what's a good magnification for effectively engaging targets with a 5.56 AR15 16"/20" barrel in a terrain that allows LOS of even 600m? so the rang I'm talking about is from 200 to 500 mostly.
I never tried rifle optics myself so it's hard to get a reference of what the various magnifications allow you to do in terms of seeing the target and hitting it using the reticle.
for example would the 4x of the acog and elcan be appropriate or would the target be too small at 500m? would an 8 or 10x LPVO be too much at that distance and make target acquisition hard?
same for 6x, these are the questions I'm asking myself.
are there any good sources that compare those magnifications and show pictures?
otherwise I tried zooming with my phone to get a clue.
2x is the least you can go because no 1x is effective enough in CQB unless paired up with a laser but if you pair a dot with it.... It just becomes redundant to even have an LPVO in the first place
the TA31 is the acog you should get. it is the best jack of all trades optic in the family. its lightweight, has a good magnification and a good objective window. the only downside is the eye relief but its not as bad as people make it out to be.
t. owner of many silly acogs
how do you afford so many acogs?
buy knockoff on aliexpress, then buy real one on amazon. put knockoff in box and return to amazon.
seriously?
buying used goofball models off ebay
this hasn't worked for years
So not the ta02?
everyone jumped on the ledcog because the rmr mount is further ahead. the issue is that regardless of where the rmr is located you still have the rear end of the acog bumping into your nods. its really just personal preference.
The standard 5.56mm bullet is already gassed out at 300m. You're barking up the wrong bush if you want it to perform at 600m.
What you really want is a 6.5mm Grendel. Now that will put some hair on your nuts.
good luck with availability and price of the ammo, ballistics is not the only relevant consideration
I like the idea of a red dot and 3x magnifier myself but have only ever used a mystery meat scope. A midrange thermal scope would also be on my list if I ever got tired of having any money.
This, sadly. Just get an ar-10 if you for some reason need more power at long range. Having a gun you can shoot is the most important thing.
6.5cm is like .15-20c more than 308 for similar ammo. It’s one of the most popular sporting cartridges in North America at this point. You guys talk like it’s 6.5-284 Norma or something
>6.5cm is like .15-20c more than 308 for similar ammo
So if you get 500 rounds, you will pay $100 more for 6.5cm than 308. That's too much. They should cost the same, or 6.5cm should cost less.
So literally everything but 7.62x39, 308, and 556 are pointlessly expensive? Jesus man, how fricking poor are you? 500$ ars were a mistake…
I may be in the minority here, but if you're rocking a 20" barrel, I say get a mid power 3-15x variable scope and an offset micro red dot. I can be an expensive proposition, but it's so freaking fast. Just cant the gun slightly and you're at 1x for stuff inside 50 yards. Anything from 50 yards out to 400 (probably the max you'll want to go with 5.56) and you'll feel like you can't miss.
You can't clear rooms with a 20 inch ar unless you have grenades and civilians can't have grenades. So don't bother with 20 inch ars.
>clear rooms
hahahahaha. The frick are you talking about ya goof?
Imagine a door. It seems like a normal door. But you've never been through this door before. Death is waiting for you behind this door. The souls of more men have been killed in doorways like this than every other tactical senecio combined. Are you ready to open this door?
Frick no. why would I put myself in that position in the first place? OP isn't talking about that shit and if you find yourself in that position you done fricked up. CQB room clearing is a complete and utter waste of time except for those who specifically need to do it for a living, and they usually have all the training, doodads, and support to make it happen as well as it can. But an everyday regular person like you or me? Death sentence and an exercise in stupidity. Why bother?
well it can happen, my POU is shtf, larp, and combat rifle
If I find myself needing to enter an unknown building that has a high probability of armed humans inside, I've really fricked up bad. I just can't imagine a reason to need to do that unless I'm starving and I'm trying to over power multiple possible armed people for some food (i'm sure there's lower hanging fruit than that), or I'm trying to save a loved one. Other than that, if they're preventing me from going where I need to go from their position, I'd rather burn the place down.
>burn the place down
this guy gets it.
>Anon walks up to house with lit match
>gets shot
>"Here lies Captain Dipshit. He thought he could burn down a house with multiple armed men inside"
>walks up to house to make "tactical CQB entry"
>gets shot
Kek. You don't have to walk up to a place to light it on fire. I think you might've been brain damaged by video games. How old are you? And don't you lie to me.
My target house is one of many in a dense, urbanised area. My approach was covered. Hell, I made my own entryway with explosives. Your arson fantasy is probably something like this.
>your arson fantasy
>but but but my target house is this particular way!
Uh huh...look at whos fantasizing here. Entry on a building that probably has armed people in it is one of the riskiest things you can do.
