>2 more redlines

>2 more redlines
in the words of a smart anon from yesterday
>Clausewitz understood escalation ladders and power dynamics in war and wrote extensively on the means and necessity of restricting power creep in warfare. The West interprets any attempt by Russia to limit the scope of the war as a sign of weakness and continually pushes to violate red lines, despite such escalation harming their own position in the long run. They have a strange invincibility complex, where every action not taken is solely due to perceived weakness. It's as if they started the conflict at the end of the escalation ladder, and any attempt to avoid meeting them there is seen as a weakness on their opponent's part.
>Additionally, Clausewitz understood war as a means of overpowering your opponent and forcing him to recognize your victory, primarily through the destruction of his forces. All efforts in war must be directed toward forcing your enemy to acknowledge your victory by destroying his means to resist. The West seems to think that war works like a map game, where the more territory you control, the more you are winning. The Russians have opted for attritional warfare because it is the most efficient means they have to utterly defeat the material ability of their opponent to resist, and thus force them to acknowledge their defeat. By refusing to understand this and the escalation ladder, the West is turning this into a total war, where the question of Ukrainian nationhood itself becomes open as they force the Russians to go all the way.
>This peace summit and subsequent ones would likewise be seen as laughable by Clausewitz, as he understood that the only way to end a war is by both sides meeting directly to formally end the conflict. For this outcome to be conceivable, the side in the dominant position must be recognized as such, and their concerns accounted for. The losing side must be given some form of concession to save face and ensure lasting peace

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Russians pile at an objective
    Ten thousand die. Ukraine loses 500.
    Ukraine falls back half a kilometer repeat.
    It's about killing Russians not land anon .

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Ten thousand die. Ukraine loses 500.
      your brains on artificial hormones

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Solid argument
        They are all going die
        Just accept it

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Solid argument
          >They are all going to perish
          >They must accept it
          FTFY

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You will all die and it will be good.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Everyone dies. The question is if you're going to die defending your country or going to die so that Monke can have a slice of someone else's pie.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You will all die and it will be good.

      Solid argument
      They are all going die
      Just accept it

      what's the cope going to be when Ukraine loses?
      >well we killed a lot of them.
      you still lost.
      Ukraine will not win.
      Russia will win.

      Why do you hate Russia anyway?
      your country is brown

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Why do you hate Russia anyway?
        Any sane person does.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          if your neighbor "borrows" your lawnmower, tells you that you may retrieve it, then locks you out, yes that is anti-social behavior.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Ukraine recognized Donbas as independent when?
            The more Russians whine about regions having a right to separate the more I think this is just karma for Russia backing the Union in the American Civil War.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              The Union were the good guys.
              The South wasnt bad but they were outdated.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >basing an analogy on a narrative that both Prigozhin and Girkin admitted to being fabricated
            Oh man, you're still in that era huh.

            Anyways, russia signed for total independence, no take backsies.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Then according to Russian law, Russian conscripts can not be deployed to invade Ukraine as Ukraine has not invaded Russian soil but a fully independent 3rd nation.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >russians following their own laws
                Lol
                Lmao even
                They know we know they’re lying

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I, John Smith of Alablyatma oblast, am demoralized. Now all good Americanskis must call on czar Biden to cease arming the Nazi israeli Banderite regime and aid mighty Puccian bear in 2 week, 845 day special needs operation in tiny neighbor with 1/7 the population and no nukes or navy.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Why do you hate Russia anyway?
        For one thing, the Kremlin can't be trusted to keep their word.
        >Picrel from https://x.com/RFEmbassyGr/status/1492560262049800192
        >They didn't even bother to take it down after invading, for frick's sake

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        What's the seethe gonna be when Russia has to humiliatingly retreat from the Donbas and Crimea?
        >at least we bombed Ukraine a bit
        You still lost.
        Russia has already lost.
        Ukraine has already won.
        The outcome is locked in, the only question remaining is how many ziggers will be slaughtered before Russia is forced to acknowledge reality.

        Why are you a contemptible subhuman piece of shit carrying water for the incompetent cleptocratic dictator in the Kremlin and his failed genocidal invasion of Ukraine anyway? Were you born this way or did someone drop you on your head when you were a child?
        Black person.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >abloobloobloo I started a war and they aren't letting me win it

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I think that’s a simplification of it. But we’ve had long cease fire since crimea so it’s obviously over encroaching by the other side I believe it’s something like “Ukraine to join nato, post Russian invasion. Norway and Finland invited to join nato.” Russia is getting china sea done to them now. They turned into a kinda island for war purpose but when it’s over they should keep it that way survival through sanctions during war(proof of self sufficiency) really a waste of resources know it must end diplomatically or “until the last Ukrainian” this obviously is not within the interest of the Ukrainian people also.
      Haven’t even seen too many new weapons yet. All we got were turtle tanks. He needs to like literally waste more resources.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You should ask yourself why so many of Russia's neighbors want to join a defensive alliance and why Russia views preparations for self-defense as aggress.
        Is my neighbor’s door lock and handgun an act of aggression towards me?
        If so, why?

