How historically accurate is this legendary duel between Hector and Achilles as far as the techniques, armor and weaponry used? And did duels between champions like this really happen in ancient Greece?
And was the Trojan War a myth or did it occur?
ANCIENT GREEK WARFARE
moron here: why did Troy assemble its soldiers outside their city walls to fight the Greeks instead making the Greeks attack the walls?
To showcase just how shit the movie was.
They tried to destroy the Trojans as they disembarked their ships before they could attack the city first. They went back to the walls after being beaten back by Patrolus disguised as Achilles who was refusing to fight at all. Patroclus was supposed to bring the armor back once they retreated and not pursue them to the gates but he did and was killed by Hector who thought it was Achilles. Patroclus was Achilles lifelong bro and his dead enrages Achilles enough to join the war. He later kills Hector and later they build the horse to get in the walls and all that.
*In the Iliad. In the movie Patroclus steals the armor and Achilles doesn't know he was pretending to be him. In the Illiad he gets Achilles permission with the above caveat to not pursue if the Trojans retreated.
>lifelong bro
They were lovers
They weren't, moron.
You fell for leftist distortions of history.
The Song of Achilles is fan fiction, moron.
It's an objectively homosexual movie. My first job was at a video rental store when those still existed and my closeted gay manager would play that movie in the store all the time. And then his wretched wife with a horrible looking face would call every night and bother him about stuff, while customers would say things like "psst... we've SEEN him out at [gay bar]." Good stuff.
Its not. Frick off, moron. They don't even imply Petroclus is his lover, in the film he's his younger cousin. Achilles is at camp fricking a b***h the whole time the battle where Petroclus is killed. homosexuals always do this shit with movies like this, there was an earlier Brad Pitt movie I remember being super popular with homos despite not containing any gay shit - A River Runs Through It maybe? I don't remember the name.
Anyway, the Iliad doesn't say anything about them being homos and Paris abducts and rapes a b***h not a dude. In the film there's no rape but as previously stated the relationship that later Greek poets projected onto Achielles and Petroclus is literally no where to be found, theyre related in the 2004 film.
*if you want an ancient Greece film with PLENTY of homosexual shit including scenes of dudes gang raping a guy as he screams for mercy, watch Colin Farrel's Alexander.
>Patroclus was Achilles lifelong bro
That's a way to say, lol
homie, the Illiad says zero about a sexual relationship. He was Achilles squire from childhood onward. Later ancient Greek poets projected a homosexual relationship onto them and argued in their writings why it was supposed to be inferred they were gay in the Illiad even though it says nothing of the kind. Socrates also argued against them having a sexual relationship in his writings.
tl;Dr that tradition came after Homer and was a projection of other Greek homos
>He was Achilles squire from childhood onward.
While a few ancient greeks (far from the majority) didn't agree about Patroclus, a "squire" in that era was pretty much guaranteed to be a frickboy, so most greeks assumed they were lovers.Our judeo-christian idea about relationships wasn't invented until many centuries later and it doesn't apply.
Same with Antinous and Hadrian, It was a well know trope in antiquity
Bronze Age Greece was vastly different from the Classical Greece you're thinking about.
This. Squire was frick boy by the time later poets and philosophers argued Achilles was clearly banging Patroclus even though Homer never says this - according to them it was just something "inferred and clearly recognized by learned men", ie they fricked boys and projected it onto Achilles and Patroclus
Making them homosexuals was originally Christian slander against pagans, then got accepted by pedoisraelite academics
>Socrates
>his writings
homie Socrates didn't write anything (as far as we know). All we know of him comes from the writings of people who knew him, like Platon.
My bad, I meant Plato. In Symposium.
https://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/
If you want some archaeological stuff.
The amount we have on historical Mycenae is pretty weak, however the case raised in "Helen of Troy: Goddess, Princess, prostitute" was that the harsh sexual divide you saw in more classical and archaic Greece did not seem to exist on the basis of the archaeology. Major sexual exclusion of the sexes (IE Purdah in Islam, the Athenians and Spartans thinking middle/upper class women should be restricted to the home and be baby-factories) tends to lead to prison-gay homosexual relations.
