FN made a new rifle and a new cartridge. Long stroke piston AR18-ish rifle with a folding stock. No details on the new cartridge other than metric designation and some pictures. It’s a 6.5x43. Looks like a grendel/x39 case head with an OAL a little longer than 5.56. 2 piece case. Both case head and cylinder are steel. Maybe it runs at really high pressure? They got Magpul to make 25rd pmags for it. Anyway it’s in the military section of FNs booth so maybe won’t make it to the civilian market.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/01/18/shot-show-2023-fn-americas-new-individual-weapon-system/
>Long stroke piston
>Trilug bolt
>XCR controls
What the frick does that have to do with an AR18? Not everything that isn't an AR15 is an AR18 you homosexual.
Well you see it has a piston, which armalite clearly invented 60s.
>t. gun enthusiast
(I know you're kidding)
Looks gay frick FN
>This post brought to you by Palmetto State Poorhomosexualry Gang
Duality
Looks based love FN
A picture of the cartridges. The case head/rim design looks eerily similar to the hybrid rifle cases made by shell shock
SEXOOOOO
It's literally Shell Shock case.
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/novx-pentagon-5-56x45mm-with-nas3-stainless-steel-casing-and-55gr-solid-copper-hp/49568
>remakes 6.5 grendle
>will never be released to the civillian market
Heh, nothing personal kid
Good for them .30 sc was getting lonely up there.
I want one so badly its unreal. Civvie version fricking now.
Here you go buddy https://robinsonarmament.com/product/xcr-l-standard/
Lol no. Not even the same caliber. The point is an intermediate sized cartridge with battle rifle energy.
You going to pony up the $1.50+ per round to shoot it?
Sure. I mostly shoot .308 so it's not that much more.
>$4999
>warranty voided if rapid fired
I don't see the point. who's supposed to buy this?
The army, once they realize the XM5 is shit.
I am
Russia and/or Ukraine. Btw, who's gonna win?
Us.
Honestly I can see this being picked up to replace the m4.
I think they'll stop fooling themselves with the xm5 eventually, drop in an 18-20" barrel, and be like "wow, this thing FRICKS as a dmr, huh?" and shift them over to that purpose.
I will the fricking second they let me
People obsessed with ultimate ambidextriusness
I expect them to talk their way out of acquiring this gun because they can just rebarrel the M4's and modify the OAL for this cartridge then talk themselves out of rebarreling the M4's because not using 5.56 will bring about logistical constraints.
When it comes to the gun community it will be pretty much the same exact cope about the XM5 minus the gun's weight since it seems to be basically like the newer AR-10's but chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor short.
>too much recoil for the women
>Wat. no 30 round magazines
>The ammunition is heavier than 5.56
>Puts 120kpsi 5.56 hybrid cases in legacy M4's
>It actually works
AR's on MARs, 2040's and beyond baby, let's goooo
Da. Personally I wish they'd neck it up to .30 cal and stick standard 150 grain ball into it just for the lols. The future will be 30-06 forever, we will just continue shrinking the case length until we get to 150 grain .30 cal bullets out of a pistol cartridge length casing. maybe mass effect field generators to speed up a .30 cal (made up of something denser with higher melting temperature of course) projectile to mach 5 or something
>.300 HAM'R hybrid case
>150gr 3000fps
Wilson-sama, I kneel
Wilson has frick all to do with it, he just let one guy so a shitload of work, paid that guy to slap WT on it then dropped it once he figured out a better twist rate and P.O.Ackley'd the shoulder. And now it feeds worst
t.7.62wt haver
Seems like an ever so slightly scaled down NGSW and 6.8x51. If it does run at high pressures, no doubt it will achieve similar trajectory (or better, bullet form factor looks better), range, and penetration, Without the giga recoil and bulk of the larger round
NEW CALUBER JUST DROPPED :O :O
>HUXWURX has made a 6.5 diameter suppressor in the same style as the FLOW556k
I want this NOW.
ok
/thread
Also based digits 2023 is gonna be based I guess
>FN America have unveiled a brand new rifle developed for a US government requirement.
