77 gr TMK Damage

>varmint round for varmints, designed to wound
um...fuddbros? were we wrong?

  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >another random pic off the internet

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/huSKMb4.jpg

      >and another

      you rpics dont specify if they are entrance or exit wounds. i would expect a little varmint high velocity round to explode on contact and make a nasty looking but completely superficial wound like that. maybe 1 or 2 inches of penetration that doesnt hit any vitals but creates a really bad looking crater

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >.223 bullet makes 3 inch entrance wound, seems probable
        >"penetrates 1-2 inches doesn't hit any vitals" all the deer are dead
        first picture is an exit. 95% sure pic 2 and pic 3 are also exits

        pic related, offside ribcage exits on a literal elk

        also see

        https://i.imgur.com/Mgnx4HU.jpg

        >"won't penetrate through a shoulder"
        >OPs full of exit wounds
        >pic related, someone shot a moose with this round
        >1st round penetrates ridge of shoulder blade, then penetrates shoulder blade, then penetrates through rib, then breaks spine
        >2nd round penetrates shoulder joint, then a rib, then thoracic cavity, stops in offside rib cage

        [...]
        1st OP pic: 80 yards from 16" barrel
        Shot with dude's hand to scale: 219 yards from 20" barrel
        Deer neck shot: 188 yards, 22.4 inch barrel?
        Moose shot: 168 yards, also a 22.4" barrel I think

        and

        https://i.imgur.com/qhZN5EW.jpg

        Welcome to fragmenting, mother fuckers

        They will still destroy less tissue than an equivalent bonded/good cup & core bullet at like velocities. With the right bullets such as a .223 shooting 77 gr TMKs, you're getting better wounds than what most people are shooting in full power rifle rounds

        my bad

        https://i.imgur.com/Mgnx4HU.jpg

        >"won't penetrate through a shoulder"
        >OPs full of exit wounds
        >pic related, someone shot a moose with this round
        >1st round penetrates ridge of shoulder blade, then penetrates shoulder blade, then penetrates through rib, then breaks spine
        >2nd round penetrates shoulder joint, then a rib, then thoracic cavity, stops in offside rib cage

        [...]
        1st OP pic: 80 yards from 16" barrel
        Shot with dude's hand to scale: 219 yards from 20" barrel
        Deer neck shot: 188 yards, 22.4 inch barrel?
        Moose shot: 168 yards, also a 22.4" barrel I think

        was supposed to be in response to

        High velocity, high energy rounds destroy meat and may not reach the vitals of they strike a shoulder. News at 11.
        Use a 45-70, save yourself some meat.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Anon, it destroys more tissue, a direct hit on the shoulder and it won't penetrate.
          As an added bonus, it limits the amount of angles you can shoot.
          Does it get results, sure we have an entire thread of fucking survivorship bias(or rather the opposite), you are only going to post the ones that are successful and not the many that wound a deer until it dies of infection weeks later.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            this is so dense that I bet 77 gr TMK wouldn't penetrate it

            >Anon, it destroys more tissue
            yeah it's not going to make a 3" hole in the surface of the skin around the entry wound, those are all exits. I have also seen pictures of entrance wounds from this loading, they're roughly caliber sized

            you see that moose from

            https://i.imgur.com/Mgnx4HU.jpg

            >"won't penetrate through a shoulder"
            >OPs full of exit wounds
            >pic related, someone shot a moose with this round
            >1st round penetrates ridge of shoulder blade, then penetrates shoulder blade, then penetrates through rib, then breaks spine
            >2nd round penetrates shoulder joint, then a rib, then thoracic cavity, stops in offside rib cage

            [...]
            1st OP pic: 80 yards from 16" barrel
            Shot with dude's hand to scale: 219 yards from 20" barrel
            Deer neck shot: 188 yards, 22.4 inch barrel?
            Moose shot: 168 yards, also a 22.4" barrel I think

            that probably weighs over 700 lb? they posted aftermath pics too. got penned twice by the same bullet and it kept on going through a rib and the spine, pic in post.

            That elk from

            https://i.imgur.com/wXAcRUt.jpg

            >.223 bullet makes 3 inch entrance wound, seems probable
            >"penetrates 1-2 inches doesn't hit any vitals" all the deer are dead
            first picture is an exit. 95% sure pic 2 and pic 3 are also exits

            pic related, offside ribcage exits on a literal elk

            also see [...] and [...]

            [...]
            my bad [...] was supposed to be in response to [...]

            also got hit in the shoulder on entry FYI

            >you are only going to post the ones that are successful and not the many that wound a deer until it dies of infection weeks later.
            can't find literally any across the entire internet to post. since you seem pretty confident about this, can you find an example where this happened and it wasn't something retarded like a gut or an ass shot or some pepega 3300 FPS .22-250 loading

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              that bullet exited with significant remaining velocity hence the bigass hole. it still had plenty of remaining penetration potential. if it was just barely exiting you'd see a small exit wound the size of the expanded bullet itself

              also see[...] [...] [...]

              [...]
              did I advocate for using 5.56 on moose dumbass? no, I'm posting that because if it goes through so many bones on a fucking moose and an elk it's sure going to work for a deer a fraction of the size.

              and btw in case you couldn't figure this out, that [...] picture is of the moose shoulder blade, which again the bullet had to pass through twice (first the ridge, then the main area) before punching through the rib and spine

              [...]
              nice shot anon

              [...]
              technically caliber does have quite a bit to do with effectiveness, a comparable bullet design in .308 for example would do much more damage. It's just that there is easily more difference in performance within those 2 calibers than between them, so a good 5.56 beats a bad 7.62 by a long shot.

              As for the lead I wonder if people are not being sufficiently cautious when processing their game. It's true that a lot of lead fragments are too small to see easily in meat, so you have to be conservative and cut out a larger portion than you think. You also don't want contamination from these bits to get into the rest of your meat so it's probably a good idea to remove all of the leaded mass before you hose out the rest of the carcass

              >look at this survivorship bias, clearly this is how it works all the time and is highly recommended
              There's no helping retards like you, have fun wounding and never recovering because you saw a few pictures of guys who made it work.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Are you the fucking retard that thinks this round only gets 2 inches of penetration?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Forget 77 gr TMK, your skull would be a suitable substitute for ERA.

