Defense news are saying the program aims to replace both the Blackhawk and the Apache, with FARA (a subsidiary program) finding a successor to the Kiowa Warrior.
Looks like they want the escort to have the same speed and maneuverability as the utility craft to not bottleneck either helo.
They're somewhat confused. The whole FVL/JMR/BBQ mess has not exactly been straightforward. The original JMR program planned to replace both the Blackhawk and the Apache. However, the actual procurement program, FLRAA, is primarily to replace the Blackhawk. FARA is to produce a faster, up-armed Kiowa replacement that can carry something like half the payload of an Apache (which means that it can be used as an attack helicopter in a pinch, and probably will be at some point). There currently is no program of record to replace the Apache, which will likely continue to receive upgrades for at least another 10-20 years. There really isn't much money left to spare for an Apache replacement right now compared to other priorities, and most Apaches have been re-manufactured into the E model within the last decade, so they're not in critical need of replacement right now.
>They're somewhat confused. The whole FVL/JMR/BBQ mess has not exactly been straightforward. The original JMR program planned to replace both the Blackhawk and the Apache. However, the actual procurement program, FLRAA, is primarily to replace the Blackhawk. FARA is to produce a faster, up-armed Kiowa replacement that can carry something like half the payload of an Apache (which means that it can be used as an attack helicopter in a pinch, and probably will be at some point). There currently is no program of record to replace the Apache, which will likely continue to receive upgrades for at least another 10-20 years. There really isn't much money left to spare for an Apache replacement right now compared to other priorities, and most Apaches have been re-manufactured into the E model within the last decade, so they're not in critical need of replacement right now.
This, thanks for making the effortpost to try to educate people anon.
I can see FARA replacing the Apache in the future, after the 10-20 years. Both reporters and representatives seem to think so, even if the latter aren't explicit about it. The role of attack helis will probably be reduced by the F-35B's deployment by then anyway.
Listen to what the Army says instead of defense journalists. FARA is meant to replace both the Kiowa and the Apache, since the Apache has been filling in for the Kiowa in the wake of its retirement. That being said, the Valor will probably get an armed variant a la DAP Blackhawks.
It won't even do that
its just another gay fraud program to steal taxes
you cant put that thing in a place a blackhawk can go
I don't see why not, commonality should primarily focus on the propulsion but the body can likely be modified. I think people look at the CGI that's literally just the troop carrier version with missiles on it and think that's what the attack variant will look like, hence the weirdness about it not looking "purpose built"
I think any potential loss of maneuverability and increase in size is worth it for the massive boost in range and speed. Helicopters in peer environments already have to fly extremely low and use terrain for cover before launching long range munitions. The range and speed would allow you to base these assets further away from the things that will kill them, which is increasingly shit like spammable cheap ass drones. If you can increase your basing options and limit the number of threats you have to worry about by being far as fuck away it makes you just a bit safer. There really should be a navalized attack/recon version to replace to seahawks when they're ready to retire tbh.
>CGI that's literally just the troop carrier version with missiles on it and think that's what the attack variant will look like
picrel, lolwut
from the same article >Another way to save both money and time in both production and maintenance is having multiple types of aircraft with common parts. Bell’s model here is its work on the Marine Corps AH-1Z gunship and UH-1Y transport, which have totally different roles and very different shapes but share 84 percent of their spare parts. The company wants to do the same thing for its V-280 variants.
Interesting.
I know jackshit about helicopters, but it would be cool if they implemented nacelles with a wider ranger of movement (and potentially a different CoM) so you could tilt the fuselage down on a hover.
Oh shit I didn't know they were going that far with the commonality. It makes sense from a cost perspective but I'm pretty against trying to make a one size fits all option after the F-35 meme, not that the F-35 sucks just there were consequences of that decision that led to compromises in all of the variants. I kinda envisioned using all the same propulsion and parts but having distinct fuselages. Since the attack variant wouldn't need all the internal volume for people and cargo it could be trimmed down a bit, sleeker and maybe incorporate some LO shaping features. Doing this looks like they could probably get massive payloads though, it would pretty pretty fucking effective if one attack variant could pack double the load of hellfires of JAGM
Awesome video. That was 10 years ago though, they might have given up on the idea now that they've actually designed and prototyped it. Most of the newer demonstration models don't have a gun.
