>Mechanized pushes are stupid and gay.
>Small squad assaults are based and red-pilled.
>Bradleys save lives.
>Ukies are completely winning the artillery war and are leveraging their firepower advantage.
>Russians are adapting. They have app-based C2 comms now, switched from saturation to precision fires, and are catching up on drone warfare.
>Ork-tier 500 meters deep minefields.
>Western training is boomer shit detached from reality.
>Retarded yuro regulations treat drones like private jets so it's impossible to actually train with them.
>The grind goes on into 2024.
Link:
rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/stormbreak-fighting-through-russian-defences-ukraines-2023-offensive
If a download PDF button just fucking disappeared for you, here's a direct link:
https://static.rusi.org/Stormbreak-Special-Report-web-final_0.pdf
>pls adjust reality to my shizo ideas
another classic boomer moment
thanks OP, have a bump while I read
everyone ignore this bait
Almost as bad at samefagging as warriortard
nice falseflag Ranjeesh. RUSI is completely correct in their assessment, more drone detection, more anti-mine, better training with drones and more of everything to achieve TZD
In case you're not bait
>The Royal United Services Institute (RUSI, Rusi) is a defence and security think tank headquartered in London, United Kingdom. It was founded in 1831 by the Duke of Wellington, Sir Arthur Wellesley.[2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_United_Services_Institute
>The Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) is the world’s oldest and the UK’s leading defence and security think tank. Our mission is to inform, influence and enhance public debate to help build a safer and more stable world.
https://www.rusi.org/
You don't have to agree with everything said but stop acting retarded
>Wellesley
he was a cunt, but he saved our bacon
shame he then started behaving like the joint was his
t. Alberto Barbosa
Anons who don't know about think tanks are always funny to me. CSIS? Is that Chinese Shanghai International Subversion???
He can’t help it. Reddit gays can’t keep themselves from openly lusting for cock.
>Russians are adapting
But PrepHole told me that was impossible
Russia has shown some ability to adapt during the war, but this has always been hamstrung by their limited resources, technological limitations, low troop quality, and poor overall leadership. So any improvements they do make are often limited to a few of their remaining professional units and don't trickle down to their mobiks.
>They have app-based C2 comms now
Does this mean they're relying on consumer devices? Like just a fucking Chinese android tablet running a sideloaded version of RusCom-v0.1.6-alpha-prerelease.apk? Is that really what's going on?
The fact that you seem to be impressed by literally the bare minimum shows how bad the situation truly is.
>Conceptually, however, the Russians now appear to have moved on, increasingly relying on military bearer networks but app-based services for encoding and accessing data.
>The result is that a system such as Strelets can provide a 3G connection to multiple devices operating applications that are intuitive for civilian users.[1]
Strelets are basically a big toughbook[2] that now have a 3G module.
My wild guess: Either a hastily cobbled together chat app or a reskin of open source software like matrix and nextcloud.
[1]: Page 19
[2]: https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2021_global_security_army_industry/russia_upgrades_strelets_reconnaissance_system_%E2%80%93_part_1.html
>toughbook
that's the first-gen. current-gen, formerly strelets-M, is the tablet that's meant to come with the tripod and rangefinder. imo RUSI's ever-present discussion of strelets comes more from availability bias than anything else. ratnik is deader than dead, and it's very clear now that at least half of the highest echelons either never even knew about the program or didn't understand it.
>apps
they just fixate on cloning UA's mil apps to prove they have capability x too.
>Western training is boomer shit detached from reality.
As is tradition.
US military thinks fighting durkas makes them hardasses, and then gets BTFO in wargames everytime.
>t. turdie who doesn't understand western war games.
Remember when news came out that Germans do not teach Ukrainian soldiers drone reconnaissance and everyone on PrepHole called it retarded boomershit, but then few morons burst in claiming Germans did everything correct that they should learn to operate without drone and yadayada. We can't have nice things because such morons get promoted in military
most of this board doesnt understand the insane revolution that drones are, and they wont understand it even when the war is over. They think, grenade drop videos are the revolution. They are incapable of thought beyond the tactical level.
>They are incapable of thought beyond the tactical level.
There's a big overlap between these people and the people who think drones are war-winning weapons
Radios and video cameras are nothing new
you dont know what your talking about at all
But drones are in use for ~50 years, you just see them in action for the first time.
Because I was proven right
>3 weeks to train green troops
>3 fucking weeks
>The troops actually in another interview praised the ground reconnaissance training
>Bitching that Germans didn't even know what drones they have available (surprise it's all dependent on random fundraisers) couldn't fit proper UAV training there
>Ve vill spent all zis time teaching you zis secondary skill until you are perfect in it
>All zose more important skills? Oh we run out of time, alzo we have no drone flying permit so no drone training
Yeah, German thinking alright
>Basic infantry training = 1 week
>Reconnaissance with your boots on the ground you will be doing anyway since all Ukrainian assaults rely on small squad advances = 1 week
>Assault training = 1 week
As per interview with 32th.
They already skipped plenty of primary skills and any bullshit about permits is bullshit hiding the actual issue. In addition NATO operators would know how to use and treat military UAV, while Ukraine literally relies on fundraiser which means you get some random Mavic and nobody knows in what quantities they are available.
Additionally: Presumably, the Ukrainians have more experience with the technology that no one else has used so far.
I don't understand why people don't seem to understand this. The whole issue is they're trying to cycle people through as fast as possible. The issue is not having enough time, this whole "training doesn't teach you everything you need" shit is down to the schedule being compressed to less than a month. It's fucking basic infantry training, that's all that was achievable. Are there shortcomings to the curriculum that could be addressed? Yes, but expecting soldiers straight out of a stripped down boot camp program to be combat effective is naive. The assault-only focused training and makes sense given that it's more complex in nature than the defense and the Ukrainians were emphasizing the counteroffensive.
>, while Ukraine literally relies on fundraiser which means you get some random Mavic
yeah and? mavic is fine
>trusting chinese malware
Mavics are fine.
But Wectoid HATO black magic still hasn't caught up to the spells necessary to operate them.
