Depends on the context and use. It was made to fire armor-piercing rounds foremost. The civilian-available soft-tissue variants were....disputable, and expensive.
Expected were similar fragmenting properties as that of a 5.56, but the jury is still out, the price point being a huge factor as to why 5.7 hasnt gained traction for decades.
Filling a threat with 5-7 hot bees will make the caliber dispute null at any rate.
this, 5.7's speed makes it zip through soft targets, making it expand less than 9mm. Think of this like the classic 45 vs 9mm argument, slower, larger bullet has more "stopping power" towards soft targets, but struggles against armor.
I didnt say it couldnt kill or fragment, just that given 9mm's slower speed it'll more effectively fragment/expand on soft targets, aka have more stopping power like OP asked. It's a fine round that can still do the job, but thats not what OP was asking.
this, 5.7's speed makes it zip through soft targets, making it expand less than 9mm. Think of this like the classic 45 vs 9mm argument, slower, larger bullet has more "stopping power" towards soft targets, but struggles against armor.
I didnt say it couldnt kill or fragment, just that given 9mm's slower speed it'll more effectively fragment/expand on soft targets, aka have more stopping power like OP asked. It's a fine round that can still do the job, but thats not what OP was asking.
Probably not. It operates the same way - poking a hole. And the hole is smaller.
It doesn't fragment like a 556 does. A upgrade with EPR style bullets would be great. Liberty Defense made some for 4.6mm.
Are you seriously raising the energy transfer meme? I thought that ignorant stupidity died out with the boomers. Maybe zoomerlore is resurrecting it.
Permanent wound cavity is 95% of terminal effect and temp cavity is the other 5%.
In the sense that 5.7 will penetrate body armor, and 9mm will pancake against it, yes. But a single 9mm round against soft tissue will do more damage than a skinny little 5.7 needle zipping through.
>MP5 >most popular SMG in the world, used (used to be used) by anone that mattered, only rivaled in popularity by the Uzi perhaps >P90 >used mostly as a movie prop, some french police units and some thirdies
You be the judge
>>used mostly as a movie prop, some french police units and some thirdies >Meanwhile, in the real world, the United States Secret Service, several Fed LE agencies, and a ton of Police Depts and Sheriff's Depts:
The P90 is literally FN's best-selling gun per their own sales department
PROTIP: It's only gonna get more popular and common now that NATO finally formally adopted it, and the only reason they didn't do it 20 years ago was HK and the Krauts sperging the fuck out when 5.7 beat 4.6 in the PDW trials.
The MP5 still outnumbers it vastly, and it or other smgs of the same caliber will continue to do so, since no one carries a handgun in 5.7, a lot of servicemen, feds, officers and deputies carry one in 9mm, which matters, since even it it's now NATO standard, departments still don't want yet another caliber to worry about.
Cope more, it will always remain an unpopular nieche weapon, and that nieche is now primarily filled by SBRs or PCCs >HK and the Krauts sperging the fuck out...
Good on them >It's only gonna get more popular...
Lol, we will see (we won't)
>The MP5 still outnumbers it vastly
Yeah a 5 decade headstart and a major NATO supplier actively sabotaging adoption will do that lmao
Cost has always been the biggest barrier to entry for 5.7 as a round, mostly because for 20 years only FN made the ammo and only FN made the guns. Now neither is true, and again the NATO adoption is a bigger deal than you're really admitting here.
We will see, and I'm not gonna sit here and say it's going to phase out 9mm completely but I do think we're going to see a lot more modern PDWs going forward.
>MP7 in 5.7
I recently picked up a Ruger LC Charger and really like the layout, which takes significant ergo cues from the MP7 IMO. If HK themselves don't do it then IMO a mil PDW with a very similar layout chambered in the adopted round is probably coming down the pipe lol. They would be retarded to leave money on the table and not just adapt the existing design to the better cartridge, but IMO their behavior throughout the entire PDW trial fiasco shows they're more than capable of being retarded lol.
I think in general it's probably accurate to say that the MP7 is the better gun, and 5.7 is the better cartridge. It should be a no brainer but mil procurement and logic very rarely go hand in hand
1 month ago
Anonymous
How is it? I want to get one and SBR it.
1 month ago
Anonymous
It fuckin rocks man, extremely compact, ideal ballistics for the round, been 100% reliable. The lack of handguard real estate made setting it up for nods kind of a pain but that's the case with all these tiny guns.
The lack of standard capacity mags is kind of a pain, it comes with one 20rd ruger mag, and new ones are $30-$40 a piece. BUT PSA rock mags work with it, I got a 10 pack for like $130, they're 23rds out of the box and +7 baseplates are readily available. I'm hoping either PSA or Ruger has 30rd factory mags coming down the pipe, seems like accessories are coming out at a good pace and I think a lot of people are picking them up.
The trigger is the same as the Ruger 57, which people really don't like. It's much better in a carbine layout, the reset is kind of funky is my only real complaint, but I see why people using the handguns would fucking hate them.
1 month ago
Anonymous
I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who doesn't like the Ruger 5.7 trigger
>The P90 is literally FN's best-selling gun per their own sales department
It missed its window and FN doesn't have high sales in general.
It's a range toy.
https://i.imgur.com/jpCFjXx.jpg
Did the P90 actually have more stopping power than the MP5?
Stopping power is a meme for pistol cartridges, anon. But if you take it seriously the 9mm remains superior at stamping holes with "stopping power"
What really gets me, esp form seeing this photo, is that the p90 still looks futuristic. Sure it took 20-30 years but it looks like nothing was lost in terms of advancement.
Are you retarded? Depending on which estimate you believe it's either the Uzi (2 to 10 million) or PPSh-41 (5 to 6 million), with the STEN close behind (4 million).