Mil might not want to spend the weight on a gun anymore since they're envisioning attack choppers never getting into LOS and instead being purely shooters in the sensor/shooter paradigm since they're so inherently vulnerable. Only time a gun is useful is if you're in the sandbox smacking people who literally can't shoot back and then you can just carry a gunpod.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Considering just the likelihood of getting involved in some insurgency, or at least needing an aircraft that can provide cover to disembarking troops, I think they will have a gun.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
I'm impressed you managed to miss the entire second half of the second sentence about a gunpod instead of having integral weight that can't be more missiles in a useful situation.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yeah yeah, but no. The valor frame wouldn't support a gunpod. The inability to aim it would make it next to useless. There's also no place on the frame for it. An integral, nose mounted gun is the only way to have a gun.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yeah. The tilt-rotor design is not conducive to a moving gun anyway, not even door guns. Against an insurgency, Apache and FARA especially will suffice for a hybrid scouting/opportunistic attack role. RIP Kiowa, you were always the baddest.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
The problem is those choppers couldn't keep up with the valor. They wouldn't be able to support it on missions. The valor needs a version with its own gun to do that.
aside from dunking on derkas, does a cannon really have much of a use on a modern battlefield?
don't you want to be blasting dudes from maximum range with missiles anyway?
FARA even downgraded the cannon from the Apache 30mm to 20mm, Kiowa only had the one M2 though. Higher rate of fire with more ammo is the way to go IMO, there are some Afghanistan Apache videos where it takes almost direct hits to do perceptible damage to guys.
>does a cannon really have much of a use on a modern battlefield?
Dunking on Russians. They're not too different from each other.
i mean if you're in range to brrt people with your gun that probably means you're also in range of them shooting manpads at you
so not a problem with derkas but probably a problem with people who might conceivably shoot back
Speed. She's much faster. That's how it got the V-280 name. Helicoptercucks just can't compete with tiltchads. Stealthier in some cases since you can't really figure out where it is by ear (the sound travels vertically on either side instead of horizontally all around)
No >the Marine Corps’ MV-22 Osprey has a lower mishap rate per 100,000 flight hours than the Harrier, Super Hornet, F-35B, or CH-53E Super Stallion >In the 33 years since the Osprey started flying, 51 service members have died in crashes. In the first 33 years the H-60 Black Hawk flew, more than 180 American service members and civilians died in non-combat-related crashes
The flies their Ospreys so often that accidents do happen on a somewhat frequent basis, but on a per flight hour basis, it's the safest helicopter in the US inventory by a mile despite being operated by the Muhreens.
Speed is useless for attack helos
You need highly nimble aircraft that can exploit terrain
Mi24 and Havoc are fast and they are absolute shit because they rely on speed instead of terrain
This thing will be worse than Hinds
about 40 million allegedly for a V-280. Might come down too considering for a full Blackhawk replacement you're talking thousands of airframes and even a partial is still probably thousands of airframes so you get the economy of scale benefits. I don't know what the UH-60 costs exactly but last I remember was around 10 million or so but can easily go up depending on the variant. Generally more expensive but they're getting a shitload of capability in terms of speed and range relative to a conventional helicopter
It is, but even a new-build Blackhawk is a lot more expensive than the originals were. Inflation and expensive sensors/avionics have dramatically driven the price up. If you're stuck with paying lots of extra money anyways, you might as well get something decent out of it.
Captcha: N0P2W. Rather fitting, but modern warfare *is* P2W to some extent.
Why did they narrow the fuselage before the tail? Wouldnt that fuck with the Longeron design?
Its a copy of the export version of the blackhawk. I think the U.S. gave some away to china at some point in the 70s. But its a copy of the s70 than the uh60.
offtopic cause FARA, not FLRAA, but the Bell 360 Invcitus has a side-stick cyclic/joystick like an Airbus. The goofy A-10-style throttle is probably a stand-in. Verbally confirmed by Keith Flail in the DefAeroReport video.
>Muh steam gauges and soft buttons
Literally the worst interfaces ever designed. Touchscreens aren't much better but at least you can operate the fucking thing without spending 3 years memorizing menu layering
Keith himself said it's for the pilots of tomorrow. Should have been for the pilots of yesterday, MFDs look like an absolute nightmare.
Here's the V-280 cockpit.