  3. 4 weeks ago
    TZD

    T Z D

    Z

    D

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >This peace summit and subsequent ones would likewise be seen as laughable by Clausewitz, as he understood that the only way to end a war is by both sides meeting directly to formally end the conflict

    Too bad Russia doesn't want this, only makes heavily one-sided ''peace offers'' in bad faith and then blames the other side for not accepting them.

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The Russians have opted for attritional warfare because it is the most efficient means they have to utterly defeat the material ability of their opponent to resist
    Attrition warfare is literally the opposite of anything you can call 'the most efficient'. And the way the russians do it, it's not just 'not efficient', or even unsustainable. This war has already crippled them strategically and who knows what exactly will be the future outcome of killing off your male population.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Imagine winning a quick and crushing victory and capturing the enemies equipment instead of grinding both militaries to dust.
      Westoids will never understand the based and trad Russian way of war.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Imagine winning a quick and crushing victory and capturing the enemies equipment instead of grinding both militaries to dust.
      Westoids will never understand the based and trad Russian way of war.

      Not much has changed ultimately since WWI. Attrition warfare is the right strategy.
      Warfare is only ever trending towards ever more long range engagements and manning a frontline to prevent tactical attacks toward your long range firing positions.
      This is the general trend and it favor attrition.

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Russians are pursuing attrition because simplistic assault screens is all they can manage with a broken officer corps and poorly trained infantry. Further, Clausewitz never fought a war where mass formation was literally impossible due to omnipresent surveillance and range preventing any mass movement.

    Further attrition isnt exactly good for Russia given their post-Soviet demographics, which havent exactly recovered. It may not be good for Ukraine either, but its certainly good for NATO seeing as Russia has had entire elite units wiped out and the Soviet legacy left in shambles and casualties surpassing US deaths in Vietnam (over almost 20 years mind you)... all in exchange for NATO's mid Cold War hand-me-downs.

    Putin can end the war by just walking away. But his ego and regime cant survive that, so he'll just keep sending overworked soviet airframes and t62s and countless men to their graves, and continue to bleed gold to Iran while India and China teach Russia what a monopsony is

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >casualties surpassing US deaths in Vietnam (over almost 20 years mind you)... all in exchange for NATO's mid Cold War hand-me-downs.
      Even if we look at estimates by the most favorable terms towards Russia, they're already looking at four times the fatalities of the US in Vietnam, nearly ten times US fatalities if assuming the whole 500k are fatalities.

      It's fricking wild.

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >despite such escalation harming their own position in the long run
    This where you are wrong, zogger.
    'the West' can only win by ignoring the Rusisan posturing and propaganda. Tthey have lost alll credibility.
    >Clausewitz understood war as a means of overpowering your opponent and forcing him to recognize your victory
    When the Russians run out of vehicles and send their meat waves forward on foot, maybe they will stop. Or not, but mowiing them down until they no longer come is the only option for Ukraine, and for the west it is increbilby cheap to equip Ukraine to do this, and to keep dooing this..
    >For this outcome to be conceivable, the side in the dominant position must be recognized as such, and their concerns accounted for. The losing side must be given some form of concession to save face and ensure lasting peace
    Russia proved throughout history that they are unable or unwilling to recognize their iinferiority.

    They lost Crimea, tehy loost agaisnt japan, tehy lost WW1, tore themselves apart in a Civil War, lost against Poland, failed utterly to ioverwhelm Finland, were on the brink of losing WW2 but got carried tro victory on US trucks, with US fuel, US ammo, US rations, US and British tanks and fighters. And British radios.
    but then tehy decided to just rewrite their own history books, ignore the systemaic failure at all levels for a few decades and pretend tehy totally won everything forever.
    They are incapable of understandiing how dire and hopeless their situation actually is, and how they will literally be raped by China forever.

  8. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I wonder if the Russians will ever figure out that you win attrition warfare by killing, not by dying.

  9. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Clausewitz understood escalation ladders and power dynamics in war and wrote extensively on the means and necessity of restricting power creep in warfare.

    Russia blew past every rung of the escalation ladder in day one. They didn’t slowly creep in with clandestine operations, hybrid warfare and poking around Ukraine the same way they did in 2014. They went straight to massed mechanized orangutan spaz and filling the sky with cruise missiles and cluster bombs.

