It’s common for people to run Glocks 50k+ rounds before cleaning them or replacing any parts, DASA guns require more frequent cleaning and maintenance. >superior in every single way
belongs alongside >billions must die
Exceedingly cringe
[...]
Here’s a video where Ben talks about multiple Glocks with 50-80k rounds each: https://youtu.be/MmU2mtaLLgw?si=RigPbxqb5i9i0jit
I own more than half a dozen Glocks and various hammer-fired guns as well as other striker-fired guns. I prefer hammer-fired guns without a doubt, but it’s completely false that they’re superior in every way. If I hated cleaning guns I would shoot my striker fired guns—I have more than 10k on two glocks, nothing crazy, but I haven’t cleaned them internally. I never post my guns on PrepHole, that’s retarded, I hope you realize this website is not run or modded by people who like you or I.
Striker vs hammer has nothing to do with SA or DA
correct
cringe, your "ExTrA fAiLuRe PoInT" is literally one metal shelf.
Im all for SA/DA but "superior in every way" simply isnt correct
But admittedly there aren't many beyond that. He's technically correct, but the way development has gone, it's overwhelmingly the case that strikers tend to be "SA" (or close enough to think about it like that in practical terms) and autoloaders with hammers tend to usually only be SAO or DA/SA.
As far as cleaning between the two types, I don't think operating principle has as much to do with it as much as it is manufacturing tolerances.
>"superior in every way" simply isnt correct
Name one concrete way in which they aren't superior other than "I'm too fucking stupid to do a single DA pull"
>they don't weighT less
isn't an argument of inferiority, if anything it's an argument of parity, and you've failed to give concrete examples that one is inherently heavier than the other.
>and have more parts to maintain
Having more parts is additionally neither an argument of superiority or inferiority; to claim so is like claiming a Model-T is better than a Ferrari or an F-35 because it has fewer parts.
It’s common for people to run Glocks 50k+ rounds before cleaning them or replacing any parts, DASA guns require more frequent cleaning and maintenance. >superior in every single way
belongs alongside >billions must die
Exceedingly cringe
I'm calling bullshit. Extractor and recoil springs start to wear out at around 10k rounds. Not to the point that the gun is inoperable, but they aren't as reliable anymore. Even Chrome- silicone springs are only rated for 100k compression cycles.
Here’s a video where Ben talks about multiple Glocks with 50-80k rounds each: https://youtu.be/MmU2mtaLLgw?si=RigPbxqb5i9i0jit
I own more than half a dozen Glocks and various hammer-fired guns as well as other striker-fired guns. I prefer hammer-fired guns without a doubt, but it’s completely false that they’re superior in every way. If I hated cleaning guns I would shoot my striker fired guns—I have more than 10k on two glocks, nothing crazy, but I haven’t cleaned them internally. I never post my guns on PrepHole, that’s retarded, I hope you realize this website is not run or modded by people who like you or I.
>I never post my guns on PrepHole, that’s retarded, I hope you realize this website is not run or modded by people who like you or I
In other words, you don't own any guns. We're on lists already, doesn't matter.
I'm calling bullshit. Extractor and recoil springs start to wear out at around 10k rounds. Not to the point that the gun is inoperable, but they aren't as reliable anymore. Even Chrome- silicone springs are only rated for 100k compression cycles.
Watch the Ben Stoeger vid, also 50k isn’t even unusual, any duty grade striker gun should be able to handle that without cleaning or maintenance, Stoeger also has a PDP with 50+K before requiring spring replacement
?si=CnPWc01qrXDD6POE
I'm far from the only one who's worn out glock parts. They're good, accurate, and reliable guns. But everything wears out, and if I'm seeing malfunctions on a steady diet of 124 grain +p or roughly NATO spec, between 10-15k rounds and new OEM magazines, I'm skeptical of the people who claim to have managed to go through several times that with no maintenance and no malfunctions. I've gone about 2k rounds between cleanings until the gun wouldn't cycle reliably, so I made a point to clean at every thousand. it was also my carry gun at the time, so all of the lint and sweat may have compounded the issue as far as dirtiness.
Even with all that, my 17 never became what I'd call unreliable because it would still be a few hundred rounds between stoppages when it was getting up there.
DO NOT BUY DA/SA
They all blow up within 3000 rounds
This is my 4th Beretta and they all fail consistently at 3K rounds. Just ask Ben Stoeger.
The Performance versions also BLOW UP and crack frames at 1.5K rounds.
DO NOT BUY THESE, LEAVE THEM FOR ME OKAY
P30SK is a very good gun. Massively overbuilt. Familiar mechanics and operation. Redundant safeties between the manual lever and the ability to carry with the hammer down. Only about 10% bigger all around than the smallest P365 model for similar capacity.
