Can anyone fricking tell me why we still haven't got a reliable, good, semi-automatic, mag-fed shotgun on the civilian market?

Can anyone fricking tell me why we still haven't got a reliable, good, semi-automatic, mag-fed shotgun on the civilian market? The ideas are there, literally any company could do it. It's not illegal.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Saiga-12 and Chink copies?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Overpriced and chink, well it's chink shit

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Saiga's aren't super great quality these days for whatever reason and the good chink clones like the Lynx actually can survive a decent beating. Not as tough as the Russian saigas which can go for like 20k rounds before failure but 11k isn't too bad if you know what youre getting into. this guy that sounds like Jimmy Witcherd and has some decent vids on them https://youtu.be/Jx9rXd0v1gw?feature=shared

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          > Saiga's aren't super great quality these days for whatever reason
          They haven’t been exported to the US in years, unless you’re in a country that still gets them.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Well sure, what were you expecting? There's no real purpose for it other than a range toy so it's not like any of the big shotgun makers are going to devote any real money to it.

        Like it or not, the optimal shotgun is a break-action O/U.
        >>but but I want to combat larp like the characters in my video games
        that's what a rifle or carbine is for. or you can get chinkshit/turkshit.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          what a shit take in between a generally true statement. Semi auto shotguns have been perfected by Benelli but the loading system is antiquated garbage because the 12 gauge is honestly antiquated garbage.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            There's nothing "perfect" about a semi-auto. They have worse ergonomics than a double, waste space with the bolt, and they only have one barrel, which means you can't have two different chokes in the same gun.
            >>but but but the capacity!
            The capacity is irrelevant with hunting laws and clay sports rules being what they are.

            >>but but I want to shoot people!
            A rifle or carbine is better for that.

            >because the 12 gauge is honestly antiquated garbage.
            It's pretty great for it's intended purpose, which is point-shooting at birds and things that move like birds. If you're b***hing about the rim people tried to address that a few years ago with picrel and it failed hard.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              A shotgun is better for shooting people than a rifle or carbine, per trigger pull because of the way buckshot works. It's only when you factor in things such as effective range and body armor do shotguns lose to rifles. But that isn't always a given. Same for hunting, but how often do you encounter game that needs several shots to down it? Double barrels are trash, gramps, low capacity for an inherently low capacity gun. Two chokes because you're hunting birds and big game at the exact same time? Just carry a choke set or flitecontrol ammo with you. Laws are irrelevant and unique to location compared to the guns nature itself

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >per trigger pull because of the way buckshot works
                Citation needed. Every study I've read concludes that there's no appreciable benefit.

                >Same for hunting, but how often do you encounter game that needs several shots to down it?
                Literally never with a shotgun. Either you miss, or the game is down. Nevermind the fact that hunting laws prevent you from loading a ton of ammo anyway, unless you feel like being deep-dicked by the game warden.

                >Double barrels are trash, gramps, low capacity for an inherently low capacity gun.
                Thanks to clay rules and hunting laws capacity is irrelevant. Meanwhile doubles mog the frick out of every other gun when it comes go ergos. There's a reason why every fricking competitive skeet shooter uses an O/U.

                >Two chokes because you're hunting birds and big game at the exact same time?
                No, because of range, noguns. If the bird is far away then a tighter choke is in order.

                > Just carry a choke set or flitecontrol ammo with you.
                How is that going to help me when I don't know what shot will present itself before I see the bird? And how is it going to help on doubles clays when I need to fire two shots at two radically different trajectories?

                >Laws are irrelevant and unique to location compared to the guns nature itself
                In an ideal world? Sure, I agree with you. But sadly, to your and I's chagrin, most gun companies tend to follow what the law puts forth. I'd love a modernized semiauto for the shits and grins. I'm just explaining why it won't happen.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                You aren't a hunter or a killer son. Stop pretending to be on the internet. Go "study" in real life instead of posting everything you read from other morons who know nothing.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >A shotgun is better for shooting people than a rifle or carbine, per trigger pull because of the way buckshot works
                Citation needed. Every study I've seen that actually compares real-world shooting data have rifles and shotguns equal in effectiveness.

                > It's only when you factor in things such as effective range and body armor
                There's also the fact that shotgun shells are frickhuge and frickheavy compared to rifle rounds. The logistics are shit.