Insofar as they used it, yes. I seem to recall it was a plot point that they could penetrate Jaffa armor, which they couldnt reliably do with the MP5s. Killing people can be considered an example of better stopping power than not killing them, though stopping power is kinda nebulous.
In gel tests 5.7 tends to tumble 1.5 times and stop with the projectile facing rearward at 12-16". That translates to serious yawing and from what testimony I've read from LEOs using 5.7 guns, it tends to leave extremely nasty wounds with the projectile staying inside the body, which obviously translates to 100% energy transfer.
>energy transfer is a meme
Anon if the bullet stops inside of the target then 100% of the kinetic energy of that bullet was transferred into the target. That's not a meme it's just physics. If the bullet goes through the target then, again according to the laws of physics, the bullet still had kinetic energy it did not transfer into the target.
I'm not saying that 5.7 is superior to 5.56 or 9mm, and I don't get why you have your hackles up about it so hard, I am merely describing the wounding properties of the round which differs significantly from those of 5.56 (high velocity fragmentation) or those of 9mm and similar pistol rounds (the bullet itself expands). The yaw effect of 5.7 and the fact that it appears to transfer all of its energy into targets via the lack of exit wounds, as well as real testimonials from LEOs using it on suspects, all suggest that it does more than simply "poke holes" as the anon I was replying to suggests. The round itself doesn't icepick was the point.
All spitzer bullets flip over in flesh. The only significant result is crushing a slightly larger wound path at the flipping point.
That's what icepicking means - a narrow tunnel-shaped wound cavity no larger than the round with negligible temporary cavity.
If I sit in the sunshine all afternoon and get full body energy coverage transfer, versus focusing a laser into one bodypart and burning it, it sums up to the same total energy. Energy transfer is worthless for measuring terminal ballistics at the small-arms level. What matters is what it does: the actual wound cavity.
>All spitzer bullets flip over in flesh
Some tip sooner or more reliably. 5.7 does both with pretty remarkable consistency. A lot of rounds notorious for icepicking do so because they don't yaw until they've gone the whole way through a body.
>The only significant result is crushing a slightly larger wound path at the flipping point. >slightly larger
An ss190 bullet is significantly longer than it is wide, anon. I would argue crushing out a wound cavity from .224" to .7" is more than "slight," considering gold standard 9mm ammo like Gold Dots or HSTs are on average going from .355" to .55" to .6" >That's what icepicking means - a narrow tunnel-shaped wound cavity no larger than the round with negligible temporary cavity
Oh like it goes straight through without tumbling?
>Energy transfer is worthless for measuring terminal ballistics at the small-arms level.
It's simply a characteristic of the round that it tends to dump all its kinetic energy into its targets because the bullet stops inside of them instead of blowing out the back. Again this is corroborated both in test mediums and in LEO testimony regarding its usage in DGUs. That's a desirable trait whether your black-and-white autism brain can comprehend it or not. >What matters is what it does: the actual wound cavity.
Yeah and actual test mediums show that 5.7 produces some pretty fucked up wound cavities anon, especially once you account for its capacity, size, and negligible recoil.
I can tell you've never shot any live meat with it.
The 198 tumbles. It doesnt leave a tiny hole, it doesn't fragment. It tumbles like crazy and leaves wild channels.
I shot a possum and it gave her a surprise abortion. The little critters that lived were squirming all around. All the raccoons I've shot with it died on the spot. Not so much with 9mm where the fuckers would run 50 feet into the brush before finally giving up.
>I can tell you've never shot any live meat with it.
He's never shot it period lol
I think 20 years of the guns and ammo being exclusive to one manufacturer and thus relatively expensive have set up a lot of people with extreme sour grapes regurgitated opinions about the caliber, and now that more and more manufacturers are picking up the round and making guns that shoot it, they're all stuck in boomer "it's basically centerfire .22mag!" mode because of some shit that got posted on arfcom while george w bush was the president that they've been regurgitating ever since.
The reality is that you can now get a solid 5.7 handgun for $400 and a solid 5.7 carbine for like $650, and the ammo itself is at parity with 5.56, meaning that the formerly valid "its advantages don't make up for the cost of entry" critiques are no longer valid and all they have left to cling to is the cognitive dissonance of easily disproved fuddlore developed as cope from people who didn't want to pay the cost to ride.
And full disclosure, I'm pretty new to 5.7, bought a PSA Rock and a Ruger LC Charger this year as prices have come down. Honestly the handgun I could take or leave but the round out of a carbine with a 10.5" barrel is fucking mean as fuck.
Don't know but you'll still want to unload into the threat until the threat is no longer a threat regardless of caliber. P90 wins in this case because that 50 round mag means more pew pew before empty.
For fighting heavily armoured Jaffa it's more about the armour penetration. And remember they were a 4-man force recon team so a lot of ammunition in a small and easily carried package was ideal for them. That's the reason for MP5s over M16s which you saw the other SG teams made up of full squads of marines using.
In the minds of the show's creators yes. And they looked cooler and more special forces like with them. They evidently had something vaguely resembling M16s lying around and chose the MP5 and then the P90 for a reason and that's more or less the likely logic.
Actually, they moved to P90s because the blanks ejected downward which meant they didn't get in the way of the camera nor did they end up hitting someone operating a camera in the face.
The stun guns from "Rules of Engagement" eventually got dished out to trainees and security forces, which makes a lot of sense because the stun guns don't kill people or vaporize the body in the second and third shot respectively. Both the MP-5 and Goa'uld stun version were both phased out over time.
Aren't you forgetting a few little things?