                Riddle me this Mr. Galaxy Brain, if this bullet is frequently coring 2-3 elk and moose bones including shoulders and penetrating to the other side of the body, and exiting on most deer and hog shots, then what do you think is the likelihood that it doesn't even go through an onside deer shoulder. Or is basic sense and probability analysis that hard for you to understand?

                >"few pictures", more fudd reeing with zero actual evidence
                Dumbass I found photos from like 5 elk kills alone. There's probably about 100 fucking records of different deer and hog kills from over a dozen different people that gave glowing reviews of this bullet. On the flip side:
                0 accounts of bullet failure.

                How many other loadings can you say this about, pray tell.

                What barrel length and distance?

                see

                https://i.imgur.com/Mgnx4HU.jpg

                >"won't penetrate through a shoulder"
                >OPs full of exit wounds
                >pic related, someone shot a moose with this round
                >1st round penetrates ridge of shoulder blade, then penetrates shoulder blade, then penetrates through rib, then breaks spine
                >2nd round penetrates shoulder joint, then a rib, then thoracic cavity, stops in offside rib cage

                [...]
                1st OP pic: 80 yards from 16" barrel
                Shot with dude's hand to scale: 219 yards from 20" barrel
                Deer neck shot: 188 yards, 22.4 inch barrel?
                Moose shot: 168 yards, also a 22.4" barrel I think

                , barrel length and range data is in there.

                yeah, it's one of the first gen ones with the full wood handguard
                those bullets ought to work out of it then right?

                1:10 is a pretty uncommon twist rate, I'm unfamiliar with it. I'd think 62 gr would work but I can't say for sure. Your dad's going to need to try those rounds out beforehand just to zero them anyway so you could buy him some to test and use the M193 if that doesn't work, I would recommend 55 gr Gold Dot but there's none to be found.

                LE223T1 (55 gr TBBC in a .223 pressure loading) would definitely stabilize but it's slow as shit, not renowned for external ballistics, and probably not particularly damaging either. It does at least have more predictable performance than FMJ though.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Can you provide any real world evidence of what you claim is a common event actually happening?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                The evidence is generally in the regulations.
                Most states have a caliber restriction and it's very likely a lot of these images are in violation of those regulations.
                The people posting these pics haven't provided proof that these animals were shot with a .223, nor provided evidence that these "exit" wounds are actually as stated.
                Your best bet is to use something that has more momentum, energy, and more capable of performing work such that you have more shooting angles.

                This thread has a bunch of dipshits claiming these bullets work great based upon some images, but you and I both know why you won't hear about the many failures of low weight, high velocity, small caliber bullets.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It's 10 states (out of 50 so that means there's 40 states out there that dgaf about the overgrown dogs that are whitetail) and that's either because they have blanket bans on "AR"s or are shotgun only.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                we're talking about shooting men with these projectiles, and there's good reason to think that the 77g tmk's are superior at ruining people, you also don't usually shoot a person just once.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >government regulations reflect real life data and are not just arbitrary bullshit

                LOL
                O
                L

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >anecdotal images posted by some anon is data
                Lack of critical thinking allows retards to believe these bullets will make it through a shoulder bone.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >reality doesn't line up with my beliefs so reality is wrong
                Maybe those other posters were right about lead contamination in game, you've clearly had too much of it.
                Do a simple google search fuckwit, again, there is no vast underground society of 77 gr TMK hunters conspiring to fool you.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I don't need to disprove anecdotal nonsense.
                You're not making it through a shoulder, let alone two of them, with an expanding bullet, weighing under 100gr, that is only producing 1200ft/lbs of energy and expending most of it upon contact.
                No, I don't really care what you think nor is there anything to refute because your "evidence" lacks provenance.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                have you killed anything ever bro? shoulders aren't magic

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >anecdotal nonsense
                "I don't like what I see so I'm going to dismiss everything you say so I can feel better about my cannon"

                >You're not making it through a shoulder, let alone two of them, with an expanding bullet, weighing under 100gr, that is only producing 1200ft/lbs of energy and expending most of it upon contact.
                Stupid preconceived notions aren't an argument. And bullets that penetrate ~13" expend all their "energy" instantly now?

                A .40 cal ball weighing 70 grains traveling at 250 FPS can penetrate a 1" human femur but somehow you can't believe a bullet employed against people, can penetrate a half inch thick deer shoulder blade.

                https://shootingthebull.net/blog/dem-bones-dem-bones/

                Now since you're so desperate to talk to the source, why don't you start with this thread (out of many) and affirm that a 77 gr TMK won't penetrate any shoulders to everyone. I know talking to new people is scary but you're a big boy now, I believe in you.

                https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Are you actually so retarded you think a 77 grain .223 bullet can't go through a shoulder.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yes he is. And it's a common belief if you can believe that.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I'm getting tired of this but I understand special ed kids may need things explained to them slowly and repeatedly

                >like 9 states = most
                >implying you should get your terminal ballistics data from crusty boomers and democrats who don't even know what kinds of different bullets exist
                why should anyone trust you when you believe this drivel

                >The people posting these pics haven't provided proof that these animals were shot with a .223
                Oh yeah, someone just placed a .223 cartridge next to the deer neck wound for no reason. And that picture from leid titled "77GR. TMK Exit" is just a .338 Lapua psyop

                Retard anon, these pics come from 5 different people, there's a lot more where that came from and it's all publicly accessible online. There is no conspiracy by dozen/s of fucking people to disguise large caliber wounds as holes made by a single bullet and cartridge combination in order to trick you. If you're seriously this paranoid or disingenuous then fuck off to 4chan or go to a Ukraine thread where you can find some robot to pay you rubles for acting like that

                >nor provided evidence that these "exit" wounds are actually as stated.
                >apparently one of Dahmer's victims escaped after being injected with hydrochloric acid in the brain

                <- dipshit this is what an entrance wound from a 77 gr JHP looks like, notice the conHispanicuous lack of a 3"+ hole in the surface of the skin

                >based upon some images
                I gel tested it myself, idiot. Gave a couple to a buddy to hunt with and the results were exactly as I expected.

