5.56 wounds

why do 5.56's wounds end up worse than even a lot of .308's?
is making such a light bullet go so fast just that good?
why doesn't it work the same for heavy intermediate bullets?

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Basically comes down to bullet design. Look at .303 Mk.VII for instance, it's not fast or small, but the lightweight nose makes it start going violently Initial D as soon as it hits anything.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >why do 5.56's wounds end up worse than even a lot of .308's?
      Explain what you mean by this.

      >is making such a light bullet go so fast just that good?
      The speed is the thing.

      >why doesn't it work the same for heavy intermediate bullets?
      It does, but not as dramatically. The difference between 2800 fps and 3250 fps doesn't sound like a lot but it's huge. Let me put it into context: 165gr .308 Win. makes ~2800 fps and produces ~2600 foot-pounds at the muzzle while 165gr .300 Win Mag makes ~3200 FPS but produces ~3900 foot-pounds at the muzzle. Increasing the velocity of the same bullet by 400 fps tacks on 50% more muzzle energy.

      thank you for the info, like

      Thanks for the breakdown anon. I never knew that the energy difference was that large

      t. mathlet

      i'm not good at math, so the foot pounds explanation legit explains a lot
      on the topic of wounds, i was talking about how many of 5.56's wounds essentially end up as explosions in the body, even without the effects of hydrostatic shock, where many wounds from heavier & sometimes faster rounds end of looking comparable to even a .22lr
      i guess thats just what happens when shit fragments in every direction
      gotta wonder why people bother creating entirely new rounds, when all you need to do is create a new bullet for the same cartridge

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >gotta wonder why people bother creating entirely new rounds, when all you need to do is create a new bullet for the same cartridge
        External ballistics and terminal ballistics. For instance, 5.56 is good at the latter within its range, and really fricking sucks at the former past a couple of hundred yards.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If your velocity don't start with a 3 it's a pistol caliber

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >why do 5.56's wounds end up worse than even a lot of .308's?
    Explain what you mean by this.

    >is making such a light bullet go so fast just that good?
    The speed is the thing.

    >why doesn't it work the same for heavy intermediate bullets?
    It does, but not as dramatically. The difference between 2800 fps and 3250 fps doesn't sound like a lot but it's huge. Let me put it into context: 165gr .308 Win. makes ~2800 fps and produces ~2600 foot-pounds at the muzzle while 165gr .300 Win Mag makes ~3200 FPS but produces ~3900 foot-pounds at the muzzle. Increasing the velocity of the same bullet by 400 fps tacks on 50% more muzzle energy.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Thanks for the breakdown anon. I never knew that the energy difference was that large

      t. mathlet

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The reason energy differences are frick huge is because when you calculate kinetic energy the equation involves squaring the velocity. So if I were to be travelling at 10 metres per second and then accelerate up to 20 metres per second, my kinetic energy didn't double it actually quadruples assuming my mass stayed the same. It's a useful equation for understanding a lot of things.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          5.56 stops faster.
          homosexuals like to pretend "energy dump" isn't real in the world of terminal ballistics, but that's ignoring one of the most basic laws of physics. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the bullet slows, that is a reaction from acting on the body. The shorter its path, the more it is acting on the body.

          Now, you can absolutely make a moderately penetrating light .308 that does the same thing as 5.56 but more, but most .308 rounds are made for hunting or use gay ass M80 ball, which penetrate way more.

          Energy is a simplistic meme. It doesn't hurt to have more, but what truly matters is what you do with it, and expanding and fragmenting is a far more effective use of energy than poking a hole or causing temporary cavities.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >.45 ACP HP expanding to .9in
            >55gr 5.56mm traveling at 3000fps
            Lol. Lmao even.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Yes. Fragmentation beats expansion which beats nothing.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Checked. I wonder what force is causing these boolits to fragment?

                >8" of penetration
                um
                ya

                >5.56mm doesn't have a enough penetration to be lethal.
                Yeah.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The force has little to do with it. The M80 FMJ has more force than the M193 and doesn't fragment. Bullet construction is what causes fragmentation. M193 fragmented because it snapped at the cannelure from a combination of yaw+thin jacket. M855A1 fragmented because the jacket was stripped off hydraulically.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Velocity does not affect fragmentation.
                Yeah...

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >-t. bad faith
                Once you have enough velocity to initiate fragmentation out to the desired distance the rest is superfluous. And if you have a lot more velocity than that in a bullet which doesn't fragment, you'll create a smaller permanent wound cavity than the fragmenting round.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >.t physicist
                Right. Fragmentation occurs at high velocity. Unless you are using a copper solid or something, you will have fragmentation at high velocity using standard metal jackets.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No, you will usually not. Source: 99% of medium caliber FMJ rifle bullets designed before the 556. If you want a specific example try M80 7.62 FMJ.

