Seriously while it was expected for SIG to win, this program was an absolute failure in every way. For one Textron should have won hands down since they are the only one that was even in the ballpark of advancing firearms design. GD's rifle was doomed to fail and anyone who says otherwise is a bullpupfag who should quite frankly fuck off.
The Textron rifle needed work but the MG was the evolution of the LSAT which already proved to be a good system and a rifle to go with it would be perfect. Then you have the fact it's actually cutting down on weight and having a widespread use of a semi-new design might actually cause people to start making new guns instead of another AR but this time in totally not 270 winchester.
The GD rifle is a joke and polymer cases are an abomination that will hopefully never see the light of day
SIG's rifle is the most lazy bottom of the barrel design being just a fucking AR10 but guess what it "definitely" won't blow it self up. Then you got .277 fury which is extremely overpressured for next to no gain since it give .308 preformance with .308 recoil but it has a shit ton more stress on the gun itself and all that so they can cut down the barrel by 2 inches and then put a 6 inch suppressor there. Absolute joke of a gun and while I'm not surprised it was adopted it just proves that this program was a failure and should have been canceled, but I guess the Army had to save face since the last 20 programs were all canceled.
tl;dr fuck siggers fuck bullpup fags the LSAT should have won.
That forward impingement mechanism was retarded, should've gone with their previous semibullpup design that pushed the round backwards.
This. I hope Textron goes back and revises the design somehow.
Textron cope pseudo telescoping round is heavier than TV plastic and more important has shit accuracy and doesn't work with GP 6.8 EPR bullet.
GD/TV is very promising but GD shoot themselves with the foot with their low effort 20rds clip RPK.
To be fair, TV basically told the army they could rechamber any MG or LMG that fits 7.62 to run 6.8 if they weren't happy with the gun they submitted. They even showcased quick change barrel swaps on the M240 to swap between 7.62 and 6.8 within a few seconds.
Pretty sure if the army wanted they even could've just picked the true velocity bullpup and ammo, then selected the SIG LMG and rework the barrel length for the TV 6.8 loading.
>To be fair, TV basically told the army they could rechamber any MG or LMG that fits 7.62 to run 6.8 if they weren't happy with the gun they submitted.
That was desperate convulsions to stay afloat after they were called out with their lol RPK. They. Should've make real MG from the beginning, or at least make 50rds drum for their RPK.
But yeah best choice was TV ammo, GD rifle and call for the second take on MG with TV ammo been new requirement. Aiming for SIG MG rechambred in 6.8TV.
Then they should've made those program requirement and the PPON should've stated the LMG needed a large magazine depth.
The PPON not only said the LMG was the less important of the two weapons, it even explicitly said it can be either belt or magazine fed with no importance (contractually) placed on magazine depth.
>it can be either belt or magazine fed with no importance (contractually) placed on magazine depth.
Yeah it the cae when client wants thing but doesn't tell he wants it. But everyone with two brain cells could've figured out Army would want more dakka for the MG. It's safe play you always can reduce high capacity magazine/box, but if you had no high capacity solution figured out it's too late to design one.
>Yeah it the cae when client wants thing but doesn't tell he wants it.
nta but this is ok in the civie market, it's not in major government procurement. That can and should be very, very specific. NGSW was badly run.
The round for the GD rifle was heavier than the polymer cases round. But you see, polymer cased ammo is not only retarded for the gun it's in with issues like overheating. But ecologically it's absolutely terrible, no one is gonna go pick up the millions of cases we leave laying around and they ain't gonna degrade or anything for multiple lifetimes. It's just bad idea all around, and with any hope they will die off as a stupid idea.
Polymer degrades faster than copper
This isn't even close to true, copper will be essentially ore by the time the polymer cased ammo begins to break down. I don't know what they use for it but to give them the benefit of the doubt lets assume it's some form of polypropylene which in it's weakest form will start breaking down after about 500 years and up to about 1000 years. Metallic objects will oxidize with in a handful of years and begin breaking down anywhere from 10 to maybe 300 years depending on the metals and such. Genuinely depends on the condition of the area though, if you go to an old shooting spot or walk around places that people used to hunt at you can see all sorts of cases lying around and you'll notice shotgun shells still are just as bright and nice as the day they are bought where old brass cases laying about will be corroded and completely useless outside of scrap for melting.
The problem is that copper doesn't leak toxic shit into the soil as it degrades. Plastic often does. And it doesn't just dissolve, erosion can cause it to break down into plastic nanoparticles, which can cause big issues when ingested by organisms.
you say that as if the whole continent wasn't already saturated with microplastics. Bullet casings would be a drop in a bucket compared to all the other sources
copper itself is toxic...
>the only EPA-certified solid disinfectant
bravo Ordinance Corps
it's environmentally friendly, chud
IT'S FUCKING PLASTIC.
MADE FROM OIL, SYNTHETIC GOD KNOWS WHAT CHAIN OF WHAT, PLASTIC.
>polymer pollutes the environment worse then the depleted uranium meme
Fixed what you said.
You fucking retard.
How can someone be so confidently retarded, they are technically long chain hydrocarbons, plasticity is essentially how easily shapped a material is or how well it holds it's shape.
