H&K

That's not intended to be funny or something. I got my first own handgun a couple of months back. I went for the H&K Mk23 for reasons of

- quality & also the manufacturer's reputation
- durability/life expectancy
- caliber
- history/interest in technical aspects of the gun
- aesthetics.

I was very fortunate to come by an early 2000 version of the Mk23 in an extremely good condition for a very low price (700€). Since I got her, I put maybe 600 rounds through her and am able to reflect on the whole "I now have a gun"-situation: Turns out

- I am a poor shooter. I hit basically anything on the target (around 13 meters) from rings 1-10 and not in a good way. My posture and grip are fine (people said so), I maybe haven't found the correct strength of gripping the gun the right way yet - it's probably either too soft (better for aiming/worse for recoil compensation) or too firm (better for recoil compensation, worse for aiming). Else, I would be hard pressed to identify, why I achieve such poor results, which is frustrating: The results are really bad and I do not know how to improve really. I bought gloves however, maybe that helps a bit, and the gun has been thoroughly cleaned for the first time. I am not scared of the recoil by the way, the .45 (FMJ 230grs. standard ammo) is fine in that regard and the weight of the Mk23 helps a lot. I suspect it's something about the "same height, same light"-thing which is off somehow: I read that when aiming with the Mk23 the front sight should be kept higher than the rear sight, which could make sense, because I usually find my hits to be too low (and a tad to the right, but not in a systematic way). I should also note, that the sights itself are correctly adjusted. Maybe I should just book a handgun shooting course, I don't know, I am honestly disappointed in my performance.

  1. 2 weeks ago
    Semantic-Bernd

    - I am also concerned and actually quite scared for the gun to break, which must sound silly. Read and watched on quite a few people's opinion on that specific gun and the most common statements on topics like durability and life expectancy made were referring to the rubber o-rings (barrell) as well as the very unspecific overall life expectancy of the whole gun to be like "up to 30000 rounds". Ok, so 30000 rounds is not what I was having in mind! If considering the fact, that I already "used up" 600 rounds of this (and the former owners for sure add some 1-2k rounds on top of this - it must have been a safe queen more or less), I am unhappy given how much this already makes up of her life. So I ask myself, what will happen, what parts will fail first, second and so on after 5k, 8k, 12k rounds? Given the fact, that I would't have access to the customer and supply friendly US-market for spare parts (HK-Parts for example; also H&K US isn't close being such a shitshow like H&K Germany is), this makes me wanna by a second Mk23 for, well, "just in case"... It's silly. There's also the constant danger of the MK23 being really phased out of production. Bottom line, if I am honest? I just want to be able to use/shoot my gun, which happens to be the Mk23 forever. "Forever" would just happen to be the correct lower bound of my life expectancy expectation.

    Well, that's it.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Are you slow firing and aiming each shot carefully or trying to shoot fast?
      If the former, I would look more towards your trigger pull. An improper grip is really just a hindrance in fast shooting, you can hit the target with your feet if you line up the sights properly and pull the trigger without moving the gun.
      Get some snap caps and really work on pulling the trigger without flinching, jerking, slapping, or tightening/loosening your grip

      Don't worry about it Black. The only things that "wear out" on a gun are the barrel, the extractor, and the magazines, basically. Gun losses accuracy and starts keyholing? Put a new barrel in it. Gun stops extracting spent casing? Put a new extractor in it. Gun stops feeding cartridges in to the chamber? Get a new magazine. It's not rocket surgery.
      Also the standard that HK had to meet for the US government was 30,000 rounds MINIMUM without ANY parts failure or unacceptable loss of accuracy, and the gun absolutely crushes that standard. You will have to shoot tens of thousands of dollars' worth of ammunition through your gun before you ever have to consider replacing any parts.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Semantic-Bernd

        You brought up some good points (in general) and also some, I simply missed to address. As for the shooting performance, I should have added, that I really try to shoot fast(er), more like I imagine real-life conditions would require me to react (without the larping super-fast shooting bullshit). So probably it was to be expected to some extent that I wouldn't perform like someone aiming for a more extended period of time for each shot, right. But still, my performance is not impressive.

        The trigger-pull, yes. But then again, it's a MK23, what could you/I possibly fuck up with that trigger? I am not aware of any mishandling the whole trigger-pull-part of the shooting, to be honest. Any hint on what I should look out for in this regard?