                M193 fragmented because the jacket was thinner at the cannelure, which combined with the higher velocity and yaw was enough to break it apart. Thicker jackets prevented this.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Right. Because every boolit before that was made for hunting or marksmanship. M193 was made with very specific military requirements in mind. Now, the defensive ammunition market has exploded with terminal effects in mind. Most 7.62 / .308 today still is made for a hunting market or long range marksmanship. And let's not forget the terminal magic that happens to all rounds that impact the body moving above 2000fps.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >8" of penetration
              um
              ya

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I wasn't speaking to the efficacy of increasing energy in terms of ballistics. I was just explaining to that anon why energy increases exponentially rather than in a linear fashion. I don't pretend to know enough about bullets themselves to say why X boolit hurts more than Y boolit. It's obvious that energy alone isn't the sole reason otherwise we'd all be firing teeny tiny little bullets with frick huge cases filled with propellant.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Energy is a simplistic meme. It doesn't hurt to have more, but what truly matters is what you do with it
            That's exactly what I said here?

            5.56 stops faster.
            homosexuals like to pretend "energy dump" isn't real in the world of terminal ballistics, but that's ignoring one of the most basic laws of physics. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the bullet slows, that is a reaction from acting on the body. The shorter its path, the more it is acting on the body.

            Now, you can absolutely make a moderately penetrating light .308 that does the same thing as 5.56 but more, but most .308 rounds are made for hunting or use gay ass M80 ball, which penetrate way more.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Not to nitpick, but you did not factor in bullet weight. Going from 2800 to 3200 fps is about a 30% increase in energy. It’s (3200/2800)^2

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If we only consider FMJ, then yes, speed is king. However, as a civilian you get to use soft points which negates the difference.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Higher speed is going to cause more violent deformation of the bullet regardless of design.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        True, but you can scale penetration and deformation pretty well for all cartridges with different alloys and designs.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Higher speed is going to cause more violent deformation of the bullet regardless of design.

      True, but you can scale penetration and deformation pretty well for all cartridges with different alloys and designs.

      Within reason. As a soldier under Geneva Suggestions you are only allowed FMJ. Armor and Snipers have more options.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >5.56's wounds end up worse than even a lot of .308's
    No.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Is there any proof or evidence or research getting hit by 5.56 is more dangerous than .308 because that doesn't sound right

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nah it’s gotta be anecdotal. I can buy it if MAYBE those devastating wounds alluded to were inflicted at extremely close ranges, since 308 is loaded with higher SD bullets at lower velocities. So if there is some magic contained within like the ~400fps delta, it would be seen at close range only. Beyond that, 308 will catch up in velocity pretty quickly.. But both cartridges are capable of equal SD at equal velocity, so the 308 is really just a scaled up 5.56. The wound should be a scaled up version too, everything else being equal.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah
        Heavier and larger bullet moving at same velocity should cause more damage

        Seemed pretty straightforward to me especially with the injuries i've seen

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          What matters is that the energy that bullet carries actually ends up in the target and not in the dirt behind the target.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It isn't right.

      What OP is ignoring is bullet type/construction. That matters more than caliber.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      There's a lot of all of them. Look at a modern ballistics gel comparison, or Fackler era diagrams, or reports from the Vietnam war.

      556 tends to fragment. FMJ 7.62 doesn't fragment. The difference disappears with softpoints or modern EPR military bullets, but in the 1970s when the military was using M193 in 556 and M80 FMJ in 762, 556 did dramatically more damage. it was exploding into tiny lead shrapnel blizzards while the 7.62 poked holes.

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    it doesn't. next ballisticslet thread, please.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    5.56 stops faster.
    homosexuals like to pretend "energy dump" isn't real in the world of terminal ballistics, but that's ignoring one of the most basic laws of physics. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the bullet slows, that is a reaction from acting on the body. The shorter its path, the more it is acting on the body.

    Now, you can absolutely make a moderately penetrating light .308 that does the same thing as 5.56 but more, but most .308 rounds are made for hunting or use gay ass M80 ball, which penetrate way more.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Now, you can absolutely make a moderately penetrating light .308 that does the same thing as 5.56 but more, but most .308 rounds are made for hunting or use gay ass M80 ball, which penetrate way more.
      the trick is to buy the right hunting ammo. 110 grains at 3300fps is doing the same shtick as m193 but with twice the bullet weight, 35% larger bullet diameter, and twice the kinetic energy.
      shame they discontinued it. I guess people didn't like turning coyotes into paste.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Why boolit do damage?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      How come if I do the same calculation with bullet weight in pounds and velocity in fps, it does not give me actual ft*lbs energy? I’m doing 100gr @3000fps, which is 2000ft*lbs, but it’s giving me 64,000ft*lbs instead

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Are you sure that you're not fricking up the calculation somewhere? You're not accidentally using grams instead of grains or some shit like that?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          No I’m sure. I must have the formula wrong.