Polymers are quite literally just "many parts" which means chains of monomers such as the aforementioned long chain hydrocarbons. Calling them plastics is common because most of these LCHC's are very plastic, as in they hold their shape very well. All LCHC's are polymers but not all ploymers are LCHC's. However the term plastic to refer to either is wrong and not correct even if it is what almost everyone uses including companies that produce the shit.
Kindly shut the fuck up and stop talking out of your ass.
>polymer cased ammo is not only retarded for the gun it's in with issues like overheating
How you you think that works, from a physics perspective?
The heat generated from the explosion in the cartridge has nowhere to go except out into the barrel, it doesn't just stay in the casing. Despite what marketers will imply no it doesn't contain the heat better and throw it out of the gun, that's simply not how it works. The heat will go the path of least resistance which happens to be the barrel/chamber.
People who actually test the ammo with thermal cameras found that it reduced heat build up in the gun, both in the chamber and the barrel. It is a straight decrease of heat for the same bullet energy.
That's not how heat works you idiots, heat doesn't just sit still in a cartridge it escapes, and it takes the path of least resistance, so a polymer case that is a poor conductor it will exit out of the hole that the bullet leaving just made.
For traditional brass the heat will absorb into the brass as it's not a shit conductor.
Think of it like a wire, if you have a circuit and there's a piece of plastic in the middle of it, the plastic doesn't absorb all that heat it just causes the 2 ends to get really hot until they melt the plastic.
It's simple thermodynamics.
heat is energy meaning it just gives you more velocity buddy, pls dont try to dunning kruger thermodynamics
Heat is energy but it's not kinetic energy it's thermal energy, if I blast a bullet with a propane torch that doesn't make it move.
When the explosion in the cartridge happens it releases a lot of energy really quickly, this energy is thermal, it makes pressure build up until the bullet moves from all that pressure that bullet is converting the thermal energy to kinetic energy but once the bullet is gone all that's left is the thermal energy that needs to leave, it goes along the path of least resistance which just so happens to be the massive gaping hole in the cartridge. Brass will absorb some of this energy due to it being a good conductor.
I don't get why this is such a hard concept for people to understand.
>this energy is thermal, it makes pressure build up until the bullet moves from all that pressure
So you understand this but somehow you don't understand that more energy means more pressure and if a portion of that energy is escaping into the chamber/barrel through a decent conductor like brass, you have less energy generating pressure and therefore less pressure moving the projectile.
in your rambling you seem to miss the point of TV plastic ammo having literally less propellant than normal brass cartridges for pretty much the same end performance with a lot of less heat.
This is not theoretical, there are plenty of videos of people touching chambers with naked fingers after firing TV ammo.
The plastic doesn’t absorb heat but it doesn’t transmit it to the chamber either. So instead of getting conduction from the brass casing, the chamber heats up gradually as the barrel heats up, which is a much slower process.
There is a whole Forgotten Weapon's video on why you are wrong.
you're an idiot
>The round for the GD rifle was heavier than the polymer cases round
dude stop, the gd rifle was the one with the polymer cased round.
gonna have to stop you right there
If WW3 started tomorrow and every single country used polymer casings, the total plastic pollution from them would be less than 3 months of what the world dumps into landfills and the ocean just by consuming.
If one hundred plastic bullets manage to kill one person, the net pollution of the world would decrease.
>and more important has shit accuracy and doesn't work with GP 6.8 EPR bullet.
I just like how it cycles, never seen a bullet lift like that before
where did you get that gif?
the cycling reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Owogu_un7s
how does caseless ammo fair in different weather conditions?
is it effected by exposure to prolonged high humidity? what happens if it gets wet from rain or snow?
Much as I love the possibilities of a moving chamber design, it does introduce some issues with alignment and sealing that are not present on conventional barrels.
The polymer CT case fixed that problem. It bulges out slightly under pressure to make a seal and then retracts once the pressure ends.
A "bullet lift" is surprisingly common in machineguns, especially old ones with all sorts of awkward/elegant bullshit happening in the internals. Most notably anything involving rimmed cartridges because of belts.
any examples you know?
Why would a ~20 grams round with far better penetration than 7.62 (25 grams) and 5.56 (12 grams) be bad?
Program was inherently asking for a bullpup.
>we need a gun that uses a suppressor by default
>with suppressor, it needs to be the length of an M16
>but also, it needs to be a battle rifle with superior ballistics to a .308 of similar size while using lighter ammo
The 3 entries were all it could have been. Your options were:
>conventional design with retarded high pressure that barely meets requirement
>design with exotic ammo and action
>bullpup that exceeds requirements in all areas
Corruption all around
>conventional design with retarded high pressure + 19'' bullpup
yeah but then on the off-chance it ever does kaboom you face is next to 120k psi
>implying you face can tank "conventional" bullpup caboom
See? They do fine.
What gun is this?
You should be banned for being such a fucking newfag holy shit
people forget that this was more about the machine gun rather than the rifle. And all GD did was throw a bipod on their 20 rnd mag rifle like it was vietnam
yet the initial requests said "MG is an after thought, don't even care if its belt fed"
still stupid of them not to make a proper LMG or make what the army needs rather than wants and both of the other competitors did that
>MG is an after thought, don't even care if its belt fed
They're still retards if they thought that actually meant that putting zero effort into it was a good idea. The military still asked for a machinegun at the end of the day, I don't know how the fuck you expect to slap a bipod and a heavy barrel on the rifle and not get absolutely clowned on by competitors.