At least I'm slightly more prepared for it because my rifle isn't obscenely long, like your m16 is.
>M16
Haha, yeah, we're done here. It was fun. You mean the hypothetical 16"-20" AR proposed by OP? good luck having meaningful results past 100 yards with your SBR.
You could always go turbo moron Black person and put a 4x power ACOG on a 10.3 like my department did. Not sure why they thought this was a better setup than the EOTech they used to have, but whatever. It's zeroed to take shots at 15 yds, so when we shoot at farther distances, you have to aim low as frick.
man thats tragic
Sounds like you lack initiative. Tell your boss that 4x is too much for the 15 yard shots that are expected of officers and that the eotechs were much more suited to the mission.
>telling another man, one who is your superior, that they are wrong about something gun related
cruisin for a bruisin
I'm a sharpshooter and I tell my boss all the time that the 4-16x scopes on our bolt actions are full moron. All of our shots are usually close range stuff. Some guy holding a baby that we're scoping through the window from his driveway. A dude we're looking at from across the street is 95% of sharpshooter scenarios. We need 1-10x scopes ideally.
Shoot your boss and take control of acquisitions by force, or at least call him a gay until he gets you guys RMRs
They originally told us that we were gonna get RMRs, but some fat boomer in admin (who never spent a day in SWAT) in charge of approving the purchases evidently either denied our request or fricked up and forgot to order them.
>15 yard zero
>acog
Lmfao, police in charge of firearms setup, frickin moronic should be a dot+qd mag
What the frick man. The rifle itself is dope, but damn that acog is wasted
Are you saying that if you had to clear your house and all you had was a 10.3 inch with acog, you couldn't do it?
The battle of Fallujah disproved your entire homosexuals argument, moron.
The whole SPR trend has wildly exaggerated the effective range of 5.56 as a caliber, that being said 600 yard shots are easy with a 5.56 out of 16"+
>The battle of Fallujah
122 KIA US troops is your idea of disproving? Frick off, moron. You don't even know what happened in Fallujah.
are you saying that 122 dead jarheads and 4,500 dead sandniggrrs can teach us a lesson about 20 inch barrels?
I know more than you and know you're a coping homosexual
Plenty of houses stateside have been cleared with 18”-20” barrel mossberg 599/590’s and rem 870’s, and those are same length or even longer than a 20” AR
POU? Is this Nutnfancy or Tactical Doodle?
nutnfancy is based
Definitely, I’d love to run around the desert with him one time. But I wouldn’t let him paint my gun in solid FDE alumahyde.
TAN CERAKOTE
I thought he was a spray and bake type.
>CQB room clearing is a complete and utter waste of time
The only smart anon in the thread here, there is NO reason to ever use CQB when you can just flatten it with explosive charges.
My man
>i had my opinion changed immediately by a funny meme picture
YOU DON'T FRICKING HAVE EXPLOSIVES. you're A FRICKING CIVILIAN. All you can choose from are SBRs and 16 inch barrel rifles. Please understand.
Who cares about clearing rooms. We're not SWAT. 20 inch barrels were good enough in 'Nam, they're good enough today. Step with length envy.
good cqb doesn't really require micro weapons anyway. shoot through the door, it's not the 90s anymore.
16/mid is best, but 20/rifle is way better than sbr stuff. more reliable and the parts hold up better. no flash
>16/mid is best, but 20/rifle is way better than sbr stuff.
that must be why everyone whos job it is to run into buildings and shoot people use long-barreled ARs
you don't even realize that it was a beautiful dream and it's over forever
>20 inch barrels were good enough in 'Nam
You sure about that?
Yeah the problem is they were in nam and not San Francisco
yeah. nobody in Vietnam complained about replacing their 26 inch barrel with the sweet, slick M16, at least not for weight and size
Use a 20 inch aug that's the same size as an m4
They cleared rooms in Iraq with 20" M16s.
Is it ideal? No.
Is it a good idea to kick in a door in the first place? Also no.
How often do you plan to kick in doors during the happening?
Which of the following scenarios do you think is more likely?
>You 100% need to be inside THAT particular building despite not knowing who or what is inside of it
>There's an enemy 150yd+ away
Marines cleared fallujah with full length m16s
No they didn't. 122 marines died in Fallujah and their deaths were directly attributed to their rifles being inadequate for CQB. It's what caused the army to shift to the 14.5 inch M4A1 in the first place.
Huh, looks like they did
>Not including the part with the losses.
Here you go.
Don't forget the first battle of Fallujah as well.
30 kias to (temporarily) secure a 300k pop urban community. What a fricking massacre
Sorry meant to attach
Imagine if 30 cops died in Denver at some protest. The country would explode.