>The new weapon and ammunition was developed for the Irregular Warfare Technology Support Directorate (IWTSD). Interestingly, the aim for the project was to provide overmatch against emerging great power competitors and future threats. A similar goal to the US Army’s Next Generation Squad Weapon System which coalesced on a 6.8mm round.
So glowies and black ops weren't satisfied with the NSGW and wanted their own "next gen" weapon, is that right ?
They want NGSW but actually good
Bingo. They let the moron companies spend billions designing them, found what they liked, then handed it off to a real company with the cherry picked data for 1/4 the price.
FN's rifle just says "Call me when the XM5 doesn't work out. I'm here."
I have a feeling the XM5 will never become the M5A1. It's just too bulky. Unless they make an accurized DMR version, which would make more sense. I also wonder why FN wasn't part of the initial competition for the NSGW between GD and Sig, since that design looks pretty close to what the army wanted. Maybe because FN is not an American company ?
FN was. With the MRGG. It was ruled out early on.
I looked it up and it was basically just another AR-10. Not quite close to other NSGW competitors.
It's more of a SCAR with AR controls plastered on. But yeah, pretty stupid. This new LICC one is way cooler.
FN had a HAMR derivative and probably a MRGG derivative up (we know they had 2 bids).
Doesn't matter what they want, the 6.8fury won and will be made for the next 30years. They will have to cope and adapt or have this 6mm round die off. Between the XM5 and FN IFC the IFC is more practical, it looks like a well thought design where the XM5 is a behemoth that had stuff added to it as it went along.
FN could put their logo on a pile of shit and I’d still buy it
>finally a charging handle not on the wrong side
BASEDDDD
It's on both sides.
Oh frick that's moronic
New meta, see XM5, uhhh, I mean XM7.
>Likes giving reacharounds
This is ludicrously superior to the nigsaw in terms of aesthetic appearance
really, really like how this looks
>Both case head and cylinder are steel. Maybe it runs at really high pressure?
Current version is more optimised for lighter case weight than pressure. It has large cut INS into case base to reduce "meat" in this area and weight. High strength of the steel base makes it possible.
Though if course they can make less cut case head variant for higher pressures.
>6.5x43
Could be a more reasonable alternative to 5.56x45mm instead of the 6.86x51mm nonsense which nobody outside the US will adopt since 7.62x51mm already exists.
Any pics of it out yet?
This is what I’ve been waiting for. Not a cartridge that’s shoehorned into a 5.56 STANAG or an .308 SR25/AR10/G3/FAL/M14 mag. The ideal cartridge is somewhat longer than the 5.56 magazine will allow but short enough to have feeding problems from a .308 magazine. The proliferation of those magazines has hampered service rifle cartridge development for almost 50 years.
Nope. High pressure hybrid case .308 necked down to 6.5 mm shot out of AR10's is GOAT. The army made a mistake going with a 7 mm bullet.
Yep. 6.5x43mm IWK is a great example. Basically identical performance to 6.5 grendel but without the crappy case geometry that makes it unreliable from belts or box mags over 20 rounds. The 6.5x43mm IWK wont fit a STANAG, but is too short to do the whole .308 magazine thing. 6.5cm is a great paper puncher, but the size of everything to accommodate the .308 case head and length makes a service rifle needlessly heavy. If you need to reach out to 1200 yards in a military capacity you want a bigger payload than 6.5cm. Thats not even getting into ammunition weight.
The new 6.8 cartridge and the spear is super dumb.
>6.5 grendel
Not powerful enough. I want 6.5mm 8g bullet going 1000m/s at the muzzle.
Incredible ballistics,
Incredible wounding,
decently light weight
decently low recoil
Please.
What you want is a 6.8x51 necked down to 6.5 (.264).
Or just a 6.8x51 with a 135gr bullet (SD equal to 123gr .264), fired from a long (~20-24”) barrel.
That’s way up in the battle rifle weight class. Impossible to achieve with a round that can fit in an AR15 sized gun without resorting to 120kpsi+
AR10 size range is just fine. They're still decently light weight. Given the reality of every soldier having an optic I think that a high pressure 6.5 in battle rifle size range is a really great compromise. Works excellently out of optic equipped LMG's as well.
