousand rounds which Russia is going to have a harder time to replace with the economic sanctions placed on them.
Fourth, even with Russia desperately firing everything it has with little thought put into what they're doing, they aren't changing the tide of war in any significant way. Ukraine army is still intact, they're still hemorrhaging man power, equipment, and money at an alarming rate, and what territory they do have is either destroyed or isn't guaranteed that they'll keep.
Russian artillery is nothing special, but its good enough to destroy their targets. I don't know why you guys think they're horribly inaccurate.
In addition to barrel wear (which has been mentioned already), there's also the issue of aiming: while they showed some flashes of brilliance back in 2014, for the most part, their fire direction has been slow and inaccurate thus far. You can have an incredibly accurate weapon, but if you point it at the wrong place, it's still a miss.
First off moron, I literally said it wont be a big game changer like the HIMARs were.
Second, Russian arty is inaccurate and indiscriminate leading to the destruction of cities and unneccssary deaths which isn't good if you actually want what's on the territory like infrastructure and a populace that doesn't fricking hate your guts.
Third, Russians are going through a shit ton of ammo and more importantly artillery weapons who's barrels need to be replaced every few thousand rounds which Russia is going to have a harder time to replace with the economic sanctions placed on them.
Fourth, even with Russia desperately firing everything it has with little thought put into what they're doing, they aren't changing the tide of war in any significant way. Ukraine army is still intact, they're still hemorrhaging man power, equipment, and money at an alarming rate, and what territory they do have is either destroyed or isn't guaranteed that they'll keep.
>Why aren't you patting Russia on the back for doing the same thing?
I did though, i gotta them credit for holding out for so long and capturing villages here and there couple months back and i reckon their artillery has been a huge help for them.
>Suddenly, artillery is a game changer when in Ukrainian hands.
Yes it along with NATO intelligence allows them to defeat the Russian artillery.
Fact is Russia is not making new guns, every loss means replacement with something older and more outdated. Ukraine however is getting better and better stuff.
Once the Russian artillery advantage is whittled down, they are in a lot of trouble. >Why aren't you patting Russia on the back for doing the same thing?
What do you mean? The whole reason everyone was pushing for them to get M777, Caesar's, Krabs and HIMARS was so they could properly fight the Russian artillery threat after their Blyatkreig faceplanted.
People have taken the Russian artillery advantage seriously from day one.
Is this supposed to be insulting or empowering the Ukranian national character? The art style says that it's lampooning the Ukranians and the western systems but the actual content seems pretty badass.
it was a game changer for Russia too. After the initial disaster that was the initial few months, Russia made gains in Luhansk and Donbass because they concentrated their artillery there. They have around 900 pieces there.
>Not as big of a game changer as the HIMARs
HIMARs allow Ukranians to survive by fricking with the Russian logistics.
Modern artillery in the vein of the PzH2k and so on allows them to actually fight and win battles.
Big difference.
>If either side had air control
Yeah and that only happens when fighting the lowest of towelheads who have neither a competent airforce of their own or modern gbad
It's not so much a "game changer" as it is a "game enabler". The more artillery they have, the longer Ukraine can play their favorite shoot and scoot game
Considering that Germany only has like 100 units for it's army that's quite the significant purchase.
The Ukranians must be really happy with it.
Also makes me wonder if they bought this partly because they are optimistic that the guided 155mm. Vulcano munition with 70-80km. of range will actually become standard.
This system outranges every howitzer the Russians field, their jets are for A2A combat and their helicopters are turbo cucked by Stingers, so the russians basically have nothing to counter this.
Even if it's in range, a good crew has already brought the system out of harm's way before the counter battery fire hits.
>Germans just wanna grill >Russians frick with their gas >in the following week 3 gepards are sent early ahead of the planned timetable and Ukraine gets a deal for 100 howitzers
I think there was something else as well, but the point is:
Holy frick Russians suck at diplomacy. The one major country who just doesn't wanna bother with slavic tomfoolery and they start shit with them.
I give them 2-3 months until they turned the new italian coalition against them as well.
