I’ve been tasked with creating a UAS platoon in my battalion.
The intent is to create a battalion level hunter-killer cell that integrates scouts/snipers, mortars, and UAS to locate and destroy targets.
>current equipment
We have RQ-11 Ravens at our disposal (basically model airplanes with thermal/IR capabilities), VHAs (a shitty drone on a string mostly used for retrans, but can also use thermal) and potentially some kind of civilian quad copter in the future.
I beseech you, anons, how can I make this concept not suck? What kind of equipment do I need to procure to make an effective drone platoon? What do I need in a perfect world where I can order anything?
Quadcopters are neat.
I agree. I think the army is severely lacking in drone assets below the Brigade level.
The fact that we’re still using shitty model airplanes as our primary battalion UAS asset is pathetic. We’re using our only quad copter drone (the hoverfly VHA) to act as a floating antenna, literally a “variable height antenna”. Not only does the VHA barely function (it fails to land properly and cuts its own tether cable, along with many many other critical malfunctions), but even when it does work, you can barely control the thing by design. The system cost the army $70k a pop and generals fucking LOVE them holy fuck
China is massively ahead in this one area. Hence having 85+% of the commercial drone market and selling over 20 times the combat drone sales of the next closest country (the US). It's not even that they're better (the full sized UAVs are worse), it's that they're 15% of the price and they make way more.
Plus, I recall that US drones ended up being packed full of Chinese parts in an audit (Chinese parts in the F-35 ate up the headlines but they were everywhere).
... Do you not have Black Hornets? What God awful unit are you in?
We do have black hornets, but those are for squads. They don’t fill the niche I’m talking about in my posts
what capability do you want to provide and how quickly do you want to provide it?
I want to be able to support ISR capabilities at the battalion level. I would want the platoon to be very mobile, able to deploy UAS and operate while moving.
Can you launch/recover moving? It seems like the future is this elm part of a gun battalion, doing the launches and recovers on the move in an artillery manouevre area. You should copy AMA doctrine for your own launch/recovery stuff.
You could probably launch while moving since the Raven is just hand-launched. Theoretically you could also recover while moving if you had an extremely skilled operator, but realistically no. The Raven “lands” via a controlled crash
Also to be clear, I’m part of an infantry battalion.
>operate while moving
that part is going to be tricky. Operating a drone and meaningfully communicating what is there takes a lot of concentration from the operator. you'll probably need to stick them in a vehicle if you want to move them around while they work. I'm not sure what software options you have for blue/red force trackers, but it may take yet another person running a duplicate drone output just to update the tracker data.
it's looking like you'll need quite a few people with access to the drone feed and whatever input devices you need for communications, all stuffed in a vehicle.
The idea I have for this is to use a high-back command HMMWV. A raven requires 2 operators, one piloting using the drones direct feed and the other using an attached laptop to show the map overlay, and other flight stats. They can both be seated in the rear and potentially work while driving. Maybe you could also fit another guy in the back operating an OSRVT for counter drone capabilities/transmitting feed to higher. The TC of the vehicle can handle the radios and JBCP to communicate to higher.
The issue is that there are 4 Ravens we would consolidate for the platoon. Idk how we’d realistically accommodate that
I have. Explain to me what you think “coming down from the top” means
>Idk how we’d realistically accommodate that
do you actually expect to have them all up at once? I agree, your tasking load is going to get really big with all the drones up and moving that many dudes around is going to be a pain. I don't see a practical way of keeping them all mobile and operational at the same time. could you do a split system, where you have a mobile component and a semi-stationary one?
Maybe lean into the shitty VHA? Like, one of the few selling points of fixed wing drones is improved range and loiter time, and a VHA would allow signal relay for control at much, much longer ranges than a civilian quadrotor, no?
>Requires two operators, one to fly and the other to look at the map
Can't you just fly it and alt tab to check the map every few minutes?
Check out the Blue UAS list of pre-approved drones for US govt use: https://www.diu.mil/blue-uas-cleared-list
Skydio for platoon-portable quadcopters and FLIR Skyraider/skyranger for big Mavic size ones which can spot at long range and recover into the bed of a pickup.
https://www.flir.com/products/r80d-skyraider/
NSN 1550-01-691-0162
>It's carrying a teeny tiny gun case
Adorable.
I would run 4-6 MRAPs with three IR quadcopters from the list this anon provided each. One in the air, one recharging, one spare. From what we see in Ukraine a drone team needs something like 3 people.