If you’re fine with all that, then the 6.8x51 is just whats you’re describing, just .013” wider in diameter.
Key factor of bullet performance is its form not weight or SD.
3rd from right is 64 gr "5.56 mm D" bullet. 0.218 G7 BC. Better than 147 grain M80 7.62x51 NATO bullet. Just let it sink in for while.
What is each bullet? Also why chose M80? It wouldn't say it's known for it's amazing BC.
>What is each bullet?
M193 / M855 / M856 (fired) / 70 gr VKO / 64 gr "5.56 mm D" / 7N6 / 5.45 tracer.
>Also why chose M80? It wouldn't say it's known for it's amazing BC.
Because its standard battle rifle ball round. BTW 7.62x51 NATO M118 is not much better easier. It has better BC but its BC comes from SD and additional weight and comes at price of reduced velocity.
High speed low drag, that is the mottto. Not fat and slow.
Hah. This is the 2nd time you’re replying to me with that picture. I know all about form factor. I didn’t think it needed mentioning because the difference in form factor of equal length .264 and .277 is just so minimal.
Who makes that 64gr 5.56 and can I buy it?
Do you know how to derive form factor from bullet shape/proportions? I’m going through a thought experiment of a .204 FABRL-type bullet in a high pressure 5.7 case and want to derive G7BC’s and bullet lengths, but don’t know how other than comparing it to existing spritzer bullets with known i7 form factors .
>Who makes that 64gr 5.56 and can I buy it?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313511791_Towards_a_600_m_GP_lightweight_cartridge_part_IV
Emeric D makes them. Contact him.
7x46UIAC makes more sense than a Grendel clone IMO, the fat G is just too slow for me/IMO.
We’re in the era of 80kpsi, everything is different now. At 80kpsi, a grendel approaches the velocities of a 6.5CM. Just need the cases and actions to support that pressure. Neither of which are a problem. 2 major companies now are making hybrid case ammo that can support high pressures.
Right, and I'd love that, I think the other anon though has problems with the short/fat/squat nature of the Grendel, so if we were talking solely longer-COAL rounds, between the IWK and the UIAC, I'd look more towards the UIAC myself. (That, or .264 USA or something because it has "USA" in the name)
How about 80K PSI 5.56?
Then you're dealing with velocities that begin to have too much wear on a barrel. There's a reason you don't see 5000fps bullets.
Like 1000 m/s from 14.5''? Same velocity M16 already had with M193? Problems?
You don't need 80kpsi to get 3k fps from 55gr out of a 14.5" barrels...?
>3k fps
But you need it to get 4600 fps.
see
64 grains
I would coom instantly.
But will the 6.5x43 FN be the same as the 6.5x43 IWK?
I wouldn't mind if they bring the latter back instead of creating a new cartridge.
That's a weird way to describe what the Czechs called the 7.62x45
Do we think they will sell this and their MRGG to civvies anytime soon?
>this
Probably, but not for over a year
>mrgg
Never, but not to any military either, it's dead in the water
>They got Magpul to make 25rd pmags for it.
Why didn't they use the Six8 mags?
I’m guessing the case head is ever so slightly wider. And the mags pictures in the article I posted look like they have less taper to them than the six8 mags.
You will never be an AR-15
Good.
Leave
>long-stroke piston
lol you mean the worst operating system for suppressors?
Weird way of spelling DI
DI is the quietest tho, long-stroke is pretty much the loudest gas operating system you can put on a rifle.
DI with the quietest can is loudest at the ejection port (I'm sure I don't have to explain to you why that is if you're making such a bold claim), and if you balance it with a flow-through suppressor then you're trading suppression at the muzzle for suppression at the ejection port. Feel free to look up any muzzle/ejection port comparison between a HUXWRX flowthrough can and the RC2.
Neither short stroke nor long stroke have the same weakness that DI does when it comes to that. That's not to say they're silent at the ejection port, obviously increased pressure is also coming from the chamber, but there's a difference between hot gasses escaping past an extracting case and hot gases being vented out of the bolt carrier and out of the ejection port into the gas tube.