>Vulcano munition with 70-80km. of range will actually become standard
I read 100+ before.
just wanna grill
frick with their gas >>in the following week 3 gepards are sent early ahead of the planned timetable and Ukraine gets a deal for 100 howitzers >I think there was something else as well
MARS II delivery.
All in the week following Russian shenanigans.
just wanna grill
frick with their gas >>in the following week 3 gepards are sent early ahead of the planned timetable and Ukraine gets a deal for 100 howitzers >I think there was something else as well
MARS II delivery.
All in the week following Russian shenanigans.
The Russian breached a contract, it was an act of economic warfare.
You don't do that to a mercantilistic state if you are smart.
The Ukranians will get access to some really shiny toys and the Russians will probably see some business partners turning their backs towards them out of nowhere with harbors and airports suddenly refusing entry and such.
It’s just like that time Lavrov pissed of Israel with his Nazi schizo theories. You could see how moronic it is from a mile away yet they do it anyway.
we had 185+ system but reduced the active number to 108 because of financial reasons.
we have a lot mothballed system which will made ready soon. we train ukrainian crews for them in the meanwhile.
russians are struggling already to overcome the ukies defence lines, they are fricked if these arrive in larger numbers.
russia will be forced to declare an offical war sooner or later and that will be really unpopular, russians will not like that. of course, they shitpost online how they support their police action, but no one really wants to go there to fight and die.
but will declaring war change anything? best russians can do if they mobilise is throwing untrained dudes at the front because most of their professional army is occupied holding the front and not training conscripts
they wont have as immediate impact as HIMARs but you need them to make actual assaults happen
HIMARs dont cover that role whatsoever they cannot achieve any sort of saturated barrages that howitzers can do
Interesting information about how Germany will swap their artillery systems. You must have some insider knowledge that even the Germans may not have. What brand of crystal ball do you use?
It's called a prediction.
Notice how we both made one but mine is supported by logic while yours is supported by butthurt? And who said it has to exclusively be Germany?
Maybe /k/ isn't for you, tourist.
I mean its how most of the shit has happened.
Most of the Ukraine gear was bought vai burgers saying we will give you abrams himars f-16 f35 for free or patriots (Not included mx and training contract cost) in exchange your old warsaw systems to ukraine.
Great deal because now burgers control their military via mx contracts and MIC companies have more customer to sell parts and FSRs while denying future profit and influence to Russia vai said contracts
Germany is also boosting their defense budget by a 100 billion. Where do you think that money will partly go? Just send the old howitzers away and buy yourself new ones. Rheinmetall also showed off their new tank not too long ago.
Also consider the three MARS-II (equivalent to HIMARS), also 27 more Gepards. And in fall shipment of IRIS-T, which can basically protect an entire city like Odeassa from harm. Sadly, Diehl can only produce one or two a year. Seems Russia has pokes the Krauts one to many times in the eye.
They don't want the war to end. They don't want anyone to win.
They're turning it into a WWI war of attrition. Ukraine will be destroyed but no one cares if it harms the Russians. The military industrial complex gets to sell product and so long as our governments don't talk too loudly about how much of our money they're wasting they'll get away with it.
Nothing will be left of Ukraine in the end but it lets them make money without having to sell the American people on another war. Now that Afghanistan is over we need more blood for the machine.
Russia will be dead in a generation either way, due to demographic collapse. The only question is how many innocents have to die with them. If Russia were to lose outright tomorrow, their only real choice would be whether to die quietly or throw nukes around in a temper tantrum.
Noguns tourists. Look at the poland general.
You could randomly shoot 10 people there and you'd likely either hit no gun owner or a foreigner. /k/ is filled with slavs and bongs who somehow didn't fit into /uhg/ or /chug/.
The rest just came straight from reddit and twitter.
Yeah and you subhuman redditors don't have any idea about warfare or weaponry in general either. Being invested enough to acquire a gun us a great way to filter out the garbage that is ruining the board by turning it into /misc/2.0.
Garbage like you.
First, you can order 155mm rounds almost everywhere in NATO countries.