From what I understand Ukraine flashes a hacked firmware on chink drones to prevent them from phoning home.
Those 3 weeks should be made into 9 months, at least.
>Should we train the recruits on core infantry skills or spend the limited time we have teaching them things the Ukrainian Army already does really, really well?
>We can't have nice things because such morons get promoted in military
True for all peace time militaries, especially with all the money scamming going on.
>but then few morons burst in claiming Germans did everything correct that they should learn to operate without drone and yadayada.
To be honest they should probably train on both, overreliance on drone scouting will cause lapses in perimeter security and regular patrolling which means they can sneak up on you. Drones are a very good asset to have, but I don't think 3 weeks of basic training would be well spent teaching that.
You have no idea, literally no concept, not a single clue of how advanced western troops are with drone technology
The problem was that the Germans could not develop a training program that would fit the ukrainian needs and prefered to give them a well rounded infantry course and let them train on their own drones once they are in action
>You have no idea, literally no concept, not a single clue of how advanced western troops are with drone technology
In general, they aren't. Your singular picture of some GSG-9 guy or whatever the fuck he is with a drone is nothing impressive. The fucking NYPD is deploying drones too. It doesn't mean shit.
There is nobody outside of the Ukrainian theater that has deployed drones in the numbers and in the ways that the Ukrainians and now the Russians have. Maybe there are some SF units doing something similar, but that's only at the small scale.
The report makes a very specific complaint that western trainers don't have a way to make their training very relevant to Ukrainians who are dealing with situations where there are literally dozens of drones in the air overhead with some being hostile and some being friendly.
>hurr durr look at this picture of a guy tossing a spotter drone
Okay now show me the one with western troops training to evade grenade and suicide drones.
>Remember when news came out that Germans do not teach Ukrainian soldiers drone reconnaissance and everyone on PrepHole called it retarded boomershit, but then few morons burst in claiming Germans did everything correct
The anti German tourists really ruined European discourse on PrepHole.
>germans do not teach ukrainians drone recon
>everyone on PrepHole called it retarded boomershit
he's conflating two stories about training.
one was a viral clip to the effect that german advice for minefields is to go around them. the other was some uppity dumbass who took it upon himself to surmise that the US has no real combat experience post-ww2 because his basic training was basic and the recon portion involved no electronics.
https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/59176791/#q59183486
the guy itt wants to re-run the argument in that thread, from less than a month ago. and he can't even remember his own hyuk hyuks well enough to keep them straight.
yes tovarisch. Compared to the might dragon and bear that kills entire F-35 fleets from the sky single handedly with their latest uberwaffel
>wargames
Lol, lmao even.
Amazing how you guys think fighting militia in pajamas is a real war.
>Still trying to use wargames as a flex.
Fuck off, Pajeet. You morons never get past the fucking headlines.
>Uses "ready" or "readiness" 13 times in 11 sentences.
The Army needs a style guide.
>style guide
As if some rando knuckle dragging captain could get 3 pages through the thing
Maybe they can pick up some scorned writers and editors soon. What a fucking mess that screenshot is.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding. The point is to heavily emphasis and use military jargon and buzzwords so the author can establish himself as credible in the eyes of his audience by using the codewords that they're looking for. This is the same behavior that results in scientific papers being unreadable for anyone outside their niche, but getting passed through peer review because the few people who're qualified to actually review it notice they're talking the correct codewords which implies they know what they're talking about.
>opens with an anecdote
>outlines specific problems
>establishes author credentials
>states thesis
>quotes supporting statements from authority
>closes by restating thesis
It's not collegiate prose but it gets the job done, and it's plain and basic enough that anyone can read it. I don't see a problem.
Did you actually say "US military thinks they're tough shit for fighting real wars. Try that in wargames and then talk!"??
>Sturmtruppen
This is really just ww1.
No, Sturmtruppen was set in WWII
It started in WW1.
yes, I know the Strumtruppen were invented in WWI, I was being facetious and trying to do a funneh because there is a comic called Sturmtruppen set in WWII that should be PrepHole mandatory reading (if it had been translated to English)
>General asks the assembly:
>"Men, what do you want? Guns, or butter?"
>some private raises their hand and cries "Guns!". General is smiling
>in the mess hall, a private says "You must be stupid" to another (supposedly the one who asked for guns)
>while trying to spread a small gun over a slice of bread
I haven't thought about the Sturmtruppen comics for almost 20 years.... thanks PrepHoleomrade
I am somewhat upset that when I was 10 years old I had no idea what I was reading, it was even translated in my language. Now 23 years later im even more upset that I have lost my copies, maybe they are somewhere in my parents place.
We honestly never left WW1 tactics, the problem is that everyone views WW2 through the lens of YUGE ARMORED PUSHES DEEP INTO ENEMY TERRITORY when in reality both the western and eastern front were a slog, during the Cold War neither the US or USSR faced a real opponent and all the wars they did fight were still slogs, and outside of Desert Storm's seal clubbing there has been no example where blitzkrieg tactics were unconditionally decisive. Tanks are not obsolete, do not try to put those words in my mouth, but the fact is we've been living a lie since 1939 that was told by the British to explain why Poland fell so quickly. The Blitzkrieg was always an illusion. Always.
i feel like WW2 was the perfect sweet spot where tech had advanced enough to make big combined arms pushes using armor, but not quite at the level where ISR and precision fire could do anything about it
Core difference of the WWII is military been hybrid force. Millions of foot slogging infantry with horse carts and little sprinkle of armored and mechansied divisions. That created meat of deep penetration and maneuver warfare. When maneuver force pushes deep to cut footslogers from logistic lines. And foot solggers are vulnerable to that tacrics because they can't keep up the mechansied push.
Today even African countries have Toyota pickups for everyone and there is no inherit advantage in mobility for armored force. And deep maneuver can be answered with all forces attacking flanks and logistics of the force doing deep maneuver.
That is key difference with WWII today car mobility is ubiquitous, people forgot how slow is marching on foot and how much horse carts suck for moving supllies. During WWII car/vehicles mobility was premium.