There are some types of screens that will still work if they were punctured, but it seems total instrument failure is just going to be a constant concern in the future. >if they're good enough for astronauts and the F-35, they're good enough for Army aviation
>1 bullet hits the screen. >You now have zero access to any of your instruments.
Wtf are they supposed to do if the screen malfunctions! It all or nothing.
I think they're less fuel efficient in hover mode then a traditional design for a dip sonar, but that doesn't matter if you want them to just chuck wireless sonars into the water and they're obviously far faster and more fuel efficient when traveling, so I'd say they're better.
Its not meant to replace the apache. Its meant to replace the black hawk from a logistical standpoint.
Defense news are saying the program aims to replace both the Blackhawk and the Apache, with FARA (a subsidiary program) finding a successor to the Kiowa Warrior.
Looks like they want the escort to have the same speed and maneuverability as the utility craft to not bottleneck either helo.
the escort will still be slower due to all the munition's it's carrying
They're somewhat confused. The whole FVL/JMR/BBQ mess has not exactly been straightforward. The original JMR program planned to replace both the Blackhawk and the Apache. However, the actual procurement program, FLRAA, is primarily to replace the Blackhawk. FARA is to produce a faster, up-armed Kiowa replacement that can carry something like half the payload of an Apache (which means that it can be used as an attack helicopter in a pinch, and probably will be at some point). There currently is no program of record to replace the Apache, which will likely continue to receive upgrades for at least another 10-20 years. There really isn't much money left to spare for an Apache replacement right now compared to other priorities, and most Apaches have been re-manufactured into the E model within the last decade, so they're not in critical need of replacement right now.
>They're somewhat confused. The whole FVL/JMR/BBQ mess has not exactly been straightforward. The original JMR program planned to replace both the Blackhawk and the Apache. However, the actual procurement program, FLRAA, is primarily to replace the Blackhawk. FARA is to produce a faster, up-armed Kiowa replacement that can carry something like half the payload of an Apache (which means that it can be used as an attack helicopter in a pinch, and probably will be at some point). There currently is no program of record to replace the Apache, which will likely continue to receive upgrades for at least another 10-20 years. There really isn't much money left to spare for an Apache replacement right now compared to other priorities, and most Apaches have been re-manufactured into the E model within the last decade, so they're not in critical need of replacement right now.
This, thanks for making the effortpost to try to educate people anon.
I can see FARA replacing the Apache in the future, after the 10-20 years. Both reporters and representatives seem to think so, even if the latter aren't explicit about it. The role of attack helis will probably be reduced by the F-35B's deployment by then anyway.
Listen to what the Army says instead of defense journalists. FARA is meant to replace both the Kiowa and the Apache, since the Apache has been filling in for the Kiowa in the wake of its retirement. That being said, the Valor will probably get an armed variant a la DAP Blackhawks.
It's barely any bigger.
I see we learned nothing from the Hind
what's wrong with the hind?
It won't even do that
its just another gay fraud program to steal taxes
you cant put that thing in a place a blackhawk can go
>you cant put that thing in a place a blackhawk can go
Its not like helicopters are meant to go tight places
God I hope not
mybe
Probably
I don't see why not, commonality should primarily focus on the propulsion but the body can likely be modified. I think people look at the CGI that's literally just the troop carrier version with missiles on it and think that's what the attack variant will look like, hence the weirdness about it not looking "purpose built"
I think any potential loss of maneuverability and increase in size is worth it for the massive boost in range and speed. Helicopters in peer environments already have to fly extremely low and use terrain for cover before launching long range munitions. The range and speed would allow you to base these assets further away from the things that will kill them, which is increasingly shit like spammable cheap ass drones. If you can increase your basing options and limit the number of threats you have to worry about by being far as fuck away it makes you just a bit safer. There really should be a navalized attack/recon version to replace to seahawks when they're ready to retire tbh.
>CGI that's literally just the troop carrier version with missiles on it and think that's what the attack variant will look like
picrel, lolwut
from the same article
>Another way to save both money and time in both production and maintenance is having multiple types of aircraft with common parts. Bell’s model here is its work on the Marine Corps AH-1Z gunship and UH-1Y transport, which have totally different roles and very different shapes but share 84 percent of their spare parts. The company wants to do the same thing for its V-280 variants.
Interesting.