                >but you and I both know why you won't hear about the many failures of low weight, high velocity, small caliber bullets.
                It's weird how I can find detailed reports of suboptimal performance for several other .223 bullets with way fewer kills attributed to them, yet I can't find a single good account of a 77 gr TMK failure even though there are dozens if not hundreds of kills photographed for the internet to see

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It was real in his mind, bro

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Is that actually from a 77 gr TMK? I wouldn't have expected it to blow up a rabbit like that, they usually seem to expand somewhat more slowly.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                No it was ripped in half by this huge hawk, I just thought it would make a good bump. I got to watch it eat for a minute before one of the dogs spooked it.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                i doubt it bro. 77gr tmks usually aren’t too hard on small game from a .223

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I'm surprised they don't with how short the neck is typically.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                That fits the pattern I've seen on small game. Works but nothing particularly out of the ordinary for 5.56 on tiny stuff.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >yet I can't find a single good account of a 77 gr TMK failure even though there are dozens if not hundreds of kills photographed for the internet to see
                It's simple. This single bullet has rendered not only every other bullet design, but in fact every other hunting cartridge obselete. As it guarantees pass throughs on every animal from squirrels to Roosevelt Elk, broadside or Texas heart shot, the ammo manufacters don't want people to know that there is no need any longer for cartridges such as .223, .308, or even .300 Win Mag. All have been eclipsed.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >responds to absolutely nothing else
                Sorry you got called out on your schizoidposting

                >This single bullet has rendered not only every other bullet design, but in fact every other hunting cartridge obselete. As it guarantees pass throughs on every animal from squirrels to Roosevelt Elk, broadside or Texas heart shot
                Butthurt strawmanning. I don't see any ass shots here either, if you want to try to brain elk from anus to amydala with your big manly man .45-70, go ahead. The rest of us will pass on those shots and shed no tears for it.

                >such as .223
                What. One second you're saying .223 can't be used for deer in a majority of states (because ~9 states equals 26, basic math apparently doesn't compute) and now you're saying you can't use it in a .223?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                But hundreds of hours of video evidence of people successfully hunting boar with 5.56, 22lr, and even 17hmr have proved those regulations are and always were bunk.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            and btw in case you couldn't figure this out, that

            https://i.imgur.com/EGogqdf.jpg

            this is so dense that I bet 77 gr TMK wouldn't penetrate it

            >Anon, it destroys more tissue
            yeah it's not going to make a 3" hole in the surface of the skin around the entry wound, those are all exits. I have also seen pictures of entrance wounds from this loading, they're roughly caliber sized

            you see that moose from [...] that probably weighs over 700 lb? they posted aftermath pics too. got penned twice by the same bullet and it kept on going through a rib and the spine, pic in post.

            That elk from [...] also got hit in the shoulder on entry FYI

            >you are only going to post the ones that are successful and not the many that wound a deer until it dies of infection weeks later.
            can't find literally any across the entire internet to post. since you seem pretty confident about this, can you find an example where this happened and it wasn't something retarded like a gut or an ass shot or some pepega 3300 FPS .22-250 loading

            picture is of the moose shoulder blade, which again the bullet had to pass through twice (first the ridge, then the main area) before punching through the rib and spine

            https://i.imgur.com/MpyWV9i.jpg

            Toasted in this bread before, but I just remembered something interesting. The idea of heavy .22 cal bullets for deer is not new.
            Back when smokeless powder was still pretty new, Savage developed the .22 High Power as a low recoiling round for furbearers and deer. The factory load is a 70gr. soft point going 2850fps, very similar to the 77gr. .223 load. Sadly it never took off in America - maybe due to hunting laws. It found a niche in Europe, however, where it is still a popular round for roe deer and fox and renown for it's low recoil and good killing power.
            Pic related, (roe) deer I just took with my .22HP

            nice shot anon

            https://i.imgur.com/kptSRm8.jpg

            I'm what world do you think a .22lr terminal performance is comparable to .223. I know it's easier to say stupid shit than to actually learn about terminal ballistics, but try it. Caliber has almost no bearing on a bullets ability to take game, while bullet construction is huge
            [...]
            Almost all studies saying that there is lead outside of the TC in game meat are conducted and funded by anti-gun and anti-hunting groups. [...] shows this. Those tiny fragments of lead simply don't have the mass to penetrate into the muscle One common x-ray floating around was literally created as an artist's rendition and is completely fictitious. Italy did a study and found the lead level between hunters and wine drinkers was essentially the same.

            technically caliber does have quite a bit to do with effectiveness, a comparable bullet design in .308 for example would do much more damage. It's just that there is easily more difference in performance within those 2 calibers than between them, so a good 5.56 beats a bad 7.62 by a long shot.

            As for the lead I wonder if people are not being sufficiently cautious when processing their game. It's true that a lot of lead fragments are too small to see easily in meat, so you have to be conservative and cut out a larger portion than you think. You also don't want contamination from these bits to get into the rest of your meat so it's probably a good idea to remove all of the leaded mass before you hose out the rest of the carcass

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        and here's yet another deer exit from yet another dude

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Anon, do you really think a 77gr .223 bullet that does

        https://i.imgur.com/qhZN5EW.jpg

        Welcome to fragmenting, mother fuckers

        in gel, is penetrating 1-2 inches? Even a VMAX penetrates more.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I'm wondering how the 8m3 "Effect" 7.62 rounds compare
          Similar terminal effect, different platforms

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It's pretty Hispanicy, but it's velocity dependant. You need 14"+ to ensure expansion.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Collected these after. 12" -10F

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              https://i.imgur.com/PRCJuo3.jpg

              Collected these after. 12" -10F

              Seems like the perfect RPK food

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Can you show a picture or video of deer walking off these varmint rounds?

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >and another

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      you shot a cat?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        this pic was sourced from someone's album of dead deer so I am assuming this is also a deer. ear and head left, body right, wound channel through the neck. fur doesn't look much like I'd expect a bobcat or mountain lion's to be

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          im talking Tabby. bro

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            That’s not a cat of any sort retard

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Welcome to fragmenting, mother fuckers

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I always liked the heavier soft points from Federal for similar wound tracks, and a bit more jacket retention without having to step up to bonded or Black Hills loadings of TMKs. Back before the ammo price jump, you could occasionally find them cheap enough to buy half a case for $300. I guess those days are over now.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous
        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Where find?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I haven't seen it in years, or the matching commercial load of Federal POWERSHOK 64gr either. In fact, all the heavy 5.56/.223 spire point I see now is bonded LE stuff at nearly a $1/rd.

            Feels bad, man.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Big sad. But the Federal stuff performs decently at least?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Their 55gr SP is okay. I wouldn't trust it to make it through both hog shoulders or two shoulder bones without coming apart completely.