        Also, thank you for the opinion and details on whole life expectancy situation. It kind of clams me down, but still leaves me finding proper solutions for spare parts to get at one time (not too close in the future).

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Evey gun fails eventually due to wear and tear. The vast majority of gun owners will never meet that limit for even replacement springs. It's usually easy to keep track of simple maintenance items because of armor manuals, but for some reason HK doesn't have a round count chart like some other companies. You just replace them as they fail I guess. Link in the maintenance manual issued to the US military.
      https://usermanual.wiki/Document/HKMk23Mod0.1704900155/view

      I'm sure there might be more info out there in regards to small parts life expediency, but from what I recall from other company (in 9mm) most springs are 5k, pins and barrel 10k, slide 20k.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      An MK23 will likely outlive you. Based off of what you're saying you probably won't shoot enough in your life to destroy it. You may need to replace some parts but if you're not an ape it's pretty easy. As for your shooting, most likely answer is bad sight alignment (most common new shooter problem). Remember there are two points you are trying to align for a shot back sight and front. Make sure to align them properly (Mk 23 should be match the tops of both sights). Then focus on pulling the trigger until it breaks. Focus on only pulling the trigger don't cheat and use body mechanics to make it easier that will throw off your alignment. Don't react just shoot. Make sure to breath during this and make sure you are not teacupping and instead have both hands around the grip.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Semantic-Bernd

        Also a big thank you to you, Sir! From the kind of usage I put her through, I'd say it's savest to assume a load of 50-100 shots/month with a proper cleanig after 1000 shots. I gave her - out of curiosity and getting used to the cleaning process as a whole - a first cleaning after around 500 shots.

        As for the shooting: I should have actually added this, too. I was told people shoot with both eyes open when shooting with pistols. I tried and couldn't make this work, to be honest. So, I decided to keep aiming with one eye open only. Is it this? Could this be the problem? Do people really shoot with both eyes open with handguns?

        >Remember there are two points you are trying to align for a shot back sight and front
        Man, I know: Same height, same light, right? I did read up on that stuff, but somehow the result of me putting 10 shots down range looks like garbage. I will look up and try to find picture of my targets...wait a moment.

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    coom

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Mk23 trigger is notoriously shitty and the gun is probably an awkward size/weight for you. There really isn't a reason to get it other than for the USSOCOM larp, because it genuinely isn't a very good gun otherwise.
    Have you actually shot handguns before this, and did you have better results? Also yes, you should absolutely book a course. Handgun shooting is very different from rifle shooting where you get 3 points of stabilization and today usually an optic/rds, so even a braindead guy can usually score decent hits on his first try.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Go to bed, Burt.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Semantic-Bernd

      I don't know, if you're trying to troll, but that the trigger of the Mk23 is supposed to be bad, sounds just silly to my ears. It actually is the exact opposite of what I read/listened to up to now and what I experienced by myself with regards to the gun. No, the trigger is actually of fine quality and haptics.

      I was not exactly overwhelmed by the weight of the gun: loaded (12x230 grs) it's about 1250 grams (without thread protector), the size however is a factor I had to get used to. I am not too tall (overall and hands), so I could argue "it jsut fits me about right" or something, but actually feel comfortable with the Mk23.

      Yes, I have shot other handguns before and I didn't like most of their extremely low weight (Walther, Glocks etc.), because they felt like toys and they did make a very bad job (my impression, naturally) of compensating for the high gas pressure of the 9mm.

      About the course, yes, like I said, I am considering and will very likely book one. It's just that I want to avoid getting ripped off. I already had this situation during the initial "course" for getting my firearms license: People around here are very sleazy, dishonest and often just roleplay that they know things. I would want the instructor to actually know, what he is talking about, before putting money on the table, you see?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >shot Glocks and Walthers
        >"no the trigger is fine"
        kek
        >did make a very bad job of compensating for the high gas pressure of the 9mm
        >I don't know, if you're trying to troll
        I dunno, are you?
        You come across like either a high functioning hipster autist or very elaborate baiter.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous
      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >just that I want to avoid getting ripped off. I already had this situation during the initial "course" for getting my firearms license: People around here are very sleazy, dishonest and often just roleplay that they know things
        No offense but you're clearly in no position to judge that. Your main problem seems to be massive anxiety about imaginary issues and arrogance.
        You're just neurotic and insecure, drop the caffeine, sleep more, work out a bit. If none of that helps, seek therapy.

