Italy joined the ass end of Tempest, and since that is no longer happening as it merged with GCAP, Italy is now joined on the ass end of GCAP with the UK and Japan leading.
GCAP is team tempest, the program is still running, the 2,500 people in the UK working on it are still working on it. Go listen to the official tempest podcast.
I know this is probably well-managed by PR and diplomat types but I immediately envisioned, and now desperately want, a multinational cast of engineers arguing about pointless minutae to do with the development of this thing.
They want a 6th gen fighter and now they're first in line as a customer and will likely get some contracts for Italian manufacturing out of it as well as priority on orders and maybe even some influence on the design itself (better integration with existing italian air force/navy systems/weapons/etc).
So yeah. If Italy wants a good fighter for the 2040s and beyond this is a good thing.
Seems to be the same as the concept shown off in Japan earlier this year. The model does look more detailed though.
Hopefully, that means they're finalizing the design
By the way when i said it looked familiar I didn't want to look like i was bitching or imply that they copied the other design or whatever.
The convergent evolution between the two as the designs refine is getting hilarious. I expect levels of flamewar on part with the fiercest Rafale/Typhoon debates we got until then.
I also find quite interesting that design teams and engineers at the scale of a whole continent are trained in such a similar way than the optimum shapes to fit all requirements are once again so close.
Rafale won that contest by a country mile and I fully expect the FCAS to win here also
Wow. Open your mouth and remove all doubt eh?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
He isn't wrong in saying that the Rafale is better than the Typhoon. Now, on the Rafale being better than an F35 we can have a laugh together
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>better than current EFAs
arguable >better than Phase 4 upgrade EFAs
nah
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Spergs a sperg whether he is right or wrong
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Thank you for seeing the truth. Again, the F5 will not be rolled out beforr 2030 so we still have to wait but you will all see
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>He isn't wrong in saying that the Rafale is better than the Typhoon
he is wrong and has been for at least a decade.
the only edge rafale has over typhoon is a slightly higher theoretical max bomb load, which is made less relevant by typhoons greater range of PGMs, A2A is clearly in typhoons favour, having both superior aerodynamic performance and better A2A weapons, meteor with 2 way datalink being better than meteor with one way datalink and ASRAAM and IRIS-T both shitting on magic and MICA
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>superior aerodynamic performance
No the rafale beats typhoon on several metrics inc role and turn rate. The test results were from evaluations for several countries, you can find them yourself. Typhoon does have slightly higher top speed, rate of climb and acceration due to better power/weight ratio.
The Rafale has a far better EW suite that Typhoon is still playing catch up even with the pretorian upgrades. So much so that the Rafale was able to bomb Libyan targets without american EW help, unlike the Typhoon. Also it has AESA radar which again is still not on typhoon for a few more years (and in RAF case only around half the fleet will get them).
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Rafale has better aerodynamics at low alt while the Typhoon has the edge at high alt
also iirc Italian and German Typhoons too will receive the ECRS mk.2 iirc
Still years away, wont even have its first flight until 2024.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Germany is only getting ECRS Mk.1 so far, and will probably stick with it because it's being made in Germany where Mk.2 has no German input.
There are 3 concurrent AESA radars for Typhoon: >Mk.0 that was developed by the EuroRADAR consortium and is now being put in Kuwaiti and Qatari Eurofighters >Mk.1 which was mainly developed by Leonardo in Italy, but now transferred to Hensoldt in Germany who will work with Indra in Spain >Mk.2 which is a UK-specified radar that's being developed by Leonardo in Scotland, but now getting additional support from Leonardo personnel transferred from Italy as they prepare to join the project
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Rafale cant sustain a vertical turn, Eurofighter can, thats all we need to know.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
A good PESA is better than a shit AESA. ECRS mk2 is a huge step forward, like stupidly so when compared to RBE2, it's further ahead that the radars we currently have on 5th gens. It's an easy de-risk for Tempest which will have a more advanced (more power hungry) version.
Tempest isn't merged with Japan for GCAP now, and the Japanese have better Radars, so expect GCAP to use a Mitsubishi radar. Japan was flying AESA radar in the F-16 (F-2) before the US was.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>isn't
is
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Don't bother you're on a anglo board with absolutely abyssmal weapon and military knowledge. They've been fed the Murdock propaganda for half a century.
Just post e-bois with guns.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Why are french people such stupid, angry morons?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>anon makes a respectful informed post with reasonable arguments
>wretched anglo responds with xenophobic, racist remark revealing what a classless, nasty little twerp he his.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>REEEEcism
Okay, cheese-eating surrender monkey.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Frog makes delusional, overly self important post >Muh racism
Lmao
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Imagine thinking dogfighting capabilities are still the most important metrics.