Better than the regular HK hammer fired triggers IMO, which are the worst on average of any trigger I’ve tried, period, never shot a double action micro compact though
I may butcher this so don't jump down my throat if I don't get all the technical shit 100% right.
tl;dr is it gives you a DA/SA handgun with the restrike capability that entails, while eliminating the heavy weight of the first round pull (and letting every trigger pull including the first all be the same weight), but maintaining an aspect of safety by instead keeping the first round pull very long.
At the base of the hammer there's a separate spring-loaded cocking piece that stores most of the spring energy that a first round DA pull would usually incur. When you pull the trigger for the first shot, the hammer starts down and you are cocking the hammer with the pull, but it's a very light spring until the hammer meets the cocking piece and trips a sear holding it, releasing the hammer with full impact force while still giving you the light SA-esque pull.
For some people it's just too weird, but once I got my hands on one and familiarized myself with it I think it's the absolute best carry trigger, and a great middle ground between DA/SA hammer guns and SAO striker guns.
Walther's AS system on the P99 is very similar in practice, however I believe HK provides the LEM setting as a safe-to-carry option while Walther still recommends carrying with the heavy true-DA pull.
I'd try and seek one out then, you might like it. Pretty sure there's companies that sell aftermarket trigger upgrades specifically for LEM models as well to improve the qualities a little but but tbh I didn't think it was that terrible out of the gate, but I'm also not a trigger snob. Yeah nothing beats a true SAO though.
FWIW, my P99AS has probably one of the best striker triggers I've ever felt. Another option I'd recommend looking into if the LEM/AS concept appeals to you at all, but they may get harder to find as Walther has discontinued the base P99AS, and I'm not sure if they're still in the production run for the "Final Edition" one or if that one has since ceased too.
I'm calling bullshit. Extractor and recoil springs start to wear out at around 10k rounds. Not to the point that the gun is inoperable, but they aren't as reliable anymore. Even Chrome- silicone springs are only rated for 100k compression cycles.
This is what stank for me. Like yeah it's okay to say that a gun can run that long assuming replacement of wear items like springs, but to make a blanket statement like that leading the assumption that the gun is all original is pretty disingenuous.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>Pretty sure there's companies that sell aftermarket trigger upgrades specifically for LEM models
I know that Langdon does and they are pretty well regarded. And I think its an "official" thing with HK like they do with Beretta too.
That's the beauty of the P30 WITHOUT the LEM. You have a manual safety so
you can carry it with the hammer cocked, but you also have a decocker button that you can use to drop the hammer without touching the trigger or switching off the safety. Not that the P30 has anything even close to a 1911 trigger, but the LEM to me feels like the worst of both worlds in that the pull is still mushier than the regular trigger in SA, and it also lacks the redundancy of a manual safety. The LEM always struck me as being largely marketed towards agencies that mandated a certain minimum trigger pull weight in all cases, or to Glock guys who didn't like to carry a gun with a manual safety at all. If you're comfortable being cocked and locked in your holster, just get the standard DA/SA.
I think the P2000 still is but in small numbers. Likely the only reason is because its on the cali handgun registry. Same reason Glock still sells new Gen 3's.
P2000 is sill manufactured but not as much as the P30. It's still in HKs catalog anyways. P30 seems nice but for a carry option it's in a weird spot between compact and full size. I thought about the P30 but ultimately didn't because I found the grip too long (compare the 2 and a G19 on handgunhero and see). Oh, and the P2000 can still be found for cheap-ish and shares mags with the USPc. For me, I figure I can always trade up to the USPc but so far the P2000 is a great piece
PX4 has a better trigger than the USP, from what I heard the HK DA/SA triggers don't really get much better. The PX4 will have a better aftermarket trigger with the LTT TJIAB w/ Match Hammer. I don't think any DA/SA can be better than a Beretta Match Hammer w/ some short reset trigger bar.
The PX4 is probably the most underrated 9mm pistol in history. Maybe not the BEST, but definitely the most underrated, and the best bang for your buck of anything.
Also, DA/SA is God tier. Only brainless orcs are incapable of learning to shoot anything more challenging than striker-fired.
My brother’s friend’s uncle’s boyfriend was in the army and he said Berettas are disposable and make great hammers. I love them so much I just buy another every 3k rounds right before it breaks
Think of it like a manual transmission: it's a little more work and you need practice to get good but you can get a lot more out of DA/SA once you know what you're doing.
In the same way people for whom driving is a chore prefer automatics, people who are purely owning a gun for it's defensive utility will probably prefer something as dead simple as "pull trigger, go bang" with no fiddly bits.