>The military still asked for a machinegun at the end of the day
They didn't, they asked for an "automatic rifle"
Read this from the original PPON.
>they asked for an "automatic rifle"
Yes, and a rifle with a heavy barrel and a bipod is almost unilaterally agreed to fucking suck at doing automatic rifle things. Even the chinese and russians are starting to move away from that shit and just adopting belt-feds.
Again, if they wanted an LMG why not ask for that?
They specifically left it open to interpretation.
So your argument is that these companies are too stupid to ask for clarification at any point during the competition and you head canon is correct?
SIG won and your brain can't let that go. You're the one coping here.
Criticism is a good thing
Constantly bitching about it like it punched your mother's cooter isn't criticism.
It's just a little fun, whats the harm in making fun of SIG every once in a while? It's not like anyone here works there.
>SIG won and your brain can't let that go
But I wanted SIG to win.
>They specifically left it open to interpretation.
I don't see how that runs counter to the fact that they interpreted it in a fucking stupid way. It's not a grand mystery that the army wanted it to replace the 249, which one could assume they see some positive qualities in given that they've been using it for 40 goddamn years. Slapping a heavy barrel on your rifle is a piss poor attempt and it shouldn't surprise anyone that they picked one of the competitors that actually tried to make something that fit the role.
you know what makes me kek to no end? The fact their ammunition by itself is literally better than SIG's LMG offering.
The whole point of a SAW is to lay down suppressing fire. As dated and heavy as the M240 is, as an infantry support unit you want as many rounds as you can possibly carry. The total weight of a loadout with composite rounds is lighter or at the very least on par a full XM250 loadout. On top of that the 6.8 M240 will have significantly less recoil because not only is the gun heavier but the rounds are lower pressure. And just as a cherry on top the barrel will stay significantly coolerunder sustained fire and thus preform significantly better.
the downfall of sig.
i love my german made 226
>downfall of sig
>wins both major rifle contract AND pistol contract simultaneously
>sig p365 is the most revolutionary carry gun since the Glock 19 and is the most popular gun on gun rocker
The p320 is an embarrassment of design but it still beat Glawk. The spear won its contract as well. Sig is dominating the civilian ccw market with the p365. How is this their downfall? Sig will be the most cash-flush gun company in history in the coming years.
>sig p365 is the most revolutionary carry gun since the Glock 19 and is the most popular gun on gun rocker
There's absolutely nothing about it that's "revolutionary" it's literally a glock with a better trigger and non-retarded sights. Hell it's not even the first time SIG made this exact same gun, the only real difference is SIG actually has marketing now.
I agree however that SIG will say relevant for at least another decade then they will probably go down the path of Colt or FN.
>There's absolutely nothing about it that's "revolutionary" it's literally a glock with a better trigger and non-retarded sights.
I wouldn't say "revolutionary", but it's not just a Glock with a different trigger and sights, it's smaller in every dimension than a Glock 19 while still having more capacity than the microcompact single stacks, that's it's whole schtick, just like the Hellcat, Shield Pro, Max 9, and so on and so on.
> it's literally a glock with a better trigger and non-retarded sights
It holds 67% more rounds than the Glock 43 in the same footprint (6 inch slide, 4 inches high, 1 inch wide). AND it has a better trigger AND better sights AND better ergonomics. It’s the #1 gun on gun broker for a reason (after years and years of the Glock 19 wearing that crown).
Cope more Glawk retard.
Yeah nah, I don't like glock but again this isn't anything special.
Steyr did the whole frame fits into a grip thing in the 90s with the M9 series
SILENCE SIGGER, WE AREN'T WOWED BY YOUR CHEAP TRICKS AND GIVING PROCUREMENT BRASS BOARD SEATS.
I'm just gonna assume the General Dynamics bullpup almost won until the buttplug suppressor. They even kept the A2 handle.
Kill all bullpupmorons.
>Textron should have won hands down
Stopped reading. General dynamics won.
Remember it was the Mormons, more specific the Robinsons that stopped Textron dead in its tracks
Utah is based that's what you're telling me
The army is generally retarded when it comes to acquisition and design. Civilians generally design better shit for hunting for cheaper.
>thinks a meme shit novel ammo type could ever win
Lmao, underagers still seething years later
Bullpup should have won
>the LSAT should have won.
Nothing should have won because the program was based on faulty premises. Guided bombs are more effective at defeating body armor and vehicle armor, and have much greater range, accuracy, and precision. The M4 is adequate for close protection and the Marines IAR concept is a better place to dead end small arms development than a battle rifle that burns its own barrel in under 5k rounds.
Anon, the LSAT was Textron's previous design that applied the same cased telescoped ammo but with the goal of simply duplicating 5.56 in a much smaller and lighter package (~60% the weight with the ammo being the same size as .357 magnum without the rim). The rifle also able fed backwards out of the mag rather than being forced to feed forward due to ammo size issues like Textron's NGSW entry was, which allowed them to fit a 4" longer barrel into an M4 size package.
>Anon, the LSAT was Textron's previous design...