Seems to be the same as the concept shown off in Japan earlier this year. The model does look more detailed though.
Hopefully, that means they're finalizing the design
It doesn't need to be, and the US military would agree. Some have gotten the idea in their minds that because the US is giving out F-35s like their free samples to everyone, then they'll naturally do the same for any future stealth air superiority fighter. The F-35 is a next-gen F-16 in terms of the desire to have as many partners and allies who want/need/can afford them. The F-22 is not a fighter anyone else but the US operates and to my knowledge it's intended to stay that way.
It'll likely be the same for NGAD and as such, it would be really, really nice if Europeans partners and Allies had something that could be considered comparable in capability and performance that was domestically produced (believe it or not the US *does* actually want its allies to maintain their homegrown defense industries).
The Tempest will probably be excellent, but it doesn't need to be jussasgud as whatever the US comes up with, just the same way the Eurofighter doesn't *need* to be an F-22. It's comparable in performance, and therefore would compliment the F-22 well, as the F-22 would well compliment the Eurofighter. This is how alliances work.
That's fine. America will once again refuse to export their next air superiority fighter so the other nations of the world must produce their own. Since FCAS is a never ever, that leaves GCAP and whatever vaporware the chinks can shit out. It doesn't need to be better than NGAD, it just needs to be better than everything else (which it will be by a large margin).
turns out there's not too many different shapes that are both stealthy and airworthy. if you don't want to go full flying triangle you're pretty much locked into an f22/35 looking nose.
>turns out there's not too many different shapes that are both stealthy and airworthy. if you don't want to go full flying triangle you're pretty much locked into an f22/35 looking nose.
right you are. that doesn't change that I'm relieved to see even a slight bit of variety in this area of design, at least.
Oh boy time for the cancerous bong circlejerk to jerk over a wooden mockup, reminder that France, South Korea, Turkey, Sweden and Japan also have wooden mockups of 5th gen fighters.
I like how Sweden basically just admitted they were only paying into Tempest to spy on their R&D to see if they wanted to steal any of it for Gripen upgrades.
They had no interest long-term in the program or buying the planes that are made from it.
And as such they're not buying into GCAP.
> Sources also said Sweden had been interested in tracking GCAP to help support future upgrade work on its own Gripen fighter, as manufactured by Saab.
Eh, I'm sure something is happening behind the scenes.
I hope anyway - they have some good experience with radar's and I don't think Britain can make it's own A2A radars yet (although Japan has experience).
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I don't think Britain can make it's own A2A radars yet
https://www.leonardo.com/en/news-and-stories-detail/-/detail/leonardo_raf_ecrs_mk2_delivery
and before you say >But Leonardo is Italian!
The division of Leonardo that's making it up in Edinburgh is what was once the British avionics company Ferranti
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Oh wow, colour me surprised.
Wasn't underestimating Britains ability btw, just wanted to counter the claim that Sweden wasn't willing put in its own research.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Japan has arguably the MOST experience in manufacturing the small GaN modules for modern AESA radars, and have had AESA radar in fighter jets since the early 2000s.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Do they make their own AWACS?
SAAB's approach to Radars is the whole "not just a radar" thing where they want to integrate basic AWACs functions into it to make it more multi-purpose.
I'm sure they have something to offer the program and aren't just leaching off. Chances are they won't use the Tempest/GCAP and will instead make their own 5/6th gen (single engined more than likely).
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I'm sure they have something to offer the program and aren't just leaching off. Chances are they won't use the Tempest/GCAP and will instead make their own 5/6th gen (single engined more than likely).
Are you talking about Japan or Sweden here?
Japan has already settled on a twin engined air superiority fighter.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Sweden.
They make their own AWACS and will probably continue with a single engine design.
Japan requires twin engines for greater range and ops over water.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
It's gripen upgrades until mars?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Nope, the Gripen platform in it's current form is pretty much the limit of what it can do. Whilst it will continue to be produced from what I've heard the Swedes are balls deep in Flygsystem.
Doesn't seam like it has made a press release yet. Its bas been something I have heard from acquaintances that work in SAAB so I expected it to be in the open.
Because they're still trying to produce a 5th gen larping as a 6th gen. They took the McDonnell Douglas/BAE JSF design and added two engines to it. How original, and forward-thinking.
Japan already has and there'd be no point in designing something that doesn't fit in the battlespace of the future. They'd more likely use a similar design as the F/A-XX but cut corners if they struggled to produce it.
>Japan already has
Where? Are you talking about the 5th gen MINUS japtor? Making an entry level 5th gen with US help is FAR from making a domestic 6th gen.