Which is unfortunate, because knowing a few Denver/aurora cops personally, they probably deserved it
Cops in a protest is completely different from soldiers attacking a city defended by thousands of heavily armed militants, a lot of whom have military training moron.
what the hell is your problem.
20in barrels. They are tactically outdated. There's no reason to use them today.
do you really think that if the Marines at felujua had all been rocking whatever 300blkdogshit you keep under the bed there would have been 0 casualties instead of 100? in heavy urban fighting against an enemy that had spent weeks digging in?
there are good reasons to avoid barrels under 16 inches. there are a few benefits, but not many. it makes no difference really
As a civilian, you clear a room by throwing a molotov wienertail through the window. Door kicking will get you killed no matter what your barrel length is.
4-8x is good enough for a 14.5x114 if you're not a gutless, shootless, nouns homosexual.
>what's a good magnification for effectively engaging targets with a 5.56 AR15 16"/20" barrel in a terrain that allows LOS of even 600m?
1x if you're on a flat range with easily identified targets. I do out to 600 with a red dot. Magnification becomes useful for target ID when you're out in a "real" aka complex environment where your target is something stealthy like a deer or a human
hence my question
Oh please, it was way easier to make shots at those ranges with magnification. Not everyone is trying to hit anywhere on 3 foot piece of steel at those distances.
you need roughly 1x per hundred yards, so ideally a 1x-6x variable or the elcan 1.5x/6x. if you want a fixed power optic, then a 4x acog is probably what you want, you'll have to push it a bit but the glass is good enough to be pushed.
x5 prism optics exist these days. Not sure why the frick they exist since 5x is the penultimate "worst at everything" magnification, but there you go.
>5x is the penultimate "worst at everything" magnification
that's why I left them off.
What about 3x? I have a Steiner 3x prism on my AR I haven't taken out and zeroed yet. The glass looks ridiculously clear in my backyard but the reticle is kind of small and hard to pick up if illum is off. Wondering if I should hang onto it, or just buy a micro dot to throw on top since it has a rail.
3x is workable with the right reticle. I prefer a massive horseshoe to use as a flashsight.
3x isn't really that workable at 600y/m though, not unless your targets are walking around in the desert while wearing blaze orange.
I think we're about to get really good 5x options.
20" with a 5x is my current setup
Nah. I find 1x is too slow between 50 and 100 yards. Shooting at partially concealed targets at 100 yards with a dot only sucks. Especially if you've been moving and/or are shooting off hand. 3-4x at that distance is really nice, definitely more accurate, and I find somewhat faster. I mean shit, even between 50 and 100 yards, a silhouette target behind a barrier is just a sliver.
why not the elcan 1-4?
is the 1.5 really a problem is muh non true 1x a meme?
>why not the elcan 1-4?
because OP specifically said
>200 to 500 mostly
metres not euros
>for example would the 4x of the acog and elcan be appropriate or would the target be too small at 500m?
Torso, easy hit. Head, difficult and definitely not a reliable first round hit even with a very precise gun.
>would an 8 or 10x LPVO be too much at that distance and make target acquisition hard?
Absolutely not. The problem with them is that they are heavy and will make your gun slower to use, especially at close range.
>same for 6x
Around here makes for a somewhat defined head size target at 500m. Again, lpvo are heavy and slow.
That's just like my opinion but I have shot a lot at those distances with a variety of magnifications. IMO, if you build your ar15 to be a 500m gun you're already wrong and should invest in larger gun because you're going to be heavily handicapped by small amounts of wind and the cheap bulk ammunition you're likely shooting with inconsistent groups and velocities.
the idea would be to have 556 for the usual volume of fire, fire and maneuver, ffff argument, and focus on mid range and closer range, but also being able to hit or at least be precise enough to suppress at the ar 15 max effective range, so 1-4 or 1-6 seems best bc at the mid and close range they're optimal and at "long"(for the ar15) they're still ok but targets start getting small, while the 1-8 o 1-10 have nice sized targets at 600m but they're too zoomed for the mid distances, and i wouldn't build an ar purposefully for 600m, but I want it to be capable at it
also the vcog 1-6 seems good for my role, in the end I'm torn between elcan specter dr 1-4 and vcog 1-6, with acog ta31 at 2nd place, for closer range stuff I'd make a 2nd upper receiver with an eotech exps2, even tho I also like the aimpoint comp m4s and the trijicon mro HD
not that the 2nd upper is that much needed, and for now I dont own any of these things so I'm just fantasizing basically
>the idea would be to have 556 for the usual volume of fire, fire and maneuver
If you attempt this by yourself against multiple hostiles who possess even a modicum of training you will die. It wont matter what gear, or skills you have.