Second, since precision is a lot higher, you don't need more than one or two rounds per target.
With some rounds, like SMArt, you only need one round for two hard targets (say tanks).
Third, the PzH2000 has different fire modes, the most popular is combined with COBRA radar, you shoot, the radar measures the flight path and adjusts the second shot based on that for higher precision. Or you can just shoot 10 rounds real quick and be on the move less than 60 seconds later, so that counter arty can't touch you. Or you shoot 5 rounds and calculate their flight path so that they all hit at the same second, over 40km, inside a 1m circle.
Fourth, you need less personal and the tasks the personal does are less physically demanding. The inside of the PzH2000 has proper climate control and is spacious, extending the endurance of the crew. It's a proper work environment.
Six, PzH2000 is heavily armed. It's pretty much immune to counter arty, only a direct hit could do damage. All damage so far could be repaired with German help using Augmented Reality goggles. The heavy armour comes at a price of weight, 67 tons i think, that means it's cant use any small bridge. The chassis is a Leo2, so it's agile and high speed.
Seven, cooling and quality of the barrel is such that you can shoot 8 rounds per minute for as long as your crew has charges and rounds.
Russian arty is just not made for serious war.
Why not buy Krabs which are better anyways? Germany can’t be trusted, they are Russian agents
They aren't and they aren't.
>I don't know why you guys think they're horribly inaccurate.
Because we're comparing them to modern guided munitions, moron.
Secret sauce of higher precision isn't only in the rounds, it's also in the COBRA radar and JIT measurements of previously fired rounds in air to calibrate for high altitude winds.
How a fricking artillery piece is worth 17m euros?
The bare PzH2000 cots less, but you have to add the COBRA radar system to get the most out of it's capability. Also, this isn't some cheap chink shit that falls apart after 5 years, you usually buy at least 10 to 20 years support at the same time.
Because they aren't.
Are you the tardlet who just posted in the other thread that all westerners think slavs are subhumans?
Same moronic/butthurt vibe.
Its german and germans only make wunderwaffen in limited production
By being 2-3 times as good as the competition which isn't that much cheaper.
Though I'm not sure where you got the number from,last time I checked I saw 9-12 million. It's been awhile though so maybe that's just inflation or the newest shit being added to upgraded versions.
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By being 2-3 times as good as the competition which isn't that much cheaper.
Though I'm not sure where you got the number from,last time I checked I saw 9-12 million. It's been awhile though so maybe that's just inflation or the newest shit being added to upgraded versions.
(I'm aware the price tagsays 1,7 billion for 100 byt that includes spare parts, barrels and lots of ammo)
There were reports that one of KRABs Poland donated to Ukraine caught fire and was basically destroyed because Ukrainians didn't follow the guidelines on how many rounds per minute should be fired in sustained fire and the shell caught fire while being put into the barrel. Also apparently ukros covered the fire/smoke sensors inside the cabin with duck tape because ukros are smoking inside the cabin. If not for that moronic ukro approach to fire hazard the inside safety system could easily put down the fire but it is what it is.
+ it's weird that ukros went for german phz2000, sure it's the best piece out there in terms of capability but it will take years to produce and it's expensive. Wouldn't it be more reasonable and cost effective to buy more cheaper artillery pieces that would overall be better than german overpriced wunderwaffe? KRABs are already being delivered to Ukraine and are being produced, but what about let's say korean K9? Wouldn't koreans be able to deliver them way sooner at better cost than germans?
>Fire off 3 rounds within 10 seconds
>Before the shells even land they're already gone
Not as big of a game changer as the HIMARs but it'll save lives and likely lead to more deaths on the Russian side then conventional artillery's.
What’s the difference between rocket artillery and shell artillery? I’m assuming rockets are more precise and meant for more surgical whereas shells are meant to cause more general damage?
range. Payload.
Rocket artillery can go further, and carry bigger playloads.
At the most fundamental level, with tube artillery you have to haul around a big gun which limits mobility but ammunition is lighter any you can carry more of it more easily.