Like the casing & the powder. >9x19 average rounds per pound ~ 38.10 >5.56x45 average rounds per pound ~ 37.21
Bottom line a 9 30 rounder isn't that much different from a 5.56 30 rounder.
In the sense that 5.7 will penetrate body armor, and 9mm will pancake against it, yes. But a single 9mm round against soft tissue will do more damage than a skinny little 5.7 needle zipping through.
I've heard SOF guys say that with the MP7 you have to mag dump 10+ rounds into someone to drop them reliably and consistently (which isn't a big deal with low recoil + 1000rpm) using 4.6mm. I imagine 5.7 being pretty similar or very slightly more lethal since it has a wider diameter but similar muzzle energy.
I think that's kind of the point with guns like this. Bad guy extinguisher ala the American-180. Also lord help the poor medic trying to do something about that many wounds.
The p90 and the 5.7 round were made for breaking light plates and were immediately made useless when the soviets made titanium armor
So 5.7 is a dumb round that is too strong against unarmored people and too weak for armored ones
god i want 00s hairstyle and makeup to come back in vogue
i remember watching a blurry behind the scenes VHS bootleg with her hanging out in the set wearing lowrise jeans and holding a prop gun
i fapped so hard to that
> Lucy Lawless did her part to make me like them sporty
Hunchback
No thighs
Pointy elbow
How can you watch that show and pick her over the perfection right next to her.
>This was a show many parents let their sons watch.
I'll see your Gabrielle's thighs of steel and raise you Xena being 5'11.
Also Gabrielle weirded me out having the better physique, generally, but having a much too similar face to my fat music teacher. Lawless in the 90s was just nice to look at.
1 month ago
Anonymous
why did women have such big boobs in the 90's and 00's?
1 month ago
Anonymous
they didnt have massive gunts that stuck out further than their tits
>she's Canadian >Run "Tapping" through Anglo-detection shit
It's not worse, she's just a Brit with a North American accent.
It'd be worse if she were Quebecois.
Higher rate of fire, bigger magazine, ammo designed for armor penetration? Great. Would you rather be filled with 30 holes or 50 slightly smaller holes? This thread has autistic cancer.
If the NFA didn't exist I'd love a P90. Not because it's a great gun in general, but it's the most compact package you can get 50 rounds into. Be an ideal travel gun if you wanted more than a pistol in your luggage or whatever.
from google: >Ballistics of 5.7x28mm vs. 9mm. Something you'll notice is that the ballistics chart shows 9mm produces less muzzle velocity and greater muzzle energy than 5.7x28mm and maintains them both longer. So while the 9mm is a bit slower when it's fired, it doesn't lose velocity as quickly as the initially faster 5.7x28mm.
so if the target is right in front of you, the p90 is better, while the mp5's 9mm rounds retain their strength at greater distances.
If you're trying to use either further out than 100yds you should have brought a mk18 anyway, is the thing. These guns are for bad breath distance gunfights and like you said, at those distances the strengths of 5.7 shine.
>a round with worse sectional density, worse aerodynamics and much lower speed >maintains velocity and energy better than a spitzer >doubt >serious fucking doubt
Citations blease.
And they better not come from your buddy's blog.
No wait, I found your "citations".
Fucking Saul Goodman & co?
Checked the BBB by the way. Don't sound like their former customers like them very much. Serious AOL vibe.
It has better armor penetration, but IIRC "stopping power" and armor penning don't exactly go hand-in-hand, because something like FMJ or a hollow point will deform and tumble in flesh while AP will just go straight through doing minimal damage. Usually anyway, if it's something powerful enough it can usually mangle armor and flesh about as well, but you'll want a rifle size package for that.
No, field reports of use are pretty abysmal for 5.7 and 4.6, they were fielded by a good number of agencies and military units back in the 2000s and quickly fell out of favor outside of niche use situations. Effect on target is at best on par with 9mm and I've heard numerous complaints of even worse performance, particularly with the 4.6. The post barrier performance of the round is outright garbage. Overall it's a mistake of a round and I'd take a 9mm carbine or SMG over one any day of the week for anything other than varmiting(admittedly it offers better terminal performance on thin skinned small game).
The staff weapon has pretty much unlimited ammo though, making it much better for a guerilla force like the free Jaffa, so O'Neill was talking complete shit here.
The staff weapon would have been better on the condition that it was redesigned to fit in a package of similar size range of P-90 to M-16. The staff being a literal staff with no sights makes it objectively shit. It can't even shoot off bore like a wizard's staff and the fire rate is hot garbage.
Staff blaster tech peaked when it went from a big ass stick to a wrist mounted death hose and it still would've been better as a separate weapon in a PDW form factor with actual sights.
>intimidating, not accurate
Which is part of why it's a shit weapon, including for a guerilla force which the guy I replied to said it's be great for. Unlimited ammo doesn't mean shit if you don't have a solid fire rate and as guerillas a smaller concealable package is better. You cannot conceal a staff blaster when they are typically as tall as or taller than the jaffa wielding it.
The thing that always bugged me about the show is the SGC never seriously tried to reverse engineer the staff or reorganize it's parts to a smaller form factor even when they FINALLY had willing experts and an R&D team good enough to develop blaster proof armor inserts. Zats got that treatment but never staff blasters, not even from captured Kull warrior suits.
I´m with you abut it being a shitty weapon, but it was designed by narsissistic megalomaniac parasites, so as long as the rabble stays low, fine.
The second part is also puzzling. On weapons it was either we advance a little bit what we have (railguns on the BCs), or daddy Thor gifts.
Sci-fi writers, don´t expect much of them.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>Sci-fi writers, don´t expect much of them >asimov, clark, heinlein, niven
You can obviously do better but would rather hit the bong again and do nothing.