NTA
but why would I touch anything with a pisston?
Does a longer unlocking time help with this problem? Say the straight portion of the cam track for the bolt was twice as long. Are we in the realm of making an appreciable difference in ejection port volume?
Is it a Scar?
>Right side charging
NGMI
>++P++ Grendel
Now that's neat.
>Anyway it’s in the military section of FNs booth so maybe won’t make it to the civilian market.
DROPPED.
Man FN REALLY missed the mark on this one, this in 5.56 and available to the civ market would give the 416 a run for its money.
That would be a blunder. There are enough 5.56 guns as is, there is literally no nontrvivial improvement you can make to 5.56 guns short of a Sullivan-esque unified rifle/MG. The militaries want overmatch and armor penetration.
But I’ve been shilling for a possible 5.56 sized cartridge with hybrid case and long, heavy, low ff, high BC bullet going at 3200+ fps.
2 captchas back to back. A0W and RDX lulz
>there is literally no nontrvivial improvement you can make to 5.56 guns
Rest of post is good, not this
>No, I won't elaborate
What more could you add to them? They do everything they’re supposed to do. You could frick with barrel length a little, change the gas system, bolt geometry, etc, make other tinkering improvements but in the end you have a gun that is not better enough than an m4 to warrant the logical headache that accompanies adoption, and you won’t have the economies of scale to be able to make it cheap enough to compete with regular basic b***h ARs.
Designing a new gun around a new cartridge gives one the opportunity to replace 2 or more guns with one rifle, instead of remaining constrained to the performance envelope of the legacy cartridge. That’s always a valuable thing. Like the unified rifle/MG I mentioned in my previous post. Now that is a monumental leap forward, obsoleting 20 pound LMGs and giving every rifleman a bona fide machinegun.
Logistical*
Wouldn't the sum of those parts be greater than the whole, though?
If you just do one or two things, sure, maybe, but if you have a rifle that is
>Lighter
>More Reliable
>Easier to shoot
>More precise
>etc etc
It'd be as good as a new rifle, right?
I get your point about the two roles though, even if I'm not sure it'd work that way in practice. There's still a delineation between a carbine and a support weapon, and I'm not sure everyone's going to be equipped in such a way for any Joe to be able to flex into a prior-dedicated role like that, though, I admit I could be wrong in this, etc.
The ammo "builds" on the foundation of the role basically, or something, if that even makes sense.
It would, yeah. But a 6th new feature of improved trajectory/range/terminal effect makes an even better rifle. And those qualities you listed, the AR is already excellent at those things. “More reliable” as in, what? An extra few hundred rounds inbetween stoppages? How much better accuracy do you want out of the gun, without changing the ammo? The improvements at this juncture become marginal and are in the realm of diminishing returns, IMO. But who knows, maybe tomorrow someone releases a paradigm shift weapon chambered in 5.56
Easy to shoot and lighter though are fair points, and things I want to see in a rifle, and that was the whole point of even mentioning a unified rifle/MG. In my mind I’m simply thinking of a really light, constant recoil AR sized weapon with almost no recoil in full auto
>“More reliable” as in, what?
No lube, submerged in water, then left in -65F weather, and still works when you pick it up with no extra steps.
>How much better accuracy do you want out of the gun, without changing the ammo?
Minimum 1MOA with *ALL* (reasonable) ammunition, from the factory
I just like to aim big I guess, kek
>In my mind I’m simply thinking of a really light, constant recoil AR sized weapon with almost no recoil in full auto
That would definitely be pretty sick, anon. ESPECIALLY if it's in some .224 Valkyrie/6mm ARC/etc hypermagnum (my opinion). Rapid but accurate fire at 600 yards would be insane while not needing to break the infantry's backs further with excessive weight, etc etc
Aim for the moon, hit the stars or something, I dunno. I sorta feel like we're *almost* there, if not damn close already, but perhaps the costs would be just THAT prohibitive compared to a more reasonable mid-frame AR with constant recoil and a charged-up Grendel, etc etc
Who knows, but so far SHOT has actually been decently interesting (to me) this year, sorta same with .mil procurement/news, so we'll see I guess!