At a practical level, it's easier to give rockets larger payloads and longer ranges while it's easier to give guns better rates of fire. Both can be made accurate with modern tech.
howitzers are a big deal in Ukraine, as is the ability to use them without worrying about barrel wear or supplying them with ammunition. Regarding your image, most of those PzH 2000s won't be ready for multiple years, Ukraine is buying them for the future (which is a bit of a headscratcher). They'd really be better served with something more affordable, or at least something that can all of the bridges in the country, something this 60 ton monstrosity can't do
rocket artillery is a good way of having a large amount of ordnance arriving in a short period without having a bunch of guns. It often also has longer range with more boom. More precise - that just depends. You have guided and unguided munitions for both tube and rocket artillery, and launchers like the Grad are famously inaccurate
it's a game changer for Russia too. With their deficiency wrt to dismounts they wouldn't have made even limited progress after they pivoted away from the north and focused on the Donbas. Nobody calls it a "game changer" for Russia because they started with a lot and still have a lot. With Ukraine it is discussed because of the flow of western weapons into their hands - the impact or lack thereof is just more notable
It only weighs this much with the roof armor protection kit. Without it it weighs 49 tons.
>Regarding your image, most of those PzH 2000s won't be ready for multiple years, Ukraine is buying them for the future (which is a bit of a headscratcher).
Other countries can send them their old stock and get brand new ones from Rheinmetall for free. It's a good deal for everybody involved.
>Ukraine is buying
They ain't buying shit, Germany is buying from themselves and then gifting those to Ukraine.
>most of those PzH 2000s won't be ready for multiple years, Ukraine is buying them for the future (which is a bit of a headscratcher)
my guess is they expect a lull in fighting before it sparks up again like Crimea and the Donbas, the lines will probably stabilize pretty much where they are for a while with Russia licking it's wounds and waiting to rearm
For unguided shells/rockets it's the other way around. Tube artillery is relatively accurate and rocket artillery is an area barrage weapon. With guided shells/rockets the accuracy is similar between the two.
What no one here mentions either is that rockets can be shot down
stuff like SMART and BONUS artillery rounds have an inherent advantage in that once it's zeroed in and the target doesnt gtfo, it's a done deal
although the russians air defense against missiles seems to suck balls
>rockets can be shot down
Sure, in theory, but S-400 has proven ineffectual against HIMARS.
To be fair its a strategic AA the idea of it engaging himars was always moronic.
Its like expecting to use patriot missiles on MLRS barrages you don't you leave that for shorad systems like CRAM ect.
>AA missile vs. a ground-to-ground rocket
what a waste, just get a CRAM like a Mantis. but russians dont have any such toys except for a handfull of dysfunctional some show-off-unicorns
russia lacks so far behind, its painful
tube artillery is vanilla. reasonably accurate, reasonably fast-firing, good sustain.
rawkit lawnchairs come in two flavours. precision guided rockets are for surgical strikes, barrage rockets are for dumping lots of ordnance quickly.
almost all casualties from artillery come in the first 30 seconds before people take cover. the problem with tube artillery is 30 seconds is enough time to fire maybe 3 or 4 or 5 rounds. even if you barrage them for 24 hours those first 5 rounds are gonna be the only ones that matter, as people found out in WW1.
rawkit lawnchairs can fire every tube simultaneously, so you can dump 100 rockets in the first 30 seconds and kill everything that moves. the problem is you can't reload them very fast.
so it works like this:
0. (optional) satellites and drones identify point targets like anti-air radars that you blow up with precision rockets days in advance
1. massive surprise rocket barrage on the enemy position
2. your tanks and infantry go forward
3. tube artillery supports them "on call" because it has better sustain and rate of fire and is more accurate
>almost all casualties from artillery come in the first 30 seconds before people take cover.
Good thing the Pzh-2k can fire 5 rounds that all hit the area simultaneously
Cant most modern western spgs do that
>I’m assuming rockets are more precise
Nope.