US pulled out maneuver warfare against Iraq twice in modern setting. But US had insane overmatch in all areas. Russia can't even establish air superiority in Ukraine.
>people forgot how much horse carts suck for moving supllies
they sure did, even here when news came out about Russian army receiving 3000 horses some morons tried to imply that Russian logistics will improve should they replace their modern trucks with horses...
truck
>needs fuel
>breaks down
>cold and mechanical
horse
>eats same food as you
>built-in self-repair
>warm and cuddly
>eats same food as you
Anon you really shouldn't eat hay and grass
oats, apples, and meat are good for both humans and horses
>meat
>horses
hell no
Warhorses need at least a kilo, preferably more of oats in addition to something like 9 kilos of hay if they're carrying shit
>Russian army receiving 3000 horses
if you mean the most recent story, it was two horses named Abzelil and Buyan, with the dudes who brought them trying to contract their way to 10.
Kharkiv was an example of how well the exploitation phase of maneuver still works
>deep maneuver can be answered with all forces attacking flanks and logistics of the force doing deep maneuver
this is not realistic; you're imagining magically rallying and organizing forces that are not prepared and probably in disarray from the initial attack
that's like claiming you can still play chess while getting punched in the face
not to mention that second echelon and follow up attacking forces will be shoring up the flanks during the advance
the issue so far in Ukraine is that it's hard to get a breakthrough, since it needs a *lot* of combined arms training which neither side has the breathing room to build up
You also can't do breakthrough because Russian ls built 500 meter deep minefields everywhere
>Kharkiv was an example of how well the exploitation phase of maneuver still works
against extremely inferior enemy with no defenses and no reserves.
which is what's needed for maneuver warfare to work
the trick is turning your enemy into a force with no defenses and no reserves
then you can use maneuver to roll them up
That's simplifying it.IIRC big part of the offensive was suddenly bringing a lot of M777 into that front while phoning USA for direct intelligence feed to make whatever shells they can provide that much more effective. So the real reason for the breakthrough was that they managed to concentrate their forces before the enemy could react and then ate up the late reinforcements (the so called 3rd army corpse). These are the basic principles of maneuver warfare.
Wrong
Go back and reread the battles you *think* you know, from WW1 to date, but this time pay attention to the time factor
Waste of quads
Look up Active Defense, the battle plan which AirLand Battle replaced. As late as the early 70s the US Army was wrestling with the problem that even if they saw the T-72 horde coming, they couldn't kill enough of it to stop it.
>Go back and reread the battles you *think* you know, from WW1 to date, but this time pay attention to the time factor
No u.
Western front in particular was a huge slog, and nobody talks about it because they want it to seem glorious. But the grim reality was stuff like Monte Cassino and Caen.
>Korean War
Slog from beginning to end.
>Vietnam War
Slog.
>Soviet Afghan invasion
Slog.
Time period is fucking irrelevant.
>Time period
Not era; how many days it took to plan, prepare and carry out operational manoeuvres
Give a single example. Just one.
Operation Corporate.
Argentine invasion, 2 April.
Black Buck, 1 May.
San Carlos, 22 May.
Ceasefire and surrender, 14 June.
It took the British 1 month to gather its forces.
22 days to contest and obtain naval and air superiority, and land troops.
23 days to fight 3 separate battles, defeat the Argentinian ground forces, besiege the capital and negotiate a surrender.
That's FAST.
Sturmtruppen were literally a failure, the one time they were used it was a massive disaster for the German army. The limited success they had was more down to massive artillery fires and poison gas than anything else.
their purpose was to increase animosity between the lines
They were used constantly throughout the war you fucking tourist.
Really laughable. Stormtroopers were intended to find weakpoints that later advances could exploit. You're basically trying to claim that infiltration assault tactics are a failure.
>what is the 12th battle of Isonzo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caporetto
Caporetto, while a great victory in an isolated sense, didn't pave the way for any new victories or strategic accomplishments down the road. The Austro-Hungarians tried to use German infiltration tactics at the Second Battle of the Piave, and you know how well that went. Overall, Italian shock troops were more consequential on the Italian front than German or Austro-Hungarian shock troops.
You could even argue that the defeat at Caporetto, causing Cadorna to be replaced with Diaz and the implementation of new tactics by the Italians, was a net benefit for the Italian war effort.
That's because both Germany and Austro-Hungary were exhausted and the population was starving. Austria-Hungary was essentially already dissolving. Italians also had to be reinforced by the French and the British.
It has very little to do with the battlefield success or failure of stormtroopers which were, evidently, very successful as they managed to advance a hundreds kilometers into Italy which is something unheard of on the western front since 1914 and something everyone else failed to do in the preceding 11 battles of the Isonzo.
Read Rommels book, iirc "Infantry attacks" in English, he served at the Isonzo, it will give you some insight.
>Retarded yuro regulations treat drones like private jets so it's impossible to actually train with them.
what a pseudo problem. Military training grounds are restricted airspace anyway and half the garbage brussels pumps out goes ignored anyway. There is no practical reason not to fly the drones anyway as there really is nothing anybody can do about it
not a problem, getting A1/A3 certificate is like 30mins work in Poland
>Switching to precision fires
Are you sure they're not just running out of ammo lmao
That's the (assumed) cause, yes. They are not doing it out of boredom or because they suddenly found the manual of the targeting slide rule.
>war of artillery and many small infantry units
This gay meta only came about because aircraft larger than drones were b&
This gay meta came about because one side is retarded and the other one is poorer than like a third of african countries.
Great time to learn how to use a gun innawoods before we all get to enjoy the experience tbqh. Preparation before getting into the shit is great.
I totally agree with you anon, Germans are willingly or unwillingly saboteurs, also the most retarded logistical system in the entire nato, the most useless bureaucratic system that can be described as people avoiding responsibility at all cost(basically getting paid for that), you need to wait God knows how much time to receive equipment from German storage, enough for said equipment to get covered in rust and be completely unusable, and yet people still believe they are best meanwhile realistically their entire country can get overrun with Luxembourgish logistical unit
"German efficiency" is a myth (though the German public service is one of the most efficient in the world). Germany is Process Nation. It's all about Process. Everything is Process.