    This effectively left them with nothing else in the bag to threaten NATO with. They can’t say “stop interfering in Ukraine or we will get the Black Sea fleet involved” or anything like that because they threw all their chips in right in the Great Goodwill Feint.

    “A smart anon” is OP, and OP is either a bunkertroon or a redditor from stupidpol, because the Clausewitz shit about the war in Ukraine gets posted over there periodically.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Man this war really did a number on stupidpol. It was never a great place due to the politics but it seemed pretty sane and had attempts at being honest and realistic. Now it's just /misc/ lite.

  10. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    Yeah, it's funny how 90% vatnik arguments work that way.

  11. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Whoever wrote this is not smart.

    >its as if they
    >seems to think
    >would likewise be seen

    Only someone with a sub 90 IQ would write like this. Interesting that the author also implies that the west is not the dominant side...

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      stylistically it reads like it was written by an actual Russian so yeah.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >West is dominant
      >Ukraine has lost it's entire air force
      >Russia has taken the parts of Ukraine it wanted to take
      >Ukraine failed it's counter offensive
      >All Russia has to do is keep what it's already taken and hit Ukies with stockpiled artillery from the Soviet era.
      >Ukraine now relies entirely on NATO gibs
      >Anon thinks there is just an endless supply of munitions and bodies to throw at Russia forever.
      Ukraine is done and anyone who doesn't realize this is giga coping or legitimately moronic.
      There will never be an escalation to WW3 because it ends in mutually assured destruction.
      Sorry chuddies it's over

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Anon thinks there is just an endless supply of munitions and bodies to throw at Ukraine forever.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Russia has significantly more people and weaponry to throw.
          Now that Russia is much less focused on taking new territory and just maintaining captured territory they have the defender advantage as well.
          I want to know how you think Ukraine is supposed to win this

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Popular uprising from within Russia as Russians get tired of Putin throwing their lives away. Putin puts down the rebellion but it disrupts roads and railways long enough for Ukraine to retake it's pre-2014 borders. Putin tries to raise a 4th army (since the last 2 got destroyed and the 3rd has been pretty badly mauled) but ends up using it just to keep order inside Russia.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            moron, russia is still attacking and still dying and they will run out of out of date equipment in another year or two

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              2 more weeks

              >Ukraine has lost it's entire air force
              not even true and even if it was that's not the West's air force
              >Russia has taken the parts of Ukraine it wanted to take
              post Kherson etc.
              and why does Russia keep launching offensives that go nowhere if they have what they want
              Putin literally set Russia's demands out a few days ago including whole oblasts worth of territory they currently do not control
              >Ukraine failed it's counter offensive
              Russia failed its last five or six major offensives
              also learn to use "its" properly
              >Ukraine now relies entirely on NATO gibs
              Ukraine has captured more armoured vehicles from Russia than they have been given by NATO
              And even if it was true, it's not a problem since NATO is happy to outsource defence
              >Anon thinks there is just an endless supply of munitions and bodies to throw at Russia forever
              and you think Russia can outproduce NATO for some godforsaken reason

              It's over for Ukraine

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You said that last year.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Or 2 more months. Or 2 more years. Or 2 more decades. Doesn't matter. Every day, Ukraine grows stronger. Every day, Russia grows weaker. Time is on Ukraines side. Seethe more about it, subhuman.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Russia has significantly more people and weaponry to throw
            They don't actually. Army data and statistics are utterly frick, so you wouldn't get solid data out of them even if they wanted you to have it. But, russian MIC on the other hand is a bit more clear as it tied into economics, and economics are a fiefdom of russian technorats, who are too fricking autistically dumb to keep their mouth shut. So what you can get from the russian MIC reports is that they have something like half a million workers deficit, and that's something that been only increasing even despite real production capacity peaking last year. So it's not like russia has a pool of 20 mil man it can freely pull from, but rather they have only 20 mil good working age man most of whom already have a damn job, so essentially to mobilize much more man they have to collapse whole system supporting said mobilization.
            Oh, and they also already gutted bigger part of their soviet arms stockpiles, tanks, spgs, apcs, you name it. So by now they have left with less than they lost.
            And
            >Now that Russia is much less focused on taking new territory and just maintaining captured territory
            is just not how russian army works. Either they keep pushing despite insane casualties or their forces get so utterly degraded from continuous pounding that entire frontlines collapse like it was in Kyiv, Kharkiv or Kherson and they get routed all they way to the next natural border. Why else do you think russians kept sending meatwaves in Robotino and having negative K/D even though they were in defense?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Russia has significantly more people and weaponry to throw.
            And Ukraine is killing their people and destroying their weaponry at an even more significant ratio.