Most of it. Where do you think they got the design from? LM.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Hahahahahahaha
Good job confirming you have no idea what you're talking about.
Do you REALLY think Lockheed did that and then NEVER published any media info, no PR blurbs, no web pages about Japanese/Lockheed cooperation like they do with all the F-35 and F-2 milestones and collab work.
I mean come on. Post ANYTHING that links lockheed to the Mitsubishi X-2. I mean it, literally ANY contract or research/dev work.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Do you REALLY think Lockheed did that and then NEVER published any media info, no PR blurbs
Depends on their cooperation agreements. Japan can't even make a commercial jet, or an F-16 knock-off by themselves, and you expect me to believe they jump into the 5/6th gen fighter arena? KEK. Defending nips on 4Chinz isn't going to get you laid by some flat faced nip whore, my obese fren. Time to go to bed, Kurt.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So your source for Lockheed is "trust me bro, the nips couldn't do it alone"
Wow. I'm convinced now. The fact Japan finished the X-2 flight tests and then asked Northrop and Lockheed to submit design proposals for a joint US/Japanese fighter surely means Japan was already working with Lockheed. I mean if Japan JUST finished a 10 year development project with lockheed it makes perfect sense that they'd then IMMEDIATELY go ask lockheed to work on ANOTHER decade+ long fighter development project.
I mean come on, it doesn't even make sense lmao. Your argument isn't based in reality and contradicts basically everything we DO know about the Mitsubishi X-2 / F-X and now GCAP.
Is lockheed also secretly involved with GCAP too?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
They've been working together since the F-2 sharing tech. You know this, though, my obese nip loving fren.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Of course, Mitsubishi supplies the GaN modules for the newest AN/SPY-6 and other radars, US defense contractor buy Japanese tech all the time.
But you're retarded if you think Lockheed had ANYTHING directly to do with the Mitsubishi X-2. The entire point of the X-2 project was to attempt to develop a domestic 5th gen demonstrator, if they couldnt do that without Lockheeds help, then there would have been no point to even run the project in the first place, they could've just asked Northrop or Lockheed to submit design proposals (which is exactly what Japan did after the X-2 flight tests finished and Japan decided not to go forward with production).
Again, it makes zero sense what you're saying. You're saying Japan had Lockheed develop the X-2, cancel it, just to then go back to lockheed and ask them to submit another proposal after JUST finishing the supposed Lockheed martin X-2?
Even you know this is pure fantasy that logically doesn't even come close to making sense.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Mitsubishi supplies the GaN modules for the newest AN/SPY-6 and other radars
No, they don't.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Mitsubishi electric makes the best GaN modules out there right now, Raytheon is using new GaN modules on SPY-6
Maybe they're not buying them FROM Japan, but the Japanese were leading the field on that front and the US has talked specifically about cooperating with Mitsubishi in future radar development, especially for ballistic missile radars in Japan and Korea.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Mitsubishi electric makes the best GaN modules out there right now
Proof? Even the J-2 AESA was behind what the US had then. >Raytheon is using new GaN modules on SPY-6
Yeah, made by them. >Maybe they're not buying them FROM Japan
You talked out of your obese greasy asshole, then?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Not that anon, but SPY-7 uses Japanese produced GaN TMRs. It wouldn't shock me if SPY-6 did as well. > Aegis software variant Baseline 9 already tracked live targets using a prototype version of Lockheed Martin SSR hardware powered by multi-purpose Fujitsu GaN from Japan.
https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2018-01-11-Lockheed-Martin-Demonstrates-Next-Generation-Aegis-Ashore-Solution
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
That is only because it will be used on nip AEGIS ships, and only that reason. LM has had US made GaN since 2015 from Wolfspeed. SPY-6 is Raytheon, not LM.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Not that anon, but SPY-7 uses Japanese produced GaN TMRs. It wouldn't shock me if SPY-6 did as well. > Aegis software variant Baseline 9 already tracked live targets using a prototype version of Lockheed Martin SSR hardware powered by multi-purpose Fujitsu GaN from Japan.
https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2018-01-11-Lockheed-Martin-Demonstrates-Next-Generation-Aegis-Ashore-Solution
>Mitsubishi electric makes the best GaN modules out there right now
Proof? Even the J-2 AESA was behind what the US had then. >Raytheon is using new GaN modules on SPY-6
Yeah, made by them. >Maybe they're not buying them FROM Japan
You talked out of your obese greasy asshole, then?
SPY-7 has a host of installations scheduled, Lockheed also said last year or the year before that they'd be happy to go head to head against SPY-6 as they're confident they'll perform favorably against it.