>obsoleting 20 pound LMGs and giving every rifleman a bona fide machinegun.
If all gay gun control acts didn't exist stuff like this would probably be the main service rifle of the US. The only reasoning for a medium/heavy machine gunner would just to bust cover locations while a horde of yankees bum rush the fortified area unloading a constant wall of lead (obviously this is fantasy based off of an alternate timeline if capitalism(Rothschild israelitery), communism, socialism, and other homosexual European ideologies weren't imported into the US via mass immigration).
>why would actually light lmg's be the main service rifle
One of the biggest reasons, besides boomer nostalgia, on why the military won't let go of the M4. So many existing companies cranking out parts that are easily interchangeable (logistics). Oops you want to upsize the military and don't have enough guns to outfit the fresh meat? get already existing companies to start cranking out billet receivers and whatever other parts they make inhouse. There's obviously going to be a conditional in the contract to force the company to get proper tooling down the line to meet milspec requirements to retain the contract the last thing someone would want is to get sued by the government and have probably years of work be done for free or worse, to basically pay the government to make shit for them.
whoops. forgot some words. am tired. basically in a non-cucked America every goober owning an actually light LMG would force the military to adopt one as their main service rifle since pretty much every gun company would have the ability to start cranking out LMG's for them. I mean they kinda do now if for that gun since it looks like it's aluminum and not stamped steel but to start becoming a globohomosexual shill will definitely destroy the bottom line (actual paying customers that won't drop them like a used up hooker in Davos).
you can probably do one better. If you could scale down a 6.8x51 to intermediate size, such that a grunt could carry several hundred rounds worth, you would retain the sectional density and velocity of the 6.8, while improving bullet form factor, resulting in equal or better penetration, trajectory, and energy retention. energy levels would be inbetween a 5.56 and 308. such a cartridge could probably do everything, including filling a GPMG’s and DMR’s roles.
Have you heard of the Surefire MGX?
Also want to add that a new weapon platform in 5.56 is sort of an admission from FN that “hey our SCAR sucks, maybe try this instead”. It would be dumb for them to cannibalize their own products.
What is there to do that hasn't been done already?
Want an AR15 but better? There's a dozen companies that make AR15s with extended uppers (LWRC), monolithic uppers (LMT), lowers that give you perfect freefloat (Springfield), superlight models (POF), standard AR's built to the best quality (DD), whatever.
Want a piston AR15? You got HK, LMT, SIG Sauer and every other manufacturer since the early 2000s.
ant a non-AR gun? You got FN's own SCAR. Again you have HK. You have B&T. You have the Swiss SIG. You have Beretta The XCR. The ACR. Tavors, AUGs, Desert Techs.
Every permutation of the 5.56 combat rifle has been developed by someone somewhere at this point.
That's why armies and gun manufacturers are focusing more and more on improving ammo performance and targeting systems. That's where the real gains can be made. Choosing one (good) rifle over the other is most likely inconsequential in most battles if they share the same caliber.
That would be totally pointless, 5.56 AR15s are the most oversaturated market in firearms history. This is certainly unusual insofar that its a folding-stock piston AR, but the MCX has already cornered that market for the high end and BRN-180s for the low end. To say nothing of FNs own 16S, which while not an AR would have far too much in common with this thing in 5.56. I'm not saying it wouldn't sell at all, but 5.56 rifles are not remotely a boom market and it wouldn't be worth the trouble.
k keep me poasted
>That huge takedown lever
What's even the point?
i think it at least looks nicer than the sig
Looks like a much more reasonable replacement for the 5.56 and M4 than the NGSW stuff. FN claims that a fully loaded 25-round mag for this thing weighs about the same as a fully loaded 30-round 5.56 PMAG, which is pretty remarkable if true given how much higher performance that 6.5 round must be compared to 5.56.
Also, the shorter barreled variants (11.5" & 14.5") will supposedly be about 7-8lbs, not that bad given the likely performance of the rifle. I can only hope that FN eventually makes a semiauto version for the civilian market someday.