Pzh 2k is considered to be at least among the Top-3 SPGs of the entire world.
british as90, korean k9 and pzh2000 + all of their variants can do that.
the big secret is the fire control computer and coms. this gives the troops instant fire support. all these systems finished their burst fire mission in 2 minutes after they received a request.
now it only depends how far away you are from the artillery system. at 55km range, a shell needs 130seconds to impact.
it only takes 4 minutes and less from the "mom, come and pick me up. the fricking russians are trying to bully me again"-phonecall to the "sssshhhhhHHHH-bo-bo-boooom"-russians-are-minced-moment.
its great for the defence, even better for an offence.
>korean k9
Doesn't that one only manage 3 rounds?
Surprised they can even do that with their ghettorigged autoloader. I wonder what the range of their MRSI barrage is.
That's kinda the entire point behind MRSI. Well, that and shoot-n-scoot.
Tube artillery is an expensive and heavy gun that fires cheap and lightweight ammunition, whereas rocket artillery is a cheap and lightweight launcher that fires expensive and heavy ammunition. This makes tube artillery better when you need to hit a large number of low-value targets, but makes rocket artillery better when you need to hit a small number of high-value targets.
Suddenly, artillery is a game changer when in Ukrainian hands. Why aren't you patting Russia on the back for doing the same thing?
because russia doesnt have accurate artillery of either shell or rocket varieties and therefore there is nothing to praise them on.
Russian artillery is nothing special, but its good enough to destroy their targets. I don't know why you guys think they're horribly inaccurate.
>I don't know why you guys think they're horribly inaccurate.
barrel wear
They are, when they have functional barrels, which they still do more or less.
For now.
>I don't know why you guys think they're horribly inaccurate.
Because we're comparing them to modern guided munitions, moron.
In addition to barrel wear (which has been mentioned already), there's also the issue of aiming: while they showed some flashes of brilliance back in 2014, for the most part, their fire direction has been slow and inaccurate thus far. You can have an incredibly accurate weapon, but if you point it at the wrong place, it's still a miss.
>their fire direction has been slow and inaccurate thus far.
Anybody know why?
First off moron, I literally said it wont be a big game changer like the HIMARs were.
Second, Russian arty is inaccurate and indiscriminate leading to the destruction of cities and unneccssary deaths which isn't good if you actually want what's on the territory like infrastructure and a populace that doesn't fricking hate your guts.
Third, Russians are going through a shit ton of ammo and more importantly artillery weapons who's barrels need to be replaced every few thousand rounds which Russia is going to have a harder time to replace with the economic sanctions placed on them.
Fourth, even with Russia desperately firing everything it has with little thought put into what they're doing, they aren't changing the tide of war in any significant way. Ukraine army is still intact, they're still hemorrhaging man power, equipment, and money at an alarming rate, and what territory they do have is either destroyed or isn't guaranteed that they'll keep.
because russian artillery sucks
they're shooting dumb shells out of banan shaped barrels by the truckload, because they can't hit shit otherwise.
>Why aren't you patting Russia on the back for doing the same thing?
I did though, i gotta them credit for holding out for so long and capturing villages here and there couple months back and i reckon their artillery has been a huge help for them.
It's not a game changer but self-propelled arty is going to be much more survivable than towed arty.
Russia had the artillery advantage and still didn't manage to make any huge advances using it.
>Suddenly, artillery is a game changer when in Ukrainian hands.
Yes it along with NATO intelligence allows them to defeat the Russian artillery.
Fact is Russia is not making new guns, every loss means replacement with something older and more outdated. Ukraine however is getting better and better stuff.
Once the Russian artillery advantage is whittled down, they are in a lot of trouble.
>Why aren't you patting Russia on the back for doing the same thing?
What do you mean? The whole reason everyone was pushing for them to get M777, Caesar's, Krabs and HIMARS was so they could properly fight the Russian artillery threat after their Blyatkreig faceplanted.
People have taken the Russian artillery advantage seriously from day one.
Modern western artillery (especially when combined with even semi-competent intel) > whatever soviet leftovers vatniks are using.