                Their bonded shit is pretty good, and unlike Speer, maintains a consistent COAL so you won't end up with as much vertical stringing, if that's important to you.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              god the POWERSHOK in 308 hits like a god damn truck tho

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Eyyeup that's nothing on my 300 win mag sonny! I'm not chasing anything where my rascal can't go!

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The difference is that with the .300 that bigass cavity is about 8" deeper.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >rascal
      this isn't even a good boomer larp, you can't even get onto WMA property around here without a truck. A rascal would break down 50 feet off the road entrance.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >boomer on a high suspension monster rascal

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I'll take two

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Now do it with fmj

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Tfw didn't jump on those factory 2nds the other day because I just paid a huge vet bill
    At least I found some ELD-Ms at my LGS. I don't think I'll get everything around to load them before rifle season starts so I'll probably be using fusions

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >bro just shoot a copper monolithic, please bro. I promise this one isn't one of the worst performing hunting bullets you can buy bro. It's good for the environment, don't you care about those raptors in California that are still dying at the same rate as before.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It's bad for the person eating the meat.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        You don't eat the bullet.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          bullets shed microscopic particles

          Copper poisoning is arguably worse than lead poisoning. Not a good option for hunting. Perfectly fine for two legged assailants, though.

          genetic copper overload (wilson's disease) can be hard to manage. eating too much copper isn't too bad, as the therapies for wilson's disease works a lot better for overdose. lead toxicity is harder to manage and therapies involve more risk.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Wash the meat and cut out the shot bit. Since you seem like you need help I'd also like to personally remind you to wash your hands often.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Lead is still found in cleaned meat, and most families who normally ate game meat shot with lead projectiles were found to have large amounts of lead in their systems. I wish there was a safer way to hunt, but it looks like all “lead-free” projectiles have really shitty ballistics or what-not.
              https://www.ehn.org/amp/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170

              • 2 months ago
                Seasoned well

                Lead in small amounts is fine how much game meat are you really consuming? You aren’t covering your whole house in it so for what it’s worth doesn’t seem like an actual problem.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It is about shot-placement. Lead-free does work.
                Plus lead in the body is treatable.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          But you do tho lol. That's one reason to measure weight retention.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      A copper bullet won't expand if it goes too slow. I always strive for at least 2900-3000fps muzzle velocity with the Barnes bullets and for me they worked very well.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        They will still destroy less tissue than an equivalent bonded/good cup & core bullet at like velocities. With the right bullets such as a .223 shooting 77 gr TMKs, you're getting better wounds than what most people are shooting in full power rifle rounds

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Provided a soft enough bullet you can definetely get some very big wounds with full power rounds. I once blew a hand sized hole in a deer with my .348 Win using bullets made for the .35 Remington sized down.
          I try to shoot bullets that kill well while retaining their weight and thus keeping meat damage down. Never shot TMKs, but I'd be concerned about fragmentation and lead peppering the meat - not because of the poison, but because of my teeth.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Try thinking about it like this. That softer bullet is doing way more damage than you deem acceptable, so you go to a bonded bullet/mono to tone it down. You could also, go down in case capacity and caliber until you achieve what you're looking for and enjoy all the ammo cost and shootability benefits. A 77gr TMK is maximizing the potential of a .223 to the point that many would also consider them too much, to which you could step down to gold dots/fusions which is what I've got at the moment. All the lead stays in the TC so as long as you don't eat the bloodshot meat you'd be okay.

            Now show the copper rounds at not-500 yards from that video
            Or even better, show the absolute disaster of the bonded round

            Did we watch the same shit video? The bonded bullet outperformed the mono at literally every range. I assume you're actually trying to talk about the berger, which did exactly what it's designed to do at every range they shot at, unlike the copper mono.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >"won't penetrate through a shoulder"
          >OPs full of exit wounds
          >pic related, someone shot a moose with this round
          >1st round penetrates ridge of shoulder blade, then penetrates shoulder blade, then penetrates through rib, then breaks spine
          >2nd round penetrates shoulder joint, then a rib, then thoracic cavity, stops in offside rib cage

          https://i.imgur.com/vQaGvWU.jpg

          What length barrel and from how far?

          1st OP pic: 80 yards from 16" barrel
          Shot with dude's hand to scale: 219 yards from 20" barrel
          Deer neck shot: 188 yards, 22.4 inch barrel?
          Moose shot: 168 yards, also a 22.4" barrel I think

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Why dont you use 22lr on elephants then?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              I'm what world do you think a .22lr terminal performance is comparable to .223. I know it's easier to say stupid shit than to actually learn about terminal ballistics, but try it. Caliber has almost no bearing on a bullets ability to take game, while bullet construction is huge

              Lead is still found in cleaned meat, and most families who normally ate game meat shot with lead projectiles were found to have large amounts of lead in their systems. I wish there was a safer way to hunt, but it looks like all “lead-free” projectiles have really shitty ballistics or what-not.
              https://www.ehn.org/amp/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170

              Almost all studies saying that there is lead outside of the TC in game meat are conducted and funded by anti-gun and anti-hunting groups.

              https://i.imgur.com/d0UJutu.jpg

              Try thinking about it like this. That softer bullet is doing way more damage than you deem acceptable, so you go to a bonded bullet/mono to tone it down. You could also, go down in case capacity and caliber until you achieve what you're looking for and enjoy all the ammo cost and shootability benefits. A 77gr TMK is maximizing the potential of a .223 to the point that many would also consider them too much, to which you could step down to gold dots/fusions which is what I've got at the moment. All the lead stays in the TC so as long as you don't eat the bloodshot meat you'd be okay.
              [...]
              Did we watch the same shit video? The bonded bullet outperformed the mono at literally every range. I assume you're actually trying to talk about the berger, which did exactly what it's designed to do at every range they shot at, unlike the copper mono.

              shows this. Those tiny fragments of lead simply don't have the mass to penetrate into the muscle One common x-ray floating around was literally created as an artist's rendition and is completely fictitious. Italy did a study and found the lead level between hunters and wine drinkers was essentially the same.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                lead makes wine taste good af

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Random question but could you fire a 22lr projectile out of a .223 case? I imagine the speed limit would be absolutely insane.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                most 22lr bullets are either unjacketed or have such a shitty jacket they probably wouldn't hold up to the extra velocity and faster twist rates. there are 30-35gr bullets that work pretty well in a .223 though

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Neat

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Thats very impressive

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Copper poisoning is arguably worse than lead poisoning. Not a good option for hunting. Perfectly fine for two legged assailants, though.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Copper poisoning is arguably worse than lead poisoning.
        How though?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Copper poisoning is arguably worse than lead poisoning
        Please post a single case study where there's a patient with copper poisoning that isn't genetic/metabolic in origin but instead due to occupational exposure/hazard

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I saw an episode of House once where a cunt got copper poisoning from the copper pots and pans her woman-monastery used
          seemed legit

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Copper isn't that toxic unless there's a genetic problem with accumulation.