                >Same for hunting, but how often do you encounter game that needs several shots to down it?
                Almost never.

                > Two chokes because you're hunting birds and big game at the exact same time?
                No, because you don't know what angle and range the shot will present itself. If the bird flushes close to you then you fire the barrel with the wider choke. If the shot is farther away you choose the one with the tighter choke. Same thing when you're shooting clays: you choose which barrel to fire when based on the range.

                > Just carry a choke set or flitecontrol ammo with you.
                Anon, the birds aren't going to sit still while you fumble around with chokes and ammo.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >please look how wise and fuddy i am!
              >i am the brown-hooded wojak on all the IQ chart memes

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        have you personally used, or even touched, either?

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Ahem. The chosen people already resolved this issue anon.

    Now is the time to take the starship trooper pill anon.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Oh god, it looks like a challenged tavor.
      Just make a barrel slightly longer to complete it

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I've held one and holy frick they're as unwieldy as they look. Stupid gun for stupid people

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >I've held one and holy frick they're as unwieldy as they look. Stupid gun for stupid people
        well, that's basically what mag-fed shotguns are

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The real reason is that rimmed shotgun shells are just ill-suited for magazine use.

    We need a shotgun shell that is rimless, and the overall reliability of a magazine-fed shotgun will improve enough that it will become a new standard.
    It's just that the current rimmed shotgun shells work "Well enough" for pump action and hunting purposes, which is the majority of intended use. So changing the whole industry is too much of a push.

    The moment one major army adopts rimless shotgun cartridges we will see that change happen.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Why would an army ever adopt rimless shotgun cartridges? Shotguns are like 0.1% of their small arms, it's not even a blip on their radar. Meanwhile current shotgun technology works just fine for things like breaching. The current replacement for the KAC Masterkey, the C-More M-26, takes box mags that work with current shells.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >The moment one major army adopts rimless shotgun cartridges we will see that change happen.
      How often are shotguns even used in combat nowadays?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Small brained.

        Imagine a suitably designed magazine fed shotgun. Able to engage targets up to 100 meters, and with rapid fire ability for anti-drone loads as well. And carrying a large magazine.

        This would be situational but an effective weapon in close-in fighting, very effective at suppressing fire, that we are starting to see more of like Ukraine trenches.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Able to engage targets up to 100 meters,
          Frick, I wish I can do that with a standard infantry rifle
          >and with rapid fire ability for anti-drone loads as well.
          What’s an anti-drone old? Typically if a drone is flying close enough to be splattered by scatter blaster, either it’s an FPV drone headed your way or from operator error.
          There’s footage from both sides of the conflict of soldiers taking down drones with rifles and machine guns well beyond the range of your typical heavy duty bird shells.
          >large magazine
          Any AR/AK has 30 rounds in a mag. Chest Riggs can easily carry 6 mags.
          More simple and easy than even your large, clunky, drum mags for shotguns.
          >This would be situational but an effective weapon in close-in fighting,
          So is any assault rifle, with the added bonus of 30+. Even submachine guns are being phased out by carbines because it turns out it’s sometimes better to run 5.56 out of a short barrel in more scenarios, especially ones that involve body armor or rangers further than 9mm can be effective.
          >very effective at suppressing fire,
          Less so than rifles and machine guns. I hope you like 10 carrying drum mags to do the work of one machine gunner.
          >that we are starting to see more of like Ukraine trenches.
          Russians and Ukrainians aren’t thinking about dropping their AKs and ARs for shotguns. Some guys might bring their personal shotguns to take potshots at drones but no rifles are being phased out. There is better anti-drone tech and weapons than shotguns. Leave shotguns for civil stuff like police, where the USAS-12 and other box mag-fed shotguns actually see use.

          The AA12 made a brief appearance on the civilian market before the ATF killed it by making up some shit about it being 'too easy to convert into full auto"

          So the civilian market HAD a " reliable, good, semi-automatic, mag-fed shotgun", but the ATF is gay as frick

          Because it said auto or some shit. The guy who designed it later designed the USAS-12, who was marked as a DD by the ATF. But hey, Turk and chinkshit galore on the market. At least you can buy used VEPRs and SAIGAs (if the price is right).