> Lockheed Martin asserted various points of SPY-7 superiority over SPY-6 including having a larger logistics pool to support it with over 10,000 basic modules produced by the end of 2021 and that SPY-7 allows individual modules to be swapped out in under a minute while the system still radiates.
> In a technical chart comparison between the systems, the company said unlike SPY-6, SPY-7 has polarization diversity, on-array digital beam forming, low power substates, requires a power supply of 375 volts vs. 1000 volts of direct current, has three times the search capacity, 1.2 times the raid capacity, and 1.3 times the range.
Lockheed also said they'd be interested in offering a version of SPY-7 for refitting old Burkes.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Of course, LM would say that. Doesn't change that fact that the nip GaN modules are only used because they're going on a nip AEGIS ship.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So are the Canadian SPY-7s using Canadian GaN TMRs?
How about the Spanish ones?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The Japanese TMRs are higher performing, but the US wants to prop up US industry, and since Northrop has been developing GaN TMRs in the US, even though they ARE a bit worse, they're good enough to be comparable and they're made in the US by a US company. So yeah, even though Lockheeds SPY-7 is a great radar, almost all american projects are going to use Raytheon SPY-6 derivatives because of the US domestic industry ties. Also if the US pumps enough money into Raytheons GaN development, we should surpass Japanese TMRs in the next decade or two.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Northrop
Raytheon
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The Japanese TMRs are higher performing
Proof?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Japanese TMRs have always been higher performing, even back in the 1990s when the US was looking at Japanese TMRs they were shocked at how small they were, the kicker was japan had sent the US their early prototype and the prototype they were working on internally had even smaller TMRs than the one they sent to the US.
That being said, I have no "proof" so to speak, just based on conversations with people in the navy (and naval contractors) about various naval radar development projects over the last 20 years.
I happen to live just a few miles from the main navy radar testing facility in the US.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Japanese TMRs have always been higher performing
Proof? >even back in the 1990s when the US was looking at Japanese TMRs they were shocked at how small they were, the kicker was japan had sent the US their early prototype and the prototype they were working on internally had even smaller TMRs than the one they sent to the US.
No. I remember the US being impressed that they made them, though they were low powered and not of much use outside of a lab. That's what I remember from the reports released then.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The report basically says the japanese TMRs were equal to the best US ones, but again, japan was already working on even smaller TMRs at the same time the US was evaluating the first one.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The report basically says the japanese TMRs were equal to the best US ones
Where?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Who knows. They may? I doubt Canada can make them, though.
can you point out which 5th gen fighter has adaptive cycle engines, or the ability to be unmanned, or swarm technology, or any of the other countless features the Tempest will have?
>can you point out which 5th gen fighter has adaptive cycle engines
The F-35 soon. Though, nobody else can even produce the tech themselves, so I don't know where you're going with this? >or the ability to be unmanned
Tempest isn't even real. Also, the F-35 can be - if the need/want ever arises. What is ACE, and Skyborg? >or swarm technology
Even the F/A-18E/F can with MUM-T, as can the F-22 and F-35 >or any of the other countless features the Tempest will have?
You mean the PR paper specs and wishlist? Come back once it's actually produced.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
that’s a lot of words and a lot of cope
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Paper products aren't real, and never will be. It's a wishlist.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>this multinational project by nations among the very few that can handle their shit when it comes to planes won’t have the features they defined because…ummm…because….. BECAUSE, OK???
shut the fuck up retard
TOTAL
whoops meant to say GCAP
?
sexy camo
It's tempest Bro, GCAP is just for the JDM audience who think Japan can do it alone. BAE have lead design on the airframe.
>YF-23 looking fighter
>Italian flag and colors
>IAF
CHE COSA?
Italy joined the ass end of Tempest, and since that is no longer happening as it merged with GCAP, Italy is now joined on the ass end of GCAP with the UK and Japan leading.
GCAP is team tempest, the program is still running, the 2,500 people in the UK working on it are still working on it. Go listen to the official tempest podcast.
>official tempest podcast
The future is fucking weird.
Ukraine's MoD twitter account regularly posts Hispanicy memes, i'm totally fine with it.
>Official tempest podcast
I know this is probably well-managed by PR and diplomat types but I immediately envisioned, and now desperately want, a multinational cast of engineers arguing about pointless minutae to do with the development of this thing.
But why
They want a 6th gen fighter and now they're first in line as a customer and will likely get some contracts for Italian manufacturing out of it as well as priority on orders and maybe even some influence on the design itself (better integration with existing italian air force/navy systems/weapons/etc).
So yeah. If Italy wants a good fighter for the 2040s and beyond this is a good thing.
why not?
Honestly looks really fucking cool, really hope it doesn't end up with trapezoid wing like the f35
The Italian military is very aesthetic.