I know jackshit about helicopters, but it would be cool if they implemented nacelles with a wider ranger of movement (and potentially a different CoM) so you could tilt the fuselage down on a hover.
Oh shit I didn't know they were going that far with the commonality. It makes sense from a cost perspective but I'm pretty against trying to make a one size fits all option after the F-35 meme, not that the F-35 sucks just there were consequences of that decision that led to compromises in all of the variants. I kinda envisioned using all the same propulsion and parts but having distinct fuselages. Since the attack variant wouldn't need all the internal volume for people and cargo it could be trimmed down a bit, sleeker and maybe incorporate some LO shaping features. Doing this looks like they could probably get massive payloads though, it would pretty pretty fucking effective if one attack variant could pack double the load of hellfires of JAGM
>no 30mm
This ain't replacing shit
Does have one. It's actually a laser beam or some shit.
?t=55
Awesome video. That was 10 years ago though, they might have given up on the idea now that they've actually designed and prototyped it. Most of the newer demonstration models don't have a gun.
Mil might not want to spend the weight on a gun anymore since they're envisioning attack choppers never getting into LOS and instead being purely shooters in the sensor/shooter paradigm since they're so inherently vulnerable. Only time a gun is useful is if you're in the sandbox smacking people who literally can't shoot back and then you can just carry a gunpod.
Considering just the likelihood of getting involved in some insurgency, or at least needing an aircraft that can provide cover to disembarking troops, I think they will have a gun.
I'm impressed you managed to miss the entire second half of the second sentence about a gunpod instead of having integral weight that can't be more missiles in a useful situation.
Yeah yeah, but no. The valor frame wouldn't support a gunpod. The inability to aim it would make it next to useless. There's also no place on the frame for it. An integral, nose mounted gun is the only way to have a gun.
Yeah. The tilt-rotor design is not conducive to a moving gun anyway, not even door guns. Against an insurgency, Apache and FARA especially will suffice for a hybrid scouting/opportunistic attack role. RIP Kiowa, you were always the baddest.
The problem is those choppers couldn't keep up with the valor. They wouldn't be able to support it on missions. The valor needs a version with its own gun to do that.
aside from dunking on derkas, does a cannon really have much of a use on a modern battlefield?
don't you want to be blasting dudes from maximum range with missiles anyway?
FARA even downgraded the cannon from the Apache 30mm to 20mm, Kiowa only had the one M2 though. Higher rate of fire with more ammo is the way to go IMO, there are some Afghanistan Apache videos where it takes almost direct hits to do perceptible damage to guys.
>Higher rate of fire with more ammo is the way to go IMO
I have a suggestion
i mean if you're in range to brrt people with your gun that probably means you're also in range of them shooting manpads at you
so not a problem with derkas but probably a problem with people who might conceivably shoot back
>does a cannon really have much of a use on a modern battlefield?
Dunking on Russians. They're not too different from each other.
They should mount a 30mm on each engine nacelle.
besides range, does it have any advantages over an Apache?
Speed. She's much faster. That's how it got the V-280 name. Helicoptercucks just can't compete with tiltchads. Stealthier in some cases since you can't really figure out where it is by ear (the sound travels vertically on either side instead of horizontally all around)
Doesn't it crash constantly?
No
>the Marine Corps’ MV-22 Osprey has a lower mishap rate per 100,000 flight hours than the Harrier, Super Hornet, F-35B, or CH-53E Super Stallion
>In the 33 years since the Osprey started flying, 51 service members have died in crashes. In the first 33 years the H-60 Black Hawk flew, more than 180 American service members and civilians died in non-combat-related crashes
>33 years since the Osprey started flying
Fucking hell, it still feels it came out yesterday
The flies their Ospreys so often that accidents do happen on a somewhat frequent basis, but on a per flight hour basis, it's the safest helicopter in the US inventory by a mile despite being operated by the Muhreens.
Speed is useless for attack helos
You need highly nimble aircraft that can exploit terrain
Mi24 and Havoc are fast and they are absolute shit because they rely on speed instead of terrain
This thing will be worse than Hinds
That's the replacement for the UH60? It somehow looks considerably more expensive.
about 40 million allegedly for a V-280. Might come down too considering for a full Blackhawk replacement you're talking thousands of airframes and even a partial is still probably thousands of airframes so you get the economy of scale benefits. I don't know what the UH-60 costs exactly but last I remember was around 10 million or so but can easily go up depending on the variant. Generally more expensive but they're getting a shitload of capability in terms of speed and range relative to a conventional helicopter
It is, but even a new-build Blackhawk is a lot more expensive than the originals were. Inflation and expensive sensors/avionics have dramatically driven the price up. If you're stuck with paying lots of extra money anyways, you might as well get something decent out of it.