As someone who carries both and drives both, do what you like.
The manual transmission of handguns is probably something manual operated like a Welrod or SAA.
I feel like the better automotive comparison for DA/SA and SAO would be to carbureted vs. fuel injected, mechanical vs. electronic throttle, or some combination therein.
You don't get anything out of a DA/SA that you don't also get out of a striker gun except additional complication.
A manual transmission lets you dynamically exchange acceleration for total power on command and has at least a marginal skillset that has to be built to be able to operate the vehicle in any capacity.
A DA/SA just gives you a long first trigger pull and an additional switch to flick before holstering in exchange for an additional degree of safety against snagging the trigger.
The paddles are just the user interface. Think of it like the manual of arms. The actual transmission can be several different things which is more akin to the actual mechanical operating system of the gun.
Lots of types of transmissions (all automatics) can have paddle shifters. Most are DCTs but some are traditional torque converter automatics like any old car. In either case paddle shifters give you roughly the same control over the car as manual transmissions and both aren't valid comparisons to DA/SA vs striker.
I like a lot of DA/SA guns and own more than a few but unless you are concerned that you will accidentally pull the trigger, there isn't any gain over strikers practically speaking.
to the above comments, HK hasn't discontinued a handgun since P7 series. They still make all the variants of USP and USP Compact, HK45 and HK45C, P30 of various sizes, P2000, MK23, VP9/SFP9 of various sizes, etc. Some get produced in smaller batches annually, but they all are still getting made.
ok but cops and mil are the ones that set requirements for gun designs. they are the reason that the 1911 has a grip safety and the hi power has the magazine disconnect. if manual decocking was how you were supposed to use the gun then why did they make decocker models later?
Cops choose off the shelf configurations or very minor modifications in the few cases they're putting in a big order, and historically they've just had revolvers with inherent idiotproofing. The military aren't allowed to carry with a loaded chamber and you'll notice those two particular requirements are very specifically geared towards avoiding people ignoring that and shooting themselves anyway. They literally can not be trusted to manually decock a weapon.
1 month ago
Anonymous
yeah so the procedure was probably to carry with an empty chamber and then if you don't have time to unload the gun when you're done to engage the manual safety. if you're using it like that then the double action is pointless.
My Beretta 84BB was used as a police sidearm in Europe and the manual says to lower hammer with thumb. Same as my CZ75. The OG army manual for the 1911 says to carry loaded, hammer down as well.
It’s the perfect safety for a concealed carry, there are no additional steps to fire that require any fine motor skills, and the heavier trigger pull makes it near impossible to accidentally fire the gun. In any actual serious defensive shooting, the different trigger pills are either going to be completely trained out, or something you won’t even consciously notice when you’re busy magdumping into a crackhead
No, I want DA/SA because the guns I like are DA/SA. I also like the peace of mind of having a visible hammer and a heavy first trigger pull on my carry gun, so I can both visually confirm that the trigger isn’t being snagged while holstering, and have a heavy enough pull to ensure that if it is, it will be difficult for me to accidentally fire my gun.
I don’t see any quantifiable disadvantage to DA/SA that would ever actually matter in a defensive shooting, but there are clear benefits in safety compared to the more common striker fired guns that are currently popular
No, I want DA/SA because the guns I like are DA/SA. I also like the peace of mind of having a visible hammer and a heavy first trigger pull on my carry gun, so I can both visually confirm that the trigger isn’t being snagged while holstering, and have a heavy enough pull to ensure that if it is, it will be difficult for me to accidentally fire my gun.
I don’t see any quantifiable disadvantage to DA/SA that would ever actually matter in a defensive shooting, but there are clear benefits in safety compared to the more common striker fired guns that are currently popular
I’ll also add that I prefer DA/SA, particularly when it has a manual safety, for target pistols. Not all of my guns live in holsters, and having a manual safety available means I can safely leave the gun unholstered pretty much wherever I want without any risk of accidentally firing. Even though it would be very unlikely, I wouldn’t be comfortable doing the same with a gun like a glock
No, I want DA/SA because the guns I like are DA/SA. I also like the peace of mind of having a visible hammer and a heavy first trigger pull on my carry gun, so I can both visually confirm that the trigger isn’t being snagged while holstering, and have a heavy enough pull to ensure that if it is, it will be difficult for me to accidentally fire my gun.
I don’t see any quantifiable disadvantage to DA/SA that would ever actually matter in a defensive shooting, but there are clear benefits in safety compared to the more common striker fired guns that are currently popular
how come the only common argument to come out of the DA/SA push on PrepHole is 'safety'? specifically safety when holstering. the only time a trigger is going to 'snag' when holstering is if you have a warped to shit leather holster and the stars align perfectly to fuck you over. I've shot da/sa and striker fired pistols in uspsa and i gotta tell you i don't feel any particularly difference between the two.