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >rimmed shotgun shells are just ill-suited for magazine use
      Magazines for rimmed cartridges are a problem that have been solved for a while now. It's a hurdle but not a huge impediment.
      The real issue with shotgun shell mags is that most shotgun shells are plastic. Under spring tension& subject to the rapid jolt of being pushed up& against each other during feeding, plastic shells deform, and that deformation is gonna cause all manner of feeding problems.
      The obvious answer is to switch to brass cases; however as other anons have pointed out, shotguns are not at all a priority in military service. Also brass shells are much more expensive at scale, and cheap ammo is very attractive for shotgunners. Tube-fed mags full of plastic shells are more than sufficient for hunting& sporting

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >The obvious answer is to switch to brass cases
        I'm curious, has this ever been actually tested? I see a lot of people parrot "just use brass cases bro", but I wonder if those people have ever touched a brass shotgun hull in their life. Brass shotgun hulls have extremely thin walls. They are not very strong. Is there any proof they solve this problem or is this just virgins discussing sex again?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >i don't think brass in less pliable than plastic

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Brass is stiffer than plastic but that doesn't matter much when they are so much thinnner. Have you ever handled a brass shotgun hull before?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >Have you ever handled a brass shotgun hull before?
              Yeah, my buddy loaded up some turkey magnums in brass once just to frick around with. they seemed about like 45-70 brass, only wider. Seriously doubt they'll deform under magazine spring pressure

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >turkey magnums in brass once
                Doubt.jpg. Nobody makes cases long enough for that, unless your buddy had them custom made.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >unless your buddy had them custom made
                Yeah... he loaded up some old 3" brass shells to pisshot levels and we blasted clays with them. He called them turkey magnums, they were pretty stout. If you want to disagree then go ahead, but you're only deflecting because you can't seriously say brass shells will deform like plastic from magazine spring tension

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Old 3"
                You do realize that 3" is a relatively modern standard, right? This is like saying your buddy found an "old smartphone".

                >because you can't seriously say brass shells will deform like plastic from magazine spring tension
                Of course I can, because I have a lot of experience with brass hulls. I load them for multiple antique guns from 28ga to 10ga. They're pretty damn thin, I can easily deform them with my fingers. Aluminum is generally regarded as strong but an aluminum can is pretty fricking flimsy. Thickness matters.

                Anyway, I'll happily eat my hat if someone can provide actual proof they solve the problem, but I have yet to see that, all I hear is durr metal is stronger than plastic from people who appear to have little experience or credibility.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >You do realize that 3" is a relatively modern standard, right?
                Didn't say how old they were, didn't say they were standard. Additionally, 2.75" is standard for 12g & 20g, numbnuts

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Additionally, 2.75" is standard for 12g & 20g, numbnuts
                Those are not the only standards anon. Go look up a SAAMI book. For 20ga 2.75 and 3" are both standards, the latter being much newer. For 12ga there is 2-1/2" (very old), 2-3/4" (most common), 3", 3.5"...for 10ga there is 2 7/8" and 3.5", etc. There are multiple standards. It's just odd someone would have "old 3 inch hulls".

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Aren't brass 12ga hulls a weird length too? The handful I've seen for sale at gunshows were like 2 5/8 or something like that.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                The most common brands available these days are 2-1/2" from .410 up to 12ga. I'm guessing you might have seen some old 10ga, that is commonly 2-7/8 but I don't think anyone is making that currently other than custom lathe-turned stuff.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          The brass shells I've handled were more or less the same thickness as the brass case head on a plastic shell. They're probably not as durable as plastic shells tbh. You can't really crimp them either. These had a cardboard disc glued over the shot.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You can crimp them, RCBS and CH4D both make dies for it. There is also this style of crimp which was used for slugs in brass cases back in the day. But the crimps on shotshells are fairly extreme compared to that on a a rifle or pistol cartridge, it causes more deformation to the brass which limits its life. You can anneal the case mouths to get longer life but it's still limited whereas if you glue overshot cards instead of crimping the hulls last for ages.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      disclosure: tourist from PrepHole here.
      If this is the case, then why not solve the issue of traditional tube-fed shotguns taking long to reload by using something like the Winchester Model 63 where a tube feeder could be use to rapidly reload the rifle.

