Could France have stood alone against Germany in WWI if for whatever reason the UK never entered the war either because they didn't care or Germa...

Could France have stood alone against Germany in WWI if for whatever reason the UK never entered the war either because they didn't care or Germany never went through the Low Countries?

  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Probably not, they could have held out by staying on the defensive but without the British Navy fucking up German imports, and without the Germans resorting to Unrestricted Submarine Warfare to fuck up the British and accidentally getting the Americans involved, they wouldn't be able to stop the Germans from absolutely fucking them up once the Russians were dealt with
    They would still be able to hold out for a very long time though, at least to 1918 and probably longer

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >They would still be able to hold out for a very long time though, at least to 1918 and probably longer
      Agree with everything else but not this. The miracle on the Marne was the result of British presence for a start. More importantly French command at the start of the war was attrocious. To be fair, nobody's brass was great (Von Molke Jr was having a nervous breakdown) and the Commander of the BEF hated the French with a passion Englishmen reserve for the French (though he actually made a lot of almost prescient calls), and then there's the absolutely hopeless Austrians and the Russian only marginally better.

      BUT, German field commanders were top notch, where French field commanders were largely energetic bloviating idiots.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        This reeks of Tuchman and while I enjoyed Guns of August greatly, you're overselling German sophistication and underselling French adaptability.

        The French would have adapted eventually. Even with a Marne loss, the French would have held on and not lost the center of the country - the only eventual difference would be that trench lines would have been much closer to Paris.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      A purely Germany-France war where Germany doesn't go through Belgium would have been very different.

      Pros for Germany :

      As this anon said , a large part of Germany's defeat was due to economic collapse : too many men on the front, too many men in factories, not enough men in the fields, not enough imports reaching the ports.

      If you don't have that blockade, Germany imports more food. Domestic prices still rise but far less so the people aren't as angry.
      This also mean that Germany can mobilize even more men, as domestic food production isn't as critical to prevent starvation. Doing would have triggered another spike in domestic prices but less so than "there's just not enough reaching us !".

      The simple lack of troops from the British Empire means France has to raise 8 millions more men since they aren't coming from overseas.
      France was spent despite having the 8 millions soldiers from the British Empire.
      It would not have found 8 millions men over 5 years, especially since it would have burned through what it had more quickly.

      There's also the issue of the USA, which provided 4 millions men.
      Even if they only came at the very end, it was the last straw that broke the German camel's exhausted back.
      If you say there wouldn't have been a need for so many americans, fine.
      But France would still have lacked a lot of well-equiped divisions.

      Pros for France :

      The Germans don't go through Belgium.
      That means a much narrower front, which means you can hold easier to your ground.
      It also means that most of France's industrial ressources are still into France's hands.
      We have a French army which is better equiped but lack the raw manpower to go on the offensive.

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Assuming that Belgian sovereignty is respected and Britain says out of the way entirely, the war would probably be completely different so it is hard to say. The western front would probably be a lot more static and then there would be a negotiated peace after Russia collapses.
    Remember, no Britain means no embargo on shipping to Germany from America, which means no famine in late 1917 and 1918 and no economic collapse. It also means no communist mutiny leading to the German Revolution because the navy wouldn't have been mauled at Jutland and the sailors would be less grumpy.
    You'd also have weird stuff like Italy probably staying out of the war entirely and the Ottoman Empire not collapsing and maybe taking over parts of the Caucasus. Finally, No america because they don't need to guarantee their loans by deciding the outcome of the war in favor of their debtor.

    So long story short, I think that France would not be able to defeat Germany on its own because the British Navy played such an important role on the economic side of things.

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Anglo-Japanese Alliance should have been maintained and strengthened

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They evaluated it but following the Japanese chimp out with the racial equality cause determined they were better off with the Americans

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Japs chimp out about flavors of yellow
        >Go with fully segregated America instead
        There's a lot of irony here that I gotta unpack

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          No, the Japanese chimped about America and the UK not wanting a racial equality clause in the league charter or some such

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Thought it was Japan trying legal shenanigans with China that caused that shit to dissolve

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Not exactly. Mostly the Japs just got repeatedly fucked over by the British and Americans, first with the post-WWI peace deals and then with the Washington Naval Treaty. That's part of what started them down the road to going full bananas in the 30's, they essentially lost any respect they had for the western imperial powers and the international system of the time.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              It was the Canadians more than anything as they were unwilling to fight a war with the US. I think understandable given their position.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Always knew the perfidious Canadian was up to no good on the world stage.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This
      just two colonialist naval empires, running the world

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Could France have stood alone against Germany in WWI
    they certainly had the numbers that if determined, make it excessively costly for the invader

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >they certainly had the numbers that if determined, make it excessively costly for the invader
      But their primary goal in WWI was retaking Alscace. They would have had to be the ones on the attack if they wanted to sue for peace and get anything out of it

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They wanted to avoid the war in the first place. Even more w/o the support of the brits.

        Not at all. The BEF actually played a pretty pivotal role in the Battle of the Marne, despite its small size. The Royal Navy also crippled the Germany economy through blockade, and by 1917 the British Army was equal in size and strength to the French army, and holding down half the line.

        It played a pivotal role because the French were counting on them. Even the French mobilization plan were limited counting on Brits to fill the gap.
        Marne would probably not even happened if the French didn't attack so fiercely (i.e. not being in position of advantage which being at war w/o the Brits would be).

        I'd think they would ultimately lose the war because French industry couldn't match German one w/o any support and attritionnal warfare would be very much in favour of the Germans.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >They wanted to avoid the war in the first place.

          What? French revanchism was extremely strong and they were eternally salty about Alsace.

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    most of the soldiers defending the french part of the front line were french anyways so this isn't even a hypothetical. eventually i guess the germans might overrun the french after beating russia but it wouldn't be the swift victory they wanted.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Not at all. The BEF actually played a pretty pivotal role in the Battle of the Marne, despite its small size. The Royal Navy also crippled the Germany economy through blockade, and by 1917 the British Army was equal in size and strength to the French army, and holding down half the line.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      the only thing about the battle of the Marne is that it was kind of depended on the German advance through Belgium, and if they had tried to advance into France through Champagne it wouldn't have been as smooth up until that point. The French may have still been destroyed in an equivalent battle, though.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    UGHHH... A eastern europe free from Russia. Ukraine, Belarus, baltics and more, all free from Russia, and with time they'll likely be entirely independent once they get on their feet.

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No and UK would have lost the war because an hegemon in Europe would have fucked them silly

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nope, bad demographics+Germany getting hurt the worst because of the blockade. People always underestimate the blockade.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Germany getting hurt the worst because of the blockade. People always underestimate the blockade.
      The UK not joining the war means no blockade.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Possibly. The thing that decided WW1 in the side of France was American industry/funding and later troops. Without these supporting the Allied Powers, France and Brit would have pulled out or collapsed sooner.

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