As far as we know it's still being tested by SOCOM, they bought 360,000 rounds for testing less than a year and a half ago.
Name one reason why do need that instead of M4 without mentioning
>muh 800 meters Afghanistan firefights! Muh Russian/ISIS hybrid PKM overmatch!
Because they you get NGSW
Are you implying that much improved power and long-range performance aren't valid reasons?
>Because they you get NGSW
This rifle and its ammo are almost certainly significantly lighter, handier and lighter-recoiling than the MCX Spear and its 6.8 round, which is why I said that it seems like a much more reasonable replacement for the M4 than the SIG stuff, assuming you are indeed wanting to replace it with something with more range and power. If you don't care about that, then by all means, keep your 5.56 M4.
>Are you implying that much improved power and long-range performance aren't valid reasons?
If you go with logic "range is good, we need overmatch Russians/ISIS hybrid PKM" then you get NGSW. Range is good you get more range, and where to stop? This how NGSW was made.
And I'm saying that FNA and IWTSD seem to have come up with a much more reasonable solution with the IWS program requirements than the Army with the NGSW, so you don't necessarily have to go that overboard.
But this solution is overmatched by NGSW.
Everything is a list of tradeoffs, always depends on where you wish the balance to be to achieve whatever task you have in mind. A more powerful, longer-ranged rifle will typically involve more weight and recoil; it's all about how much more you're willing to accept. If your goal is to replace the M4 with something more powerful and long-ranged without increasing the soldier's weight load back to 7.62 battle rifle levels, the IWS seems to be an intriguing option.
The intended purpose of this FN rifle/MG in the new 6.5x43mm is to replace ALL small arms in US SOCOM/Canadian SOF inventory. No more 6.5 Creedmore/7.62 NATO rifles/MG's, no more 5.56 guns. Literally a highly configurable, high velocity + flat trajectory hard hitting but low recoil cartridge with almost the same weight per cartridge as a 5.56. 180 rounds of 6.5x43 weighs the same as 200 rounds of 5.56. Its even lighter weight than 7.62x39 or 6.5 Grendel. A standardized universal rifle, MG, and cartridge that has the capabilities and performance of both a 5.56 and 7.62x51, developed specifically for SOF use. It'll likely go over to Australia, UK, and other western SOF units as well.
Did FN abandon the mrgg? There hasn't been any news about it for almost an entire year
I suspect this is its successor, since they have appear to have the same goal, role and customer. Its hard to tell though since parallel redundant contracts happen all the time.
Separate programs, MRGG is run directly by SOCOM, LICC is run by the IWTSD and the Canadians
And FN is still in both, though I don't see why SOCOM would adopt both, suspect they want to compare costs and benefits and then decide
Is the charging handle ambi, or did they shit the bed and require you take your hand off the trigger to charge the gun?
the only control that isn't ambi is the takedown latch
OK cool now make it in 308
OP's image.
> plastic selector?
> plastic mag release button?
Jesus, there's value engineering, then there is pants-on-head moronic engineering
And those things should be metal, why?
> metal, why?
selector - no benefit to making plastic
mag release - no benefit to making plastic
Seriously, these parts have "just worked" for years being metal. Switching to plastic seems like a solution in search of a problem.
Cheaper, lighter, quicker to manufacture..?
Cheaper by cents. An AR15 LPK costs almost nothing.
Lighter by grams, on an 8 pound rifle.
Quicker, sure, but how fast they can make rifles is bottlenecked by the part that takes the longest to make.
Every bit counts. You're singling out one small improvement when the purpose is for many small improvements to add up to larger ones.
Durability, technically..
selector - no benefit to making metal
mag release - no benefit to making metal
>2 safety levers
>2 fricking bolt releases
>2 got damn charging handles
whats next, 2 foward assists?
we need to bring back nuns in schools so they can use their rulers of justice and rid the world of wretched left handers and their heathen ambidextruous demands
>whats next, 2 foward assists?
What about a backward assist?
Their MRGG has 3 forward assists. The AR style one and a charging handle on both sides that can act as one.
Frick, AR15's and AK's are getting old...