So tl;dr
>Actual Mycenae = not gay
>Archaic Homeric Greece = the relationship was a lot more than just some impartial shield-bearer business, but you could make a case either way like you did.
>Classical Greece = oh yeah them nigguhs ZESTY
>Hiding inside your house when someone is at your door insulting your honor
Sounds like something s woman would do.
>.t Iron Loser
go back to your demon dick ladies.
The battle of Troy never happened
Pretty sure it did, it's in the archeological record in the historical Greek city of Troy at sublayer Troy VIIa
>t.
yes it did, I was there
>The battle of Troy never happened
Sure it did, because Troy VIh-VIIa was destroyed with violence.
It just wasn't like in Homer's story
This. I absolutely believe there was a war and Troy was sacked in the period described by Homer. It's the characters and their interactions that is likely fiction but set in a real event
The characters could be real but simply flanderized much like RoTK.
Possibly yeah
False
The movie is not accurate to the Iliad
>Paris steals Helen against her will
>min beats Paris outside troy walls (he is saved by the gods)
>Ajax commits suicide after the end of the war
>ag returns home
Remember that the book is written by the Greeks, they would not portray themselves as lil gays.
I thought Agamemnon was killed by the sister of someone he raped?
Agamemnon was killed by his wife who was killed by his son.
There's a trilogy of plays about it.
Uh the Trojans are the Trojans and Achilles and his forces are Greeks in the movie just as the Illiad and in the movie the Greeks arent portrayed as lil gays. Brad Pitt as Achilles is bad ass.
Only lil gays are Trojans, even if there's no rape in the movie
>historicslly accurate
>a fictional book
>the author probably never existed either
It's based on historical events, which has been proven a long time ago, among other reasons due to Homer singing about shit he couldn't possibly know about 300 years later which was confirmed by archaeological evidence.
Homer also existed and the current overwhelming consensus is that the illiad and Odyssey were written by the same guy.
But Homer didn't actually write them right? Like he literally sang all this shit to someone who liked it enough to adapt it to parchment as it is, right?
Alexander the Great called Hephastion his Patroclus. People say they butt fricked.
So of the sword and spear autists here can answer better than me but Id say most of this duel is just Hollywood choreography to look cool - I know for a fact that move Achilles does with swinging his spear around while lifting and bending one leg is an Ancient Chinese spear technique. That's also part of the Spear combos in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, always wondered if they modeled that animation off this movie or just took it from Chinese history like the movie clearly did.
I'm going to save you time by telling you that it's a movie and therefore nothing about it is historically accurate. There. I've saved you a lifetime of pointless thoughts every time you watch a movie. No need to thank me.
As for your question about duels between champions, literature is replete with such things and in the absence of any other evidence we may as well believe they happened, or choose to believe that they're just a literary device.
I meant are the fighting techniques and their weapons and armor period accurate you nonce
>Ask two questions
>Get both answered
>Throw a weird tantrum
I'm so sorry neither answer is what you wanted.
Later people answered it and not on the homosexualy wienersucker way you did.
*in
Cool goalposts, I'm not even him.
Goalposts? I asked if the shit was at all accurate to the period and if the war happened and he answered like an arrogant homosexual "UH ACLTUALLY AS AN EXPART LEMME JUST TELL YA ITS A MOVIE BUD AND NOT REEL". Yeah ok, how about elaborating on that a little like subsequent posters did. If I wanted to read a few sentences from some smughomosexual pseud I'd just ask google.
>I asked if the war happened
You didn't ask that at all, my god, you're so mad you're making up some random shit. Also he's right and you're a dumb homosexual. There has never been a thread where someone asked if a movie was accurate and someone said yes.
Check OP, last line moron.
>And was the Trojan War a myth or did it occur?