>APC with a 60mm autocannon and more armor than a tracked Marder IFV
SHITALIAN?
VICTORY
Looks familiar
RCS is RCS.
By the way when i said it looked familiar I didn't want to look like i was bitching or imply that they copied the other design or whatever.
The convergent evolution between the two as the designs refine is getting hilarious. I expect levels of flamewar on part with the fiercest Rafale/Typhoon debates we got until then.
I also find quite interesting that design teams and engineers at the scale of a whole continent are trained in such a similar way than the optimum shapes to fit all requirements are once again so close.
Rafale won that contest by a country mile and I fully expect the FCAS to win here also
ok
Get your head out of your ass Nigel, Rafale F5 will be basically a 4.9 ++ Gen aircraft on par if not better than the F 35
ok
Wow. Open your mouth and remove all doubt eh?
He isn't wrong in saying that the Rafale is better than the Typhoon. Now, on the Rafale being better than an F35 we can have a laugh together
>better than current EFAs
arguable
>better than Phase 4 upgrade EFAs
nah
Spergs a sperg whether he is right or wrong
Thank you for seeing the truth. Again, the F5 will not be rolled out beforr 2030 so we still have to wait but you will all see
>He isn't wrong in saying that the Rafale is better than the Typhoon
he is wrong and has been for at least a decade.
the only edge rafale has over typhoon is a slightly higher theoretical max bomb load, which is made less relevant by typhoons greater range of PGMs, A2A is clearly in typhoons favour, having both superior aerodynamic performance and better A2A weapons, meteor with 2 way datalink being better than meteor with one way datalink and ASRAAM and IRIS-T both shitting on magic and MICA
>superior aerodynamic performance
No the rafale beats typhoon on several metrics inc role and turn rate. The test results were from evaluations for several countries, you can find them yourself. Typhoon does have slightly higher top speed, rate of climb and acceration due to better power/weight ratio.
The Rafale has a far better EW suite that Typhoon is still playing catch up even with the pretorian upgrades. So much so that the Rafale was able to bomb Libyan targets without american EW help, unlike the Typhoon. Also it has AESA radar which again is still not on typhoon for a few more years (and in RAF case only around half the fleet will get them).
Rafale has better aerodynamics at low alt while the Typhoon has the edge at high alt
also iirc Italian and German Typhoons too will receive the ECRS mk.2 iirc
https://www.leonardo.com/en/news-and-stories-detail/-/detail/leonardo_raf_ecrs_mk2_delivery
Still years away, wont even have its first flight until 2024.
Germany is only getting ECRS Mk.1 so far, and will probably stick with it because it's being made in Germany where Mk.2 has no German input.
There are 3 concurrent AESA radars for Typhoon:
>Mk.0 that was developed by the EuroRADAR consortium and is now being put in Kuwaiti and Qatari Eurofighters
>Mk.1 which was mainly developed by Leonardo in Italy, but now transferred to Hensoldt in Germany who will work with Indra in Spain
>Mk.2 which is a UK-specified radar that's being developed by Leonardo in Scotland, but now getting additional support from Leonardo personnel transferred from Italy as they prepare to join the project
Rafale cant sustain a vertical turn, Eurofighter can, thats all we need to know.
A good PESA is better than a shit AESA. ECRS mk2 is a huge step forward, like stupidly so when compared to RBE2, it's further ahead that the radars we currently have on 5th gens. It's an easy de-risk for Tempest which will have a more advanced (more power hungry) version.
>https://uk.leonardo.com/en/news-and-stories-detail/-/detail/futuristic-radar-uk-future-combat-aircraft-capture-equivalent-city-worth-data-in-a-second
Tempest isn't merged with Japan for GCAP now, and the Japanese have better Radars, so expect GCAP to use a Mitsubishi radar. Japan was flying AESA radar in the F-16 (F-2) before the US was.
>isn't
is
Don't bother you're on a anglo board with absolutely abyssmal weapon and military knowledge. They've been fed the Murdock propaganda for half a century.
Just post e-bois with guns.
Why are french people such stupid, angry morons?
>anon makes a respectful informed post with reasonable arguments
>wretched anglo responds with xenophobic, racist remark revealing what a classless, nasty little twerp he his.
>REEEEcism
Okay, cheese-eating surrender monkey.
>Frog makes delusional, overly self important post
>Muh racism
Lmao
Imagine thinking dogfighting capabilities are still the most important metrics.
I mean, convergent evolution is pretty natural since there's only so many ways you can make a plane shape stealthy.
At least, if you are not going the America direction which is making a stealth shape that can fly.
If you want both fighter-tier aerodynamics and thorough stealth, your range of designs drastically narrows.