Germany is also extremely old and run by boomers. The legislature is the first in almost two decades that a significant number of younger people entered parliament, and you can see that effect in the foreign ministry. The boomer got the chancellery. Anglo media cannot at all conceive of the political culture of a country where public debate is as extensive as in Germany either. Political culture is all about talking things to fucking death until a consensus is reached and executed upon because that's part of the Process. That's great if you are a foreign news service, because you can write an endless stream of headlines about every single public statement of every single official or not-official in the country opining on things.
desu, that is by design
After WWII, Germans were allowed to continue to exist because France/Britain thought it would be marginally more funny to see them crushed as a speedbump by Soviet tanks than to just let them starve to death.
So they were allowed to "rebuild", including their armed forces, but the goal was always to have them play meatshield against the Russians to buy the Americans time to cross the Atlantic. Definitely not to actually have a competent/dangerous army (again).
Cope
Germoids wanted East Germany back and knew the only way was to join NATO and outlast the USSR somehow
The kicker is that the instant they got it back they stopped pretending to give a shit about anything other than their own selfish arschlochs
>butthurt polish tourist agrees with the banned Russian bot baiting
This will not lead to introspection and reflection.
I don't really buy the whole "training armies can't use drones because they're heavily regulated~" business. armies have practice ranges with restricted airspace where they can do whatever they want, for fuck's sake. sounds like cope.
You are mistaken and it is a very, very real issue. I first heard about it almost two months ago, probably in an episode of War on the Rocks. The EU is fucking retarded.
When I was in the German army we weren’t even allowed to dig fox holes on our local manoeuvre grounds because of environmental regulations. So this is issue seam very plausible to me.
>armies have practice ranges with restricted airspace
And that's a problem when you're trying to fly a consumer-grade Chink drone over it
It’s bullshit made up by a bunch of neverserveds
I've been reading Ukrainian reports that are like "NATO doesn't know how to trench warfare"
"NATO doesn't know how to Drone warfafe"
"NATO says an officer has to be in the trench when we found it's better for the Officer to sit in the tent looking at all the drone photos so he can lead the front like he's playing IRL Command and Conquer"
Where? Not trying to start shit, that sounds pretty interesting.
https://nitter.cz/DefMon3/status/1699196370471596425#m
Where's the lie?
See
>It is much more efficient when the company commander has his own command and control room with drone streams coming in. He can make calm and weighed decisions looking at the battlefield instead of listening to what is happening, and it is no longer a game of telephone.”
Means in the future commanders are going to need to have little wrist computers feeding them drone feeds like an EVA unit.
You are brown. Wash yourself. It probably wont help much for the color, but at least you will stink a little less.
sorry you talked bad about tanks so every tabletop autist in PrepHole is gonna try and discredit your post
>Ukies are completely winning the artillery war and are leveraging their firepower advantage.
What the fuck are these clowns on?
reality?
I feel sorry for you.
That's no longer summer of '22, dawg.
lol while ziggers were busy trying to memory hole every embarrassment they were just ignoring the supply issue that has been mounting for 12 months now. Russia is fucked and is begging NK currently for shells.
>rusi
not reading after their previous releases that were completely divorced from reality implying the west would nuke russia
YOU DID NOT CHECK because you are a moron. You assumed because you're stupid. There is no excuse for not verifying such things before posting, but there are streets to shit in and your time is short.
If PrepHole's previous takes on their papers are anything to go by, at least 90% of this thread will be misunderstandings by morons who didn't read the paper or have ESL comprehension
So thanks for the PDF but fuck the thread
I saw the western training thing and immediately posted an excerpt from the article. Shit you not people nowadays oversimplify shit they just don't understand either out of malice or abject stupidity
>malice or abject stupidity
Bit of both
Cracking good read though this PDF. Usually we'd only read stuff like this long after the war is over and people have had time to write their memoirs.
I should actually take a look into that then
You should
Exciting stuff
>Western training is boomer shit detached from reality.
"Training of staff would significantly assist Ukrainian forces. This will only be helpful, however, if training is built around the tools and structure that Ukraine employs, rather than teaching NATO methods that are designed for differently configured forces. There is also a critical requirement to refine collective training provided to Ukrainian units outside Ukraine so that Ukrainian units can train in a manner closer to how they fight. This requires regulatory adjustment to allow for the combination of tools that are highly restricted on many European training areas."
why are euros so fucking cucked? my god
Why does this need to be said 1.5 years into a war. How many fucking think tanks do we have in the west of dipshits doing nothing useful.
Thinking is hard, convincing people your thoughts are the right ones before lessons have been learned the hard way is basically impossible. Be thankful it's getting done at all.
>3 weeks training
That's a little short. I assume those 3 weeks is the most intense, quality, no-bullshit training you can probably ever get anywhere but surely there's better results to be gotten by extending training for even one more week.
Op Interflex is a 5 week course according to the British Army
>the rusi talk where the trainers break it down is now loginwalled on the rusi events page
how tedious. attaching their summary here. i've had people try to insist to me, even after being presented with this info, that "the training is actually longer bro that's a russian myth bro". not overly useful to have the event link (soft) 404'd on top of that. there was also a mandatory building evacuation that interrupted the whole thing – host had a fire alarm go off – so it was a shambolic event.
https://rusi.org/events/open-to-all/british-armys-contribution-training-ukrainian-forces
I think this short training rotation made sense when Ukraine's situation looked dire and they just needed people who could actually hold guns right. Now it's apparent Ukraine's position is secured, I think they need to swap back to more in-depth training, adjusted for the situation.
it only goes to the "Events" page now
Thank you for the infographic
I myself did not know this much, all I read was the British Army's own brief explainer on Interflex which stated that it is 5 weeks long
It makes sense that officer ranks need a lot more training time
thankfully it looks like the multistream links are still up. the vimeo streams seem to be the highest quality with captions.
https://vimeo.com/777316675
on the rusi.org site proper, the whole events page has been restructured and everything old is currently wiped out. hopefully they realize that "past events" is empty and they repopulate it.