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >mk23 first gun
    >buys it for the heavy weight
    >afraid of the mk23 breaking and wants to buy a second one out of fear
    >all other guns are toys and dont do the job

    The best to ever fucking do it.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Semantic-Bernd

      Why are you bombarding this thread with your feces exactly? I believe I stated my reasons, aims, problems quite clearly.

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    dont care post the tits

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Mark 23, suppossedly, can achieve 2-2.5 inch groups at 25 yards. Maybe the sights are zeroed at that distance.
    It's a shame that the rear sight can't be adjusted for elevation, whereas on the USP Tactical 45 the rear sight is adjustable.

    Some people modified the slide of their Mark 23 to accept a red dot sight. It's sacrilegious but it does allow you to zero the gun to the distance you want and ammo you are using. The .45 ACP 230 grain load is subsonic, it can be very accurate, but the bullet does drop like a brick.
    The USSOCCOM tested the Mk23 with pretty hot .45 ACP. This gun can handle .45 Super and any uber expensive .45 ACP Hirternberger Buscadero Ticondas defensive ammo no problems.

    My first centerfire handgun was a .45 ACP. I also had the same problem of shooting low at 12-13 meters. I even it the lawn of the shooting lane once.
    It was me for the most part, going from .22lr straight to .45 ACP wasn't a great idea. I corrected my shooting technique, and I started to get better groups.
    The gun itself was a old, worn, rattly and poorly refinished 1911-style of pistol with rather crappy and dinky sights that I bought for dirt cheap.
    It had a lot of functional and reliability problems that I had to fix myself. Even something as a stiff extractor can make you shots hit to the right, specially on a gun with a loose chamber.

    With a Mark 23 there's no excuse.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Semantic-Bernd

      >With a Mark 23 there's no excuse
      That was (and is) my understanding, yes.

      About that .45 ACP 230 grains "dropping like a brick" on the other hand, I don't agree and you should look at actual data about trajectories: http://gundata.org/blog/post/45-acp-vs-9mm-luger/; if you're working with reasonable distances up to, say 50m, it's doesn't have a real impact. About all the "hot loads 'n shit"-stories, well, yes, pretty much common knowledge with regards to the Mk 23 and that is was initially aimed to work with 180/185 grs +P or even +P+ ammo, too. But what's your point?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >About that .45 ACP 230 grains "dropping like a brick"
        I was kinda joking.

        >180/185 grs +P or even +P+ ammo, too. But what's your point?

        Hot ammo with lighter bullets have more muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory. You will definitely notice a change of point of impact.

        I don't know to which distance and ammo loading HK designed the Mark 23's sights for.

        Not saying that regular .45 ACP ball ammo is underpowered, but I dunno which brand of ammo are you shooting.

        Next time, try shooting the gun off a rest to eliminate any possible human error. Try at both 12-13 meters and at 25 meters to see how it groups. Try different brands of ammunition.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Semantic-Bernd

          Ah ok, didn't catch that.:)

          I heard about the hot loads, of course, and I can imagine that their lighter bullet plus bigger charge would result in a different feel. Initially I was very eager to get to know .45 +P ammo, but, sadly, here in Europe everything has to comply to C.I.P. bullshit and neither Buffalo Bore nor Underwood have C.I.P. licensed products, so these are unobtainium here. There are Hornady and some other +P products, but availability is only in theory with how the whole ammo situation in Europe has turned out. I mean...the 9mm folks payed around 360€/1000 peak here some weeks ago - it's totally insane.

          From what I heard most of the distances in conjunction with the Mk23 are set to 25m - could easily be that the sights are set for the distance, too.

          Brands of ammo I have used are all .45 230 grs standard stuff. I want to get JHP +P, too, but this is tricky here, because you either have to have a hunting permit or be a member of a gun club, which I am: It's just that my gun club produces new ID cards once a year....don't ask. Manufacturers are S&B, Magtech and mostly Topshot.

          What I'll do next time is this: I will up the front sight a bit more (slightly above the line indicated by the rear sight) and will modify my approach to a more aiming and less speed focussed shooting.

          Thanks for all the input.