I don’t think there’s really any specific advantage of DA/SA, it’s just that it’s an inherently safer system that doesn’t have any appreciable disadvantages. Some people also argue that hammer fired guns just have nicer triggers in general
1 month ago
Anonymous
imo its a peace of mind thing. It gives you peace of mind similar to a manual safety without preventing you from firing the gun. Sure you could get a DAO but that's less fun to shoot at the range
how about you have piece of mind knowing shit doesn't go off on its own assuming its built correctly.
1 month ago
Anonymous
DA/SA are still cool and viable, but striker fired guns definitely pushed them to the wayside. Still love my Wilson combat 92g centurion though
If there’s no real appreciable disadvantage for defensive shooting I don’t see why it’s any issue at all. It’s the same shit as striker fired, but safer. I really fail to see an issue
I’ll also state that the striker guns I do own I actually specifically get models with manual safeties. The gun is still perfectly safe to carry with that safety disengaged, but with the safety engaged the gun is safe to handle and store outside of the holster. I think that the adamant hatred of safeties on guns is really something that’s pointless, and I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of manufacturers backpedal this with the p320 fiasco
1 month ago
Anonymous
the glock has never had a safety and it has a fantastic track record.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Of nds sure
1 month ago
Anonymous
>making things up because you simply dont like striker pistols
1 month ago
Anonymous
>What are police logs
1 month ago
Anonymous
I’m not denying this, but DA/SA is still an inherently safer system. I don’t have anything against glocks, I just prefer the additional redundant safety provided by DA/SA guns, considering they don’t really have any meaningful detriment to the gun
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
the disadvantage is that typically they have decockers instead of safeties, which means that short of walking around with the hammer cocked back, your first shot and 2nd/3rd shot typically break/impact differently. I don't hate safeties on guns, but to pretend that trigger safeties + hard kydex holsters isn't modern doctrine for good reason is silly. Though I really don't care what other people do.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
When I say that there isn’t an appreciable disadvantage for defensive shooting, I’m acknowledging the differing trigger pulls. My point is that it’s superior to a manual safety which would require fine motor skills to disengage, while still being safer than a traditional trigger safety. In a defensive shooting you probably wouldn’t even think about the different trigger pulls, you’d just be point shooting at the crackhead trying to eat your brain, and in situations where you have more time to draw, where fine motor skills and precision could matter, you’d have time to cock the hammer
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
This
Shooting at paper, at distances vastly superior to typical self defense ranges and at a much slower rythm influenced much of the gun culture. In such conditions, yeah having a different trigger pull between the #1 and #2 shots is an issue for most people, including me. But when we're talking about magdumping a jogger at close range it all doesn't matter. Too many people have a hard time pulling decent double taps, let alone more - and they should work on that instead of caring for the trigger weight and the size of their groups at 15-25 yards.
imo its a peace of mind thing. It gives you peace of mind similar to a manual safety without preventing you from firing the gun. Sure you could get a DAO but that's less fun to shoot at the range
I'm taking the DA pill, if only for those sweet, sweet SA follow up shots. How many dry fire cycles did it take for you guys to stop shanking rounds low on the DA pull for small targets out past 15y?
I'll never get to the skill level but I'll always remember that one paul video shooting subcompacts and his groups were the tightest on the DA/SA cause he cocked for every shot and that just left an impression on me. Nice middle ground between the piece of mind of a double action trigger plus a smooth single action when you want it too, wish more tiny guns were it cause revolvers are meh and ppks could be smaller.
I don't feel unsafe with striker guns. I'll stick a glock in my pants no problem. I just hate the shitty trigger on them. Glocks are especially bad but most striker guns have horrible triggers.
Complexity/failure point
post guns
K
Striker vs hammer has nothing to do with SA or DA
Im all for SA/DA but "superior in every way" simply isnt correct
>Striker vs hammer has nothing to do with SA or DA
Any DASA striker fired guns?
P99
But admittedly there aren't many beyond that. He's technically correct, but the way development has gone, it's overwhelmingly the case that strikers tend to be "SA" (or close enough to think about it like that in practical terms) and autoloaders with hammers tend to usually only be SAO or DA/SA.
As far as cleaning between the two types, I don't think operating principle has as much to do with it as much as it is manufacturing tolerances.
Theres that Walther and Google tells me the Tara TM9
>"superior in every way" simply isnt correct
Name one concrete way in which they aren't superior other than "I'm too fucking stupid to do a single DA pull"
They don't weight less and have more parts to maintain. Try to argue this one you fucking retard.