I have seen 3 weeks used in regards to the training in Germany and 5 in regards to UK so both are probably correct (and hella short).
Fuck that was a good read. There are compatibility issues with NATO training doctrine and AFU operational needs, although I wonder if NATO trainers are using this amazing opportunity for cross-pollination of ideas and experience, and looking at adapting how the West trains and fights.
Also
>inaccurately marked mass minefields in a country you invade
>AND planning to force AFU withdrawals by knocking out critical civilian infrastructure during winter
TOTAL zigger death couldn't come soon enough
Innovation moves really fucking fast in a war, the war has outpaced western doctrine. As well all western doctrine relies heavily on air power.
>outpaced
not having enough planes and having to figure out how to make do is not outpacing
I like RUSI. They usually don't pull punches if the West is doing shit wrong. But what can we do? How can you improve the offensive when Russia resorts to minefields and artillery to end them or make them costly? Despite the retard vatniks and 4chantards, western MBTs are not invincible and there is a limited amount of them. If Ukraine is winning the artillery war now, time to down double on that and supply them with MORE stuff. Why hasn't the USA handed over ATACAMS yet? Germany says that is the block on them sending the TAURUS (granted they barely have any TAURUS available, but even 50 would be useful). The rest of Europe should start training on Eurofighter Typhoons now as well.
It's grim this war is going to last decades at this rate.
For starters the western retards saying that the Ukrainians fucked up the offensive and should be taking territory faster can shut the fuck up. That would be a big help.
Next thing would be to stop pussyfooting around and start giving the Ukrainians as many long range precision weapons as possible so they can fistfuck the Russian supply lines even harder, and yes, strike targets inside Russia on a regular basis.
Oh and rewind time and just give them F-16s six months ago.
>just give them F-16s
That's really the ticket
>HURR DURR MIC
More money is made from peace than war, retard
Get tested so at least people around you would know not to take your gobshite seriously
Concern troll exposed
No, F-16s alone aren't enough. Russian SAM coverage is not a joke (unless you have advanced stealth aircraft) so the Ukrainians need an arsenal of longer range precision munitions and shitloads of HARMs to go along with the F-16s. That way they can locate and annihilate as many SAMs as possible before using their new aircraft to their full potential.
F-16s are for taking control of the air, which is more deadly than SAM coverage.
That's just not possible with the current SAM saturation. The Russians are conducting the vast majority of their cruise missile strikes by lobbing air launched missiles from inside their own SAM umbrella and then quickly returning to the ground. If either side carries out any attack runs in hostile air, they do so by flying below the radar.
If we want to see TZD the Ukrainians need to have the capabilities to knock out Russian SAMs so then they can attack targets on the frontline or beyond. This will also allow them to screen advances by sending F-16s into hostile territory to attack Russian arty and armor while Ukrainian infantry clears mines and eliminates hostile elements holding entrenched positions.
Oh and I want to see some Sukhois get blown out of the sky by F-16s in Ukrainian livery.
>No, F-16s alone aren't enough. Russian SAM coverage is not a joke
Are you sure? We've seen at last 2 recent Bayraktar videos, which means the russian air defense isn't nearly as dense anymore.
Yeah it's not as dense in some areas, but Bayraktars are highly expendable so they're willing to risk them in potentially dicey operations like that since they can be replaced + nobody important dies if they get shot down.
In order to facilitate more extensive aerial operations the SAM network has to be degraded to the point that the Russians are forced to pull most of them back within their own borders out of fear of direct assaults on the motherland. That's when Ukrainian air power will really shine.
Honestly I shill for mark 77-79s and blu 95-96 to be sent since they are low tech and cheap can be slapped to JDAM kits are are made to clean trenches and defenses.
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/758452/catfae-test-support
Apprently the marines made an assualt captapult to throw those bombs becuase they didnt have to jets to drop them.
It will last for years for literally one reason, that being Western MIC. The middle east dried up. Counter-insurgency stuff was no longer profitable. China was about to be the next big thing, letting them get billion dollar contracts to refit military forces for a "near"" peer conflict.
But then Russia went full retard- which was great because this doesn't disrupt the global economy as much as a war with China will, but the MIC still gets big contracts. They're gonna milk this for as long as they can.
Anon, how is the MIC profiting big time from distributing hand me downs that were on their way to the scrapyard?
While it's true that a lot of this stuff isn't something we're paying for right away, not all of it is spares and not all of it is old. Many smaller countries are hedging that they can do more now by giving than they can later by hoarding. A lot of what gets sent is sent with the understanding that it will be replaced with something newer.. Some things like the American manpads weren't being made at all, and have had to have production completely restarted IIRC. And there's Poland. And there's shells. And of course it costs money to ship it all over there too. Better now than in 2027 though.
They are, they just aren't pushing their luck. But they've been infiltrating the border for a while now.
National procurement is mostly unaffected by the decision to donate old stuff to Ukraine. The decision is driven by the understanding that not throwing money at ones military leaves one vulnerable to aggressors like Russia.
It might not be about a real threat, most countries especially in Europe are rather safe from that, but it's not a decision based on pure rationality. Russia really rustled some jimmies.
That is also a nice excuse to buy new toys and look good towards ones own population - most "pacifist" parties either reversed their stance, shut up or lost voter approval.
>flood damage cleanup companies profited from hurricanes, they caused hurricanes! don't buy flood insurance, you're falling into the trap of the FIC!
>construction companies profited from earthquakes, they caused earthquakes! don't buy home insurance, you're falling into the trap of the CIC!
That's bait
The MIC will *always* profit from increased defence budgets, investment and expenditure on war. Hence why this is rhetoric; it's adopting a position that is on the face of it unassailable as well as retarded. The real logical disjoint is to claim that they are deliberately instigating war in order to profit.
The reason is that this ascribes much too much power to the MIC, which is frankly dwarfed many times over by the CIC. For every one military corporation supposedly pulling strings to initiate a war, there are dozens of civilian corporations pulling strings to PREVENT war, because peace is better for their profit margins.