And it was unnecessary because the marginal improvements in weight did not justify the cost of a switch. Rifles are not a war winning weapon. Developing dumb weapons with greater reach and power is a waste of money and time. The wars in Ukraine and Nagorno-Karabakh have demonstrated the value of cheap guided weapons. We have those weapons but they are barely being used at the squad level. The Army should have put a greater focus on issuing every infantryman at least one and developing tactics for coordinated attacks and defense, and building more chip manufacturing in the US to crank out more Arduino and Pi boards.
>60% weight reduction
>marginal improvement in weight
Not enough to justify the cost of the switch and the ditching of all stockpiled ammo.
You will get smoked by a cubicle ratling without ever seeing your enemy.
I know plenty about it. I followed it from start to finish and I never said it was a bad rifle or MG. I said that it was a mistake to try to replace the M4 because the whole program was based on faulty premises and the rifleman is not a very important part of modern war. And I stand by that. Smart weapons at the infantry level were the new hot stuff when I was in HS and full integration is still lagging behind where it could be.
>You will get smoked by a cubicle ratling without ever seeing your enemy.
>dronetard thinks the US Army is as ill equipped to deal with drones as Russia or Ukraine
The big threat is not Russia, it's China. The chicoms have a million man army, a billion potential conscripts, and lots of missiles that they fully intend to use in overwhelming numbers to saturate American missile defenses. A lot of China's military equipment just a few years ago was dogshit, but they're quickly replacing a lot of it with cheap copies of American weapons. The tech gap is closing and the only question is whether they will be able to close that gap with enough theft before their economy and population collapse or not. Never underestimate your enemy. Assume they have an advantage and plan accordingly.
>b-but muh drones
Fuck off retard.
Glad to know you know absolutely nothing about the LSAT, it was better in every conceivable way, I will admit it doesn't work as well in a conventional rifle but even that conventional rifle is still superior to all the other shit we have.
LSAT is abortion child of the caseless program.
There is no need and there is nothing good in the moving chamber. It's inherently non accurate design, minuscule misaligned of the chamber shifts POI.
There is nothing good in the humongous freebore its incompatible with small shank VLD bullets like 6.8 GP.
It's fat round with smaller magazine capacity (Textron 20 rds mag is the same height as 7.62x51/6.8 25 rds mag).
If you want plastic then TV ammo is better in the every way.
>It's inherently non accurate design, minuscule misaligned of the chamber shifts POI.
Source on it actually making a significant difference?
>It's fat round with smaller magazine capacity (Textron 20 rds mag is the same height as 7.62x51/6.8 25 rds mag).
Source? Their 5.56 managed to match the diameter of normal 5.56.
I’ve seen that infographic posted before on here when I asked about CT ammo diameter. I’m calling bullshit now. Unless that 5.56 CT is running at retard pressures, there is no way it’s duplicating 5.56 performance with a shorter and narrower powder reservoir.
>he hasn't seen that experimental straight wall 5.56 that's the same length as normal 5.56 and managed to duplicate its performance
Pressures are higher, but not that high.
>reductions in weight aren't worth it
>let's give everybody guided munitions
Ask me how I know you're either a POG or a neverserved.
Reducing the weight of the grunt's gear allows them to carry those guided munitions and drones without crippling them
>sees NGSW thread
>anticipates many assblasted posts within
>opens NGSW thread
>sees many assblasted posts
I've come to expect nothing less from professional PrepHoleopers. I hereby give you permission to KNEEL.
Bullpups fuck off.
Textron's battle rifle was so painfully retarded it became impossible to take them seriously. This is something you have in common with it.
>Then you got .277 fury which is extremely overpressured for next to no gain since it give .308 preformance with .308 recoil but it has a shit ton more stress on the gun itself and all that so they can cut down the barrel by 2 inches and then put a 6 inch suppressor there.
These types of takes are so retarded, we don't know the performance of the .277 moron the only ammo that is available for civilians is the watered down training ammo. Everyone telling you online that it's a failure is talking out of their ass.
The requirement is a 130-140gr bullet at 3,000 fps out of a 16" barrel. You can replicate this with .hot 308 as is or several of its shortened wildcats with and without lead free bullets. It's literally a DOA design that was outdone by cases invented 60 years ago using now modern powders. Similarly .223 has some wildcats that can reliably take elk at up to 100 yds in the right load and configuration (specifically .300hamr w/130gr bullets at 2500fps). You literally do not need to switch cases from the .308 or .223 to meet almost every need in hunting or military applications.
You can carry more of smaller rounds. If they picked 308 they would have way less ammo. That's the difference
I wanted the bullpup simply because American allies are moving away from that design and this seems like a good time for some old fashioned Burger Fuckery.
NGSW should've went like this:
>Announce a competition to design a new battle rifle with a large effective range
>The only real requirement is that all entries must fire the same 6.8 projectile, the competitors are allowed to design the cartridge and everything else
>Winner is selected, great we have a cool new rifle and a new cartridge
>A second competition is held, this time to design a new LMG
>Competitors are required to use the same cartridge the rifle uses
Or maybe hold the LMG competition first and the rifle second instead. Either order would have been better than doing both at once. Also Textron blows.
I kinda feel like the cartridge itself should have come first. Get everyone together, do the best most advanced fucking cartridge possible, cased telescoped polymer or whatever, do some test platforms make sure it performs well, done. THEN hold 100% separate competitions for the rifle and LMG, everyone designs for the same target, then test the shit out of that fully independently.