            The lethal dosage of copper is in the order of grams, and most of the cases only causes vomits and pain. Someone would have to boil like half a liter of vinegar for hours in copperware to get poisoning. Unless there's a genetic problem.

            Meanwhile lead is more or less as toxic as copper, copper doesn't causes neurological effects in small amount and definitely it isn't nefarious to childrens, other than induce zinc deficiency.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Based house enjoyer. I’ve binged the entire show twice lol

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        you fucking idiot.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      the raptors are in toronto dunkass

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Now show the copper rounds at not-500 yards from that video
      Or even better, show the absolute disaster of the bonded round

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    High velocity, high energy rounds destroy meat and may not reach the vitals of they strike a shoulder. News at 11.
    Use a 45-70, save yourself some meat.

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    What length barrel and from how far?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      rip mriya 🙁

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        WE CAN REBUILD HER

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Kenosha Kid used .223 55grain varmint

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Kenosha Kid used .223 55grain varmint
      he used an M193 clone from Aguila

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        i.e., he used .223 55grain varmint

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        [...]
        It was .223 55gr fmj
        I need to go back and watch Binger's cross exam again.
        When he was telling the jury hollow points explode in deers and fmj ammo is armor piercing, just *mwah* chefs kiss.

        pretty sure aguila .223 55 gr fmj is correct

        the funny thing is that it's actually pretty weak even by .223 pressure standards and runs like 300 FPS below proper M193 or something

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          ?t=534
          2787 FPS out of a 16"

          ?t=94
          plain ass AE223 is 2925 FPS

          And shitty federal XM193 is 3101 FPS

          So yeah, dat shit piss weak. 2700 is about what I got when I chronoed XM193 out of 10.5" AR myself.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Kenosha Kid used .223 55grain varmint
      he used an M193 clone from Aguila

      It was .223 55gr fmj
      I need to go back and watch Binger's cross exam again.
      When he was telling the jury hollow points explode in deers and fmj ammo is armor piercing, just *mwah* chefs kiss.

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Asshole should learn how to fucking shoot.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      According to the guy who took the shot, the deer turned right as he fired, shot hits at an angle so the exit ended up in a different place than the entrance

      Deer still got deaded in one shot so not much to complain about results wise, meat damage aside

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Do you think every shot happens perfectly perpendicular to yourself or something?

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Anyone got these in stock? Need to compare TMK prices when I can, all I can find so far are the PMC/IWI SMKs and the S&B hollowpoints

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yea, thats an explosive wound. Dude got lucky, imagine if it hit a limb first, then the deer. 5.56 on big game should be illegal

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      that bullet exited with significant remaining velocity hence the bigass hole. it still had plenty of remaining penetration potential. if it was just barely exiting you'd see a small exit wound the size of the expanded bullet itself

      also see

      https://i.imgur.com/Mgnx4HU.jpg

      >"won't penetrate through a shoulder"
      >OPs full of exit wounds
      >pic related, someone shot a moose with this round
      >1st round penetrates ridge of shoulder blade, then penetrates shoulder blade, then penetrates through rib, then breaks spine
      >2nd round penetrates shoulder joint, then a rib, then thoracic cavity, stops in offside rib cage

      [...]
      1st OP pic: 80 yards from 16" barrel
      Shot with dude's hand to scale: 219 yards from 20" barrel
      Deer neck shot: 188 yards, 22.4 inch barrel?
      Moose shot: 168 yards, also a 22.4" barrel I think

      https://i.imgur.com/wXAcRUt.jpg

      >.223 bullet makes 3 inch entrance wound, seems probable
      >"penetrates 1-2 inches doesn't hit any vitals" all the deer are dead
      first picture is an exit. 95% sure pic 2 and pic 3 are also exits

      pic related, offside ribcage exits on a literal elk

      also see [...] and [...]

      [...]
      my bad [...] was supposed to be in response to [...]

      https://i.imgur.com/EGogqdf.jpg

      this is so dense that I bet 77 gr TMK wouldn't penetrate it

      >Anon, it destroys more tissue
      yeah it's not going to make a 3" hole in the surface of the skin around the entry wound, those are all exits. I have also seen pictures of entrance wounds from this loading, they're roughly caliber sized

      you see that moose from [...] that probably weighs over 700 lb? they posted aftermath pics too. got penned twice by the same bullet and it kept on going through a rib and the spine, pic in post.

      That elk from [...] also got hit in the shoulder on entry FYI

      >you are only going to post the ones that are successful and not the many that wound a deer until it dies of infection weeks later.
      can't find literally any across the entire internet to post. since you seem pretty confident about this, can you find an example where this happened and it wasn't something retarded like a gut or an ass shot or some pepega 3300 FPS .22-250 loading

      Why dont you use 22lr on elephants then?

      did I advocate for using 5.56 on moose dumbass? no, I'm posting that because if it goes through so many bones on a fucking moose and an elk it's sure going to work for a deer a fraction of the size.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      That's an exit wound you smoothbrain.

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Toasted in this bread before, but I just remembered something interesting. The idea of heavy .22 cal bullets for deer is not new.
    Back when smokeless powder was still pretty new, Savage developed the .22 High Power as a low recoiling round for furbearers and deer. The factory load is a 70gr. soft point going 2850fps, very similar to the 77gr. .223 load. Sadly it never took off in America - maybe due to hunting laws. It found a niche in Europe, however, where it is still a popular round for roe deer and fox and renown for it's low recoil and good killing power.
    Pic related, (roe) deer I just took with my .22HP

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Passed up on a $900 .22HP takedown from 1911. I had aboyt $1500 to my name at the time. That hurts still.

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    What barrel length and distance?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I know the 2nd pic was at 189 yards, with a 20"ish barrels

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    my dad is going hog hunting in a couple weeks with a mini-14
    what rounds should I get him since he just has m193 right now

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      pretty sure the older mini 14s had a pretty slow twist rate bro. 62gr federal fusions are good if it'll stabilize them

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        yeah, it's one of the first gen ones with the full wood handguard
        those bullets ought to work out of it then right?