>they don't weighT less
isn't an argument of inferiority, if anything it's an argument of parity, and you've failed to give concrete examples that one is inherently heavier than the other.
>and have more parts to maintain
Having more parts is additionally neither an argument of superiority or inferiority; to claim so is like claiming a Model-T is better than a Ferrari or an F-35 because it has fewer parts.
>incendiary topic
>mass replies to the first 5 posts
yep, its a slide thread
At least it killed a ukraine thread
correct
cringe, your "ExTrA fAiLuRe PoInT" is literally one metal shelf.
>complexity
Stupid people shouldn't own guns. This is why Glock/Sig leg is a thing.
>Stupid people shouldn't own guns
Stop attacking our boys in blue
So you use muskets?
It’s common for people to run Glocks 50k+ rounds before cleaning them or replacing any parts, DASA guns require more frequent cleaning and maintenance.
>superior in every single way
belongs alongside
>billions must die
Exceedingly cringe
HK has a USP thats gone 180k rounds you dumb glocksucker
People have done more than 500k rounds on Glocks without failure
May we see it?
I'm calling bullshit. Extractor and recoil springs start to wear out at around 10k rounds. Not to the point that the gun is inoperable, but they aren't as reliable anymore. Even Chrome- silicone springs are only rated for 100k compression cycles.
>It’s common for people to run Glocks 50k+ rounds before cleaning them or replacing any parts
kek
Here’s a video where Ben talks about multiple Glocks with 50-80k rounds each: https://youtu.be/MmU2mtaLLgw?si=RigPbxqb5i9i0jit
I own more than half a dozen Glocks and various hammer-fired guns as well as other striker-fired guns. I prefer hammer-fired guns without a doubt, but it’s completely false that they’re superior in every way. If I hated cleaning guns I would shoot my striker fired guns—I have more than 10k on two glocks, nothing crazy, but I haven’t cleaned them internally. I never post my guns on PrepHole, that’s retarded, I hope you realize this website is not run or modded by people who like you or I.
>I never post my guns on PrepHole, that’s retarded
you do not own guns
>I never post my guns on PrepHole, that’s retarded, I hope you realize this website is not run or modded by people who like you or I
In other words, you don't own any guns. We're on lists already, doesn't matter.
50K+? Bullshit.
Watch the Ben Stoeger vid, also 50k isn’t even unusual, any duty grade striker gun should be able to handle that without cleaning or maintenance, Stoeger also has a PDP with 50+K before requiring spring replacement
50,000 rounds with no cleaning or maintenance is an absolute bullshit statistic, not even MK23 was tested to such thresholds.
I counter with this video.
?si=CnPWc01qrXDD6POE
I'm far from the only one who's worn out glock parts. They're good, accurate, and reliable guns. But everything wears out, and if I'm seeing malfunctions on a steady diet of 124 grain +p or roughly NATO spec, between 10-15k rounds and new OEM magazines, I'm skeptical of the people who claim to have managed to go through several times that with no maintenance and no malfunctions. I've gone about 2k rounds between cleanings until the gun wouldn't cycle reliably, so I made a point to clean at every thousand. it was also my carry gun at the time, so all of the lint and sweat may have compounded the issue as far as dirtiness.
Even with all that, my 17 never became what I'd call unreliable because it would still be a few hundred rounds between stoppages when it was getting up there.
>common for people to run Glocks 50k+
90% of gun owners will never fire this many rounds period, let alone in a single gun, let alone without cleaning
rounds
bullshit; try 5to 10k
I have never been to a shoot where at least one glock didn't have at least one stoppage, usually multiple do. Striker fire is simply a bad design.
Funny way to spell LEM
Fuck ya mudda
DO NOT BUY DA/SA
They all blow up within 3000 rounds
This is my 4th Beretta and they all fail consistently at 3K rounds. Just ask Ben Stoeger.
The Performance versions also BLOW UP and crack frames at 1.5K rounds.
DO NOT BUY THESE, LEAVE THEM FOR ME OKAY
almost got me you cocksucker
im gonna get ANOTHER Beretta and you cant stop me
what an ugly gun
seethe
ok, then shill me a SA/DA carry gun
been looking at cz75 variants, HK sa/das, and px4s so far
P30SK is a very good gun. Massively overbuilt. Familiar mechanics and operation. Redundant safeties between the manual lever and the ability to carry with the hammer down. Only about 10% bigger all around than the smallest P365 model for similar capacity.
QRD on LEM trigger? Whats its deal? How does it work? Is it any good?