The DoD has wasted billions chasing useless upgrades you say? Hard to believe, next you'll tell me the ACU program was a waste of money too! Chuds might not like it but this is what peak kleptocracy looks like.
Nah UCP was cool, I don't have an issue with the programs perse but considering we have had so many of these programs since the 80's that all came to a "we don't want it" conclusion then this is the shit we got out of it. That's pretty gay, multiscam is also gay especially when we had AOR1 and 2 already.
Thoughts on pic rel PrepHole? Tbh when it comes to killing body armor I've always believed smaller rounds with higher speed would be the correct choice. This twitter fag seems to think a polymer 6mm ARC would do the trick to an extent. I don't know enough about ARC to shill that option however but I thought I'd post to see if any smart anons could weigh in.
IMO 6.8 is an amazing round for GPMG and DMRs but I think the ammo capacity is an issue. I believe that most data from pervious conflicts showed volume of fire as a key factor, of course you can probably fire pretty quick with 6.8 if you really wanted to. I don't think there was a way for them to get the range and lethality they wanted while not fucking with their mag size and weight
>Thoughts on pic rel PrepHole?
If 6mm really worked best for what the Army wanted, they would have gone with that rather than 6.8mm, and the Army's reasoning for going with 6.8mm remains classified.
Who's to say the Army is right in their reasoning?
No, they don't. There's been pushes to move away from tungsten due to most of it being mined in China.
What is your point?
>Lighter bullet, wind drift
6mm ARC bullets have high BC's and are not some 77-80 grain 6mm like the Chinese are using, 103, 105, and 108 grains are relatively common.
>Specific right ratio
What are you even saying?
Fleet yaw research lead to the EPR design, and ADVAP + the 6.8 SIG rounds use a very similar layout.
How? 6mm ARC at higher pressures would likely exceed the velocities of 6.8 SIG, be lighter than 6.8 SIG, offer higher capacity than the 6.8 SIG, etc.
Steel core even at 500fps more velocity than they are asking doesn't even pen lvl iv at 100m. Their requirement was a meme to begin with. Also using a case that is compatible with a hostile powers' case over your own blocks' case is not a bright idea. 6mm ARC bullets are light in comparison to the requirement (130gr+). If you cannot understand basic ballistics you shouldn't even be posting here.
Try again. Steel & Tungsten aren't the only penetrator materials
First off, the case isn't compatible, look at the SAAMI drawings of 6ARC and 7.62x39mm AND the case materials that guy in the screenshot is presenting. Are you assuming you can take any standard die and expand the neck back out to 7.62, get a shoulder that the polycase ammo doesn't, etc.? Think a little please.
>Light in comparison
Who's to say the requirements aren't a mistake? 130 grains is lighter than the spec for .308, so I guess they're shit too, right? Fucking retard.
Post your reloading setup you absolute fucking toothless moron.
I doubt it, DU has political baggage and I hear the US is tightening up their stockpile of the stuff, so it'll likely be more along the lines of a ceramic or special alloy, like a hardened USAF-96-type job or similar. Could be graphene or advanced plastics too, I don't know about them too much though, just the previous two.
Penetrator design also plays a factor, hence why the EPR looks the way it does instead of just being another jacketed core etc etc
Google "Novel penetrator materials"
>Jacks pressure to 120kpsi
>DU-core EPR zips right through
Try again Eurocuck
Steel and tungsten are the standard and most available penetrate materials. DU costs over $100/oz, and DU is actually less dense than tungsten. The article you mentions offers no direct alternative material to tungsten and instead suggest the use of anti personnel explosives and sabots (which without tungsten or extreme energy will still not kill a lvl of wearer). Different bores have different standard weights, 130gr is close to standard for a .277 (7mm) bullet, just like 150gr is for .308 (7.82mm) and 55gr is for long .223 (5.7mm). If the requiment calls for a 130gr bullet a bore larger than .243 is needed, hence why they went with 7mm (which still has high BC, long range, and a heavier standard bullet weight). Smaller bore penetrates work best, but ONLY if you are using MUCH DENSER material than the target you are hitting. This is why even steel core 6mm, or 5.7mm (4.5mm penetrate core) will NOT pen level of composite. You either have to change naterial, or change the requirement and use explosives or extreme energy (autocanon levels) to kill the lvl iv wearers.
Are there replacement materials for tungsten? Obviously DU but I'm not sure they'd go that route for obvious reasons. There any types of composite materials that would work that anyone knows about?
I kinda bugs me that the reasoning is classified. fucking glowfags keeping all the good boolit data to themselves
>Are there replacement materials for tungsten?
Not likely. And you don't need much tungsten to begin with. 1lb makes about 200+ ~30gr 5.56mm penetrators which can pen lvl iv at 100m. That's how much of an advantage the material gives.
>Who's to say the Army is right in their reasoning?
Because they have tons of studies backing their reasoning rather than just the opinions of random people online who's knowledge heavily comes from bullshit that was repeated enough that people accept it as fact without question.
>No, they don't. There's been pushes to move away from tungsten due to most of it being mined in China.
Post a real source for the Army stating that. Because otherwise the AP ammo is based on the 7.62 ADVAP design that uses a tungsten carbide core.