To avoid counter battery fire going after your emissions the MRAPs would have to be constantly on the move or you would have to set up the antennas far away from the drone team positions and conceal them
cont.
so I imagine this:
HQ:
Humvee with comms to the mortar teams and shit, CO, driver, map guy
Humvee with platoon's spare drones and batteries, XO, driver
3x drone squad:
two MRAPs/humvees each, two drivers and six drone guys per
1x counter-UAS team: two of these things
Ukraine has showed that, tactically, drones belong at the platoon level. There's some great videos where the shooter is "talked onto" the targets by the commander who can see the targets from above.
I agree but we're talking about a battalion level ISR unit here. They need at least one drone in the air at all times, preferably one from each team and someone to compile their data before sending it off to mortars
Battalion ISR is some of that 1 hour JAG mediated fire mission big army bullshit.
But I recommend the xuav talon pro series or alike "wing fpv" drones. Some of them have gimball cameras and all in price is ~$500.
The key is practice, and software. The Ukrainian GIS is a good example.
The MIC will always have catastrophically worse unit economics than civil dual use drones which makes it pointless to try and self defeating. Look up wright's law.
Just cite Ukraine and their love of quadcopters. USA and others focused too much on high end UAVs and not so much on the small scale. Quads can hover and they are faster than you’d think. All USA UAVs are airplane shaped.
Counter - you need to think counter measures for triangulation and jamming. Russians are goofs so don’t assume every foe are goofs.
I agree. Unfortunately, I have to make the most of what is provided to me, and hope that my battalion is picked to test new quad copters.
As for counter-UAS, I have NSNs for drone busters, and an anti-drone vehicle, but I highly doubt I’d even be able to order any of that shit. Right now all I have is the OSRVT system.
Buy a hack rf one rtl sdr and learn how drone radio comms work. It helps if you have an EE.
Also at the bigger brain level you should work out the limitations on doing a wire run to antennas so you can pilot from under OHP.
Ya the whole VHA system is incredibly stupid. It would be cheaper and more effective to just buy two Mavic drones, fly one while the other charges and swap them out
No you haven’t.
That kind of shit comes down from the top, not some random brainless grunt
>implying those in top positions do any work at all
Are you from some totalitarian country or something?
Go all in on the civilian quadcopters. If you have the funding, get Mavic 3s with the thermals (about 5,000 each). They have a 15km range and ~45 min flight time, which is so much better than the Ravens I used to use.
Make sure you have access to your own organic transport (like a Humvee) so you can launch, fly around for a bit, land, swap batteries, move, then relaunch as fast as you can.
Get with your IT guys or civilian contractors to wipe the chinky telemetry bullshit if you use DJI drones, yes they can do it and it is possible. We use Phantom 4s and even though the range isn't very good (5km under BEST conditions, normally more like ~2.5km and also no thermals or zoom function on the camera), it displays 10 digit grids on the flight controller for wherever your currently flying.
Constantly have comms with your fires and PLs/COs that you end up attached to
Do whatever you can to mask your thermal signature and make sure your have good overhead concealment
We have found that a team of 3 operating out of a humvee works well
>One guy operating the drone
>One guy operating radios
>One guy plotting stuff on a mapboard and writing coordinates from the operator and giving them to the guy on the radios, swapping batteries when the drone lands and pulling security
Oh and once again, ditch the Ravens and use civilian quadcopters.
Brother if it was up to me we’d have already ditched the ravens and switched to Mavics.
I appreciate your input though, and agree with what you’re saying. That setup is basically what I had in mind.
Not necessarily. Potentially 2 up at a time with the other 2 ready to swap. I’ve trained with Group where they had 4 ISR assets in the sky at once surveilling one location so it’s not necessarily that outlandish
That actually might be a good point. The VHA system uses a “ghost radio” to boost the new ITN systems the army fielded. Maybe we could rig something to boost the drones range as well? Idk, but it’s definitely something interesting to look into
>Maybe we could rig something to boost the drones range as well?
You can do a handoff procedure if you have one raven and two teams
>Team 1 launches drone, fly out to team 2 at the edge of the drones range
>Team 2 links into the drone once it gets close, takes control over it
>Range increased a bit
I forget exactly how it goes but it should be in the manual or TM or whatever
the smaller orlan that russia uses has orbiting relay capability and even EW capability
can any US assets do anything like that?
>get Mavic 3s
DJI is officially banned from the US military, for good reason.
Ukraine had to replace all the firmware in their DJIs because DJI was giving away their GPS locations to the Russians back in early 2022.
>because DJI was giving away their GPS locations to the Russians back in early 2022
I doubt this statement at face value, you make it sound like DJI as a company received those coordinates and sent those with intent to russian MOD or RU forces. I don't believe that.