So far western gear didn't really live up to the hype especially portable stuff...
nice
>we're witnessing the return of early 20th century propaganda caricatures
nice to see some things will never change
Is this supposed to be insulting or empowering the Ukranian national character? The art style says that it's lampooning the Ukranians and the western systems but the actual content seems pretty badass.
is that supposed to be in favor or against Ukraine? I honestly can't tell.
Watching Russia lose at their own game is delicious
We need to give the ukies drones with better optics.
it was a game changer for Russia too. After the initial disaster that was the initial few months, Russia made gains in Luhansk and Donbass because they concentrated their artillery there. They have around 900 pieces there.
>Not as big of a game changer as the HIMARs
HIMARs allow Ukranians to survive by fricking with the Russian logistics.
Modern artillery in the vein of the PzH2k and so on allows them to actually fight and win battles.
Big difference.
Field Artillery is reasserting itself as the King of Battle
Always was
always was always will be, smart weapons are a meme
>King of Battle*
>*in third world countries
ftfy
Only possible when air superiority isn’t achieved
Its the queen
not really, it's a war between two 3rd world armies and neither side has even a half-serious air force
If either side had air control the artillery would vanish. This is a war between two third world countries.
>If either side had air control
Yeah and that only happens when fighting the lowest of towelheads who have neither a competent airforce of their own or modern gbad
Russian IADS is struggling against Bayraktars and Su25s. It's not gonna do well against F35s.
Static guns yeah, but hunting pieces that move around a lot and look like trucks is harder.
It's not so much a "game changer" as it is a "game enabler". The more artillery they have, the longer Ukraine can play their favorite shoot and scoot game
Considering that Germany only has like 100 units for it's army that's quite the significant purchase.
The Ukranians must be really happy with it.
Also makes me wonder if they bought this partly because they are optimistic that the guided 155mm. Vulcano munition with 70-80km. of range will actually become standard.
This system outranges every howitzer the Russians field, their jets are for A2A combat and their helicopters are turbo cucked by Stingers, so the russians basically have nothing to counter this.
Even if it's in range, a good crew has already brought the system out of harm's way before the counter battery fire hits.
>Germans just wanna grill
>Russians frick with their gas
>in the following week 3 gepards are sent early ahead of the planned timetable and Ukraine gets a deal for 100 howitzers
I think there was something else as well, but the point is:
Holy frick Russians suck at diplomacy. The one major country who just doesn't wanna bother with slavic tomfoolery and they start shit with them.
I give them 2-3 months until they turned the new italian coalition against them as well.
>Vulcano munition with 70-80km. of range will actually become standard
I read 100+ before.
That's the 127mm. naval munition.
just wanna grill
frick with their gas
>>in the following week 3 gepards are sent early ahead of the planned timetable and Ukraine gets a deal for 100 howitzers
>I think there was something else as well
MARS II delivery.
All in the week following Russian shenanigans.
just wanna grill
frick with their gas
Come not between the Nazgûl and his bratwurst...
The Russian breached a contract, it was an act of economic warfare.
You don't do that to a mercantilistic state if you are smart.
The Ukranians will get access to some really shiny toys and the Russians will probably see some business partners turning their backs towards them out of nowhere with harbors and airports suddenly refusing entry and such.
It’s just like that time Lavrov pissed of Israel with his Nazi schizo theories. You could see how moronic it is from a mile away yet they do it anyway.
we had 185+ system but reduced the active number to 108 because of financial reasons.
we have a lot mothballed system which will made ready soon. we train ukrainian crews for them in the meanwhile.
russians are struggling already to overcome the ukies defence lines, they are fricked if these arrive in larger numbers.
russia will be forced to declare an offical war sooner or later and that will be really unpopular, russians will not like that. of course, they shitpost online how they support their police action, but no one really wants to go there to fight and die.
but will declaring war change anything? best russians can do if they mobilise is throwing untrained dudes at the front because most of their professional army is occupied holding the front and not training conscripts
Reminder that the US could have had this same capability 20 years ago with Crusader.