Seems to be the same as the concept shown off in Japan earlier this year. The model does look more detailed though.
Hopefully, that means they're finalizing the design
Wait, no, this model
doesn't have control surfaces modeled. Weird.
where we’re going you won’t need control surfaces
It’s not going to be as good as whatever america produces
It doesn't need to be, it just needs to be domestically produced.
It can even cost more than what the US is doing and it'll still be a win for the UK/Japan/Italy.
Domestic production is ALWAYS preferable to export, even if the capabilities are a bit worse or it costs more.
It doesn't need to be, and the US military would agree. Some have gotten the idea in their minds that because the US is giving out F-35s like their free samples to everyone, then they'll naturally do the same for any future stealth air superiority fighter. The F-35 is a next-gen F-16 in terms of the desire to have as many partners and allies who want/need/can afford them. The F-22 is not a fighter anyone else but the US operates and to my knowledge it's intended to stay that way.
It'll likely be the same for NGAD and as such, it would be really, really nice if Europeans partners and Allies had something that could be considered comparable in capability and performance that was domestically produced (believe it or not the US *does* actually want its allies to maintain their homegrown defense industries).
The Tempest will probably be excellent, but it doesn't need to be jussasgud as whatever the US comes up with, just the same way the Eurofighter doesn't *need* to be an F-22. It's comparable in performance, and therefore would compliment the F-22 well, as the F-22 would well compliment the Eurofighter. This is how alliances work.
That's fine. America will once again refuse to export their next air superiority fighter so the other nations of the world must produce their own. Since FCAS is a never ever, that leaves GCAP and whatever vaporware the chinks can shit out. It doesn't need to be better than NGAD, it just needs to be better than everything else (which it will be by a large margin).
This and I don't understand american animosity towards the project it's bizarre
>I don't understand american animosity towards the project
There isn't any animosity in particular...
There isn't any, the more Europe invests into defending Europe the better.
I'm just glad it's even slightly different to the same F-22 profile that everyone is lazily reproducing
It's kind of like the F-2 and F-22 fugged
Little bit of the X-2 in there as well.
based
turns out there's not too many different shapes that are both stealthy and airworthy. if you don't want to go full flying triangle you're pretty much locked into an f22/35 looking nose.
>turns out there's not too many different shapes that are both stealthy and airworthy. if you don't want to go full flying triangle you're pretty much locked into an f22/35 looking nose.
right you are. that doesn't change that I'm relieved to see even a slight bit of variety in this area of design, at least.
is that a super tomcat?
technically this is the Super Tomcat, that other art is concept for a navalized ATF, so just an F-22 with variable wings
swing wings will never come back, adaptive engines will do that job better anyway
Oh boy time for the cancerous bong circlejerk to jerk over a wooden mockup, reminder that France, South Korea, Turkey, Sweden and Japan also have wooden mockups of 5th gen fighters.
I'd be mad too if i had to wait until 2050 for my 5.5gen French/German fighter that the international market is rejecting.
You are mistaken, the 2050 date is for the German-French tank, the German-French 5th gen is for 2100.
I like how Sweden basically just admitted they were only paying into Tempest to spy on their R&D to see if they wanted to steal any of it for Gripen upgrades.
They had no interest long-term in the program or buying the planes that are made from it.
And as such they're not buying into GCAP.
You're inventing your own narrative.
> Sources also said Sweden had been interested in tracking GCAP to help support future upgrade work on its own Gripen fighter, as manufactured by Saab.
We'll see what happens i guess :^)
Sweden isn't a joke and has some crazy good EW tech, look at their homegrown AWACS.
They're a welcome addition to the Tempest/GCAP team and will put in as much as they take out.
Well they've offered nothing but scant funding so far.
Eh, I'm sure something is happening behind the scenes.
I hope anyway - they have some good experience with radar's and I don't think Britain can make it's own A2A radars yet (although Japan has experience).
>I don't think Britain can make it's own A2A radars yet
https://www.leonardo.com/en/news-and-stories-detail/-/detail/leonardo_raf_ecrs_mk2_delivery
and before you say
>But Leonardo is Italian!
The division of Leonardo that's making it up in Edinburgh is what was once the British avionics company Ferranti
Oh wow, colour me surprised.
Wasn't underestimating Britains ability btw, just wanted to counter the claim that Sweden wasn't willing put in its own research.
Japan has arguably the MOST experience in manufacturing the small GaN modules for modern AESA radars, and have had AESA radar in fighter jets since the early 2000s.
Do they make their own AWACS?
SAAB's approach to Radars is the whole "not just a radar" thing where they want to integrate basic AWACs functions into it to make it more multi-purpose.