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I was gonna say that I don't think 77 gr TMK is a varmint bullet but according to Sierra it is.
    Even still, it's not exactly the same as standard varmint bullets for .223. It's in it's own class.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      From my understanding it was designed to be the most terminally effective .223 bullet that could fit in an AR mag. The gameking is similar but with a thicker jacket. The reason Companies like Sierra and Hornady don't recommend bullets like these for hunting is because many agencies don't allow the use of hunting ammo. The AMAX was originally marketed as a target and hunting bullet, but it became popular among those shooting bipedal mammals, so they dropped the hunting marketing. The ELD-M is nothing more than an AMAX with a better polymer for the tip.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >but it became popular among those shooting bipedal mammals, so they dropped the hunting marketing.
        kek'd thanks for the laugh

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The 77 gr TMK basically isn't a varmint bullet by any practical stretch other than the fact that it technically will kill varmints. Actual varmint bullets are considerably more explosive in small game animals.

      The rumor is that Sierra added the "Not made to expand" disclaimer to avoid upsetting Karens and Hague virgins. Allegedly there were some dudes with connections to Sierra who suggested they should just rename the Tipped Matchking to "Tipped Gameking" and Sierra balked because it would be bad for military advertising and its association with the Matchking name. (EU MoD cucks are so detached from reality that they've even watered down the terminal performance of 5.56 ball.) Ironically the Tipped Gameking line they would go on to later release has less in common with the original Gameking than the TMK does.

      The fact that Black Hills explicitly promoted the improved antipersonnel capability of their loading of the 77 gr TMK, *before* the 77 gr TMK actually ever appeared on the market, certainly suggests that these bullets were designed with terminal ballistics in mind.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      People throw the phrase varmint bullet around but I've yet to actually see evidence of any metal bullet moving faster than Mach two being insufficient for boar or deer. No "moving too fast" or "fragments too much and leaves to shallow a hole" effect I've ever observed or heard of anyone else observing. Seeing as boar don't have caliber requirements in most states someone should take some Mach four 17 caliber varmint meme rounds and blow some holes in a boar to prove the point.

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Weeeee i xan post a pic i saved

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Keep in mind this is a .222 shooting 55gr soft points, so much less effective than a TMK is.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      why's that dude wearing booty shorts?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Kiwis are strange like that.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Proofs? He probably shot it with a 50BMG/20mm and only said he used a .222 to try to revitalize the floundering .224 bullet sales. Clearly just a marketing scheme.

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >yeah bro, this stuff is definitely going through both shoulders of an elk and blowing a baseball size hole out the other side
    Fucking idiots.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/y7qFLS7.jpg

      >straight on through, good thing elk and deer are only 14 inches lmao

      https://i.imgur.com/4gbx45S.jpg

      >yeah dude, punching through both shoulders np frfr no cap real bussin bruh
      Images from randos are not good data, stupid fucking redditors.

      This is some embarrassing copeing and seething my man

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      this mog doesn't realize that lungs are lower density than muscle.

      if you actually research terminal ballistics you will realize that lungs have only a fraction of the density of the muscle tissue that gel replicates, and the roughly equivalent shear strength is irrelevant when the bullet is traveling above 400-600 FPS which a 2700 FPS bullet will be doing for almost its entire wound track.

      Now what are the largest organs in a deer's chest cavity?

      Actual defective.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        How dense is shoulder bone dumbass.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          retard, I just pointed out that a 1" human femur is penetrated by a bullet with 1% of the energy of a 77 gr TMK.

          >anecdotal nonsense
          "I don't like what I see so I'm going to dismiss everything you say so I can feel better about my cannon"

          >You're not making it through a shoulder, let alone two of them, with an expanding bullet, weighing under 100gr, that is only producing 1200ft/lbs of energy and expending most of it upon contact.
          Stupid preconceived notions aren't an argument. And bullets that penetrate ~13" expend all their "energy" instantly now?

          A .40 cal ball weighing 70 grains traveling at 250 FPS can penetrate a 1" human femur but somehow you can't believe a bullet employed against people, can penetrate a half inch thick deer shoulder blade.

          https://shootingthebull.net/blog/dem-bones-dem-bones/

          Now since you're so desperate to talk to the source, why don't you start with this thread (out of many) and affirm that a 77 gr TMK won't penetrate any shoulders to everyone. I know talking to new people is scary but you're a big boy now, I believe in you.

          https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

          (You) (You)

          And the answer is about 30-60% more dense than gel, bet that wasn't what you were expecting huh.
          https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3109/02841867809127938#:~:text=The%20normal%20ranges%20for%20bone,1.35%20g%2Fcm3%20for%20men.
          https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Cortical-bone-density-for-each-species_tbl1_263293527#:~:text=%5B37%5D%20additionally%20observed%20that%20the,Young's%20Modulus%2C%20and%20bending%20stiffness.

          Now using a tentative 2:1 ratio, a half inch thick deer shoulder bone takes about out 8% of a 77 gr TMK's penetration potential, at which point it still has about 12" of muscle or far more in lung to go.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >this mog doesn't realize that lungs are lower density than muscle.
        Jello junkies base their entire worlview on the idea that criminals are 18" thick homogeneous masses of muscle tissue that might be wearing four layers of denim if it's cold out.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          and their penetration standard in ballistics gel is 12"

  21. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >straight on through, good thing elk and deer are only 14 inches lmao

  22. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >yeah dude, punching through both shoulders np frfr no cap real bussin bruh
    Images from randos are not good data, stupid fucking redditors.

  23. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    .308, Now THAT's a real shoulder puncher.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Hmmm. The exact same penetration as a 77gr from a 20”. Yep zero chance at all a 77gr can go through a deer. We all know .308s barely can do anything

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        sUn, it don't have a 3 at the beginning, enuffgh said...

  24. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >military uses 62g made by "engineers" out of 14 inch rifles
    >complains it can't kill for shit beyond it's expected performance and spends more money on some bigger bullet gun.
    >USSOC uses 77g hunting bullet out of 18 inch rifle.
    >makes a DMR rifle out of it

    It really humdingers your hoedowns.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >77g hunting bullet
      target bullet, actually.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous
        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >MATCH
          Target bullet.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Technically SMK is a target bullet. It's decent enough and does good damage when it works but is slightly inconsistent terminally. Still much better than M855 though.