>was the Trojan War a myth or did it occur?
The red pill is that it does not matter if it is myth, an allegory, or if it happened word for word. It is part of the western canon, a legend that makes up our shared history. Every epic that you have ever heard was in some way or another influenced by the Illiad, and by that metric it transcends fact. It is Truth.
Is it true that survivors from Troy founded Rome or is that just Roman propaganda?
Roman myths to make them feel better. They started as a bunch of literal hillbilly bandits kidnapping women from their neighbours.
that's note even rome's founding myth, what the frick is this moronic thread?
>What is the Aeneid?
Worse than a moron. Willfully ignorant despite having no handicap. Stop posting
>that's note even rome's founding myth
Rome's foundation myth is multiple choice.
The Romulus/Remus is just the earliest one we know about, they rewrote it once or twice.
As for OP, we don't have the material on hand to be able to make judgment calls for techniques of the late bronze age. In terms of the armor then generally no, nothing in it matches up beyond the broad obvious strokes of 'yeah they had helmets and greaves, no they didn't look like they did there'. See the Salimbeti link or just google bronze age greeks for an idea of how they might have looked.
Mycenaean artwork can depict what seems like duels. And when you have more irregular 'tribal' kind of warfare (The Mycenaeans being halfway between barbarians and settled proper palace-system bronze age Middle East states. Hittites once listed them as one of the great kings along with them/Egypt/Assur/Babylon/Mitanni maybe but then erased them, albeit that may be because of Mycenaeans fricking around with Hittite interests) then dueling is inevitable.
Utter fictitious propaganda, but some conclude the Etruscans do have a link to Anatolia linguistically or maybe genetically. So it's possible that there was some ancient and lost tales about how their ancestors once came from that part of the world, which eventually by Hellenization led into "Oh yeah we wuz Trojans" instead of "We wuz Padawalliwanis who fled from King mushikiwazzi during the great wars over the purple fig." IE some pre-Hellenized mythos lost to us that the Etruscans or Latins had.
So do you think there was a Trojan War and Troy was sacked when Homer said?
Yes, I believe there was some kind of a war that saw the destruction of Troy, which was a historical city. In what form this took we can't be certain. Wilusia is accounted for in Hittite records, being the historical Illion/Troy. Piyama-radu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piyama-Radu is thought to be a historical Priam, and it's worth noting he had his daughter marry the Mycenaean governor of Miletus. The historical troy's ruins have layers with evidence of destruction that coincides with the Bronze Age Collapse and the migration/invasions of Sea People.
I don't think Piyama-radu ruled Troy when it fell (or perhaps ruled Troy at all), but the simple answer is I think during the bronze age collapse some ancestors of some of the Greeks sacked Troy and then a mythology developed around it. In the stew of Aegean cultures with every little tribe and city-state and village and clan having their own myths and legends and folk tales, they all stewed together and by Homer's time became a collaborative fanfiction.
But tl;dr yes, Troy existed, Troy was sacked by Mycenaeans around 1200 BC but the fine details (the heroes, who killed who) are not true.
You remind me with the 'shit he couldn't possibly know about' - Odysseus is given a boar tusk helmet at a time when it's dubious Homer's greeks knew they existed or had any such relics hanging around. Nestor describes the proper use of chariotry (in formation working together) at a time when even during the Trojan War (if 1200 BC) chariots seem to have ceased to be used this way. Rather, chariots were used this way by the Mycenaeans well older than 1200 BC. There's more, but this is like if you had a blind French poet in 1000 AD able to tell you about how the French 500 years ago wore suebian knots.
>Are Chariots really obsolete?
The Britons insist the easterners are just using them wrong. You can’t just roll alone into massed orderly heavy infantry. You need combined warfare with archery and infantry support, harass and exploit weaknesses at key moments!
Yet, is it worth the logistical print, when you see them consume so much high quality oil (for wheel lubrification)?