Also, even if this "logic" were to be assumed, then it stands to reason that either Almaz-Antey and Uralvagonzavod instigated the war, or Putin is in the pay of the American MIC. But the people who come up with this retarded argument don't follow their own "logic" to its natural conclusions... I wonder why...
They're still way less biased than any horseshit coming out of anyone even vaguely aligned with the fucking Russians.
>"hmmm... our gear is getting a bit old and won't last too long"
>"how about I just send it to kill moskals and get me some upgrades now?"
granted most countries don't go on a full retard spending spree (like pooland) but you can't seriously argue that NAFO sending a whole bunch of shit to Ukraine -- in a land war in europe that all but resurrected NAFO -- has no impact on MIC's business.
The war absolutely has an impact on the amount of money that gets thrown towards arms manufacturers. But the cause for that is in my opinion not the support for Ukraine but the war as such.
You know full well that's not true
Because all that stuff is now getting replaced by new builds
On top of that, artillery shell and barrel production is going WAY up to both meet Ukraine's needs and refill then expand the stockpiles of everyone who has donated to Ukraine
Attack Belgorod, it's quite literally undefended.
What if the ukraine had gone balls deep into Belgorod and wheeled to hit Russian lines in Lugansk from the rear instead of running face first into a defensive line in the south like the pack of drunken slavic pigpeople they are?
Nobody knows, but it would have been bold as fuck. It would hit all the principles of the offense, surprise, concentration, tempo and audacity. Even if it failed, it would be studied for many decades to come.
RUSI is not an unbiased 3rd-party analysis. Their job is to support their aligned interests (NATO, allies and the UK) with meaningful and useful advice and understanding of the enemy. They’ll always spin in favor of optimism for their side. That’s common sense and not debatable.
>That’s common sense and not debatable
I don't really think anyone was arguing that RUSI is unbiased. People do like it because they usually provide a level-headed analysis. I sense you are brown.
>Their job is to support their aligned interests (NATO, allies and the UK) with meaningful and useful advice and understanding of the enemy. They’ll always spin in favor of optimism for their side.
i was shit on and brigaded multiple times on here when i dared to post the last RUSI report that painted a much different picture about ukraine, especially in regards to the effectiveness of their SAM systems and the ineffectiveness of HARMs against them
i guess RUSIs reliability on PrepHole depends entirely on if they make ukraine look good or not
>brigaded
fuck off redditmoron
>precision
with their completely worn-through barrels, or with the rusted soviet trash replacing them? Since they can't make more, kek
Or perhaps we're talking about the whopping three missiles left in the russian inventory?
The report claims that Surovikin was removed because his defensive strategy was at odds with the Kremlin’s aggression. You know what’s strange? How NO ONE, not even a respected military think tank like RUSI bother discusses Ukrainian generals and leadership figures. It’s ALWAYS a Russian figure that gets discussion. Why is that? It sort of feels like the Russians have agency and impact while the Ukrainians are NPCs who act and react automatically with no one responsible for it. I wonder why that is? A consequence of strong information control by Ukraine leaving the inner workings a black box?
because the russian military is politicised, the ukrainian one isn't
are you fucking high? both militaries are extremely politicized
The most retarded take possible.
>ignoring Big Potato himself
Zaluzhny is a celebrity, anon
I think its just that russia will capitalise on observed weakness observations on the uki front, and I assume RUSI doesn't want to enable that
Sure RUSI isn’t impartial but still NO ONE talks about Ukrainian generals or their various strategies and impact on the war. Meanwhile we always hear about Russians.
How many Russian Generals are thrown around? Besides the one in the special needs daycare for grownups in Moscow none?
Except when they intercepted some kind of Ukrainian projectile, but that is more the end of their influence on the war.
No one owes you shit, moron
There was a lot of talk about General Potato for doing a good job at leading a defensive operation and the initial gestures of goodwill aggression. At this point, there's nothing really to judge on since we're still in the middle of the operation and a lot of the details are still hidden from public consumption. Meanwhile, Russia's constant leadership changes was correlated with things like Armagedon's missile tantrums which were collectively laughed at because WWII showed casual terror bombing is one of the dumbest ideas even if they weren't wasting important missiles doing so.
Read moron read
>It sort of feels like the Russians have agency and impact while the Ukrainians are NPCs who act and react automatically with no one responsible for it.
It may also be because russian command is abysmally retarded by comparison while Ukrainian officers do what they are supposed to do most of the time.
>A consequence of strong information control by Ukraine leaving the inner workings a black box?
Yes. Also, Ukraine specifically asks not to discuss their movements, so even the likes of ISW only report on movements that the Ukrainian government itself announces or what Russian milbloggers report on
Remind me again what happened to Russian celebrity generals?
>It’s ALWAYS a Russian figure that gets discussion. Why is that? It sort of feels like the Russians have agency and impact while the Ukrainians are NPCs who act and react automatically with no one responsible for it.
Playing up your leaders with retarded strongman hype is exactly the sort of Marvel-tier bullshit vatniks accuse everyone else of, and it adds unnecessary embarrassment if they end up falling flat, especially if it's for reasons they couldn't control. they've been doing this the entire war (Remember pic related? Yeah, me either), so the real question you should ask is why they haven't learned to stop by now?
>Pic related
Russia is the main character of this war.Ukraine is just the turf.
when your case study is scoped to an initial assault in an offensive targeting the Surovikin Line, you put the answer to the question "What is the Surovikin Line, and why is it Surovikin's?" in the executive summary.
ukraine's own extensive fortifications north of the line of contact, though marked on decent maps, are superfluous for the current discussion because russia lacks the offensive potential to reach them.
are completely winning the artillery war and are leveraging their firepower advantage.
how did this happen? is it because russia can't hit shit despite using infinite shells?
>is it because russia can't hit shit despite using infinite shells?
In part but Ukraine switched to "bite and hold" tactics where they make smaller offensives to take positions and then force the Russians to go on the offensive to retake them.