          TMK is an antipersonnel bullet disguised as a target bullet, responsible for most of the kills in this thread. Gets several times the frag range of SMK, shorter neck, and rarely ever icepicks at reasonable velocities since it expands instead of relying on the chance of a yaw.

  25. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >how many shooting angles do you want
    All of them.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >irresponsible retard pumps moose up the butt
      you could have just told us you were a furry 10 comments ago anon, would've saved us all a lot of your cope. no judgement.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I don't like tag soup, something tells me you eat a lot of it due to using insufficient weapons for the purpose.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          do you have a 223 bro? go try it once and report back

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >I don't like tag soup, something tells me you eat a lot of it due to using insufficient weapons for the purpose.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >I don't like tag soup,
          Yet you say you use a rifle that has 11.79" of drop at only 200 yards with the ammo you posted (assuming 100 yard zero). How many sub 200 yard elk shots do you get? Let's look at wind drift. With a 10mph crosswind you'd have 2.5" of drift at 100 yards and 10.75" at 200. Compared to a TMK at just .223 pressures you have only 4" of drop and 3.6" of drift at 200 yards.

          You can adjust for drop pretty easily, but not so much for wind. You are far more likely to have a bad shot because of .45-70 trajectory and drift, and that can't be overcome by extra power compared to a round that's way easier to predict and gets blown around less. Or maybe you do realize this, realize you can't use a proper hold, so you compensate by taking only chest or ass shots and you need a round that can go through lengthwise.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      BTFO worse than Gauge's asshole after a porn shoot

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Because a bullet that's already exiting, absolutely needs to go even further. Genius idea anon.

      Let me just paint a roadmap here for anyone new.

      >smoothbrain walks in knowing nothing saying this bullet won't penetrate a shoulder
      >smoothbrain claims these are entrance wounds and this bullet would only penetrate a couple inches
      >anons point out that you'd have to be a complete fucking moron to think these are entrance wounds
      >anons point out that this bullet is penetrating shoulders
      >of much larger game than deer, too
      >smoothbrain cries muh selection bias
      >anons ask if smoothbrain has any actual evidence, because there is a ton of evidence for this bullet working well
      >smoothbrain cries fake news, says .223 isn't legal
      >anons call out smoothbrain for massive coping and being completely wrong about .223 legality
      >anons point out that there are people talking up this round all over the internet and smoothbrain could easily talk to them himself if it was actually important to him
      >smoothbrain does not at any point acknowledge being incorrect about anything
      >instead posts gel pictures that everyone has already seen
      >after getting hammered, changes position (he is used to that kind of thing) to saying that his fuddy-five seventy will vaporize animals from any point in time-space so that's why .223 is bad
      >anons call out smoothbrain for not understanding the implications of the gel data that was the literal first post
      >smoothbrain cries muh bone
      >anons point out that bone isn't the impenetrable barrier smoothbrain makes it out to be
      >anons point out that trying to shoot animals from any angle is kind of a stupid idea regardless and not what most people are or should be trying to do
      >smoothbrain weeps in a corner, cradling his fuddy-five seventy and consoling himself with the excessive penetration that he can't get in any other area of his life, never realizing the value of girth
      >never understands why everyone's calling him an idiot

  26. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Hey anons I've been in the market for level IV plates lately but after reading this thread I'm wondering if deer shoulders might be a better option. I have a few questions. How many does it take to fill a typical medium PC and what's the best way to arrange them? Is one layer enough or do they need to be stacked? How much weight does it usually save and what's the best way to buy them? I can't find any for sale. Thanks in advance.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Is that a live round with their fucking logo printed on it? Fuck polymer-case ammo.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Your best bet is to capture a "train" a live one. Don't have to deal with the rotting flesh smell. It'll take a bullet for it's master and then you've impervious to AR fire. When you aren't being shot at you get a deer waifu so win win.

  27. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    We still having this argument? God knows how many guys posts successful hunts with 5.56 or even 7.62x39, and old dudes still stay pissy about it.

    That being said, is OP is a Sierra rep trying to parrot a Rokslide thread on 4chins before deer season? Or is just some anon carrying a 50 gallon drum of water because they're grumpy 5.56 still gets maligned as a deer cartridge.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >is OP is a Sierra rep
      i hope he is if it means they'll actually have the fuckers in stock

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >We still having this argument? God knows how many guys posts successful hunts with 5.56 or even 7.62x39, and old dudes still stay pissy about it.
      Is there even a fuddlore so old that it isn't constantly repeated today? I cant think of a single one.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >I can't think of a single piece of Fuddlore that isn't constantly bneing repeated today
        >that isn't constantly being repeated today
        Gee, I wonder why you haven't heard about the totally legit reasons why paper cartridges are superior to metallic ones, or why round nose bullets kill way harder than these newfangled "spitter" bullets

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >round nose bullets kill way harder than these newfangled "spitter" bullets
          i've actually heard that one bro. not just from the 30-30 guys either, i know a couple old dudes who won't shoot anything but round nose 30-06

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            ffs

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I knew an old guy who refused to use scopes. He would only shoot using iron sights. I nodded my head and said, “okay”.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Lots of scopes are shit nowadays to be fair.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Scopes have never been better, cheaper, and more readily available than today. A $150 Bushnell 3-9 is better than the majority of scopes from 30-40 years ago. There are a ton of sub $300 options that are better than what you could get 20 years ago (without spending a lot of money). This is even more true for red dots.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Scopes are certainly cheaper and more readily available. I would question if a lot of them are as good as you could once get. Durability and zero retention at some point became less important than features and glass. you can definitely get relatively cheap durable scopes, but barely anyone does.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Durability and zero retention at some point became less important than features and glass
                No. As long as you don't get $50 chinkshit they are just as sturdy and capable of holding zero as in the past. At a bare minimum it's cheaper to get equal quality. The top end scopes today are better than the past also, although they might cost more. Similar to consumer electronics, scopes have gotten better with better technology and manufacturing.