I'm sure they have something to offer the program and aren't just leaching off. Chances are they won't use the Tempest/GCAP and will instead make their own 5/6th gen (single engined more than likely).
>I'm sure they have something to offer the program and aren't just leaching off. Chances are they won't use the Tempest/GCAP and will instead make their own 5/6th gen (single engined more than likely).
Are you talking about Japan or Sweden here?
Japan has already settled on a twin engined air superiority fighter.
Sweden.
They make their own AWACS and will probably continue with a single engine design.
Japan requires twin engines for greater range and ops over water.
It's gripen upgrades until mars?
Nope, the Gripen platform in it's current form is pretty much the limit of what it can do. Whilst it will continue to be produced from what I've heard the Swedes are balls deep in Flygsystem.
They are working with autonomous figher drones adjacent to tempest
Proof?
Doesn't seam like it has made a press release yet. Its bas been something I have heard from acquaintances that work in SAAB so I expected it to be in the open.
Bros...
Imagine
Too much of a brainlet to know if this would actually have any chance of being stealthy but it looks really cool
Looks like the F-16XL wings on an F-35.
MY BODY IS READY
Soon™
I like their roundel, it seems to be quite different from the F/A-XX which is a flying wing. Why you figure that?
You reckon different doctrines?
Because they're still trying to produce a 5th gen larping as a 6th gen. They took the McDonnell Douglas/BAE JSF design and added two engines to it. How original, and forward-thinking.
Japan already has and there'd be no point in designing something that doesn't fit in the battlespace of the future. They'd more likely use a similar design as the F/A-XX but cut corners if they struggled to produce it.
>Japan already has
Where? Are you talking about the 5th gen MINUS japtor? Making an entry level 5th gen with US help is FAR from making a domestic 6th gen.
>with US help
Show me on what part of the X-2 was US made. Be specific.
Most of it. Where do you think they got the design from? LM.
Hahahahahahaha
Good job confirming you have no idea what you're talking about.
Do you REALLY think Lockheed did that and then NEVER published any media info, no PR blurbs, no web pages about Japanese/Lockheed cooperation like they do with all the F-35 and F-2 milestones and collab work.
I mean come on. Post ANYTHING that links lockheed to the Mitsubishi X-2. I mean it, literally ANY contract or research/dev work.
>Do you REALLY think Lockheed did that and then NEVER published any media info, no PR blurbs
Depends on their cooperation agreements. Japan can't even make a commercial jet, or an F-16 knock-off by themselves, and you expect me to believe they jump into the 5/6th gen fighter arena? KEK. Defending nips on 4Chinz isn't going to get you laid by some flat faced nip whore, my obese fren. Time to go to bed, Kurt.
So your source for Lockheed is "trust me bro, the nips couldn't do it alone"
Wow. I'm convinced now. The fact Japan finished the X-2 flight tests and then asked Northrop and Lockheed to submit design proposals for a joint US/Japanese fighter surely means Japan was already working with Lockheed. I mean if Japan JUST finished a 10 year development project with lockheed it makes perfect sense that they'd then IMMEDIATELY go ask lockheed to work on ANOTHER decade+ long fighter development project.
I mean come on, it doesn't even make sense lmao. Your argument isn't based in reality and contradicts basically everything we DO know about the Mitsubishi X-2 / F-X and now GCAP.
Is lockheed also secretly involved with GCAP too?
They've been working together since the F-2 sharing tech. You know this, though, my obese nip loving fren.
Of course, Mitsubishi supplies the GaN modules for the newest AN/SPY-6 and other radars, US defense contractor buy Japanese tech all the time.
But you're retarded if you think Lockheed had ANYTHING directly to do with the Mitsubishi X-2. The entire point of the X-2 project was to attempt to develop a domestic 5th gen demonstrator, if they couldnt do that without Lockheeds help, then there would have been no point to even run the project in the first place, they could've just asked Northrop or Lockheed to submit design proposals (which is exactly what Japan did after the X-2 flight tests finished and Japan decided not to go forward with production).
Again, it makes zero sense what you're saying. You're saying Japan had Lockheed develop the X-2, cancel it, just to then go back to lockheed and ask them to submit another proposal after JUST finishing the supposed Lockheed martin X-2?
Even you know this is pure fantasy that logically doesn't even come close to making sense.
>Mitsubishi supplies the GaN modules for the newest AN/SPY-6 and other radars
No, they don't.
Mitsubishi electric makes the best GaN modules out there right now, Raytheon is using new GaN modules on SPY-6
Maybe they're not buying them FROM Japan, but the Japanese were leading the field on that front and the US has talked specifically about cooperating with Mitsubishi in future radar development, especially for ballistic missile radars in Japan and Korea.