This baited artillery to come forward, counter-battery radar and the accuracy of Western guns did the rest.
Then at some point they just started dropping the HIMARS tungsten rain directly on the artillery batteries and some Grads.
>Small squad assaults
Basically infiltration tactics from the great war; kinda insane how closely this current war mimic it. The entente way was technological and industrial superiority by using combined arms and tanks, but modern tech made it harder to pass the minimal threshold to be able to do that mostly due to proliferation of ATGM and guided artillery(even if mines is the main factor here). Then again maybe this will change once the Ukrainians get western airplanes as it would once more put combined arms on the table for one last try.
Russia will ultimately “win”. The Afghanistan can’t generate either the attrition or the rapid collapse through maneuver to overcome the Russians’ subhuman willingness to through men and artillery into a meat grinder, and neither does the Afghanistan have the manpower to overcome Russia in that game
>and neither does the Afghanistan have the manpower to overcome Russia in that game
Afghanistan had huge amounts of young men and insane birthrates though
>Afghanistan had huge amounts of young men
12 million pop total
If that was the case, Putin wouldn't be begin NK for shells. All this time, Ukraine has bombed all their ammo depots and targeted their arty pieces and mobile vehicles over and over again. Your fantasies won't make Russia to stop retreating though
>Mechanized pushes are stupid and gay.
yes but as per rusi regular sub room temp iq they fail to understand that 90% of the countries out there are mountainous
>Small squad assaults are based and red-pilled.
yes if you have ukraine or russia level of meat to throw
>Bradleys save lives.
how many bradleys they have lost so far?
>Ukies are completely winning the artillery war
interesting if they are winning why they arent spamming the whole world that they are the best of the best?
>They have app-based C2 comms now
>now
we saw c2 tablets since november
>Retarded yuro regulations treat drones like private jets
thank germany for this the only rare W they did
>sub room temp iq
said the moron who didn't read the report
Why would anyone take propaganda pieces seriously? Literally like RT
>Ackshually I wasn't even taking it seriously, I was only pretending to be retarded
No, no. Really, you taking this "battle report" seriously? From the people who change narratives and lie 24/7.
But anon, this article wasn't written by russians.
RUSI is much more credible than Russia, my vranyo-spinning vatnig
i did
>mechanized pushes in mountains are even harder, what's the point of mentioning mountains?
did you bother READING what i said afterwards?
plain fields countries are rare in fact there are only 30 of them around the world
> somehow less "meat" losses?
but we do not know if there were any actual meat losses on them there were never videos or pictures for obvious reasons
>what this has to do with a point
because its not the wunderwaffen they are trying to make it be
>pic related
>defmon
come on dude get real have you being on his discord? if not get it and just grab popcorn you will lose any sort of """respect""" for him
what russia has to do with anything here? we said rusi is shit because they are what is it with you trying to slap russia everywhere you dont like just so you can derail every thread?
the ONLY reason they are still fighting is because of intelligence
no amount of training has come to fruitition really and it shows
if you take away the real time intelligence then they gonna collapse faster than the austrohungarian empire
>we said rusi is shit because they are!!
>it - it just is okay!!
>come on dude get real have you being on his discord? if not get it and just grab popcorn you will lose any sort of """respect""" for him
What it has to do with defmon? Map is made based on generous donation of videos by Russian military of locations controlled by Ukrainian infantry
no his maps are based on what ukranians translate on his discord based on what ukraine says
we kept telling him that robotyne isnt free yet because russia is launching almost every day counter offensives it took him almost 2 weeks to write something about it claiming it was all fake and shit
>lets take the word of people that helped isis grow
>surely this is a legit course of action
>no his maps are based on what ukranians translate on his discord based on what ukraine says
What do you mean no, Russians released video of Ukrainian infantry controlling trench west of Verbove, he updated the map to Ukrainians controlling trench west of Verbove
>we kept telling him that robotyne isnt free yet because russia is launching almost every day counter offensives
You seem to not understand what words mean, Robotyne is "free" because Ukrainian forces control all of it, number of dead Russians outside the village pilling up has no bearing on if Robotyne is free or not, if they would ever manage to enter it, that would be different case, however such thing has not happened as of yet so doesn't matter
>people that helped isis grow
>RUSI
what are you smoking, I'd like some
then again it's probably krokodil, I'll pass on that
>Leaving no doubt about ones mental retardation, the post.
>yes but as per rusi regular sub room temp iq they fail to understand that 90% of the countries out there are mountainous
mechanized pushes in mountains are even harder, what's the point of mentioning mountains?
>yes if you have ukraine or russia level of meat to throw
because when sardine can burns with 11 people inside it somehow less "meat" losses?
>how many bradleys they have lost so far?
what this has to do with a point
>interesting if they are winning why they arent spamming the whole world that they are the best of the best?
pic related
I like how setting up trade deals is "begging" but Ukraine literally begging NATO for arms is never called such. Do you people ever look in the mirror? The irony level is spooky.
So we've established that Russia is Ukraine-tier in not having enough weapons and having to beg, like Ukraine, for weapons?
Okay gotcha
Their statement that Ukrainians should receive training which closer matches to way Ukraine fights is just sucking up to Ukrainians imo. The way Ukrainians fight is the REASON they need NATO training.
>The way Ukrainians fight is the REASON they need NATO training.
Eh, NATO doctrine is heavily based around air power and fire superiority. While I'm sure there are some plans made for if the USAF can't fly for some reason or another, NATO invests trillions into air power for a very good reason and doesn't develop doctrine and tech around the concept that they're never gonna be able to fly anything bigger then a quad copter and occasional UCAV. While the general infantry skills are still applicable, I can see leadership and tactical courses needing to be completely thrown out and rewrote since it's just a way of fighting that NATO has evolved beyond.
read report before commenting
>NATO training
You don't need training to chill in Burger King on the other side of the world while your air force bombs your enemy and 3 adjacent countries just to be sure to the stone age.