Better than the regular HK hammer fired triggers IMO, which are the worst on average of any trigger I’ve tried, period, never shot a double action micro compact though
It's polarizing.
I may butcher this so don't jump down my throat if I don't get all the technical shit 100% right.
tl;dr is it gives you a DA/SA handgun with the restrike capability that entails, while eliminating the heavy weight of the first round pull (and letting every trigger pull including the first all be the same weight), but maintaining an aspect of safety by instead keeping the first round pull very long.
At the base of the hammer there's a separate spring-loaded cocking piece that stores most of the spring energy that a first round DA pull would usually incur. When you pull the trigger for the first shot, the hammer starts down and you are cocking the hammer with the pull, but it's a very light spring until the hammer meets the cocking piece and trips a sear holding it, releasing the hammer with full impact force while still giving you the light SA-esque pull.
For some people it's just too weird, but once I got my hands on one and familiarized myself with it I think it's the absolute best carry trigger, and a great middle ground between DA/SA hammer guns and SAO striker guns.
Walther's AS system on the P99 is very similar in practice, however I believe HK provides the LEM setting as a safe-to-carry option while Walther still recommends carrying with the heavy true-DA pull.
Thanks Anon. That sounds pretty cool. In a perfect world I'd like SAO cocked and locked but it seems that isn't very common anymore outside of 1911's.
I'd try and seek one out then, you might like it. Pretty sure there's companies that sell aftermarket trigger upgrades specifically for LEM models as well to improve the qualities a little but but tbh I didn't think it was that terrible out of the gate, but I'm also not a trigger snob. Yeah nothing beats a true SAO though.
FWIW, my P99AS has probably one of the best striker triggers I've ever felt. Another option I'd recommend looking into if the LEM/AS concept appeals to you at all, but they may get harder to find as Walther has discontinued the base P99AS, and I'm not sure if they're still in the production run for the "Final Edition" one or if that one has since ceased too.
This is what stank for me. Like yeah it's okay to say that a gun can run that long assuming replacement of wear items like springs, but to make a blanket statement like that leading the assumption that the gun is all original is pretty disingenuous.
>Pretty sure there's companies that sell aftermarket trigger upgrades specifically for LEM models
I know that Langdon does and they are pretty well regarded. And I think its an "official" thing with HK like they do with Beretta too.
That's the beauty of the P30 WITHOUT the LEM. You have a manual safety so
you can carry it with the hammer cocked, but you also have a decocker button that you can use to drop the hammer without touching the trigger or switching off the safety. Not that the P30 has anything even close to a 1911 trigger, but the LEM to me feels like the worst of both worlds in that the pull is still mushier than the regular trigger in SA, and it also lacks the redundancy of a manual safety. The LEM always struck me as being largely marketed towards agencies that mandated a certain minimum trigger pull weight in all cases, or to Glock guys who didn't like to carry a gun with a manual safety at all. If you're comfortable being cocked and locked in your holster, just get the standard DA/SA.
>Only about 10% bigger all around than the smallest P365 model
Except in the one dimension that actually matters.
HK P2000. Glock 19 sized and just a hair heavier
what exactly is the difference between the p2000 and p30?
p30 is currently being manufactured and thus easier to obtain
I think the P2000 still is but in small numbers. Likely the only reason is because its on the cali handgun registry. Same reason Glock still sells new Gen 3's.
Californians should kill themselves
P2000 is sill manufactured but not as much as the P30. It's still in HKs catalog anyways. P30 seems nice but for a carry option it's in a weird spot between compact and full size. I thought about the P30 but ultimately didn't because I found the grip too long (compare the 2 and a G19 on handgunhero and see). Oh, and the P2000 can still be found for cheap-ish and shares mags with the USPc. For me, I figure I can always trade up to the USPc but so far the P2000 is a great piece
PX4 has a better trigger than the USP, from what I heard the HK DA/SA triggers don't really get much better. The PX4 will have a better aftermarket trigger with the LTT TJIAB w/ Match Hammer. I don't think any DA/SA can be better than a Beretta Match Hammer w/ some short reset trigger bar.
sig sauer p228
The PX4 is probably the most underrated 9mm pistol in history. Maybe not the BEST, but definitely the most underrated, and the best bang for your buck of anything.
Also, DA/SA is God tier. Only brainless orcs are incapable of learning to shoot anything more challenging than striker-fired.
I almost got one, but they had a S9A1 on sale for 100 cheaper right next to it
Luv me DA/SA
Luv me M9
Simple as.
p99c
1911 in officer model. Also fuck garden gnomes and gays. Christ is king
Arex Zero, they are very affordable too.
It's also a good filter since dumb fuckers get confused by it's """"complexity"""" apparently
Even as a novice shooter I never understood why people were confused
No it's not.