So I've seen the tungsten thing thrown around a bit before. Is the issue that the US has no tungsten, or one of those misrepresented things that the US offshored/doesn't have enough of the mining/refinement capabilities or whatnot. You see that line a lot with rare earth elements that china controls the entire worlds supply, and while that's technically true it's more to do with the refinement and industry and not just the north America is entirely devoid of the material in general. Like how there are actually shitloads of REE deposits in the US and Canada but they just don't mine it because it's expensive and the industry doesn't exist now, plus china's control of the market share undercuts competitors. So assuming that Tungsten really is an issue for domestic supply then couldn't the US government/military just put the investment into the industry as a matter of national security, somewhat similar to what they're trying to do with REEs and semiconductors?
>So I've seen the tungsten thing thrown around a bit before. Is the issue that the US has no tungsten, or one of those misrepresented things that the US offshored/doesn't have enough of the mining/refinement capabilities or whatnot.
The issue is that people took the theorycrafting of what the future of small arms could look like from one of the writers for TFB as absolute fact and memed it so hard that people now think it's an Army requirement without questioning it.
yeah the blog post was a little unbelievable for me considering China doesn't even outfit it's own forces with level IV plates to a consistent degree. Not to mention insurgents with plates is great and all but hardly a requirement for that type of conflict, money is better spent on training, lightweight ATGMs, IEDs and drones.
I wonder with enough investment into the tech if they could get by with steel by using better manufacturing processes, like say hot isostatic pressing or high pressure torsion, shit like that isn't widespread to my knowledge but from what I've read those processes strengthen alloys and ceramics a pretty crazy amount.
>I wonder with enough investment into the tech if they could get by with steel by using better manufacturing processes,
Hardness isn't the issue, density is. This is why tungsten is king and lead is king for standard ammo. I've looked into theoretically using steel core ammo to pen lvl iv in minecraft and theoretically you need about 1000 more fps than what conventional loadings offer in a .223 bore, more fps if you increase the bore.
I wanna say HIP was able to get higher density because the way process alters the grain structure but I have no info on how much for a given metal so I can't say if it would even come close to tungsten at all lol. My biggest gripe with NGSW is just the loss of ammo and potential reduction in volume of fire. That said I chose to have faith that they were aware of the tradeoffs. I'm really just waiting for more info on the project, specifically for reviews once it starts hitting troops in numbers.
Ductility could also play a factor against ultra-hard ceramics I'm thinking, if the flexural strength is enough to resist shattering/bending, though length would help alot too.
I'd like to get whatever program it is those folk on YouTube use to run "simulations" on different tank rounds, but I'm not quite sure what they use or how much they cost. Besides, I'd need a supercomputer to run them I imagine.
I'm much more of a tankfag then a boolit fag. Those simulations are really tough to model but based on the ones I've seen and military related PDFs on APFSDS performance I've read they SEEM to reflect what happens in the test environments fairly well. Specifically there was a simulation video on a 3BM42 against an earlier Abrams UFP 38mm thick at 81 degrees, simulation video pretty much nailed what I read in the effects on sabot penetrators against highly sloped armor on DTIC, that said it's probably a case by case basis for each video. I think it would have a much easier time for bullets, there a lot less guesswork involved since it's generally known what a level IV plate would be made from and same for AP bullets. It be cool to see
Yeah, a lot of what I imagine small arms penetrators could be configured like comes from what I've seen/read about tankery, it's just a shame those simulators on YT don't seem to show small arms as much, nor say what programs they use.
I was thinking of ghettorigging some testing of my own IRL, either by real poorfag ways like just melting the lead out of jackets and replacing it with TIG rods or whatever, to getting a swaging setup, but both are kind of far away at just this moment.
Could be interesting paired with case tech like SIG and ShellShock are doing.
China, Vietnam and Russia have like 85% of all the planet's wolfram mines combined. That's the problem here.
Right right, the Army's never gotten it wrong before, of course, how could I be so dumb.
And I don't recall ever saying the Army wasn't using Tungsten, you said the cartridge NEEDS tungsten, to which I said it doesn't.
The problem with Chinese tungsten is already part of the Federal Register you fucking mongoloid: DFARS Case 2020-D007
I get all that, what are you responding to?
Lmfao ADVAP is literally M80A1 and M993 having a one night stand.
Most of these "studies" are bought and payed for.
Not him, but you should read this article by the exalted one, Nathaniel F. He explains is greater detail why standardizing on tungsten won’t work.
>He explains is greater detail why standardizing on tungsten won’t work.
US Army buys around 100 millions 5.56 per yeah most of it is used for training and don't need to be SP round. Let say Army needs 10% of ammo as SP combat only ammo. With 8 grams per bullet its 10 millions of SP or just 80 tons of tungsten. Currently US consumes 11000 tons of tungsten annually. Checkmate ching chongs.
From what I can see of M995 procurement from 2000-2012, the US procured somewhere around 40,000,000 rounds of M995.
And from what I can tell, hasn't been procured since around that time period.
Though M993 continues to see occasional orders.
>Because they have tons of studies backing their reasoning rather than just the opinions of random people online who's knowledge heavily comes from bullshit that was repeated enough that people accept it as fact without question.
Fuck off glowie. The US military is laughably incompetent and corrupt when it comes to procurement.
>How? 6mm ARC at higher pressures would likely exceed the velocities of 6.8 SIG, be lighter than 6.8 SIG, offer higher capacity than the 6.8 SIG, etc.