>you will never be a Bronze-age Indo-European conquering the world with your Wunderwaffen chariot (much like the Mongols would thousands of years later)
*tod *krewti, bʰréh2tēros 🙁
>Source Der Spiegel
>Text in French
>Shows deprecated data
Last I heard, based on DNA, a small group of the horse people did go to Anatolia, through the Balkans, but the rest went North around the Poland/East Prussia area, where they raped a little, and then the rape babies spread out from there.
Turns out the furious Australian mustach guy was slightly right on a few things in an ocean of his bullshit.
Bruh they even reached central Africa, Chad the country has quite a big Founding of Steppe nomads thanks to that.
>Australian
Who the frick?
It’s a common misconception, but he was actually not German.
We know precious little of how battles were fought in the Late Bronze Age. Homer certainly depicted Achaean and Trojan heroes taunting eachother and engaging in duels and small skirmishes, but trying to glean any real strategy from whatever garbled memories the Greeks of the 700's BC had of the LBA seems a fool's errand.
There are some clearly Mycenaean things to be found in the poems, most of them items like boar's tusk helmets and Ajax's tower shield, which were unknown in Homer's own time. The society of Homer's Achaeans more resembled the Dark-Age Greeks of his own time, not that of Mycenaean Greeks. The depictions of combat in the poems probably also reflect the style of fighting his own generation was familiar with.
Think something like Star Wars. Spaceship combat is something alien to us so they used WWII dogfights as inspiration for its depiction. Something familiar with an exotic veneer.
Roman fanfic. Gotta have epic roots so the Greekoids stop making fun of them.
In Vergilius' Aeneid the Trojan hero Aeneas sets up a new home for his people in Italy. He's also Romulus' and Remus' great-great-[...]-great-grandfather.
>when you watch dovahatty and it ruins your ability to learn about roman history
What happened to that nonce? He used to shill on PrepHole constantly.
he cucked out on doing middle-eastern history, did a few game reviews then just stopped entirely.
I remember when he got meager views first starting out and was shilling everyone hard. I forgot about him and then stumbled on an old video the other day and it had like a million views. I guess the Brazilian gay made some money and got lazy huh
*shilling everywhere
Also people from his discord were accusing him of grooming some teenage boy in there at the time lol and that people openly shared kiddy porn. He didn't deny it on PrepHole and said he wasn't accountable for what people posted there and just say lol to the grooming shit.
You’re missing some steps in between. When Homer was around, the Greeks were in a pre-literary society, so history and myths got passed down through oral tradition. There were probably dozens or hundreds of versions of the story about the sacking of Troy. But Homer’s stood the test of time and was retold until somebody did in fact write it down
It seems hard to believe Homer could remember a song with that many fricking lines but I remember seeing a documentary where a researcher in the early 1900s found Albanians who sang songs that were orally passed down with the comparable length about the battle of Kosovo that had taken place 600 years prior and that the historical and archelogical record supported that it had largely occured as the song said (not counting any dramatic embellishments and characters set within the event which like Achilles etc with Homer were fictional). If they could have songs passed down over 600 years then the theory was Homer could've done it as well with songs passed down over the 400 years that had passed since the sacking of Troy, which each generation adding their own embellishments and twists on the tale. Very interesting stuff.
I don't know about the movie but the Trojan war as presented in the illiad is a consolidated oral retelling of a bronze age (or earlier) "world war" fought around the Mediterranean.
This is why the catalog of ships is an important part.
Perhaps the battle at Troy was a pivotal D-day type event or a battle that ended the war.
Troy was likely a semi independent city state of the Hittite empire.
>Hittite
Does this mean they were brown?
Hittites were Europeans who migrated down into Anatolia. They spoke an Indo-European language and had an Indo-European religion but adopted cuneiform writing.
As to their browness, they probably looked like a eastern European
In the illiad Hector pussies out when he sees Achilles coming in full on murder rape mode and runs, so they end up chasing each other around the city like three times until a god pretends to be Hectors cousin to assist him in fighting Achilles, Hector and Achilles charge at each other, Achilles stabs Hector while the god's like "haha, fooled you!"