Yeah, there's a lot of bullshit in the part about Western training. They're bitching that they should skip teaching the basics and go straight to combined arms because Ukraine can just teach the basics later. Seriously wtf, in the first place it's because Ukraine can't handle training everybody that the training courses are compressed to a tiny timeframe to train as many soldiers as possible. They should be recommending western training trains an entire battalion for months to ensure a high level of competence in a single big cohesive unit, like everybody was expecting to happen, instead of just being an outsourced boot camp. The issue isn't that they're being trained wrong, it's that the time frame for training is too low. It's not like as if training is some sort of mystical art that only Western nations can impart onto the lowly masses.
You are not e very strong reader, are you?
>Mechanized pushes are stupid and gay.
>Small squad assaults are based and red-pilled.
This is basically what Wagner had figured out around Bahmut, while RuAF were getting smeared on the ground near Vuhledar
lol
lmao even
Wagner meatwaves were almost entirely unsupported, which is why
* it took them a year and they needed help from VDV in the end
* they killed almost the entire russian prison population while doing it
* they still didn't take all of it
"Lol, lmao" what? Yes, they were still awful, but it is what Ukrainians were the most vocal about. And now Ukrainians have also switched to these small squad assault tactics, because they're forced to by the conditions - technical superiority of an entrenched enemy and lack of air support.
The point is that ukrainian tactics is small squad assault supported by artillery and armor, and focused on conserving manpower.
Wagner assaults were unsupported zerg rushes. Those are not remotely the same.
>And now Ukrainians have also switched to these small squad assault tactics
1. Ukrainians didn't switch to "these" tactics, Ukraine had this small unit tactics since start of the war
2. Wagner small squad assault tactics are completely different from Ukrainian tactics, Wagner didn't use any transport vehicles to get infantry to enemy trench, they used waves of infantry until one finally overwhelmed the defenses
NTA, but I think "refined' would be a better word choice than "switched". It's important to remember Ukraine has been fighting since 2014, and throughout that pre-invasion period they were basically just in a stalemate. It's only now that they're managing to take territory back, although not the areas conquered in 2014 (yet).
Ukraine has been fighting in 2014, sure, but in the beginning of 2015, Minsk 2 was signed and after that positional slog has begun, which is representative of what's still happening in Maryinka/Avdiivka, but nowhere else.
>Ukrainians have also switched to these small squad assault tactics
>t. I didn't read the report, but I must REEE
>Wagner meatwaves were almost entirely unsupported
One small problem, the very same RUSI reported that what was called "Wagner meatwaves" in the media was actually recon groups of 2-5 soldiers who scouted out Ukrainian positions to direct artillery and heavy weaponry support.
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/meatgrinder-russian-tactics-second-year-its-invasion-ukraine
>Although these have been described colloquially as ‘human wave attacks’, they no longer involve a dense concentration of infantry conducting an assault in a single mass
>a disposable fire team of two to five personnel is sent from a forming-up position in the Russian front line and advances to contact
>The term ‘human wave attacks’ is certainly misleading for probes by successive small assault teams against enemy defences.
>the continuous conduct of this activity, across all axes, is a form of reconnaissance that allows the Russian forces to do two things. First, they find points of weakness in the Ukrainian defences where these troops make surprising amounts of progress or face very limited fire. These are then prioritised for deliberate assault. Alternatively, where the defence is strong, the revelation of Ukrainian firing positions allows specialised troops to begin targeting them.
ITT:
Anons discussing a report they didn't read on a topic they don't understand.
western training actually assumes theres some kind of effective air support
No it doesn’t and that’s not the issue here. The issues are time constraints, legal complications and a dramatic lack of qualified staff officers in the UAF. Especially the officer training part is a major challenge, given how long it takes to train O3+. That problem is further complicated by the fact that ukrainian staffs work differently than NATO staffs so you cannot just use a NATO training template and and condense it.
training is boomer shit detached from reality.
Hopefully they snap out of it and actually start to ask the uke what they are actually encountering on the field
They won't. You're dealing with Pentagon and whatever the Eurotrash equivilent goons who think that only super expensive drones are relevant, and that Ukraine is playing with cheap cope-drones. It's like claiming that only expensive artillery shells are any good and that infantry squads shouldn't be given grenades.
>They won't.
I doubt that, but it needs time
are these RUSI people full of vatmorons?
tldr holhol > russia > nato
>tldr
Correct, you didn't read the paper.
the most notable thing about this report, and others i've read recently (restricted distribution), has been the utter lack of fucking calls to integrate better use of weather & geophysical services.
even the case study here, which starts with questions about whether the ground is dry enough for a mechanised push, with the judgment call turning out to be in error, doesn't result in the authors adding the simplest, easiest of conclusions: greater imposition of rigour in brigade-level communication with meteorologists and others who can advise.
other thonkerinos:
>anti-tank guided weapons (ATGW)
no matter how many times they use it this way, i'm still gonna say "aaahh hahaha you friggin ponces"
>Taking Novodarivka and Rivnopil
worth noting that they omit a fair amount of detail about the push/pull of this engagement, as well as the involvement of forces not trained or equipped by NATO forces. in particular, for the respective locales:
110 TDF (A7038)
31 OMBR (A4773)
I’m NOT going to pretend the Ukies don’t need real training. We’ve all seen the videos of clown-tier BS out of them, hardly any better than the average mobik. This is a horrendous waste of fighting potential. They NEED serious real training, not a rapid boot camp. They need to be able act as a cohesive larger unit, not blunder around in small units clearly not knowing wtf is going on. If they could achieve that they’d walk all over the Russians. These static defensive positions only seem like the Great Wall because Ukies can’t effectively do large-scale operations. It’s all down to training — both the infantryman and the staff officers. You DON’T *need* air superiority to breach a minefield but you DO need coordination and strong leadership. Puttering through a minefield with a plow and a few tanks following it is begging for disaster.
I love RUSI simply because they give a fair and realistic analysis of Russia which is generally hard to get in western sources. Its either laughing at general Russian incompetence or dooming over inevitable russian victory
the interesting stuf
i am now of demoralize and support of Putin
thank op i cum on cat now she hiss at penis