            And Ukraine has effectively infinite weaponry to throw, courtesy of being backed by a large supermajority of the worlds economy.

            >Now that Russia is much less focused on taking new territory and just maintaining captured territory
            So if that's the case, why do they keep attacking and getting slaughtered across most of the front? Not that it helps, mind you, given even the "failed" ukrainian offensive last year saw the Ukrainians slaughter ziggers 3-5:1. The defender advantag eis not enough to make up for russian incompetence and increasing russian equipment deterioation.

            >I want to know how you think Ukraine is supposed to win this
            By continuing to slaughter the ziggers lopsidedly. Simple as. The soviet stockpiles are vemptying and Russias industrial capacity remains a wholly insufficient joke. The Russian Army is being bled dry, and there is nothing they or (You) can do to stop it.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              NTA
              >why is the K/D so bad
              to be fair this is because russian doctrine is moronic and has no concept of actually defending currently. it's just 'oh so we charge LESS people at them, and keep them from attacking us that way'

              the ukes merely need to keep it 3.7:1 to bleed out russia as fast as they're bleeding themselves. ualosses.org is the best i've found for them, so 51k dead so far, and russia has a (relatively) confirmed loss of 500k-ish? meaning they're way ahead on that ratio. if the upper estimates of 1.5mil casualties for russia are real, that's even worse. some anons are digging through their disability claim numbers to see if they can figure out how many are crippled, and even that indicates that the ukes are hitting well above their requirements currently. i actually hope that russias losses are not so comically sized as some estimates seem to indicate, because if they are, and nobody has done anything about it, then they're hopeless.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You said that last year. Ukraine is still here.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Ukraine is still here
          With less territory and no conceivable way of winning. Just keep fighting over Donbass for another 10 years then I guess

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            And for the US and NATO, that's acceptable. By the time Russia finally takes Ukraine it'll be so worn down that we could snipe all of Russia's subs and ICBM silos before they have a chance to launch. I mean, Finland and Poland will invade even if they have to do it through a rain of nuclear fire. They REALLY hate Russia.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              This isn't C&C anon.
              The longer this drags on the lower the chances of winning are for NAFO.
              No one is willing to go die in a ditch for drag queen story hour in Ukraine except Ukrainians and I guess some adjacent morons who just want something to do.
              US will never risk going in themselves because the potential for escalation is much too high.
              Expect more train derailments and food processing plant fires to come.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You badly underestimate how much Finland is buthurt over the Winter war and Continuation War as well as how Poland hates Russians so much they prefer the Nazis. Honestly, The US stands nothing to gain from Ukraine winning but as long as the war continues we get to get rid of our old Cold War stockpiles that would need to be disposed of anyway before the explosives go bad. We'd only attack Russia because China might call on them as an ally in case of a China-Russia war. Knocking Russia out makes China a lot more careful.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Lockheed Martin needs those contracts goy

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The US arms industry employs almost a million people and brought in $800 Billion last year. This war in Ukraine has been nothing but profit for the US. Everyone has been donating old stockpiles to Ukraine and replacing them with the finest of US made firepower.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >With less territory and no conceivable way of winning.
            Why do you feel the need to lie like this?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >With less territory and no conceivable way of winning.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Ukraine has lost it's entire air force
        not even true and even if it was that's not the West's air force
        >Russia has taken the parts of Ukraine it wanted to take
        post Kherson etc.
        and why does Russia keep launching offensives that go nowhere if they have what they want
        Putin literally set Russia's demands out a few days ago including whole oblasts worth of territory they currently do not control
        >Ukraine failed it's counter offensive
        Russia failed its last five or six major offensives
        also learn to use "its" properly
        >Ukraine now relies entirely on NATO gibs
        Ukraine has captured more armoured vehicles from Russia than they have been given by NATO
        And even if it was true, it's not a problem since NATO is happy to outsource defence
        >Anon thinks there is just an endless supply of munitions and bodies to throw at Russia forever
        and you think Russia can outproduce NATO for some godforsaken reason

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah, you sound like russian alright. Exactly the level of delusion one would expect from a mf on his third run through grief cycle. Just outright grasping at straws in denial of damned reality.