          100 grains = 0.01428lbs
          Time 3000 fps squared
          All over 2, is 64,000 and change.

          Should he right around 2000fpe. Curious that it is larger by a power of 2. Did I miss something?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'm a bong so I'm not great at using imperial measurements for scientific equations. Assuming that E=0.5 m X v^2 still works the same with Imperial then your formula is correct and I don't know where the issue is. I would have to convert everything into metric to try and troubleshoot but I'm in a taxi at the moment.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              When I do the same calculation in metric I get the proper joule value. And indeed when I convert that to foot pounds, I get ~2000. So it’s right.

              I’m just curious where I’m going wrong. To get foot pounds I just do grains times fps squared divided by 450,000, but I don’t actually know which conversion units that 450000 represents.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I’m just curious where I’m going wrong.
                Using obsolete units and expecting anyone that knows any math to give a shit about someone that wants to make things hard on themselves for no reason.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Obsolete
                Hasguns units you seething homosexual.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You can't just use different units for that equation. the equation converts specifically kgs and m/s into joules. If you want energy in ft*lbs then you have to use a different equation. I believe the right one for grains and fps is E=(m*v^2)/k where k is a scalar equal to 450435.

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I thought the wounding was basically the same? Getting punched with a high velocity 5.56mm hole vs a high velocity 7.62mm hole. Both are unhealthy.

    Plus they're FMJ so expansion doesn't happen much and overpen is wasted energy.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >FMJ bullets are the only ones that exist
      why do so many morons here think that there is only one bullet construction/bullet weight for a given cartridge
      every time you talk about suppressing pistols people act like 147gr is some unobtanium $1 zillion round
      same for 77gr when talking about AR barrel lengths
      people act like M855 is the only 5.56 round that exists or that 5.56 hollow points don't exist
      have you guys never bought ammo before? I don't get it

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Military uses FMJ is why.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Do you think the wounding is the same? We don’t know what you think.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They are the same only in that both will frick your day up equally and you will probably not survive either.

      But a bullet twice as heavy with twice the frontal area going the same velocity is gonna produce a wound volume (in gel, Atleast, can’t control these things in tissue) twice as big as that of 5.56.

      It’s just that 308 will have more than twice the energy of 5.56 at all ranges, so it retains lethality even out to many hundreds of yards, where 5.56 might not actually frick up someone’s day that bad.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Plus they're FMJ so expansion doesn't happen much
      Expansion no, but tumbling yes.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's not that 5.56 wounds are worse than those of a .308, it's that proportional to the size and mass of the bullet they do more with less, since they have a much higher tendency to tumble and fragment, which creates larger wound channels than would otherwise occur. If a .308 caliber bullet were to tumble in the body the same way (and that does happen semi-frequently, just not as often as 5.56mm), it would create an even more horrific wound.

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    watch this video:

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Excellent video. It's even better because it's by a doctor who doesn't give a frick about guns. He just understands their wounding properties because he's dealt with them and then educated himself on how they work so he could do his job better.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        +1

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Comparison of the terminal ballistics of full metal jacket 7.62-mm M80 (NATO) and 5.56-mm M193 military bullets: a study in ordnance gelatin
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3385379/

    M80 pokes a small hole, flips over, and pokes a small hole.
    M193 flips, snaps, and shreds a large permanent hole two inches in diameter and four inches long before its parts poke several small holes.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous
      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous
  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It doesn't if you compare apples to apples ex:
    >M80a1 to m855a1
    >Copper expanding monos in .308 to 5.56
    >Medium weight retention expanding loads in both calibers
    >High weight retention bonded JSPs in both calibers
    The only time .308 doesn't shit on 5.56 is when you compare apples to oranges, two projectiles that were designed and therefore behave differently, like a round of m80 ball that didn't fragment and a round of m193 that did. Swap that comparison over to one of the thinner skinned m80 designs out there within its frag range(that is a thing btw) and .308 goes right back to shitting all over 5.56. weight, diameter, speed, and most importantly projectile design, all matter.

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Pulling the numbers put of my ass but
    >Smol and fast boolit had 100 kinetic energy
    >Fat and slower boolit has 150 kinetic energy
    >Smol and fast boolit hits the target and tumbles losing 80 kinetic energy inside the target before exiting
    >Fat and slower boolit hits the target without tumbling and loses 60 kinetic energy inside the target before exiting
    >Smol and fast boolit lost more energy into the target than fat and slower boolit

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