>100 rounds a day
they wont have as immediate impact as HIMARs but you need them to make actual assaults happen
HIMARs dont cover that role whatsoever they cannot achieve any sort of saturated barrages that howitzers can do
That better not be a Reddit screenshot
It's an essential basic item at the operational level like GPMGs or RPGs are at the tactical level. Evolution instead of revolution.
Irrelevant in this case. These howitzers will take years to arrive.
Alexa, what is a ring-trade?
>inb4 why would nations want to swap out their 20 year old kit for freshly produced up to date shit for free?
Read the thread, the weapon systems do very different jobs.
Interesting information about how Germany will swap their artillery systems. You must have some insider knowledge that even the Germans may not have. What brand of crystal ball do you use?
It's called a prediction.
Notice how we both made one but mine is supported by logic while yours is supported by butthurt? And who said it has to exclusively be Germany?
Maybe /k/ isn't for you, tourist.
I mean its how most of the shit has happened.
Most of the Ukraine gear was bought vai burgers saying we will give you abrams himars f-16 f35 for free or patriots (Not included mx and training contract cost) in exchange your old warsaw systems to ukraine.
Great deal because now burgers control their military via mx contracts and MIC companies have more customer to sell parts and FSRs while denying future profit and influence to Russia vai said contracts
Passive aggression is for women and homosexuals.
Germany is also boosting their defense budget by a 100 billion. Where do you think that money will partly go? Just send the old howitzers away and buy yourself new ones. Rheinmetall also showed off their new tank not too long ago.
Scholz already backpedaled on that.
He hasn't. It's gone through parliament successfully as well.
That's right. 147 billion this year.
A bit less than Polands entire economy.
How new are you?
He did not, it's done.
Also consider the three MARS-II (equivalent to HIMARS), also 27 more Gepards. And in fall shipment of IRIS-T, which can basically protect an entire city like Odeassa from harm. Sadly, Diehl can only produce one or two a year. Seems Russia has pokes the Krauts one to many times in the eye.
>sale
Is this just dressing for the home audience? Is anybody really moronic enough to expect money for them?
Guided rocket artillery was already a game changer for Ukraine. This is basically adding a little icing on top.
>How big of a game changer is a howitzer?
They don't want the war to end. They don't want anyone to win.
They're turning it into a WWI war of attrition. Ukraine will be destroyed but no one cares if it harms the Russians. The military industrial complex gets to sell product and so long as our governments don't talk too loudly about how much of our money they're wasting they'll get away with it.
Nothing will be left of Ukraine in the end but it lets them make money without having to sell the American people on another war. Now that Afghanistan is over we need more blood for the machine.
but will many russians die?
All of them
Good thing Russia is suicidal enough to keep the war going then I guess.
Russia will be dead in a generation either way, due to demographic collapse. The only question is how many innocents have to die with them. If Russia were to lose outright tomorrow, their only real choice would be whether to die quietly or throw nukes around in a temper tantrum.
I'm sure some Ukrainian israelite will sell them and retire comfortably.
worth 1.7 billion euros
So nothing
Doesn't matter. They're never going to actually get any. It's just money laundering.
I am Hans from Berlin oblast and agree.
Joachim from Düsseldorf oblast speakink, what a thoughtful and precise argument.
Thanks for opening my eyes. WTF? I love Russia now!
Does Vulcano use GPS or Galileo (or both?) for guidance?
I know Katana is supposed to use only Galileo (to be ITAR-free), but I dunno about Vulcano.
>Reddit screenshot
How the frick did they completely take over /k/
WE are /k/ now!
Cope and seethe vatnik, this is a Reddit board Now. Slava Ukraini!
Cool pic
Noguns tourists. Look at the poland general.
You could randomly shoot 10 people there and you'd likely either hit no gun owner or a foreigner. /k/ is filled with slavs and bongs who somehow didn't fit into /uhg/ or /chug/.
The rest just came straight from reddit and twitter.
>Noguns
>muh guns board
I'm afraid there's more to this board than just guns, my knuckle-dragging mouth-breather friend. The title should give that away.