        Sorry bud but there's exactly zero valid arguments in your post as to why russia would suddenly stop its free fall into abyss and show those pesky pindos and their lapdogs hohols as where crabs go to winter.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Except that Russia controls a considerable amount of Ukraine

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            They control even less amount of Ukraine than they had exactly two years ago. Two years ago, when russia still was much-much stronger and Ukraine considerably weaker. And if I know one thing about how trends work, it's that it doesn't look well for russia, like, at all.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Ukraine has lost it's entire air force
        I thought it was a land war, pidor
        >Russia has taken the parts of Ukraine it wanted to take
        This is a moving of the goalposts. Russia could retreat from Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, and even give up the land bridge to Crimea and still claim they got what they wanted by assimilating Donetsk and Luhansk. Russia clearly attempted to go for Mykolaiv and then skipped past it because they were gunning for Odessa.
        >hit Ukies with stockpiled artillery from the Soviet era
        homie they're buying artillery from the fat man. If you're resorting to Best Korea shells your Soviet stockpile is not looking good.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        All that matters is that Ukraine keeps collecting skulls for the skull throne, and they seem to be doing that just fine. At some point there's nothing left to defend gains with (Avdiivka took 1 killed and several wounder per 15cm of land gain) and that'll be the cue for the ukies to start taking back. In gaming it's called kiting.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Even if all that nonsense was true, how does that impact the West?

        Ukraine was the poorest country in Europe, and not even in the EU, nobody cared about it until they started humiliating Russia with some kit the West found lying around. Even if Russia gets a ceasefire now, not a single NATO/Western solider has died, and what has Russia actually achieved? Some land next to their borders at a substantial cost. It’s not like Russia has taken Alaska or threatened the actual west. And even if the war ends with Russia getting what they want, the long term consequences of that will be the West regretting not giving Ukraine more arms quicker, Russia will continue to be a pariah and the best the daughters of mother Russia will hope for is being a hooker in Dubai or marrying a rich Chinese chap.

        Russia is a laughing stock, everyone sees how their military and society operate and it’s pathetic and embarrassing. Outside of Russian bot farms only lonely virgins, internet nobodies seeking followers on twitter and nu-communists thinks they are a proper country.

  12. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >the West is turning this into a total war, where the question of Ukrainian nationhood itself becomes open as they force the Russians to go all the way.
    Soon mighty puccia will unleash it's true potential! just y-you wait!

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >nu p-pogodi!

  13. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >we are actually winning by forcing Ukraine to continue killing us in droves
    Ah yes the strategy of the great General Wimp Lo
    Can't wait for more successful interceptions, "Su-35 to AMRAAM" style!

  14. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The Russians have opted for attritional warfare
    Actually laugh out loud at this part, remember kiev in 72hrs?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You beat me to it, Anon. The instructions to their own commanders was that everything was predicated on speed, and they were so confident of success they didn't bother with a Plan B (or any red-teaming).

      https://i.imgur.com/UNUnqcI.jpeg

      >2 more redlines
      in the words of a smart anon from yesterday
      >Clausewitz understood escalation ladders and power dynamics in war and wrote extensively on the means and necessity of restricting power creep in warfare. The West interprets any attempt by Russia to limit the scope of the war as a sign of weakness and continually pushes to violate red lines, despite such escalation harming their own position in the long run. They have a strange invincibility complex, where every action not taken is solely due to perceived weakness. It's as if they started the conflict at the end of the escalation ladder, and any attempt to avoid meeting them there is seen as a weakness on their opponent's part.
      >Additionally, Clausewitz understood war as a means of overpowering your opponent and forcing him to recognize your victory, primarily through the destruction of his forces. All efforts in war must be directed toward forcing your enemy to acknowledge your victory by destroying his means to resist. The West seems to think that war works like a map game, where the more territory you control, the more you are winning. The Russians have opted for attritional warfare because it is the most efficient means they have to utterly defeat the material ability of their opponent to resist, and thus force them to acknowledge their defeat. By refusing to understand this and the escalation ladder, the West is turning this into a total war, where the question of Ukrainian nationhood itself becomes open as they force the Russians to go all the way.
      >This peace summit and subsequent ones would likewise be seen as laughable by Clausewitz, as he understood that the only way to end a war is by both sides meeting directly to formally end the conflict. For this outcome to be conceivable, the side in the dominant position must be recognized as such, and their concerns accounted for. The losing side must be given some form of concession to save face and ensure lasting peace

      > The West seems to think that war works like a map game, where the more territory you control, the more you are winning. The Russians have opted for attritional warfare because it is the most efficient means they have to utterly defeat the material ability of their opponent to resist, and thus force them to acknowledge their defeat.
      The cope on display here is delicious: after 2.5 years of vatnik copypasting "Russia is winning because they still control some % of Ukraine lol, the Russian casualties don't matter", the narrative has finally switched: it was always about attritional warfare! Attempting to take Kyiv and then retreating? Goodwill gestures? Getting their shit pushed in in Kharkiv in September 2022? Fleeing Kherson with their tail between their legs? All part of ze plan, cumrag.
      Sounds like the troll farms are prepping the information space for another Russian retreat to me.
      >The losing side must be given some form of concession to save face and ensure lasting peace
      I stand corrected, they're prepping for Putin or his successor whining "b-but you have to give us SOMETHING! C'mon!!!"