Take the case volume and divide by bore area. The higher this number, the higher the velocity for a given sectional density. That’s an easy way to compare the potential of 2 cartridges. 6.8x51 will have higher velocity.
As for mag capacity. The difference in case head size between 6mm ARC and 6.8x51 (308-based) is minimal. You might get an extra round in the magazine, at most.
In order for any of these cartridges to pen lvl iv at even 300m they need tungsten cores. 6mm ARC also uses 220 russian case platform, which is what also spawned 7.62x39. It also uses a lighter bullet which is more subject to wind drift at range and complicates penetration unless the tungsten core is in the specific right ratio with the total weight of the bullet and also tumbles more after barrier penetration. A slightly larger broe would be superior for this role, such as a 6.5 or 6.8.
NTA. on the matter of wind-drift, is it absolute BC that matters, or are SD and form factor weighed separately? If it’s absolute BC, the 6.8x51’s BC and thus wind drift is attainable with long, fine, and heavy .224 bullets. The 5.45x39 or 6.8SPC case both could have been great foundations for such a cartridge that would produce the same (or better) external ballistics as 6.8x51, while being smaller, lighter, lighter recoiling, and granting higher magazine capacity.
With regards to your picrel
>could potentially penetrate level 4 armor at 3-400 yards
What? Level 4 IIRC stops ~0.5G1BC @2870fps. Ok 0.5G1BC 6mm bullets already exist, but 2870+fps at 3-400 yards? Muzzle velocity needs to be 3500fps for that kind of performance (at300yds). Magnum level propellant is needed for that, not even short action, much less 2.26” OAL.
Why not go the micro-caliber direction with the NGSW? Take sig’s hybrid case, scale it all the way down to the size of a 5.7 case, stick a super fine, light for caliber bullet in it, either .224 or .204, duplicating, or in the case of the .204, exceeding 5.56 FABRL ballistics. use 70-100 round quad stacks mags with a combat load of 500 rounds. And Shoot where there isn’t any armor. As a bonus, everyone’s rifle becomes an LMG. Is it absolutely imperative to shoot in the one place where there’s a bigass steel plate? A man still has a head, neck, limbs, a pelvis, crotch, lower-midsection, massive thighs, etc.
From a design perspective these concepts always involve plentiful buzzwords but tear away the obfuscation and the alleged performance always comes down to the addition of an extremely energetic propellant.
I think they made a cool civilian rifle. I kind of want one of these
that mag looks like the fucked up ones they have on the AR's in FNV
Thanks to small recon/attack drones, IVAS, and NGSW-FC, indirect firepower like mortars/GLs/javelins/etc is much more important.
So wouldn't the smart thing to do is have a PDW/Carbine for self-defense and urban CQC and have drones/mortars/grenade-launchers/missiles/etc do everything else?
*teleports in front of u*
*stops ur "armor piercing" round*
heh nuthin' personell siggers....
You have to stop Kraut 7.92 from 1943 first, cyberpunk bro.
>are the only one that was even in the ballpark of advancing firearms design.
you imply they give a shit
>The GD rifle is a joke and polymer cases are an abomination that will hopefully never see the light of day
Plastic cartridges is a fucking brilliant development and they worked incredibly in testing. The bullpup should have won and probably lost for only having one gun
Sig just pays everyone to gargle on their cock, and it is sad but that is how the gun adoption process has always worked since at least the 1800s
Don't worry. The program will be canceled before full procurement because reasons. The contractors will be paid their kill fees, and most importantly -- the former Generals they employ will get their bonuses.
Then, on the the next fiasco.
This was the pet project of the guy that lost Afghanistan.
>the guy that lost Afghanistan
Which person are you talking about?
The entire program was retarded but SIG winning was the best outcome.
FN's .264 LICC is closer to what i think is the right direction.
Do we have ballistics numbers on that yet?
Not yet but the Soldier Systems article on it mentioned it having 70% more energy compared to 5.56 which would put it in about the same ballpark as 6.5 Creedmoor. And it's been noted that just like the .277 Fury it still has room to grow.
I find it interesting how SIG decided to use this technology to get high performance out of short barrels while FN went the other way and uses it to make the ammo cases smaller.
It's a fine rifle honestly with a ridiculously futuristic computer controlled weapons system.
It costs a pretty penny but the Pentagon has literal trillions to spare.
The concern is losing one of these and its tech in battle.
Because the enemy pays $0 to obtain that rifle.
And can still kill with an AR or AK or what have you.
Which is what most service members are keeping, the standard previous rifle.
They are rolling them out for people in combat roles first from what I've read.
oh no, Textron sistas...
>mag is the length of an AR mag, and can also be kept polymer due to the telescoped case design rather than needing to be steel like they found with the other entries
What's wrong with this?
20rds 7.62x51 (also 6.8 TV) is shorter mag. 25rds 7.62x51 PMAG is about same length as 5.56x45 30 rounder.
I wonder if desert tech's quattro system would work well with 6.8 TVC or if the pressure from the spring would damage the polymer case.
The quattro system doesn't even work well enough with regular brass for military use.
new NERF catalog just dropped
How do you improve upon perfection? You don't, you just make a mess.
Introducing wildly different cartridge design, as well as guns with completely alien operating mechanisms and principles to a military that has historically used the same ammunition and the same gun with the same controls for almost 60 years would be lunacy.