      Using a Benelli M4 as an example: how well would such a device function on a shotgun using a traditional loading port. if it wouldn't work well, what modification would have to be brought to the loading port for it to work correctly?
      additionally, what kind of problems inherently comes from using a feeding tube when it comes to carrying on a tac-vest or anywhere else on the body? how much of a bother/advantage would it be for an average 3-gun competition shooter to use a tube like this for the sport?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        ??????

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I have a hard time just accepting the fact that the shells have rims means you can't make a mag work for shit. If that was true, you also wouldn't see any 22 firearms with mags worth a damn, which is obviously false.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        The rim alone is not a deal-breaker, but it's just one of many features that make shotshells ill suited for an autoloader. They have a rim. The front of the cartridge is pretty much "square" without any conical or rounded feature to help guide it into a chamber--it's like the feeding problems of early hollow points but worse. There's also zero taper to the hulls. And, the hulls are thin and not designed to withstand pressure from a box magaine spring. None of these are insurmountable problems but they add up to be a hassle. There has been at least one recent attempt to make a semiauto friendly 12ga--rimless and with a "nose" to feed smoothly--but it flopped hard; see the Intrepid RAS-12.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Genesis Arms

    But enjoy the 3000 dollar price tag for US made

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Auto 5
    >Model 11
    >1100
    >11/87
    >930
    >A300
    >A400
    >1301
    >M3
    >M4
    How many more do you need?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      magazine fed, not tube fed dumbass

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >a tube isn't a magazine
        are you really this stupid? Is it really so hard to say you want a box magazine instead of a tube magazine? And on top of that, is it really so hard as to explain why?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          yeah, autist, magazines are detachable components intended for swift reloading capability, not permanently attached bullet button tubes

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You mean clips.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            For older bolt rifles like mannlichers and Mausers, are their internal magazines not magazines? Are en bloc clips actually magazine or clipazines?

            theyre inherently unreliable if you store them loaded, other than that its a classic case of manufacturers just being too dumb to make things people want
            >use brass shells
            what do those run, 3 bucks a pop or something?

            Reject plastic.
            Return to paper shells.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          stop trying to act smart when you are this fricking moronic you homosexual

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Vepr-12

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The AA12 made a brief appearance on the civilian market before the ATF killed it by making up some shit about it being 'too easy to convert into full auto"

    So the civilian market HAD a " reliable, good, semi-automatic, mag-fed shotgun", but the ATF is gay as frick

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The AA12 was neither reliable nor good. Why do you think they had 0 takers in almost 50 years of marketing that hunk of shit?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Because all 12ga shotguns are DD by being over .50cal but receive a sporting purpose exemption, which the ATF can take away at any point they feel like for any reason - just like how you can as well.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        What the frick are you making up jeet moron

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I'm not making up anything? If you other examples look at damn near all of Sentinel Arms' product line like the Striker-12. For fricks sake all you'd have to do is Google "sporting purpose clause" to learn more. But you didn't cause you're a lazy bastard.
          For civilians it's a very little known loophole you can use to build an SBS if your state doesn't allow it - like Washington, where I live - yet despite such a law existing since 1994 I was still able to get my DD stamp approved and build this S12K clone. Pic related.
          The benefits to this is that unlike an SBS stamp, all the ATF cares about with DDs is bore size - barrel length is totally irrelevant, and I can change this barrel to any length I want without having to re-file.
          I would implore you to maybe spend less time calling people morons on PrepHole and spend more time studying in legislature.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            moronic fuddlore, shotguns are specifically carved out of DD legislation for this reason, you're misinterpreting the law, which is fine but asserting something that is false which isn't.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Again, go read a book if you don't believe me. Or provide a source, I'll kindly wait.
              If it didn't work like that, I wouldn't have this, now would I?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >shotguns are specifically carved out of DD legislation
              yes, its called sporting purpose exemption.... dude already explained it, pull your head out your ass

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Damn you got that baboon moron IQ

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              https://i.imgur.com/X0sugEE.jpg

              Again, go read a book if you don't believe me. Or provide a source, I'll kindly wait.
              If it didn't work like that, I wouldn't have this, now would I?