>jams ur exposed external hammer
How?
My brother’s friend’s uncle’s boyfriend was in the army and he said Berettas are disposable and make great hammers. I love them so much I just buy another every 3k rounds right before it breaks
That or true double action striker. Either is good.
Think of it like a manual transmission: it's a little more work and you need practice to get good but you can get a lot more out of DA/SA once you know what you're doing.
In the same way people for whom driving is a chore prefer automatics, people who are purely owning a gun for it's defensive utility will probably prefer something as dead simple as "pull trigger, go bang" with no fiddly bits.
As someone who carries both and drives both, do what you like.
Anon comparing da/sa to a manual transmission is retarded.
The manual transmission of handguns is SAO
That's still a bad comparison
The manual transmission of handguns is probably something manual operated like a Welrod or SAA.
I feel like the better automotive comparison for DA/SA and SAO would be to carbureted vs. fuel injected, mechanical vs. electronic throttle, or some combination therein.
You don't get anything out of a DA/SA that you don't also get out of a striker gun except additional complication.
A manual transmission lets you dynamically exchange acceleration for total power on command and has at least a marginal skillset that has to be built to be able to operate the vehicle in any capacity.
A DA/SA just gives you a long first trigger pull and an additional switch to flick before holstering in exchange for an additional degree of safety against snagging the trigger.
I'm thinking of automatic vs those cars with the paddle shifters or some shit. Sequential something?
The paddles are just the user interface. Think of it like the manual of arms. The actual transmission can be several different things which is more akin to the actual mechanical operating system of the gun.
Lots of types of transmissions (all automatics) can have paddle shifters. Most are DCTs but some are traditional torque converter automatics like any old car. In either case paddle shifters give you roughly the same control over the car as manual transmissions and both aren't valid comparisons to DA/SA vs striker.
I like a lot of DA/SA guns and own more than a few but unless you are concerned that you will accidentally pull the trigger, there isn't any gain over strikers practically speaking.
>but you can get a lot more out of DA/SA once you know what you're doing.
this is an argument you made up entirely in your head. you cant even tell me what 'more' you're getting out of da/sa
I prefer DAO because I hate having a different trigger pull between the first and second shot.
to the above comments, HK hasn't discontinued a handgun since P7 series. They still make all the variants of USP and USP Compact, HK45 and HK45C, P30 of various sizes, P2000, MK23, VP9/SFP9 of various sizes, etc. Some get produced in smaller batches annually, but they all are still getting made.
And it seems like the VP9 is the only one getting factory updates. LTT guns aside, the VP9 is so far the only lineup that has a factory RDS option.
DA/SA/TA is superior in every single way
what is the point of da/sa that doesn't have a decocker? manual decocking is not a designed function so what does that make the da feature for?
You carefully let the hammer down with your thumb, anon
can you show me a manual of arms from any police department or military that instructs you to manually decock a da/sa handgun?
Cop and mil instructions are written with literal mouth breathers in mind anon.
ok but cops and mil are the ones that set requirements for gun designs. they are the reason that the 1911 has a grip safety and the hi power has the magazine disconnect. if manual decocking was how you were supposed to use the gun then why did they make decocker models later?
Cops choose off the shelf configurations or very minor modifications in the few cases they're putting in a big order, and historically they've just had revolvers with inherent idiotproofing. The military aren't allowed to carry with a loaded chamber and you'll notice those two particular requirements are very specifically geared towards avoiding people ignoring that and shooting themselves anyway. They literally can not be trusted to manually decock a weapon.
yeah so the procedure was probably to carry with an empty chamber and then if you don't have time to unload the gun when you're done to engage the manual safety. if you're using it like that then the double action is pointless.
My Beretta 84BB was used as a police sidearm in Europe and the manual says to lower hammer with thumb. Same as my CZ75. The OG army manual for the 1911 says to carry loaded, hammer down as well.
>2 trigger pulls
Stupid.
Skill issue
skill issue
It’s the perfect safety for a concealed carry, there are no additional steps to fire that require any fine motor skills, and the heavier trigger pull makes it near impossible to accidentally fire the gun. In any actual serious defensive shooting, the different trigger pills are either going to be completely trained out, or something you won’t even consciously notice when you’re busy magdumping into a crackhead
the perfect safety is a kydex retention holster. you want DA/SA because you want to be different.
you WANT to be different. functionality plays a very distant second.
No, I want DA/SA because the guns I like are DA/SA. I also like the peace of mind of having a visible hammer and a heavy first trigger pull on my carry gun, so I can both visually confirm that the trigger isn’t being snagged while holstering, and have a heavy enough pull to ensure that if it is, it will be difficult for me to accidentally fire my gun.