1 month ago
Anonymous
60071077
We are taking about TV.
The obsession with (You)s and trying to avoid "giving them" is obnoxious. It's like you desperately want to downvote but that's the best you've got.
1 month ago
Anonymous
This.
Only do it for bait which exploits the anonymous format, doing it for every post you don't like is trying to hard.
Isn't it in your Reddiquette to "remember the human"?
1 month ago
Anonymous
Here's yours.
This.
Only do it for bait which exploits the anonymous format, doing it for every post you don't like is trying to hard.
Isn't it in your Reddiquette to "remember the human"?
I acknowledge you as a valuable person and member of our board culture, you are cherished and welcomed! ...homosexual.
>The thing that always bugged me about the show is the SGC never seriously tried to reverse engineer the staff or reorganize it's parts to a smaller form factor
They were starting to develop energy weapons alongside other alien technology towards the end of the show. I think it's mostly because the writers wanted to keep things fairly grounded and not star trek, but you can't say it's dumb because reverse-engineering things that advanced would probably take more than 10 years, especially if you want to mass-manufacture it. Also, compared to developing FTL and a means of defending the whole planet, developing small arms was probably a low priority. The stuff they had was lethal enough and worked fine.
1 month ago
Anonymous
It was a bit weird, you'd think the Asgard would give them the details on a few guns at least after SG1 saved their ass multiple times.
1 month ago
Anonymous
You can absolutely say it's dumb when you already have the Tollan (a faction that even makes their own stargates) giving the SGC their entire technological catalogue at one point and several Tok'Ra with inbuilt knowledge of those weapons willing to share technological secrets as well. Towards the end of the show the Asgard had
1 month ago
Anonymous
Nobody else was really willing to share other than the asgard, who did at at the last episode of SG1, and their idea of infantry combat is beaming people into space.
Also, pretty sure the tollan got wiped out before they gave anything.
I think unlimited ammo definitely gives you a big advantage, even with the dubious design. Logistics is probably going to be your biggest problem when fighting a guerilla war and not having to worry about ammo gives you a big step up vs a weapon you need constant resupplies for.
sounds like a positive for the dealer, they need to keep up a relationship if they still want ammo and parts.
The fact that Earth weapons were far more effective in combat is just how you sell it to them.
The staff weapon would have been better on the condition that it was redesigned to fit in a package of similar size range of P-90 to M-16. The staff being a literal staff with no sights makes it objectively shit. It can't even shoot off bore like a wizard's staff and the fire rate is hot garbage.
Staff blaster tech peaked when it went from a big ass stick to a wrist mounted death hose and it still would've been better as a separate weapon in a PDW form factor with actual sights.
The point of the staff weapon was to be intimidating, not accurate. Light show weapons from the gods, to be used if the peasants get unrully.
I'm always a little sad they didn't have the effects budget to portray the staff weapons like they did in the movie, with plenty of dust and concussion, lots of shots of them blowing apart stone and armor with each hit.
>first episode has soldiers with m16s having to empty an entire magazine to kill a single armored jaffa. >throughout the entire series onwards you have soldiers with p90s mowing down whole squads of jaffas like butter
Yeah
Muh stopping power.
I think it delivers higher BCs, Higher RPMs, and Higher velocity. If all that translates in your mud brain to "Muh stoppin power" then OK.
I think I'd rather get hit with a 9mm than a 5.7. Speed can do a lot of damage to flesh, and 5.7s move fast as fuck out of a 10 inch barrel
so you're saying it has more DPS?
>muh all bullets have exactly the same terminal effects
(You) are a zoomer contrarian
Depends on the context and use. It was made to fire armor-piercing rounds foremost. The civilian-available soft-tissue variants were....disputable, and expensive.
Expected were similar fragmenting properties as that of a 5.56, but the jury is still out, the price point being a huge factor as to why 5.7 hasnt gained traction for decades.
Filling a threat with 5-7 hot bees will make the caliber dispute null at any rate.
Dorner proved that cm on an unarmored target is all you need
Gone but never cornered
Except that time he got turned into a BBQ'd cornered dormer that an hero'd himself.
this, 5.7's speed makes it zip through soft targets, making it expand less than 9mm. Think of this like the classic 45 vs 9mm argument, slower, larger bullet has more "stopping power" towards soft targets, but struggles against armor.
fragmentation anon
retard
I didnt say it couldnt kill or fragment, just that given 9mm's slower speed it'll more effectively fragment/expand on soft targets, aka have more stopping power like OP asked. It's a fine round that can still do the job, but thats not what OP was asking.
What's the story here? Cop?
He lived though, didn't he?
He survived after 2 intensive surgeries.
>implying nobody has ever survived 9mm and .45
he survived, your point is moot.
Iirc something like 60-70% of people shot once center mass with 9mm survive if they make it to a hospital
Carmela can you please close the woooound
>[surgical pump noises intensify]
Slower rounds with more momentum tend to icepick actually, fast light rounds, when designed right, rapidly dump energy through fragmentation or yaw
FORT HOOD
O
R
T
H
O
O
D
5.7 > 5.56
>MP5
>most popular SMG in the world, used (used to be used) by anone that mattered, only rivaled in popularity by the Uzi perhaps
>P90
>used mostly as a movie prop, some french police units and some thirdies
You be the judge
Good morning, Mr. Harrell. How's the hip feeling today?
>>used mostly as a movie prop, some french police units and some thirdies
>Meanwhile, in the real world, the United States Secret Service, several Fed LE agencies, and a ton of Police Depts and Sheriff's Depts:
The P90 is literally FN's best-selling gun per their own sales department
PROTIP: It's only gonna get more popular and common now that NATO finally formally adopted it, and the only reason they didn't do it 20 years ago was HK and the Krauts sperging the fuck out when 5.7 beat 4.6 in the PDW trials.