              Goes for you too

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          https://i.imgur.com/Ag6dz6Z.jpg

          Damn you got that baboon moron IQ

          [...]
          Goes for you too

          What is
          >SPAS-15
          >Street Sweeper
          >AA-12
          >USAS-12

          Everyone in this room thinks you're the moron lmfao.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            SPAS15 was a different story, they just banned import/ownership for the '94 AWB which ended with the ban. They used to pop up on gunbroker here and there about 10 years ago, I nearly got one for the giggles

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >>AA-12
            Was never ruled a DD. That whole thing was doomed by a potent combination of Boomer hubris and hillbilly stupidity.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Yes, it was. Search it up if you disagree.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Wrong. They were being manufactured on full auto receivers by a dude who built MGs without the licensing, and they also fraudulently filled out paperwork about them. It all started because the original designer of them threw a fit they didn't pay him a million bucks or so for all his tooling and blueprints so he told the ATF they could be easily converted. Even though they couldn't be.
                It was moronic because with the AA12 the receiver doesn't really mean a damn thing and it's relatively no different than any other firearm, but the ATF isn't known for making logical choices.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Feel free to post the ruling.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Literally all you have to do is read the ATFs statement on the USAS but the fact that you havent done so already speaks volumes

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Everyone that isn't as moronic as me is Indian
          Quintessentially nu/k/

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    box magazines deform shotgun shells into an oval shape causing feeding issues. tube mags are better.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      use brass shells
      next

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    theyre inherently unreliable if you store them loaded, other than that its a classic case of manufacturers just being too dumb to make things people want
    >use brass shells
    what do those run, 3 bucks a pop or something?

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    dont all the AK shotguns already do that

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    TFW got a saiga when they first started importing to the USA. Feels good man.

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    because most problems can be solved with 5 shots of shotgun, and the Benelli M4 holds 8 (without ghost loading one).

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    If turks weren't moronic inbred muslims then they would be able to make good guns, only good thing to come out of that shitty country is food

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It's just so mindbogling to me that not one, ONE company in US even attempted at making a copy of those shitty turkish AR shotguns but with actual QC and quality parts.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah, it’s totally mind blowing that some company won’t make a knock-off of some shitty Turkish shotgun made with low quality materials by underpaid Turks, Kurds, and Arabs.
      There’s a reason why nobody makes tacticool mag-fed shotguns, except for the chinks and Turks.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Shotguns like that are range toys and need to be priced accordingly because there's no legitimate application that would drive someone to spend that kind of money on one. Let's say someone cranked out exactly what you're asking for. It would probably cost $5k. Who's gonna buy it? Not hunters or clay shooters, it's worse than what they're already using. Meanwhile its far too expensive for the larp crowd.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Genesis Arms Gen-12. 12ga upper for AR-10 lowers. moronicly expensive though.

      moronic fuddlore, shotguns are specifically carved out of DD legislation for this reason, you're misinterpreting the law, which is fine but asserting something that is false which isn't.

      The sporting purpose exemption can be overruled by the ATF to arbitrarily declare any firearm with a bore over 50 caliber as a DD if they want, you fricking moron. Streetsweeper, Striker 12, and USAS-12 are all considered DDs by the ATF.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >The sporting purpose exemption can be overruled by the ATF to arbitrarily declare any firearm with a bore over 50 caliber as a DD if they want, you fricking moron. Streetsweeper, Striker 12, and USAS-12 are all considered DDs by the ATF.
        And they probably won’t be able to do that anymore due the courts being on their asses

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Hahahahahahahahahaha oh man that's rich

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Jeet cope

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    On that note, why the frick do we have $400 AR's on the market but almost no one makes a semi-auto shotgun under $1000 (outside of Turkshit)?

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Fostech origin 12
    Holy frick this image is old

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/H8t4YPZ.jpg

      https://i.imgur.com/cGlGk02.jpg

      As moronic as the turkshit shotguns. Why not something like a saiga or SPAS-15?

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I'm sure someone will eventually find a way to mag feed a 1301 if they haven't already.

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    because it's a stupid fricking idea and can never be made to work well and every single one is bad and everyone who likes them is stupid and doesn't own one and when they do own one they'll stop liking them because they're a stupid fricking idea.

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Speaking of magfed shotguns, I want some more mags for my Vepr 12, but I don’t want to pay the premium for factory Molot mags. Do any of the turkshit clones have mags that are compatible with a Vepr?

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