          Evey gun fails eventually due to wear and tear. The vast majority of gun owners will never meet that limit for even replacement springs. It's usually easy to keep track of simple maintenance items because of armor manuals, but for some reason HK doesn't have a round count chart like some other companies. You just replace them as they fail I guess. Link in the maintenance manual issued to the US military.
          https://usermanual.wiki/Document/HKMk23Mod0.1704900155/view

          I'm sure there might be more info out there in regards to small parts life expediency, but from what I recall from other company (in 9mm) most springs are 5k, pins and barrel 10k, slide 20k.

          Thanks for the calming input! I am aware of that I am probably a bit too nerdy-cautious in all of that, but I do like my new hobby and the Mk23 in particular: I just want her to stay.:) Oh, and thanks for the manual! Just for your understanding: Getting H&K spare parts here is a hellish nightmare as I was told (and experienced myself by now), so it's not just me, things are indeed diffcult to obtain.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            If it is hard to find parts due to highly regulated parts, then you might just have to take it to an armorer to get maintenance done on it. Even in America this is pretty common, as there are plenty of people who don't wish to work on the gun themselves due to whatever reasons. Same deal as people no working on their car.
            Not a whole lot of "gunsmiths" in the US are even certified armorers for a specific brand, but honestly no gun company is going to know if someone who isn't certified worked on it unless they fucked it up super hard or permanently modified it.
            If you can't find parts, just stick to field striping and basic cleaning and find a trusted place to take it too if you can. There has to be a place to get a gun serviced if you can buy one.

            Also a big thank you to you, Sir! From the kind of usage I put her through, I'd say it's savest to assume a load of 50-100 shots/month with a proper cleanig after 1000 shots. I gave her - out of curiosity and getting used to the cleaning process as a whole - a first cleaning after around 500 shots.

            As for the shooting: I should have actually added this, too. I was told people shoot with both eyes open when shooting with pistols. I tried and couldn't make this work, to be honest. So, I decided to keep aiming with one eye open only. Is it this? Could this be the problem? Do people really shoot with both eyes open with handguns?

            >Remember there are two points you are trying to align for a shot back sight and front
            Man, I know: Same height, same light, right? I did read up on that stuff, but somehow the result of me putting 10 shots down range looks like garbage. I will look up and try to find picture of my targets...wait a moment.

            Shooting with both eyes open just gives you better situational awareness. Target shooters even have eye pro that blocks their non dominant eye off so they can focus with just their dominant eye.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Semantic-Bernd

              That makes perfect sense, yes, and if this country has one thing it's gunsmiths. I also constantly look out for Mk23's and spare parts in various forums/2nd hand market places just in case (O-rings, barrels, springs etc.). On that option, bringing my gun to a non-H&K-gunsmith, would you imagine he could more or less fix most of the problems even without access to original H&K parts?

              You see, H&K is treating it's customers in Europe very differently from how US-H&K does in the US: Here even gun shop owners are treated like garbage by H&K and left in the dark.

              So the 1-eye/2-eyes is more or less by shooters discretion then? Ok, this kind of clames me a bit, because I really couldn't imagine this to a necessity. For fast shooting, turning, picking yet another target it probably makes sense to opt for the 2-eyes open approach, I think.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I want to pick up a mk23 here soon as well.
    I've got an hk45c with a bunch of swappable parts, but I've always listed for a mk23 with one of those matchweight comps that were for sale on hkparts a while ago.
    Pic rel. I want to shoot this with hot ass 45 supers.

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >shooting consistently low
    >sometimes to the right
    You're flinching and are afraid of the gun shot. Go get someone to teach you a class because you're clearly to fucking stupid to even be aware of what your own body is doing.

    Also, you talk like a sperg and all your concerns are fucking idiotic nonsense. lurk more fuckwit, nobody wants to read your novel length posts whining about how you don't know anything.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Semantic-Bernd

      It really is you again, yes? Wtf is your problem, you moron? You can't even read. I absolutely never said anything about "consistently", that's actually the point, you piece of nonsense.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >you act like a retard
        >multiple people call you a retard
        >you sperg out and thiink that you're only talking to one person
        Jesus fuck, get off the site loser.

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >talk like a pretentious euro homo
    >describe your marksmanship to be worse than that of an average noguns woman and pretend to ask for advice
    >dismiss every answer with a know-it-all attitude
    >start talking to random people as if you "recognize" them
    Top quality bait anon.
    Seek mental help if serious.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Semantic-Bernd

      I honestly don't understand, what the hell is wrong with you. You have to have some kind of low intelligence related problems.

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