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Source of pic?

  15. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Von Clausewitz almost certainly regarded empty threats as counterproductive

  16. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >They have a strange invincibility complex, where every action not taken is solely due to perceived weakness. It's as if they started the conflict at the end of the escalation ladder, and any attempt to avoid meeting them there is seen as a weakness on their opponent's part.
    It's fascinating how every single time they open their mouths, Russians project what they are doing or are planning to do on their enemies

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It is every single time, too. It's wild.

      Xinnie JingPooh is blubbering about the US attempting to “trick him” into invading Taiwan.
      So nah.

      When and where?

  17. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The West interprets any attempt by Russia to limit the scope of the war as a sign of weakness and continually pushes to violate red lines,
    wrong

    the simple fact of the matter is that russia's military continues to prove itself incompetent at the basics of warfare. you don't allow yourself to get involved in trench warfare for years on end when you have overwhelming conventional fire superiority in terms of artillery and aircraft because you want to show everyone how nice and civilized you are. it happens because you didn't actually plan out your campaign. Clausewitz explicitly talks about how you should have your goals and methods defined before getting into a conflict - russia very clearly did not as they have repeatedly changed their rationale for war and their goals from it.

    Occam's Razor the entire war, either russia is playing some 5d chess to make themselves a vassal to China or they fricked up in their planning and preparation and politically cannot simply walk away because they originally defined their goals as essentially making Ukraine a rump state and now they don't have the competency to see that outcome through.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      what's hilarious about this whole thing as i'm fairly certain western planners have probably wargamed out exactly how russia could have won even a year into this, and now are sitting there wondering what the hell happened. no decisions are being made with long-term goals in mind. a general, or putin, wants to see some progress, some captures, so push everything until you find a spot and can run back and claim that bumfrickiev has fallen to russia and will now be russia forever.

  18. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >War is about forcing your will against your opponent
    >Russia fails to do so on Ukraine and abroad with everyone setting up against them
    >Russia fails to achieve the misconstrued European notion of warfare, by not taking land, and the Clausewitz's notion of imposing your will
    >2 years of a shitshow with a ever degrading russian war machine is some 9D chess move to revitalise the Russian Empire
    That some Napoleonic dated copium can I see.

  19. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Anyone can dress up what they say with academicese to sound smart.
    >The West interprets any attempt by Russia to limit the scope of the war as a sign of weakness and continually pushes to violate red lines,

    Russia's only limitation of the scope is nuclear weapons, and Russia itself limited this scope because they are weak relative to Western intervention.

    > The West seems to think that war works like a map game, where the more territory you control, the more you are winning.

    This is what Russia's position was until they began to lose territory.

    Frick you.

  20. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i dont think the russian eternal meat wall can be stopped unless nato put their troops and take the donbass, we will have 3 4 more years of war

    the question is, is china enter the war against usa for taiwan?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That's never happening.
      Most likely
      Indian civil war next

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Xinnie JingPooh is blubbering about the US attempting to “trick him” into invading Taiwan.
      So nah.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      [...]

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Russia is usinig gas weapons anyway, so we should just allow Ukrainee to reetaliate in kind, sorry I mean give them a fertilzeer plant or three so tehy can kep feeding the por children in Africe or wherever.
      That solves the 'meat wave' problem.

  21. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Well Russia started the war at 7/10 on the escalation ladder. Within a year they had commited mass murder on civilians, bombed civilian infrastructure and threatened nuclear war so they are at about 9/10, 10 being nuclear war.

    Ukraine early in the war had not received anything better than manpads, some of their "allies" sent blankets and helmets lol.

    They started fighting with both hands tied behind their backs, and never had an advantage in manpower or equipment.

  22. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No one cares about Ukraine, and the war is a half trillion dollar bonanza. No one wants to see it end.

    They can win against Russia easily, but the art is to string Russia along a long as possible making sure they don't collapse or give up.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      If this is true, it would be the best possible outcome for the US and Europe; Cripple your biggest competitor and antagonist who is constantly committing grey war acts against you, while losing no men and investing in sovereign complex manufacturing, with the added benefit of undermining China.all while losing no people.

      Its basically the New Deal for the MIC, while the US and the West tightens its grip on the free world.

  23. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So you formally acknowledge that Russia is losing?

  24. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The Russians have opted for attritional warfare because it is the most efficient means
    Clausewitz would no joke fricking punch you in the face for uttering a line this stupid and trying to protray him as being in support of it.