Your retarded ass is also forgetting that these guns are going to be handed out to retarded Latinx mutts from Houston who have to be able to group with it and field strip it.
Then they have to be serviced and cared for by the same mutts in the armory.
Enter the MCX, a familiar gun with more efficient operating principles and a cartridge that bridges the gap between manufacturability and effectiveness. A simple solution to a complex problem that can be modified or changed extremely easily (a set of Torx screwdrivers) to adapt to differing requirements and applications without significant disassembly or modification.
Brevity in design is the soul of innovation
>The GD rifle is a joke and polymer cases are an abomination that will hopefully never see the light of day
Bullpups and polymer ammo is the future, cope harder texchud.
Most militaries are saying otherwise. Hell France is getting an AR.
>ballpark of advancing firearms
True, but the contract wasn't a long term R&D program they wanted a rifle now for some reason. It still sometimes happens that failed candidates for one program are resurrected for another so it'll probably be resurrected once sig again fails to innovate.
I'll be sure to have my Chinese rep look into this
>ballpark of advancing firearms design.
Shame that the project was for creating a replacement for the M249 that could also be used as a service rifle and not 'advancing firearm design".
Retards tend to forget that the M249 replacement was more important than the service rifle portion
>Retards tend to forget that the M249 replacement was more important than the service rifle portion
In what way?
The M249 replacement in the PPON is literally listed as "Factor 2" behind "Factor 1" the rifle.
the LMG was so fucking good compared to its competition that sig was chosen despite the other rifles programs being superior. Are you retarded or do you not understand this. The number one factor is the rifle, but that doesnt mean its the only one.
Why wasn't Textron's rifle a bullpup?
The forward ejection would have made it ambidextrous.
The earlier rifles meant to replicate 5.56 performance were different internally and ejected in more or less the same place as a conventional rifle. They fed the rounds backwards and got a little extra barrel length out of the deal too. Someone who knows more about them could explain it better. I assume that mechanism didn't work with the new cartridge when the project got hijacked and shifted from a lightweight intermediate round to a .270 super magnum.
i legit cant tell if the mass of anti-sig threads are a russian psyop or just triggered autists mad that the bullpup didnt win
unironically white nationalists think SIG is garden gnome controlled/run and part of some conspiracy to fuck the US tax payers out of billions of dollars through bullshit weapon contracts like the M17 and M18, and the M7 and M250.
>conspiracy to fuck the US tax payers out of billions of dollars through bullshit weapon contracts like the M17 and M18, and the M7 and M250.
well this part is definitely true, but that wouldn't be specific to any garden gnomes. I will say that the M17/M18 contract is tiny -- $20.4 million is peanuts. Sig will benefit more from the civilian market recognition of winning it and the civilian market sales of the 320.
The NGSW contract was the big con. $4.5 billion. Now that's a fucking boondoggle taxpayer fund waste scam if I've ever seen one.
>SIG is garden gnome controlled/run
I mean, this part isn't even disputed. The CEO's name is Cohen. garden gnomes get so mad when you point out that they're in charge, then they also brag about being in charge. lmao.
>I will say that the M17/M18 contract is tiny -- $20.4 million is peanuts
> Sig Sauer Inc., Newington, New Hampshire, was awarded up to $580,217,000 for a firm-fixed-price contract for the Modular Handgun System including handgun, accessories and ammunition to replace the current M9 handgun
Ah sorry, the $20.4 million was the initial delivery order.
Okay so yeah, BOTH the NGWS and the MHS contracts are total boondoggle garden gnome open conspiracies against the US taxpayers. Thanks. What a fucking joke
>t. paid $75k in federal taxes in 2022
>think SIG is garden gnome controlled
Come on, now
>Today, SIG SAUER, Inc. is proud to release an exclusive video featuring President & CEO, Ron Cohen highlighting the U.S. Army's Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW) Program.
I thought the anti-sig stuff was just people highlighting how shit their QC has been and how terrible the first generation of their new firearms(like the p320) have been
How did they even manage to make a bullpup that ugly, when even the RDB looks decent?
Textron's "rifle" was a god damn abomination. For the purposes of a GPMG, the LSAT was fine. I dare you to find me a GPMG that isn't some clockwork abomination of sheet metal, rivets, and axel grease. But for a rifle? Retarded.
The rimless ammunition? Retarded. GD proved you can have working polymer ammunition with a rim that still functions well. Their submjssions rifle and GPMG were fucking retarded, however. The military isn't going to adopt a bullpup. The military will never adopt a bullpup. Every country that adopted a bullpup who has the budget, is getting rid of their bullpups.
Sig gave the military EXACTLY what it wanted. A fucking AR10, with a folding stock. .277 whizbang is retarded in principle, execution its what it needs to be.
The whole fucking program is fucking stupid. All that was needed was telescoped polymer 5.56, and thats literally it. You want higher BC bullets? Perfect, we're rechambering the M4 anyway, well make 100 grain 5.56 thats longer, and thus achieves a higher BC.
And once thats done, we'll actually fucking adopt an affordable GPDMR instead of a 25,000 dollar a rifle M110a1 or a2 and fucking actually issue them to troops, instead of keeping them as armory queens.
Daily reminder Chinaman McMilley fucked this shit six ways from hell the second whats his face retired, and Milley took over after Biden took office.