Captcha: N0P2W. Rather fitting, but modern warfare *is* P2W to some extent.
No and who says it's meant to?
Why not pick Ospreys to replace the Hawks??
Valor is direct upgrade from Osprey
this is like saying the M16 is a direct upgrade from the BAR
ospreys are fucking expensive
Because Hawks are reliable, while Osprey are suicide machines
>he thinks that burgermutts can ever figure out tilt-rotors
LMFAO
US is the only country in the world that use tilt-rotor. What the fuck are you talking about?
They'll keep crashing, killing scores of troops and they'll be called flying deathtrap.
In contrast, our Z-20 can reliably and safely transport our troops above 13,000 feet.
>our Z-20
Bing bong ching chong
>In contrast, our Z-20 is a plagiarized and shitty version of a 40+ year old American helicopter.
Why did they narrow the fuselage before the tail? Wouldnt that fuck with the Longeron design?
Its a copy of the export version of the blackhawk. I think the U.S. gave some away to china at some point in the 70s. But its a copy of the s70 than the uh60.
Implessive!
Japan uses them, too. There's even an intelligence department within their Ministry of Internal Affairs that operates them.
I miss Origa terribly.
my friend have you ever heard of the "osprey" y'know the HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL TILT-?ROTOR THAT PIONEERED MILITARY TILT-ROTOR AIRCRAFT
60080485
Weak
offtopic cause FARA, not FLRAA, but the Bell 360 Invcitus has a side-stick cyclic/joystick like an Airbus. The goofy A-10-style throttle is probably a stand-in. Verbally confirmed by Keith Flail in the DefAeroReport video.
touchscreens because the generation that'll fly it will have been raised on iPads
confirmed by the 360 Invictus's project manager's kid making goofy Gacha Life slideshows, really cute.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLmI8XReREYubMOXwpdB1bA
>Muh steam gauges and soft buttons
Literally the worst interfaces ever designed. Touchscreens aren't much better but at least you can operate the fucking thing without spending 3 years memorizing menu layering
Keith himself said it's for the pilots of tomorrow. Should have been for the pilots of yesterday, MFDs look like an absolute nightmare.
Here's the V-280 cockpit.
Can we even trust those screens? Can you even have redundancy with that?
There are some types of screens that will still work if they were punctured, but it seems total instrument failure is just going to be a constant concern in the future.
>if they're good enough for astronauts and the F-35, they're good enough for Army aviation
>1 bullet hits the screen.
>You now have zero access to any of your instruments.
Wtf are they supposed to do if the screen malfunctions! It all or nothing.
It's a projection, so damaging part of the screen means only that part is not visible
>The projector is hit by a bullet
>You now have zero access to any of your instruments
Not a great design.
The stick and throttle are Thrustmaster Warthogs. What the fuck. Is this real?
wouldn't be the first bit of gaming hardware used for serious business if it is real
You are now aware that the thrustmaster warthog was designed to be an almost identical replica of the actual hotas from the a10
Is Tilt-rotor good in ASW role?
>ASW role?
What's that?
I think they're less fuel efficient in hover mode then a traditional design for a dip sonar, but that doesn't matter if you want them to just chuck wireless sonars into the water and they're obviously far faster and more fuel efficient when traveling, so I'd say they're better.
these big propellers look silly
lol they're still trying to make tilt rotors happen?
>lol they're still trying to make tilt rotors happen?
It's already happening.
Good thing your generation isn't going to fly them, then. You keep enjoying your inefficient conventionals in the ash bin of history.
sure perhaps
Drones are the real attack helis replacement.
Apache is an attack helicopter, that’s a fucking v22 with a V-tail
>I bet it will try to do anything, and do it all with mediocrity
2018 Valor mockup with door Miniguns and a fairly luxurious cabin
now that's a kid having fun
They're the kids from this video
fuck, meant this one
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=1O3Onyas984