The MP5 still outnumbers it vastly, and it or other smgs of the same caliber will continue to do so, since no one carries a handgun in 5.7, a lot of servicemen, feds, officers and deputies carry one in 9mm, which matters, since even it it's now NATO standard, departments still don't want yet another caliber to worry about.
Cope more, it will always remain an unpopular nieche weapon, and that nieche is now primarily filled by SBRs or PCCs
>HK and the Krauts sperging the fuck out...
Good on them
>It's only gonna get more popular...
Lol, we will see (we won't)
>The MP5 still outnumbers it vastly
Yeah a 5 decade headstart and a major NATO supplier actively sabotaging adoption will do that lmao
Cost has always been the biggest barrier to entry for 5.7 as a round, mostly because for 20 years only FN made the ammo and only FN made the guns. Now neither is true, and again the NATO adoption is a bigger deal than you're really admitting here.
We will see, and I'm not gonna sit here and say it's going to phase out 9mm completely but I do think we're going to see a lot more modern PDWs going forward.
HK needs to admit defeat and just make an MP7 in 5.7. Same for B&T with the MP9.
>MP7 in 5.7
I recently picked up a Ruger LC Charger and really like the layout, which takes significant ergo cues from the MP7 IMO. If HK themselves don't do it then IMO a mil PDW with a very similar layout chambered in the adopted round is probably coming down the pipe lol. They would be retarded to leave money on the table and not just adapt the existing design to the better cartridge, but IMO their behavior throughout the entire PDW trial fiasco shows they're more than capable of being retarded lol.
I think in general it's probably accurate to say that the MP7 is the better gun, and 5.7 is the better cartridge. It should be a no brainer but mil procurement and logic very rarely go hand in hand
How is it? I want to get one and SBR it.
It fuckin rocks man, extremely compact, ideal ballistics for the round, been 100% reliable. The lack of handguard real estate made setting it up for nods kind of a pain but that's the case with all these tiny guns.
The lack of standard capacity mags is kind of a pain, it comes with one 20rd ruger mag, and new ones are $30-$40 a piece. BUT PSA rock mags work with it, I got a 10 pack for like $130, they're 23rds out of the box and +7 baseplates are readily available. I'm hoping either PSA or Ruger has 30rd factory mags coming down the pipe, seems like accessories are coming out at a good pace and I think a lot of people are picking them up.
The trigger is the same as the Ruger 57, which people really don't like. It's much better in a carbine layout, the reset is kind of funky is my only real complaint, but I see why people using the handguns would fucking hate them.
I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who doesn't like the Ruger 5.7 trigger
>Same for B&T with the MP9.
>B&T MP9 in 5.7
>Not in 7.5 Fk
You know, I'm way less disappointed in this idea than I thought I'd be.
MP9 in 7.5 Fk is still peak, tho.
>The P90 is literally FN's best-selling gun per their own sales department
It missed its window and FN doesn't have high sales in general.
It's a range toy.
Stopping power is a meme for pistol cartridges, anon. But if you take it seriously the 9mm remains superior at stamping holes with "stopping power"
>It missed its window
Missed your window, my window was just fine. Factory sight, ~135yrds kneeling, 8" plate..
Truly a weapon of war.
What really gets me, esp form seeing this photo, is that the p90 still looks futuristic. Sure it took 20-30 years but it looks like nothing was lost in terms of advancement.
>Most popular SMG in the world
Are you retarded? Depending on which estimate you believe it's either the Uzi (2 to 10 million) or PPSh-41 (5 to 6 million), with the STEN close behind (4 million).
Real Paul Harrel LOVES the 5.7 round
nogunz telling lies on the internet?
how rare!
Better question. Which one is more accurate?
>accurate
it's a submachine gun. You just hold the trigger in until the target stops moving.
Insofar as they used it, yes. I seem to recall it was a plot point that they could penetrate Jaffa armor, which they couldnt reliably do with the MP5s. Killing people can be considered an example of better stopping power than not killing them, though stopping power is kinda nebulous.
It was actually so they could kill the Unas lizard men on the goauld planet
GOOLD!?
I got the entire series on dvd a few months back and so far I'm on season 7, and Hammond has only said goold, at most, twice.
Elementary, my dear Watson.
GOOLD?
Probably not. It operates the same way - poking a hole. And the hole is smaller.
It doesn't fragment like a 556 does. A upgrade with EPR style bullets would be great. Liberty Defense made some for 4.6mm.
In gel tests 5.7 tends to tumble 1.5 times and stop with the projectile facing rearward at 12-16". That translates to serious yawing and from what testimony I've read from LEOs using 5.7 guns, it tends to leave extremely nasty wounds with the projectile staying inside the body, which obviously translates to 100% energy transfer.
Are you seriously raising the energy transfer meme? I thought that ignorant stupidity died out with the boomers. Maybe zoomerlore is resurrecting it.
Permanent wound cavity is 95% of terminal effect and temp cavity is the other 5%.
>energy transfer is a meme
Anon if the bullet stops inside of the target then 100% of the kinetic energy of that bullet was transferred into the target. That's not a meme it's just physics. If the bullet goes through the target then, again according to the laws of physics, the bullet still had kinetic energy it did not transfer into the target.