Hector was a chivalrous warrior that didn't need to rely on supernatural powers to win fights
frick achilles
Is this the thread
I'd edge you until you cried.
There was no Trojan Wars morons lol it's an allegory
You do know you can pick up a pletota of actual books on the subject like the Homeric poetry compilations, right?
Yeah, I've gotten some good jumping off points here and I like bantz with my info. Thank you.
>Achilleid was going to be a massive epic all about Achilles' life from childhood to his death by Statius
>he writes 1000 lines, covering Achilles childhood and being taught by his Centaur mentor Chiron how to be based and up to preparing to leave for Troy
>Statius fricking dies and it will never be finished
Why even fricking live?
Forgot pic
Did they really just walk around nude all the time or was that an artistic thing?
It was hot and clothes were expensive. If it was socially accepted wouldn't you go bare balls in summer?
clothing can be expensive. The surreal thing for me to learn was the stereotypical bedouin right up to Muhammad joe's time was not your standard 19th-20th century depiction of a bedouin sheikh. rather dude was a half naked guy wearing the izar/ihram wrap (The hajj attire) with dreadlocks.
>lothing can be expensive.
Thats too. even in the beginning of the 20s century clothes could cost several month wages for poorgays. Much more for medieval period. Clothes been patched over and over and looking like made from patches was common thing for poorgays.
Modern perception is skewed by 1 hour wage T-shirts.
>Athletes exercised, trained and competed nude, a practice said to encourage aesthetic appreciation of the male body and as a tribute to the gods. Given that gumnasia were for men only, there was no fear of the sexes being shocked or offended by nudity.
>The name gumnasion derives from the ancient Greek word gumnós meaning ‘unclad’, ‘without armour’, or in modern terms ‘naked’. Gumnós is also the root of the verb gumnazo (γυμνάζω), whose meaning is ‘to train naked’, ‘train in gymnastic exercise’, or more generally ‘to train, to exercise’.
Walked - no.
I like that engraving, it makes my dick feel big
Literal pedo
Artistic license, Greeks loved the human form and depicting it as much as possible, but most Greeks went about their day to day life wearing something.
Hell, in the Odyssey even when Odysseus is disguised as a beggar he's still dressed so even the poorest of poorgays had something to wear.
Tenuous.
Not fully accurate perhaps, but it gets a lot of stuff right, more than most think. Especially given what little hard accounting we have on it.
It's also a fantastic depiction of the emotional side of it. The parts we know aren't realistic, but are how they might have been perceived, ala 300.
Imagine stepping out alone to fight someone you know for an absolute fact that you have zero (0) chance of beating. No amount of mental state or spirit or even luck can change the outcome, and everyone knows it, even God knows it.
I believe Hector thought he was the protagonist and with the Gods favor he could be victorious until he realizes how furious Achilles is. I think he knew he was probably fricked from that point on.
He was the protagonist though. Dude was defending his city against invaders. He just happened to have been screwed by his pussy of a brother and the gods’ frickery when going up against a literal demigod equipped with infinity +1 gear
Achilles is the ultimate bad ass. Hector is a cuck.
Achilles was a homosexual who had his goddess mommy run to Zeus and let the Greeks get killed because Agamemnon cucked him. Hector spent the entire war defending his city and putting a baby into his wife
tl;dr. You’re simping over a b***h
>verification not required
He was not, fricking take it back right now!
literally a better fight than anything choreographed in modern times
Nice theatrical fencing but cant be percepted seriously by HEMA appreciators as fake.
Ive always like that one but Brad Pitt and Hector is objectively better
Brb reinstalling AC Odyssey
You can get Achielles full armor set and it looks bad ass (on Alexios, only trannies play as female characters in RPGs)
We don't actually know all that much about how they would have fought back then because historical records were basically "my cousin once talked to a guy who said he had a vision of how it went"