>Mitsubishi electric makes the best GaN modules out there right now
Proof? Even the J-2 AESA was behind what the US had then.
>Raytheon is using new GaN modules on SPY-6
Yeah, made by them.
>Maybe they're not buying them FROM Japan
You talked out of your obese greasy asshole, then?
Not that anon, but SPY-7 uses Japanese produced GaN TMRs. It wouldn't shock me if SPY-6 did as well.
> Aegis software variant Baseline 9 already tracked live targets using a prototype version of Lockheed Martin SSR hardware powered by multi-purpose Fujitsu GaN from Japan.
https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2018-01-11-Lockheed-Martin-Demonstrates-Next-Generation-Aegis-Ashore-Solution
That is only because it will be used on nip AEGIS ships, and only that reason. LM has had US made GaN since 2015 from Wolfspeed. SPY-6 is Raytheon, not LM.
https://www.raytheonmissilesanddefense.com/news/2021/11/18/gallium-nitride-technology-advancements
SPY-7 has a host of installations scheduled, Lockheed also said last year or the year before that they'd be happy to go head to head against SPY-6 as they're confident they'll perform favorably against it.
> Lockheed Martin asserted various points of SPY-7 superiority over SPY-6 including having a larger logistics pool to support it with over 10,000 basic modules produced by the end of 2021 and that SPY-7 allows individual modules to be swapped out in under a minute while the system still radiates.
> In a technical chart comparison between the systems, the company said unlike SPY-6, SPY-7 has polarization diversity, on-array digital beam forming, low power substates, requires a power supply of 375 volts vs. 1000 volts of direct current, has three times the search capacity, 1.2 times the raid capacity, and 1.3 times the range.
Lockheed also said they'd be interested in offering a version of SPY-7 for refitting old Burkes.
Of course, LM would say that. Doesn't change that fact that the nip GaN modules are only used because they're going on a nip AEGIS ship.
So are the Canadian SPY-7s using Canadian GaN TMRs?
How about the Spanish ones?
The Japanese TMRs are higher performing, but the US wants to prop up US industry, and since Northrop has been developing GaN TMRs in the US, even though they ARE a bit worse, they're good enough to be comparable and they're made in the US by a US company. So yeah, even though Lockheeds SPY-7 is a great radar, almost all american projects are going to use Raytheon SPY-6 derivatives because of the US domestic industry ties. Also if the US pumps enough money into Raytheons GaN development, we should surpass Japanese TMRs in the next decade or two.
>Northrop
Raytheon
>The Japanese TMRs are higher performing
Proof?
Japanese TMRs have always been higher performing, even back in the 1990s when the US was looking at Japanese TMRs they were shocked at how small they were, the kicker was japan had sent the US their early prototype and the prototype they were working on internally had even smaller TMRs than the one they sent to the US.
That being said, I have no "proof" so to speak, just based on conversations with people in the navy (and naval contractors) about various naval radar development projects over the last 20 years.
I happen to live just a few miles from the main navy radar testing facility in the US.
>Japanese TMRs have always been higher performing
Proof?
>even back in the 1990s when the US was looking at Japanese TMRs they were shocked at how small they were, the kicker was japan had sent the US their early prototype and the prototype they were working on internally had even smaller TMRs than the one they sent to the US.
No. I remember the US being impressed that they made them, though they were low powered and not of much use outside of a lab. That's what I remember from the reports released then.
The report basically says the japanese TMRs were equal to the best US ones, but again, japan was already working on even smaller TMRs at the same time the US was evaluating the first one.
>The report basically says the japanese TMRs were equal to the best US ones
Where?
Who knows. They may? I doubt Canada can make them, though.
spec ed class is that way
Cope.
can you point out which 5th gen fighter has adaptive cycle engines, or the ability to be unmanned, or swarm technology, or any of the other countless features the Tempest will have?
>can you point out which 5th gen fighter has adaptive cycle engines
The F-35 soon. Though, nobody else can even produce the tech themselves, so I don't know where you're going with this?
>or the ability to be unmanned
Tempest isn't even real. Also, the F-35 can be - if the need/want ever arises. What is ACE, and Skyborg?
>or swarm technology
Even the F/A-18E/F can with MUM-T, as can the F-22 and F-35
>or any of the other countless features the Tempest will have?
You mean the PR paper specs and wishlist? Come back once it's actually produced.
that’s a lot of words and a lot of cope
Paper products aren't real, and never will be. It's a wishlist.
>this multinational project by nations among the very few that can handle their shit when it comes to planes won’t have the features they defined because…ummm…because….. BECAUSE, OK???
shut the fuck up retard
YF-23 LIVES
SHE LIVES