I'm not saying that 5.7 is superior to 5.56 or 9mm, and I don't get why you have your hackles up about it so hard, I am merely describing the wounding properties of the round which differs significantly from those of 5.56 (high velocity fragmentation) or those of 9mm and similar pistol rounds (the bullet itself expands). The yaw effect of 5.7 and the fact that it appears to transfer all of its energy into targets via the lack of exit wounds, as well as real testimonials from LEOs using it on suspects, all suggest that it does more than simply "poke holes" as the anon I was replying to suggests. The round itself doesn't icepick was the point.
All spitzer bullets flip over in flesh. The only significant result is crushing a slightly larger wound path at the flipping point.
That's what icepicking means - a narrow tunnel-shaped wound cavity no larger than the round with negligible temporary cavity.
If I sit in the sunshine all afternoon and get full body energy coverage transfer, versus focusing a laser into one bodypart and burning it, it sums up to the same total energy. Energy transfer is worthless for measuring terminal ballistics at the small-arms level. What matters is what it does: the actual wound cavity.
>All spitzer bullets flip over in flesh
Some tip sooner or more reliably. 5.7 does both with pretty remarkable consistency. A lot of rounds notorious for icepicking do so because they don't yaw until they've gone the whole way through a body.
>The only significant result is crushing a slightly larger wound path at the flipping point.
>slightly larger
An ss190 bullet is significantly longer than it is wide, anon. I would argue crushing out a wound cavity from .224" to .7" is more than "slight," considering gold standard 9mm ammo like Gold Dots or HSTs are on average going from .355" to .55" to .6"
>That's what icepicking means - a narrow tunnel-shaped wound cavity no larger than the round with negligible temporary cavity
Oh like it goes straight through without tumbling?
>Energy transfer is worthless for measuring terminal ballistics at the small-arms level.
It's simply a characteristic of the round that it tends to dump all its kinetic energy into its targets because the bullet stops inside of them instead of blowing out the back. Again this is corroborated both in test mediums and in LEO testimony regarding its usage in DGUs. That's a desirable trait whether your black-and-white autism brain can comprehend it or not.
>What matters is what it does: the actual wound cavity.
Yeah and actual test mediums show that 5.7 produces some pretty fucked up wound cavities anon, especially once you account for its capacity, size, and negligible recoil.
No it also slows down faster, transfering more energy when moving sideways through tissue.
It's how you can end up with temporary wound cavities that look like this.
I can tell you've never shot any live meat with it.
The 198 tumbles. It doesnt leave a tiny hole, it doesn't fragment. It tumbles like crazy and leaves wild channels.
I shot a possum and it gave her a surprise abortion. The little critters that lived were squirming all around. All the raccoons I've shot with it died on the spot. Not so much with 9mm where the fuckers would run 50 feet into the brush before finally giving up.
>I can tell you've never shot any live meat with it.
He's never shot it period lol
I think 20 years of the guns and ammo being exclusive to one manufacturer and thus relatively expensive have set up a lot of people with extreme sour grapes regurgitated opinions about the caliber, and now that more and more manufacturers are picking up the round and making guns that shoot it, they're all stuck in boomer "it's basically centerfire .22mag!" mode because of some shit that got posted on arfcom while george w bush was the president that they've been regurgitating ever since.
The reality is that you can now get a solid 5.7 handgun for $400 and a solid 5.7 carbine for like $650, and the ammo itself is at parity with 5.56, meaning that the formerly valid "its advantages don't make up for the cost of entry" critiques are no longer valid and all they have left to cling to is the cognitive dissonance of easily disproved fuddlore developed as cope from people who didn't want to pay the cost to ride.
And full disclosure, I'm pretty new to 5.7, bought a PSA Rock and a Ruger LC Charger this year as prices have come down. Honestly the handgun I could take or leave but the round out of a carbine with a 10.5" barrel is fucking mean as fuck.
It's going to have more depth of penetration so it's more likely to hit something vital than 9mm
Don't know but you'll still want to unload into the threat until the threat is no longer a threat regardless of caliber. P90 wins in this case because that 50 round mag means more pew pew before empty.
For fighting heavily armoured Jaffa it's more about the armour penetration. And remember they were a 4-man force recon team so a lot of ammunition in a small and easily carried package was ideal for them. That's the reason for MP5s over M16s which you saw the other SG teams made up of full squads of marines using.
A full mp5 magazine like less than 2oz lighter than a USGI 5.56 magazine. This is beyond fucking retard logic.
>Fighting unknown hyper advanced aliens
>Fighting other completely unknown threats
>Yeah, pistol rounds seem ideal
The MP5 itself is also smaller and lighter would have been the logic.
>The MP5 itself is also smaller and lighter
Seriously now?
In the minds of the show's creators yes. And they looked cooler and more special forces like with them. They evidently had something vaguely resembling M16s lying around and chose the MP5 and then the P90 for a reason and that's more or less the likely logic.
Accurate representation of Air Force procurement and logic.
Actually, they moved to P90s because the blanks ejected downward which meant they didn't get in the way of the camera nor did they end up hitting someone operating a camera in the face.
The MP5s that SG1 use are energy weapon based.
They took them from a group of Jaffa planning to infiltrate SG command.
The MP-5s SG-1 used were regular ass MP-5s.
The stun guns from "Rules of Engagement" eventually got dished out to trainees and security forces, which makes a lot of sense because the stun guns don't kill people or vaporize the body in the second and third shot respectively. Both the MP-5 and Goa'uld stun version were both phased out over time.
MP5 mags are lighter than a 5.56 mag?
Are you handicapped sir?
Let me make this easy for you...
115gr (more like 147 if you're using subs) vs 55gr
Now multiply that difference x30. MP5 mags are significantly heavier than 5.56 mags when loaded.
^ Which would only bolster your case, so you're actually even more right than you thought.
Aren't you forgetting a few little things?