>fricked
Every fricking moron thinks they can instantly transform into John Wick and take on 8 guys at once in da boooog and they're the fricking loot bags that will get their heads with their $70,000 of gear blasted off from 800 yards away by a one eyed boomer with a .30-06 deer rifle
I'm aware of this, and I'm also aware that in an hypothetical shift scenario your doctrine as a survivor round be' different than the military, so yes actually 7.62x51 might warrant some consideration
>7.62x51 might warrant some consideration
Maybe. In my opinion, being lighter with quicker follow up shots would be better youre going to want to be able to haul fricking ass as quickly as possible. 16 inch with 77 grain rounds. I use an 18 inch, buts thats just because I need a rifle length rail so I can get better extension for my arms.
> make contact
>fire a couple of rounds off
>bug out
>get distance and cover between you and hostiles.
>repeat as necessary until you lose them
>reveal position to enemy without plan to neutralise enemy
>rely on cardio to save yourself by running in a random direction and hoping it's not in the direction of more enemies
No offense but you're gonna die fast.
Huh? I hope youre drunk.
>reveal position to enemy without plan to neutralise enemy
Make contact. that means they see me( i would be trying to avoid that of course.) Im not worried so much about an enemy, im worried about enemy(s)
> relying on cardio
frick yes. you should to. because you do.
> run in random direction
No. you should always be noting cover and concealment. Practice this in your everyday life.
>die fast
Hopefully. Its better than dying slow.
You're falling for the classic trap of thinking you can outrun bullets. If you're seen first, you're probably not going to be the one doing the suppressing. You can't seriously plan to take a few pot-shots at where you think the ambushers are and then just run away as the ambusher cowers in fear of your return fire. They'd kill you easily. A firefight is a lot like a treacherous fiancé; You're engaged and you'd rather not be, but someone has to die for you to successfully disengage.
I'm going to take your life
Right after I take your anus?
2.5x - 10x lpvo
4x ACOG w/RMR stack
Useless. Imagine trying to do CQB with that.
>skill issue
>all combat is cqb
I can't believe I took sides with a trip
I can't believe I replied
I do CQB with you're mom every night
>what's a good magnification for effectively engaging targets with a 5.56 AR15 16"/20" barrel in a terrain that allows LOS of even 600m
there's really only 1 option
Interesting LAM position.
better balance.
also, if you put it where your fingers can get it, you don't need a pad. That's nice for a lot of reasons
Ive owned acogs, fixed power, lpvo and dots. My current scope is a 3-9 credo. You can get away with lower magnification, but Id recommend at least 10 power variable scope with a large objective lens. Japanese glass or better.
hows using the 4x on the acog?
why do you recommend 10x instead of the lower ones like 4 and 6?
Very good. I used to shoot fire extinguishers out to 560 yds with a .308. However, i think its much better to be able to shoot at exposed parts of the body, then aim COM.
>10x With rifles and ammunition becoming more precise, the ability to hit smaller targets at longer distances can be very advantageous. Instead of shooting at a human shaped object, you can aim at an exposed limb, or other extremity. Be able to see further, with more detail is very desirable in those situations It also makes longer distance shooting more enjoyable.
>morons arguing about how to better clear buildings
No amount of gear or training will prepare you for the meatgrinder that is CQB in buildings. If you need to clear a building and not lose half your people in the process your only option is to gas or smoke them out or burn it or shell it into rubble. None of this relates to optics.
Anyway OP an LPVO or ACOG sounds right up your alley.
I'm in love with the elcan, but yes the acog is in my list too, along with vcog 1-6 or 1-8, honestly I'd have to try them IRL and look through them and shoot to really understand the feel but unfortunately I cant for the time being
I've handled my fair share of optics and I personally went with Eokek with a magnifier simply because it suits my use case best. For the 200-500 yard bracket I'd say the venerable TA31 is hard to beat
>durable
>FOV wider than your mom
>comparatively light against an LPVO
>everything you need and nothing you don't
In my personal opinion LPVOs are pointless. Like yeah 6x sounds cool but the 1x usually sucks so much people choose to mount a piggyback red dot instead and honestly when are you going to have it set to 3x or 5x or anything that isn't max or minimum power? That's just my view though, I'd recommend getting out there and seeing if any of your local stores have scopes on display for you to look through and see what provides the best eyebox and clarity for you
500 is easy with an AR. I shoot 500 with my acog and 16" easily. I personally don't care for lpvos after seeing so many of them break, they're also heavy and much more expensive.
are they that fragile?
where have you seen them break?
in reviews I see them dropped and they hold but ofc there's other types of shock
10 inch truss newtonian
go big or go home
the mk12 was made exactly for this role and used a 2.5-10x24.
Just get a good (Nightforce, SWFA, Trijicon) scope around that magnification and you'll be fine.