  25. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    In War and Peace russian soldiers are described as soulless automatons, funny how that hasn’t changed in 200 years.

  26. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The Russians have opted for attritional warfare because it is the most efficient means they have to utterly defeat the material ability of their opponent to resist
    Nobody "opts" for attritional warfare. It's objectively the worst way to win.
    They fall back on it once all other paths to victory become implausible.

  27. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Russians started this moronic war.
    They cannot achieve objectives.
    They are loosing thousand men a day for no gains.
    So they seethe and mald like moronic little children.

  28. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    tbqh I think at this point any peace treaty, on top of returning Ukraine's territories, must also include returning Karelia to Finland, with the deportation of Russian settlers in the area being paid for by Russia.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >must also include returning Karelia to Finland,
      The sad part about returning communist land conquests is that they are almost always poor shitholes filled with poor vatniks. Karelia, Königsberg, North Korea are the most obvious examples. At this point I don't think their original owners even want them back.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >the deportation of Russian settlers
      Under international law this is considered ethnic cleansing even if you financially compensate the Russians.
      >who cares there Russians
      A big part of the west’s support for Ukraine is reinforcing the current rules based world order. If we arbitrarily decide who these rules do and don’t apply too this blatantly if paints Russia (and by extension China) that they’re right in trying to over turn it to themselves and neutral parties.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >this is considered ethnic cleansing
        They are literally illegal immigrants. Ukraine never stopped issuing visas or other travel/migration documents, and out of thousands upon thousands of pidors only select few actually bothered to oblige the fricking law when moving to occupied territories. There's nothing ethnical or cleansingal there, that's just a propaganda point vatniks no doubts will try to push. In reality they will be deported on sole reason they don't legally belong there, simple as that.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        If removing Russian colonists is illegal then will Russia compensate Ukraine for the ethnic cleansing they committed in order to bring in those settlers?

  29. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >For this outcome to be conceivable, the side in the dominant position must be recognized as such, and their concerns accounted for. The losing side must be given some form of concession to save face and ensure lasting peace
    This is assuming the same leaders stay in power. If putin loses, his regime is over. It doesn't matter what he 'recognizes' or agrees to.

  30. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >any attempt by Russia to limit the scope of the war
    lmfao how? by not firing missiles against building blocks when they run out? or is it by not flying over ukraine because they fear AA? this became a total war day 1, at least for ukraine, russia never had limited objectives but wanted unconditional surrender since the start

    clausewitz believed war was a means to further your nation's interests when diplomacy fails, but what russia is doing in ukraine is the polar opposite of that since they will lose their fighting potential for good and their economy will be comparable to that of an african country after they are done with this mess

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >their economy will be comparable to that of an african country after they are done with this mess
      They seem to be doing pretty well for a country that has been sanctioned up the wazoo for the last few years.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        problem is that % over the past few years is well within the stored wealth funds they have within russia. a war chest that russia is unlikely to be able to recoup from ukraine even in victory. granted this wealth fund would by conservative estimates still last another year to two years at this rate, but the issue is even burning it at this rate doesn't seem to be changing their industry's footing fast enough.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        an economy that is based around refurbishing early cold war shitboxes and producing arty ammo will not fare well in a time of peace, and the reserves will be spent and all exports will be at an all time low so they won't have any money for a reconversion to a civilian economy, it's fricking over for vatBlack folk

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >believing russian state numbers
        LOL.
        >article from before the ruble crashed 50% in a day
        LMAO, even.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >no trust me bro, the extreme volatility you're seeing of the ruble jumping up and down on exchanges is good, just trust me bro, it doesn't mean anything

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They literally just had a bank run a few days ago.
        But I guess the current sanctions aren't enough. So the west will just add more.

        Weimar Germany will look like a first world economy compared to Russia when this is all over.

  31. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The phrase "escalation ladder" was never uttered or written by Clausewitz. It comes from Kahn, and currently we are still at 14 ("limited conventional war"). This is a very small climb from when Russia jumped from 5. to 12. by invading suddenly amidst a show of force, and the participants are explicitly Ukraine and Russia because Kahn is kind of moronic and did a poor job conceptualizing anything other than a new American war.

  32. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Pic of actual expert on a subject
    >Single most unfathomably moronic line of text about said subject you'll read in months
    >With expert's name thrown in a few times because that's supposed to make it make sense

    Many such cases, but more often in "motivational" vids and in Instagram posts.