DJI offers C-UAS solutions with their Aeroscope line of products. The default firmware that comes with those DJIs quads sends out GPS coordinates of the pilot and drone to be received by systems like Aeroscope. DJI sells Aeroscope to anyone
The Ukrainian firmware just took measures against that. Any EW suite could have received those telemetry
DJI is a chink company and is almost always paired with a phone or tablet for video and R/C control so you're providing the communication device for it. I don't trust that the chinks aren't sending data back to china.
>I don't trust that the chinks aren't sending data back to china.
that's a very sane assumption, and that's exactly why DJI is banned in the military.
However, it is stupidly insane to believe that the chinks would use that ability to snitch on ukies in some trench fighting against ziggers. The risk would be wasting that capability, meaning that this capability would get exposed. They're saving that one for peer/near peer conflicts.
>RQ-11 Ravens
Obviously deployable autoturrets, ew and anti armor missiles
>moving HQ. truck/humvee/something
>BIG tethered drone working as a relay/repeater
>medium sized quads carrying custom grenades
>the grenades are guided and relay to the medium drone so you get full control till impact
>grenades are just simple 3d printed fins with a cheapo transmitter + cheap servos
if you want to go full crimes then get your medium drone outfitted with the most powerful laser you can carry and then aim at faces
>>the grenades are guided and relay to the medium drone so you get full control till impact
are just simple 3d printed fins with a cheapo transmitter + cheap servos
also i really really don't understand why ukraine isn't doing this
they are already 3d printing fin endcaps for the grenades
>grenades are just simple 3d printed fins with a cheapo transmitter + cheap servos
Pointless and stupid. You need separate control channels for guiding the bomb, and a human operator just isn't going to be able to do it well enough for it to make a difference anyway. Meanwhile it adds a shitload of cost and complexity, not to mention weight. You're better off with either larger bombs or more of them.
Taiwan has that ridiculously over-complicated Revolver 860, carrying 8X 60mm mortar bombs. There's absolutely no reason to carry them in a rotary dropper, though; all it adds is weight and the chance of mechanically jamming. Ukraine has a seven-cell vertical dropper which is more accurate and not prone to jam.
>and a human operator just isn't going to be able to do it well enough for it to make a difference anyway.
have you not seen the skill shots that ukie drone operators have been doing without control?
>and a human operator just isn't going to be able to do it well enough for it to make a difference anyway.
the amount of near misses i have seen from ukrainian grenade drops is nuts, even just a foot or two of correction would massively increase lethality
>Meanwhile it adds a shitload of cost and complexity, not to mention weight. You're better off with either larger bombs or more of them.
its literally 50 grams and like 3 dollars
bulk receivers are cheap so are the shitty little servos
you can have toggled control channels and have the bigger drone just autopilot for a few seconds
also another concept is something like this but with explosive mini drones
Doesn't matter because you don't have any of the correct equipment.
Mobile mesh network using A2 frame from drones and breadcrumbs, connect all assets in and voila, insta network. Communication with drone, communicate with snipers, communicate with artillery.
It needs to be dirt cheap, it will kinda suck but drones are highly attainable. The best you can do is buy racing quads and get some experience with them. Experience is learned not bought.
>It needs to be dirt cheap
This is why it needs to be bought locally and dodging the governments procurement process.
Yes and no. If trade with China was stopped due to war the drone supply chain would be 100% fucked. Ideally having some home manufacturing capacity would be a national security priority. Stockpiling drones is wasteful because of obsolescence but so is building the assembly line and not using it. What you need is home manufacturing of civilian drones which can be converted.
>The best you can do is buy racing quads
You can build any kind of drone for dirt cheap, being racing/FPV, static/gimbal, winged. Just depends on the config of the central flight MCU
Price of base components of motors, batteries and transceivers will not change in the foreseeable future though
I'd recommend a pixhawk controller and ardupilot. You can program waypoints and have it upload pictures over 4g. Also check our drone engage.
In <5 years I predict everyone will have backpack hammers, maybe even solar powered.
If you build a PGK style 155mm guidance kit that locks onto jammers you'd be golden.
>pixhawk
yeah exactly this, I just couldn't recall the name
There's a strategy where you buy the cheapest of x, get some experience with it and learn what upgrades are actually worth the money
>stating the obvious
what the fuck are you trying to say moron
ok but not a soul has mentioned IVAS
real time drone wallhacks are going to be fucking op
How does one into anti-jamming? Use math if it helps