Like the casing & the powder.
>9x19 average rounds per pound ~ 38.10
>5.56x45 average rounds per pound ~ 37.21
Bottom line a 9 30 rounder isn't that much different from a 5.56 30 rounder.
it probably goes through kevlar vests more effectively then any of the 9mm AP out there idk
In the sense that 5.7 will penetrate body armor, and 9mm will pancake against it, yes. But a single 9mm round against soft tissue will do more damage than a skinny little 5.7 needle zipping through.
I've heard SOF guys say that with the MP7 you have to mag dump 10+ rounds into someone to drop them reliably and consistently (which isn't a big deal with low recoil + 1000rpm) using 4.6mm. I imagine 5.7 being pretty similar or very slightly more lethal since it has a wider diameter but similar muzzle energy.
I think that's kind of the point with guns like this. Bad guy extinguisher ala the American-180. Also lord help the poor medic trying to do something about that many wounds.
The p90 and the 5.7 round were made for breaking light plates and were immediately made useless when the soviets made titanium armor
So 5.7 is a dumb round that is too strong against unarmored people and too weak for armored ones
>believing soviet propaganda
How much titanium armor did you see being used in Ukraine anon?
All of it.
>So 5.7 is a dumb round that is too strong against unarmored people
totally a retarded take by someone that's likely never shot one.
>commander, I really don't see how this "training" is relevant for the mission
>picture of sam
>read the text in Teal'cs voice
idk why hollywood keeps casting monotone aliens played by black dudes, and idk why they're consistently some of my favorite characters
>why
Save on makeup.
god i want 00s hairstyle and makeup to come back in vogue
i remember watching a blurry behind the scenes VHS bootleg with her hanging out in the set wearing lowrise jeans and holding a prop gun
i fapped so hard to that
sams short tomboy hair was very cute
would cuddle
Lucy Lawless did her part to make me like them sporty, Sam did her part to make me like the hair short and sporty.
The 90s made me like The Impossible Dyke.
> Lucy Lawless did her part to make me like them sporty
Hunchback
No thighs
Pointy elbow
How can you watch that show and pick her over the perfection right next to her.
>This was a show many parents let their sons watch.
I'll see your Gabrielle's thighs of steel and raise you Xena being 5'11.
Also Gabrielle weirded me out having the better physique, generally, but having a much too similar face to my fat music teacher. Lawless in the 90s was just nice to look at.
why did women have such big boobs in the 90's and 00's?
they didnt have massive gunts that stuck out further than their tits
They weren't men in the '90's.
>perfection right next to her
Gabs all the time, every time.
>Amanda Tapping
>Stars and Stripes
But Amanda Tapping is British.
Consider it payment for taking James Corden and leasing Piers Morgan off you guys' hands.
And that late night host guy I forgot his name.
She was born in Essex, England. So she's British.
Worse actually, she's Canadian
>she's Canadian
>Run "Tapping" through Anglo-detection shit
It's not worse, she's just a Brit with a North American accent.
It'd be worse if she were Quebecois.
Don't diss the place that gave us Christine Young, Lanny Barbie, the skidoo and the Huot machinegun.
leaves are better than bongs, give them credit for the honkocaust
>and kirk
>and macgyver
They all want to be American anyway.
Built for BBC (big burger cock)
my dick just twitched.
>not being fully erect for sam
gay
Its' been 2 decades of broadband driven desensitization since SG1 so what do you expect.
Bad Goould, need spaking.
She unfortunately hit the wall hard and fast, like most bong women do.
I mean avoiding the wall well into her 30's is a pretty good run, almost everyone goes to shit by 50 and a lot of women go to shit in their mid 20's
Higher rate of fire, bigger magazine, ammo designed for armor penetration? Great. Would you rather be filled with 30 holes or 50 slightly smaller holes? This thread has autistic cancer.
If the NFA didn't exist I'd love a P90. Not because it's a great gun in general, but it's the most compact package you can get 50 rounds into. Be an ideal travel gun if you wanted more than a pistol in your luggage or whatever.
from google:
>Ballistics of 5.7x28mm vs. 9mm. Something you'll notice is that the ballistics chart shows 9mm produces less muzzle velocity and greater muzzle energy than 5.7x28mm and maintains them both longer. So while the 9mm is a bit slower when it's fired, it doesn't lose velocity as quickly as the initially faster 5.7x28mm.
so if the target is right in front of you, the p90 is better, while the mp5's 9mm rounds retain their strength at greater distances.
If you're trying to use either further out than 100yds you should have brought a mk18 anyway, is the thing. These guns are for bad breath distance gunfights and like you said, at those distances the strengths of 5.7 shine.
>a round with worse sectional density, worse aerodynamics and much lower speed
>maintains velocity and energy better than a spitzer
>doubt
>serious fucking doubt
Citations blease.
And they better not come from your buddy's blog.
No wait, I found your "citations".
Fucking Saul Goodman & co?
Checked the BBB by the way. Don't sound like their former customers like them very much. Serious AOL vibe.
The Goa'uld had plate armour, so it makes sense to switch to 5.7mm.
It has better armor penetration, but IIRC "stopping power" and armor penning don't exactly go hand-in-hand, because something like FMJ or a hollow point will deform and tumble in flesh while AP will just go straight through doing minimal damage. Usually anyway, if it's something powerful enough it can usually mangle armor and flesh about as well, but you'll want a rifle size package for that.
Way better armor pen, stowpin pure is near impossible to measure and in general all pistol calibers are terrible.
No.
>underwhelming argument
And?
I love the idea of the p90 being designed specifically to go through serpent guard armor.
I feel so old.
He honestly looks better there than he did a few years back, he got really fat at one point.