                Do you have any specific examples of them being better in the past? Or is it "they don't make em like they used to"?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/leupold-ultra-10x-m3a-field-evaluation.279352/
                https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/swfa-ss-6x42mm-mq-field-evaluation.278498/
                vs
                https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/vortex-razor-hd-lht-4-5-22x50mm-field-eval.253013/

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                What exactly are you trying to prove here?That a Leupold is better than a SWFA? Sure.It's also much more expensive. That SWFA is $300. Accounting for inflation back to 1985 if that Leupold was more than $109 it was more expensive. I'd be shocked if it was less than $200 then (probably twice that) and that's $551 today. Also
                >the features and setup with MOA adjustments and mil reticle is certainly outdated today, the glass is usable but not spectacular, and they are very simple.
                Not exactly a glowing review
                >However they work. No scope that leupold makes now is in anyway comparable as a durable and reliable aiming device
                I don't believe that. There are multiple Leupolds that are used on .50 BMGs. How much more durable do you need? From that review he even admitted the glass isn't that good (i.e. better today) and the number of reticle options are far better now.

                For the Vortex, there is some POI shift when dropping it. Is it this one example or across all their scopes? Are you saying that no scopes from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago had POI shifts if they got dropped? Considering other people have done very similar tests and NOT seen that issue it could be an isolated incident. Shit, look at Sage Dynamics and the pistol red dot drop tests. You have some $300 micro red dots being dropped from 6ft onto concrete and holding zero. If those can, why can't a rifle scope?

                I'm not saying EVERY scope today is better. There are older ones that are better than ones today. But if you equalize price and intended use they are better across the board on average. That's not really debatable.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >What exactly are you trying to prove here?That a Leupold is better than a SWFA?
                No, if anything it would be the opposite.
                >I don't believe that. There are multiple Leupolds that are used on .50 BMGs
                you can watch 2 Mark 5s fail here: https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/2x-leupold-mark-5-field-evaluations.278289/
                >For the Vortex, there is some POI shift when dropping it. Is it this one example or across all their scopes
                Across their line they will do that, the gen 2 razors and possibly the gen 3 are better then the rest though. This is true for the vast majority of scopes.
                >you have some $300 micro red dots being dropped from 6ft onto concrete and holding zero. If those can, why can't a rifle scope?
                assuming they are actually holding zero as I've watched him drop an lpvo, with a noticeable shift in zero and say it held, they're being hit with significantly less force since its only a 21ish ounce gun vs a 12 pound rifle.
                >I'm not saying EVERY scope today is better. There are older ones that are better than ones today. But if you equalize price and intended use they are better across the board on average. That's not really debatable.
                Scopes have definitely gotten cheaper, Most of them aren't better though. An SWFA fixed power is cheaper than a weaver k4 was new in 1949 adjusted for inflation and it is better in every possible way aside from weight, but most scopes aren't putting an emphasis on zero retention because people believe they all work correctly when most don't.

                Fragmentation is a non-factor in incapacitation.
                This has been known and accepted for 35 years, stop listing to parroting trash the military put out 50 years ago.

                Proven and accepted by who? Fragmentation can greatly increase tissue destruction and lethality, that isn't up for debate

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Can you find me a real quote about the superiority of paper cartridges to metalic ones? Or are you just making that up.

          I've heard loads of people say pointier bullets do less damage than blunter ones, that's very common.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I (thought I was) just making up both of them, since both of those innovations came about before living memory—my point was that Fuddlore old enough to not be constantly repeated today obviously wouldn't be known to

            >We still having this argument? God knows how many guys posts successful hunts with 5.56 or even 7.62x39, and old dudes still stay pissy about it.
            Is there even a fuddlore so old that it isn't constantly repeated today? I cant think of a single one.

            *because* it's not constantly repeated anymore.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              There could be some record of people saying fuddlore that was no longer around, I just can't think of any examples.

  28. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    So what kind of performance can I expect out of a 12" with this stuff? Less violent fragmentation, has anyone testing fragmentation/expansion threshold?
    Convince me to stop carrying 7.62x39 SP or 8m3 innawoods

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      No. Those 154gr soft points are awesome

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      That's not a 7.62x39 that's a dog.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Out of a 12", bit less fragmentation, bit more penetration. Bullet still expands fairly well in gel at 1650 FPS, minimum expansion threshold is probably in the 1500-1600 FPS range. Wound channel size will be vastly smaller at that point obviously.

      A good 7.62x39 SP will likely do well. Compared to 8m3, I would expect 77 gr TMK to cause similar damage, probably better consistency and certainly range.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous
      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Hispanicy
        I wonder how it compares with mk318

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Better terminal performance than mk318, however it's not barrier blind like the mk318 is.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        That's impressive for such a short barrel

  29. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    If that's the entrance hole that's actually super shit performance.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      How the hell do you think that's the entrance? Do bullets expand in the first 0.1mm?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah idk why people keep saying this, a 77 gr .223 bullet is extremely unlikely to crater a chest cavity on impact. Not to mention there's a literal picture of an actual entrance wound and the corresponding exit wound in this thread, plus the fact that this has been pointed out several times already.

        62gr Barnes work better, and don't fill your meat with micro--lead

        Fragmentation assists in rifle wounding, this is well documented. Avoiding lead contamination is a viable reason to use a copper monolithic, but there is nothing to me that suggests 62 gr TSX produces wider wound channels.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Fragmentation is a non-factor in incapacitation.
          This has been known and accepted for 35 years, stop listing to parroting trash the military put out 50 years ago.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Fragmentation is a non-factor in incapacitation.
            How could it be a non factor? It increases the total wound size and the transfer of energy and momentum.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah ok buddy, this is why nonfragmenting 7n6 and M80 bullets have been demonstrated to cause less damage in flexible tissues than fragmenting 5.56 FMJ and the same M80 rounds that fragment.

            >unironically references BRL P/IH or something

            Which is 1) closer to actually being from 50 years ago 2) was criticized by SMEs for being absolute trash, in a rare moment of sense the FBI decided to drop their related computer man model *checks notes* about 35 years ago. Apparently even Aberdeen got the hint about a decade back.

            >Fragmentation is a non-factor in incapacitation.
            How could it be a non factor? It increases the total wound size and the transfer of energy and momentum.

            Technically I'd suppose it does increase the transfer of energy but it's not really something I track. The more important part is that it reduces tissue resistance to temporary cavitation insult which allows a TSC of equal magnitude to inflict more damage. (Intrinsic to this the fragments themselves do naturally also increase volume a bit by directly crushing tissues, this tends to be secondary to the enhanced temporary cavitation wounding that results from that though.)

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        They're willing to think anything as long as "muh 2 caliber bad"

  30. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    62gr Barnes work better, and don't fill your meat with micro--lead

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