  33. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  34. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >vatnig quoting the bbc after screeching for 2 (two) years that the daily bong intelligence updates are state funded by the british government
    o i am laffin

  35. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The West interprets any attempt by Russia to limit the scope of the war as a sign of weakness and continually pushes to violate red lines, despite such escalation harming their own position in the long run
    its not an escalation to kill enemy who comes over the border without being cordially invited

  36. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    He operated within the context of Prussia a state which had to play other states off against each other and make deals to survive. Thus they couldn't be too ruthless nor soft.

    Russia is just moronic so it doesn't fit, they can quote him all they want but they have no Clausewitz or Bismark.

    Chinkland's entire ruling class are such buttholes high on their own supply that they managed to alienate all the SEABlack person nations, every single one, in less than a decade. How do you make the IMF look less shitty? Be Chinks apparently. So they aren't applying his political models.

    Globohomosexual is outright against its most(read: only) productive citizens in the form of white men and actively tries to undermine American autarky even if it has failed due to private initiative of those white men both in manufacturing and petroleum geology/engineering; funny how now despite the US having the largest reserves of petroleum and natural gas and being the largest exporter of both as well as 70% of the world's btus of coal "we just can't use it guise seriously, no we can't use fission either'. It's an anti-nationalism at its core to the point that it actively helped Russia and Chinkland so long as they paid lip service to "better behavior" according to globohomosexual standards.

    Poojeets just poo and have an 82 mean IQ. Thus my rhythm proves they will neve achieve anything.

    And a hypothetical white nationalist American Empire would be utterly unstoppable even after a civil war to alter its political structure. It would simply bestrid the world, murdering billions for the crime of being in the way. Essentially war would be a means to destroy politics, ie you don't need to deal with anybody if they are atomized. So once again not really applicable to Clausewitzian politics.

  37. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Just let me steal your toilet wtf, if you understood escalation ladders and power dynamics in war you would just let me have your toilet bro. You are turning this into a total war bro. Why can't you regonize my concern for your toilet bro? I'm not saying I'm pro- or against toilet stealing I make up my own mind, but the moment you mention that maybe not everything is black and white, all the anti-toilet stealing bots show up and attack me, both sides are constantly under propaganda, but you can't even see that, so just let me take the toilet if you were rational, you would see that it's a realistic compromise. Besides I know that you were planning to steal my toillet too, I totally have one, and you would have stolen it if you could, so it's better if a brother takes your toilet than the CIA, just be rational about it and let me have it bro. Why do you care so much anyway? It's only one toilet, are you really willing to go this far just so you can prevent me from taking it, I'm not taking sides btw, just saying that everything is the same, and the toilet is historically mine anyway, so why do you pretend that you are so much better than me?

  38. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The West interprets any attempt by Russia to limit the scope of the war as a sign of weakness
    A bit unclear statement. Are we saying that Russia stuck at the Eastern Ukraine and didn't kick NATO to 1997 borders yet BY CHOICE?

    > and continually pushes to violate red lines, despite such escalation harming their own position in the long run.
    Russian invading Ukraine in 2014 and in 2022 were major escalations on Russian end which were met by West providing Ukraine additional military capabilities like Javelins, MANPADS, HIMARS, intelligence, etc.

    What's wrong with that? Russia escalates, the West tries to match the escalation level.

    > They have a strange invincibility complex, where every action not taken is solely due to perceived weakness.
    Ultimately there is only one way to know. But the USSR / Russia were/are notorious at using bluffing.

    > It's as if they started the conflict at the end of the escalation ladder, and any attempt to avoid meeting them there is seen as a weakness on their opponent's part.
    I don't understand this part at all.

    Overall - good post.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Last part means starting the war with a kick on the door i.e. carpet bombing Kiev out of the map. If the other side don't retaliate in kind, they're pussies.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >carpet bombing Kiev out of the map
        true, russia could just quickly invent phase translocators and disintegrate all of Ukraine off the globe, yet choose not to

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Monke fell for the blitzkrieg meme Stalin fell in the 40s when invading Finland. While having no idea of how to realize it.
          >"Let's do a multi front invasion plan and drop the vdv straight into Kiev, ook"

  39. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i wish there was something written by that Russian general mentioned in War and Peace when a women lamented that they don't have anymore such generals, mentioning that guy, that he never lost a battle

    what was his name again?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Found him

      Aleksandr Suvorov

      was the fourth and last Generalissimo Russian (not including Stalin ). He was one of the few generals in history who never lost a battle. He is famous for his manual of military tactics "The Science of Victory".

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Suvorov
        lost a battle
        He did.

        All of his battles were strictly against vastly inferior opponents. Like haphazard rebellions or turks.

  40. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The losing side must be given some form of concession to save face and ensure lasting peace
    Nope. You lose. You get nothing. Taste the ashes.

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