It gets worse.
I liked that one. He was at least better than Biden.
>valeria
Was a dancer when she was cast as a thief. She was pretty hot back then. We are all King Ozymandias and then we age and die. It is The Way.
>9mm
No, field reports of use are pretty abysmal for 5.7 and 4.6, they were fielded by a good number of agencies and military units back in the 2000s and quickly fell out of favor outside of niche use situations. Effect on target is at best on par with 9mm and I've heard numerous complaints of even worse performance, particularly with the 4.6. The post barrier performance of the round is outright garbage. Overall it's a mistake of a round and I'd take a 9mm carbine or SMG over one any day of the week for anything other than varmiting(admittedly it offers better terminal performance on thin skinned small game).
>(admittedly it offers better terminal performance on thin skinned small game).
Goa'uld in shambles
>no love for Dr Frasier
Whats wrong with you people?
I dont remember this episode of SG1 but I wish I did
Came from a show after sg1, but don't remember what. Doc is still a total gilf.
I still would
Get in line.
need grandma milkies
brehs…
She looks a lot like Kim Cattral in that pic.
she has far less wrinkles
I almost dropped SG-1 after that one episode.
picrel
I'm not going take the time to figure out in what context this was posted, but this is based.
realistically, could a P90 destroy a log like that?
The staff weapon has pretty much unlimited ammo though, making it much better for a guerilla force like the free Jaffa, so O'Neill was talking complete shit here.
The staff weapon would have been better on the condition that it was redesigned to fit in a package of similar size range of P-90 to M-16. The staff being a literal staff with no sights makes it objectively shit. It can't even shoot off bore like a wizard's staff and the fire rate is hot garbage.
Staff blaster tech peaked when it went from a big ass stick to a wrist mounted death hose and it still would've been better as a separate weapon in a PDW form factor with actual sights.
The point of the staff weapon was to be intimidating, not accurate. Light show weapons from the gods, to be used if the peasants get unrully.
>intimidating, not accurate
Which is part of why it's a shit weapon, including for a guerilla force which the guy I replied to said it's be great for. Unlimited ammo doesn't mean shit if you don't have a solid fire rate and as guerillas a smaller concealable package is better. You cannot conceal a staff blaster when they are typically as tall as or taller than the jaffa wielding it.
The thing that always bugged me about the show is the SGC never seriously tried to reverse engineer the staff or reorganize it's parts to a smaller form factor even when they FINALLY had willing experts and an R&D team good enough to develop blaster proof armor inserts. Zats got that treatment but never staff blasters, not even from captured Kull warrior suits.
I´m with you abut it being a shitty weapon, but it was designed by narsissistic megalomaniac parasites, so as long as the rabble stays low, fine.
The second part is also puzzling. On weapons it was either we advance a little bit what we have (railguns on the BCs), or daddy Thor gifts.
Sci-fi writers, don´t expect much of them.
>Sci-fi writers, don´t expect much of them
>asimov, clark, heinlein, niven
You can obviously do better but would rather hit the bong again and do nothing.
The obsession with (You)s and trying to avoid "giving them" is obnoxious. It's like you desperately want to downvote but that's the best you've got.
This.
Only do it for bait which exploits the anonymous format, doing it for every post you don't like is trying to hard.
Isn't it in your Reddiquette to "remember the human"?
Here's yours.
I acknowledge you as a valuable person and member of our board culture, you are cherished and welcomed! ...homosexual.
>The thing that always bugged me about the show is the SGC never seriously tried to reverse engineer the staff or reorganize it's parts to a smaller form factor
They were starting to develop energy weapons alongside other alien technology towards the end of the show. I think it's mostly because the writers wanted to keep things fairly grounded and not star trek, but you can't say it's dumb because reverse-engineering things that advanced would probably take more than 10 years, especially if you want to mass-manufacture it. Also, compared to developing FTL and a means of defending the whole planet, developing small arms was probably a low priority. The stuff they had was lethal enough and worked fine.
It was a bit weird, you'd think the Asgard would give them the details on a few guns at least after SG1 saved their ass multiple times.
You can absolutely say it's dumb when you already have the Tollan (a faction that even makes their own stargates) giving the SGC their entire technological catalogue at one point and several Tok'Ra with inbuilt knowledge of those weapons willing to share technological secrets as well. Towards the end of the show the Asgard had
Nobody else was really willing to share other than the asgard, who did at at the last episode of SG1, and their idea of infantry combat is beaming people into space.
Also, pretty sure the tollan got wiped out before they gave anything.
>staff weapon was to be intimidating,
>this is a weapon of teara
I think unlimited ammo definitely gives you a big advantage, even with the dubious design. Logistics is probably going to be your biggest problem when fighting a guerilla war and not having to worry about ammo gives you a big step up vs a weapon you need constant resupplies for.
sounds like a positive for the dealer, they need to keep up a relationship if they still want ammo and parts.
The fact that Earth weapons were far more effective in combat is just how you sell it to them.
Yeah but good luck keeping a load of jaffa spread across the galaxy supplied
I'm always a little sad they didn't have the effects budget to portray the staff weapons like they did in the movie, with plenty of dust and concussion, lots of shots of them blowing apart stone and armor with each hit.
that exact point gets adressed in the episode btw
60071077
We are taking about TV.
Wound vectors
>first episode has soldiers with m16s having to empty an entire magazine to kill a single armored jaffa.
>throughout the entire series onwards you have soldiers with p90s mowing down whole squads of jaffas like butter
hmmm.... something.... something doesn't add up
The first two series pretty much got semi retconned. Same happened with the 3 shot disintegration zats
>he still believes in the stopping power myth
ngmi.