I don’t see any quantifiable disadvantage to DA/SA that would ever actually matter in a defensive shooting, but there are clear benefits in safety compared to the more common striker fired guns that are currently popular
Nah but he's right you know
I’ll also add that I prefer DA/SA, particularly when it has a manual safety, for target pistols. Not all of my guns live in holsters, and having a manual safety available means I can safely leave the gun unholstered pretty much wherever I want without any risk of accidentally firing. Even though it would be very unlikely, I wouldn’t be comfortable doing the same with a gun like a glock
how come the only common argument to come out of the DA/SA push on PrepHole is 'safety'? specifically safety when holstering. the only time a trigger is going to 'snag' when holstering is if you have a warped to shit leather holster and the stars align perfectly to fuck you over. I've shot da/sa and striker fired pistols in uspsa and i gotta tell you i don't feel any particularly difference between the two.
I don’t think there’s really any specific advantage of DA/SA, it’s just that it’s an inherently safer system that doesn’t have any appreciable disadvantages. Some people also argue that hammer fired guns just have nicer triggers in general
how about you have piece of mind knowing shit doesn't go off on its own assuming its built correctly.
If there’s no real appreciable disadvantage for defensive shooting I don’t see why it’s any issue at all. It’s the same shit as striker fired, but safer. I really fail to see an issue
I’ll also state that the striker guns I do own I actually specifically get models with manual safeties. The gun is still perfectly safe to carry with that safety disengaged, but with the safety engaged the gun is safe to handle and store outside of the holster. I think that the adamant hatred of safeties on guns is really something that’s pointless, and I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of manufacturers backpedal this with the p320 fiasco
the glock has never had a safety and it has a fantastic track record.
Of nds sure
>making things up because you simply dont like striker pistols
>What are police logs
I’m not denying this, but DA/SA is still an inherently safer system. I don’t have anything against glocks, I just prefer the additional redundant safety provided by DA/SA guns, considering they don’t really have any meaningful detriment to the gun
the disadvantage is that typically they have decockers instead of safeties, which means that short of walking around with the hammer cocked back, your first shot and 2nd/3rd shot typically break/impact differently. I don't hate safeties on guns, but to pretend that trigger safeties + hard kydex holsters isn't modern doctrine for good reason is silly. Though I really don't care what other people do.
When I say that there isn’t an appreciable disadvantage for defensive shooting, I’m acknowledging the differing trigger pulls. My point is that it’s superior to a manual safety which would require fine motor skills to disengage, while still being safer than a traditional trigger safety. In a defensive shooting you probably wouldn’t even think about the different trigger pulls, you’d just be point shooting at the crackhead trying to eat your brain, and in situations where you have more time to draw, where fine motor skills and precision could matter, you’d have time to cock the hammer
This
Shooting at paper, at distances vastly superior to typical self defense ranges and at a much slower rythm influenced much of the gun culture. In such conditions, yeah having a different trigger pull between the #1 and #2 shots is an issue for most people, including me. But when we're talking about magdumping a jogger at close range it all doesn't matter. Too many people have a hard time pulling decent double taps, let alone more - and they should work on that instead of caring for the trigger weight and the size of their groups at 15-25 yards.
imo its a peace of mind thing. It gives you peace of mind similar to a manual safety without preventing you from firing the gun. Sure you could get a DAO but that's less fun to shoot at the range
I'm taking the DA pill, if only for those sweet, sweet SA follow up shots. How many dry fire cycles did it take for you guys to stop shanking rounds low on the DA pull for small targets out past 15y?
Not many and DA dry fire is super easy since you don't need to rack the slide to practice it.
Getting over the subconscious aversion of the explosion in your hand is harder than the DA pull
I always carry 1911 style. Hammer cocked, safety on. Switching the safety off happens during my draw.
I'll never get to the skill level but I'll always remember that one paul video shooting subcompacts and his groups were the tightest on the DA/SA cause he cocked for every shot and that just left an impression on me. Nice middle ground between the piece of mind of a double action trigger plus a smooth single action when you want it too, wish more tiny guns were it cause revolvers are meh and ppks could be smaller.
I like it
HAMMER TIME
yes
DA/SA are still cool and viable, but striker fired guns definitely pushed them to the wayside. Still love my Wilson combat 92g centurion though
Striker fire is usually plastic soulless garbage. Thats why I like DA/SA better.
I don't feel unsafe with striker guns. I'll stick a glock in my pants no problem. I just hate the shitty trigger on them. Glocks are especially bad but most striker guns have horrible triggers.
Strikers are for retards and women. Literally it's female cops are why strikers were pushed.