Yeah and you subhuman redditors don't have any idea about warfare or weaponry in general either. Being invested enough to acquire a gun us a great way to filter out the garbage that is ruining the board by turning it into /misc/2.0.
Garbage like you.
A literal Reddit screenshot again. Go back and seethe about Russia there.
Vatnik cope ITT is reaching pic related level
100 howitzers you will be actually able to source ammo for?
with longer range than enemy's?
with better accuracy?
more rounds per minute?
seems like a really significant change...
First, you can order 155mm rounds almost everywhere in NATO countries.
Second, since precision is a lot higher, you don't need more than one or two rounds per target.
With some rounds, like SMArt, you only need one round for two hard targets (say tanks).
Third, the PzH2000 has different fire modes, the most popular is combined with COBRA radar, you shoot, the radar measures the flight path and adjusts the second shot based on that for higher precision. Or you can just shoot 10 rounds real quick and be on the move less than 60 seconds later, so that counter arty can't touch you. Or you shoot 5 rounds and calculate their flight path so that they all hit at the same second, over 40km, inside a 1m circle.
Fourth, you need less personal and the tasks the personal does are less physically demanding. The inside of the PzH2000 has proper climate control and is spacious, extending the endurance of the crew. It's a proper work environment.
Six, PzH2000 is heavily armed. It's pretty much immune to counter arty, only a direct hit could do damage. All damage so far could be repaired with German help using Augmented Reality goggles. The heavy armour comes at a price of weight, 67 tons i think, that means it's cant use any small bridge. The chassis is a Leo2, so it's agile and high speed.
Seven, cooling and quality of the barrel is such that you can shoot 8 rounds per minute for as long as your crew has charges and rounds.
Russian arty is just not made for serious war.
They aren't and they aren't.
Secret sauce of higher precision isn't only in the rounds, it's also in the COBRA radar and JIT measurements of previously fired rounds in air to calibrate for high altitude winds.
The bare PzH2000 cots less, but you have to add the COBRA radar system to get the most out of it's capability. Also, this isn't some cheap chink shit that falls apart after 5 years, you usually buy at least 10 to 20 years support at the same time.
why would they need a game changer? i thought ukraine had total victory??
Might as well sell your scarps to Ukraine before it becomes Russia
Why not buy Krabs which are better anyways? Germany can’t be trusted, they are Russian agents
Because they aren't.
Are you the tardlet who just posted in the other thread that all westerners think slavs are subhumans?
Same moronic/butthurt vibe.
How a fricking artillery piece is worth 17m euros?
Its german and germans only make wunderwaffen in limited production
By being 2-3 times as good as the competition which isn't that much cheaper.
Though I'm not sure where you got the number from,last time I checked I saw 9-12 million. It's been awhile though so maybe that's just inflation or the newest shit being added to upgraded versions.
(I'm aware the price tagsays 1,7 billion for 100 byt that includes spare parts, barrels and lots of ammo)
Overpriced pile of scrap metal which breaks after a single day.
>Overpriced pile of scrap metal which breaks after a single day.
t. angry Lolek in his break between cleaning toilets
There were reports that one of KRABs Poland donated to Ukraine caught fire and was basically destroyed because Ukrainians didn't follow the guidelines on how many rounds per minute should be fired in sustained fire and the shell caught fire while being put into the barrel. Also apparently ukros covered the fire/smoke sensors inside the cabin with duck tape because ukros are smoking inside the cabin. If not for that moronic ukro approach to fire hazard the inside safety system could easily put down the fire but it is what it is.
+ it's weird that ukros went for german phz2000, sure it's the best piece out there in terms of capability but it will take years to produce and it's expensive. Wouldn't it be more reasonable and cost effective to buy more cheaper artillery pieces that would overall be better than german overpriced wunderwaffe? KRABs are already being delivered to Ukraine and are being produced, but what about let's say korean K9? Wouldn't koreans be able to deliver them way sooner at better cost than germans?
Krab chassis reportedly are breaking from the firing.
at best a cosmetic improvement.
They dont need 100 but 1000 or 2000 or better 5000 pieces